Republican drive to end social programs UNCONSTITUTIONAL

[Liberty]

sigh...a lot of you need to read some hayek.

 

[Lasher]

What have you ever done to defend liberty, Nancy Boy?

Worn proudly the Uniform of the Armed Forces of the United States Of America.

And YOU?

Army.

Which one, Salvation?

 

[Big Fitz]

I see you ignored everything I wrote except that I disagreed, accurately with your bullshit. Now just realize something. You're messing in my favorite sandbox as a rail fan and history buff.

"AN ACT to aid in the construction of a railroad and telegraph line from the Missouri river to the Pacific ocean, and to secure to the government the use of the same for postal, military, and other purposes."

Read the highlighted section again.

Aid in. not "An act TO CONSTRUCT". That is a critical critical difference. The Union Pacific and Central Pacific were PRIVATE COMPANIES. Not government entities. No government workers. No government bureaucracy outside of the handful tresury employees tasked with payouts and of inspectors that checked the rails and verified length. Most times they didn't even do that but trusted the companies.

The Act granted 10 square miles of public land for every mile laid except where railroads ran through cities and crossed rivers.

That was the original aspect of the grant, which the government then modified to be one square mile of land, alternating on each side of the tracks. This does not make either organization a government entity.

From 1850-1871, the railroads received more than 175 million acres of public land

Still no proof of big government. More like big paydays for contractors. In many ways land was TRADED for services by the US government, and MOST of that land has since reverted back to US ownership or has been long since sold or given away to private individuals during the settling of the west. The railroads then made back their investment by selling plots of land to european immigrants who then came into places that no one normally would. This is not governmental in nature.

The act specified a gauge to be used by the railroads of "four feet eight and one-half inches." A common gauge choice allowed easy transfer of cars between different railroad companies.

And do you know what brought on standard gauge? Read up on the Angola Horror in 1867. Very bad train wreck, directly responsible for the enforced standardization of all railroad equipment. This did not create a bureaucracy or any big government, it gave a much needed safety regulation. Before this, each company could set it's own gauge if not the state.

You have given a lot of noise and fury about this, and it's all false. You've cited accurate statements ABOUT the Transcontinental Railroad, and none of them prove your thesis.

You have passed a big chunk of fail.

 

[Big Fitz]

If you believe that the end justifies the means, then you don't believe in constitutional government." Thomas Sowell

The First U. S. Congress and the first U. S. President didn't believe in constitutional government.

September 25, 1789--

FIRST FEDERAL CONGRESS, In the House of Representatives.

Mr. BOUDINOT (a Representative from the State of New Jersey) said, he could not think of letting the session pass over without offering an opportunity to all citizens of the United States of joining with one voice, in returning to Almighty God their sincere thanks for the many blessings he had poured down upon them. With that view, therefore, he would move the following resolution:

RESOLVED, That a joint committee of both Houses be directed to wait upon the President of the United States, to request that he would recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging, with grateful hearts, that many signal favors of almighty God, especially by affording them the opportunity peaceably to establish a Constitution of government for their safety and happiness.

Mr. BURKE, a Representative from South Carolina said he did not like this mimicking of European customs, where they make a mere mockery of thanksgivings. Two parties at war frequently sung TE DEUM for the same event though for one it was a victory, and to the other a defeat.

Mr. TUCKER, a Representative from the State of South Carolina, thought the House had no business to interfere in a matter which did not concern them. Why should the president direct the people to do what, perhaps, they have no mind to do? They may not be inclined to return thanks for a constitution until they have experienced that it promotes their safety and happiness. We do not yet know but they may have reason to be dissatisfied with the effects it has already produced; BUT WHETHER THIS BE SO OR NOT, IT IS A BUSINESS WITH WHICH CONGRESS HAVE NOTHING TO DO, IT IS A RELIGIOUS MATTER, AND, AS SUCH IS PROSCRIBED TO US. [Emphasis added]. If a day of thanksgiving must take place, let it be done by the authority of the several states; they know best what reason their constituents have to be with the establishment of this Constitution.

Mr. SHERMAN justified the practice of thanksgiving, on any signal event, not only as a laudable one in itself, but as warranted by a number of precedents in HOLY WRIT: for instance the solemn thanksgivings and rejoicings which took place in the time of Solomon, after the building of the temple, was a case in point. This example he thought, worthy of Christian imitation on the present occasion; and he would agree with the gentleman who moved the resolution.

Mr. BOUDINOT quoted further precedents from the practice of the late Congress; and hoped the motion would meet a ready acquiescence. The question was not put on the resolution, and was carried in the affirmative: and Messers. Boudinot, Sherman, and Sylvester, were appointed a committee on the part of the House.

Source of information:

The Debates and Proceedings in the Congress of the United States (Annals of Congress) September 25, 1789, Vol. I, Joseph Gales, published by Gales and Seaton, Washington, 1834, pp 914-15)​

Other than proving you're an idiot what is this intended to prove about ends justifying the means?

Thomas Sowell is right, and that's why I use him in my sig line.

 

[Big Fitz]

I know, dude. Free enterprise capitalism failed to provide a railroad.

No. You are misconstruing my words, deliberately too I suspect.

The plans for a Transcontinental railroad were in the works with or without public money. Ted Judah was just the first. The need was there, the interest was there, but like big business today, first you had to get the legislative barriers out of the way. It was government land and territory. They needed permission to build first. Then they realized that there was little money to be made up front, so they sought backers, and got them. The big four of the CP for instance. But then they needed to essentially get loans. No bank would take the risk at this time so they went to government. And then they got the pot sweetened. Government got it to happen FASTER.

Now, let's assume that government didn't get involved. The railroad STILL would have been built. Why? Because there was public desire for one. It would have been built differently or by piecemeal, but it would have been built. Dictators always get things done quickly... republics take time... the free market waits for profit to be obvious to those with capital, and then it happens fastest of all.

You had too much profit to be made. Now, after the first transcontinental railroad, you had up to 4 others happen VERY rapidly, once it was known it could be done. New Orleans to Los Angeles, Minneapolis to Seattle, Ottowa to Vancouver. Why did they happen so fast afterwards with almost no government involvement? The pioneer Cedar Rapids to San Francisco route was done proving it is profitable. Not to mention the fact that the government was giving away freebies. Just like Cash for Clunkers or the housing credit helped drive car and house sales recently, people were cashing in on government stupidity of overpaying.

Once again, you fail to prove your thesis.

 

[editec]

You support nation building I see?

the canal zone was US territory.

That's the payment the Panamanians paid us to help them declare their independence from Colombia.

Is that nation building or nation destroying?

Depends on how you look at it, I suppose.

So Panama wasn't a country? it was a Territory

Panama was originally part of Colombia.

With much help from American gunboat diplomacy that nation gained its independence from Colombia.

In return for our help the area formerly known as the Panama Canal Zone was leased to the USA for 99 years (maybe a hundred, I'm not certain).

That land was essantially treated as an American territory for the century we leased it from Panama.

When we finally gave that land back to Panama, we were honoring the terms of the lease.

It was a symbiotic relationship where we and the Panamanians mutually agreed to screw Colombia.

They got a nation, we got to build and control the canal (and canal zone) and Colombia got the shaft.

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

He needs to be aduited, because your brother did not do something right.

Wrong. He couldn't believe it and triple checked it before having a tax service look at it too.

It blows my mind, years ago I realized this crap happens while in the car business seeing people who worked just long enough each year to get a W-2 and get back MUCH MORE than they put in due to all the credits that government gives out.

What credits?

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

No it did not.

It was Big Government that got the Big Railroad Built
​

The Pacific Railway Act of 1862, Officially entitled "AN ACT to aid in the construction of a railroad and telegraph line from the Missouri river to the Pacific ocean, and to secure to the government the use of the same for postal, military, and other purposes."

The Act authorized both the making of extensive land grants in the Western United States, and the issuance of 30-year, 6% U.S. Government Bonds, to the Union Pacific Railroad and Central Pacific Railroad companies in order to construct a transcontinental railroad.

The Act granted 10 square miles of public land for every mile laid except where railroads ran through cities and crossed rivers. The Bonds were issued at the rate of $16,000 per mile of tracked grade completed West of the designated base of the Sierra Nevada Mountains and East of the designated base of the Rocky Mountains.

From 1850-1871, the railroads received more than 175 million acres of public land - an area more than one tenth of the whole United States and larger than Texas.

The act specified a gauge to be used by the railroads of "four feet eight and one-half inches." A common gauge choice allowed easy transfer of cars between different railroad companies.

I said this earlier land grants does not make a government controlled railroad.

It took a big government to grant big amounts of land to get the big railroad built for the general welfare of a big nation.

 

[Oddball]

It took a big government to grant big amounts of land to get the big railroad built for the general welfare of a big nation.

IOW, it took the centralized federal monopoly on the use of force, to create railroad rights-of-way, as the principal enabler of the creation of railroad monopolies.

Good thing we could finally cut to the nut of the matter.

 

[The T]

the canal zone was US territory.

That's the payment the Panamanians paid us to help them declare their independence from Colombia.

Is that nation building or nation destroying?

Depends on how you look at it, I suppose.

So Panama wasn't a country? it was a Territory

Panama was originally part of Colombia.

With much help from American gunboat diplomacy that nation gained its independence from Colombia.

In return for our help the area formerly known as the Panama Canal Zone was leased to the USA for 99 years (maybe a hundred, I'm not certain).

That land was essantially treated as an American territory for the century we leased it from Panama.

When we finally gave that land back to Panama, we were honoring the terms of the lease.

It was a symbiotic relationship where we and the Panamanians mutually agreed to screw Colombia.

They got a nation, we got to build and control the canal (and canal zone) and Colombia got the shaft.

And whom ostensively runs the show down there NOW thanks to Jimmah Catah?

Hint:? They OWN alot of our DEBT.

 

[johnrocks]

Wrong. He couldn't believe it and triple checked it before having a tax service look at it too.

It blows my mind, years ago I realized this crap happens while in the car business seeing people who worked just long enough each year to get a W-2 and get back MUCH MORE than they put in due to all the credits that government gives out.

What credits?

Tax credits

 

[The T]

It blows my mind, years ago I realized this crap happens while in the car business seeing people who worked just long enough each year to get a W-2 and get back MUCH MORE than they put in due to all the credits that government gives out.

What credits?

Tax credits

They have eyes but cannot see...

 

[The T]

It was Big Government that got the Big Railroad Built​

The Pacific Railway Act of 1862, Officially entitled "AN ACT to aid in the construction of a railroad and telegraph line from the Missouri river to the Pacific ocean, and to secure to the government the use of the same for postal, military, and other purposes."

The Act authorized both the making of extensive land grants in the Western United States, and the issuance of 30-year, 6% U.S. Government Bonds, to the Union Pacific Railroad and Central Pacific Railroad companies in order to construct a transcontinental railroad.

The Act granted 10 square miles of public land for every mile laid except where railroads ran through cities and crossed rivers. The Bonds were issued at the rate of $16,000 per mile of tracked grade completed West of the designated base of the Sierra Nevada Mountains and East of the designated base of the Rocky Mountains.

From 1850-1871, the railroads received more than 175 million acres of public land - an area more than one tenth of the whole United States and larger than Texas.

The act specified a gauge to be used by the railroads of "four feet eight and one-half inches." A common gauge choice allowed easy transfer of cars between different railroad companies.

I said this earlier land grants does not make a government controlled railroad.

It took a big government to grant big amounts of land to get the big railroad built for the general welfare of a big nation.

That's because there were problems with the land use rights dipshit. it's something Government HAD to do...to get that project going to bolster commerce from both coasts.

It was Government LAND to start with. Doesn't mean it's a REASON for Big Government as it exists today.

The only reason You laud Government is for the controlling aspect of it in every portion of the lives of the people where it doesn't belong.

The people are Revolting against it...and this has your nutz in a bunch.

Too bad.

 

[Annie]

I said this earlier land grants does not make a government controlled railroad.

It took a big government to grant big amounts of land to get the big railroad built for the general welfare of a big nation.

That's because there were problems with the land use rights dipshit. it's something Government HAD to do...to get that project going to bolster commerce from both coasts.

It was Government LAND to start with. Doesn't mean it's a REASON for Big Government as it exists today.

The only reason You laud Government is for the controlling aspect of it in every portion of the lives of the people where it doesn't belong.

The people are Revolting against it...and this has your nutz in a bunch.

Too bad.

Indeed. Trans-states. No one I know has suggested that air traffic control should be the states purview.

 

[Oddball]

Indeed. Trans-states. No one I know has suggested that air traffic control should be the states purview.

Should be privatized, though.

Canada --yes CANADA-- has done so and delays are next to unheard of.

 

[The T]

It took a big government to grant big amounts of land to get the big railroad built for the general welfare of a big nation.

That's because there were problems with the land use rights dipshit. it's something Government HAD to do...to get that project going to bolster commerce from both coasts.

It was Government LAND to start with. Doesn't mean it's a REASON for Big Government as it exists today.

The only reason You laud Government is for the controlling aspect of it in every portion of the lives of the people where it doesn't belong.

The people are Revolting against it...and this has your nutz in a bunch.

Too bad.

Indeed. Trans-states. No one I know has suggested that air traffic control should be the states purview.

Nor should it. Good point.

 

[The T]

Indeed. Trans-states. No one I know has suggested that air traffic control should be the states purview.

Should be privatized, though.

Canada --yes CANADA-- has done so and delays are next to unheard of.

it is said that you learn something new every day. This is one of those times.

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

There is nothing in the Constitution that authorizes the government to rob the citizenry of their rightful property for the benefit of other individuals' personal upkeep.

There is no U. S. statute that authorizes the government to rob the citizenry of their rightful property for the benefit of other individuals' personal upkeep.

If you want to live in a country where the government has that kind of power, move to Cuba, North Korea, or any of a multitude of other failing, stinking, backwater, socialist countries where you will have to stand in line for everything you need.

I like the American brand of socialism.

America is down to the level of some primitive, diseased, tribal African country that can't go over a year without some sort of revolution to see what faction will rule over the simple morons who were unfortunate enough to be born in such a slop-trough.

I love America, because I was able to accumulate enormous wealth.

Keep it up and we will all be denizens of your communist utopia.

If you say so.

"general welfare," means "good of everyone, meaning services such as fire protection, roads, police, parks, military, etc"

What rule of construction did you abuse to arrive at that interpretation?

individuals who are too lazy and incompetent to care for themselves, like the life-long and generational welfare parasites

The is no U. S. Statute that provides for individuals who are too lazy and incompetent to care for themselves.

the life-long and generational welfare parasites

You sound like you're jealous of the life-long and generational welfare parasites because they have more wealth than you do.

 

[Micky G. Jagger]

Micky, why do you trust government so much?

Because, government is more trustworthy than big corporations.

 

[The T]

Micky, why do you trust government so much?

Because, government is more trustworthy than big corporations.

You're either an atagonist...or stupid...or BOTH. Which is it?