Republicans offer fraudulent tax reform, the alleged FairTax

[Biff_Poindexter]

No wonder Republicans in the House are more focused on performance investigations and clownish theater -- their actual policies suck....even their own base voters think this tax plan is bullshit....

Whelp, I think it's time to investigate the Biden family dogs....I am sure they are responsible for some child rapes or drug traffcking, money laundering, something...

 

[johnwk]

Once a sales tax gets near 10%, people start going through extraordinary measures to evade it.

30%? Half of the economy would go underground.

You are absolutely correct!
See the “Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990” laying a specific amount of tax on a number of specifically chosen articles considered to be luxury:


PART III--TAXES ON LUXURY ITEMS
SEC. 11221. TAXES ON LUXURY ITEMS.

“`SEC. 4001. PASSENGER VEHICLES.

`(a) IMPOSITION OF TAX- There is hereby imposed on the 1st retail sale of any passenger vehicle a tax equal to 10 percent of the price for which so sold to the extent such price exceeds $30,000.

`SEC. 4002. BOATS.

`(a) IMPOSITION OF TAX- There is hereby imposed on the 1st retail sale of any boat a tax equal to 10 percent of the price for which so sold to the extent such price exceeds $100,000.

`SEC. 4003. AIRCRAFT.

`(a) IMPOSITION OF TAX- There is hereby imposed on the 1st retail sale of any aircraft a tax equal to 10 percent of the price for which so sold to the extent such price exceeds $250,000.

`SEC. 4006. JEWELRY.

`(a) IMPOSITION OF TAX- There is hereby imposed on the 1st retail sale of any jewelry a tax equal to 10 percent of the price for which so sold to the extent such price exceeds $10,000.

`SEC. 4007. FURS.

`(a) IMPOSITION OF TAX- There is hereby imposed on the 1st retail sale of any furs a tax equal to 10 percent of the price for which so sold to the extent such price exceeds $10,000

.
In fact, the marketplace responded to the outrageous 10% tax, People refused to purchase the articles selected; the affected industries began to feel the consequences and the marketplace rejection of the tax led to its immediate repeal! See:1991 legislation to repeal the luxury excise tax on boats. Had the tax been 1 or 2 percent I suspect the impact on the purchase of the listed articles and industries affected would not have been disastrous and revenue would have been collected!

In this case, Hamilton’s prediction in the Federalist Papers is shown to have merit! Hamilton stresses in Federalist No 21 regarding taxes on articles of consumption:


It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles of consumption that they contain in their own nature a security against excess. They prescribe their own limit; which cannot be exceeded without defeating the end proposed, that is, an extension of the revenue. When applied to this object, the saying is as just as it is witty, that, "in political arithmetic, two and two do not always make four.'' If duties are too high, they lessen the consumption; the collection is eluded; and the product to the treasury is not so great as when they are confined within proper and moderate bounds. This forms a complete barrier against any material oppression of the citizens by taxes of this class, and is itself a natural limitation of the power of imposing them.”


.

 

[BlindBoo]

Why progressive? I’m not into hitting the successful with higher rates. I’m fine with no deductions, loopholes, credits, but punishing the successful with higher rates reeks of Marxist wealth redistribution to me. Truth be told, I’d really prefer a flat fee, not a flat rate. We all exist under the exact same governance, why shouldn’t we all pay the exact same amount?

There is no Marxist wealth redistribution going on in the progressive income tax scale. No one is confiscating the plantation an dividing the land amongst the peasants. Taking less from those who can least afford it makes sure most those dollars go back into the economy as purchases of the good and services that the working class help provide, not wealth generation. Which produces more profits for our capitalist engine. Isn't that what we learned from Henry Ford's model? The working poor are already saddled with flat taxes such as sales tax, SS, Medicare where we all pay the same percent (up to the limit). Registration fees, toll road fees, licensing fees are all hidden flat taxes that we all pay the same rate on.

 

[johnwk]

Yep, there is a movement for a Constitutional Convention of States. If 38 states pass a Constitutional Amendment it's done.

Convention of States Action

Article V offers the only constitutional solution as big as the problem. Together, we can end federal overreach.

conventionofstates.com

.
Which is a very, very dangerous and bad idea. I agree with James Madison regarding the convening of a second convention under Article 5


”… an election into it would be courted by the most violent partizans on both sides; it wd. probably consist of the most heterogeneous characters; would be the very focus of that flame which has already too much heated men of all parties; would no doubt contain individuals of insidious views, who under the mask of seeking alterations popular in some parts but inadmissible in other parts of the Union might have a dangerous opportunity of sapping the very foundations of the fabric.” See: From James Madison to George Lee Turberville, 2 November 1788

JWK

Chief Justice, Warren Burger, stated in 1988, “I have also repeatedly given my opinion that there is no effective way to limit or muzzle the actions of a Constitutional Convention. The Convention could make its own rules and set its own agenda. Congress might try to limit the Convention to one amendment or to one issue, but there is no way to assure that the Convention would obey. After a Convention is convened, it will be too late to stop the Convention if we don’t like the agenda. The meeting in 1787 ignored the limit placed by the Confederation Congress ‘for the sole and express purpose.’ “

 

[francoHFW]

And you think it's right that when people create wealth, it should be taken from them to support Democrat vote buying and pork?

"When people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of our Republic.
Benjamin Franklin



Yes, federal income tax because it's the only tax that supports everything we have today. SS payroll deductions only support Social Security. Medicare payroll deductions only support Medicare. FICA supports Social Security and our disability program. None of your payroll taxes support the federal government.

And even if you consider all these other taxes, if you live the average lifespan in the US, you not only get all of that back, but more in return, so it's not really a tax at all. It's more like a savings account the government manages.

You are not rich or poor because of government, you are rich or poor based on your decisions in life.

Yes yes, it is no problem having the most expensive college and training in the modern world by far and I'm sure that has no effect lol...

 

[22lcidw]

Tax the rich again and invest in America again for crying out loud. I'm talking cheap college and training and good infrastructure, like every other modern country for crying out loud lol

Just to say to you. There are many people who drive 50, 60, 70 miles or so to work or more. I know. I did not understand it after I left the city. So massive taxes on driving for any reason will hurt. Guaranteed.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Yes yes, it is no problem having the most expensive college and training in the modern world by far and I'm sure that has no effect lol...

Welcome to liberalism. Over charge people and when they have trouble paying for it, send the bill to somebody else. Now you know why we don't want your leadership in this country. That's a leftists way of solving a problem.

 

[francoHFW]

Just to say to you. There are many people who drive 50, 60, 70 miles or so to work or more. I know. I did not understand it after I left the city. So massive taxes on driving for any reason will hurt. Guaranteed.

President Biden and Democrats aren't talking about raising any taxes on regular people, they talk about tax cuts for them for a change. And of course a living wage healthcare daycare paid parental leave cheap college and training great infrastructure and vacations ID card to end illegal immigration and mainly taxing the bloated rich- like every other modern country for crying out loud. Trickle down is pure garbage just like all their propaganda.....

 

[francoHFW]

Welcome to liberalism. Over charge people and when they have trouble paying for it, send the bill to somebody else. Now you know why we don't want your leadership in this country. That's a leftists way of solving a problem.

If we had cheap college and training, you could go back to school and figure out how wrong and brainwashed you are. You are the perfect chump of the greedy idiot rich who are laughing all the way to the bank the last 40 years now.... it's called tax the rich again and invest in America and Americans again and stop the destruction of our country by your lying scumbag heroes.....

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No wonder Republicans in the House are more focused on performance investigations and clownish theater -- their actual policies suck....even their own base voters think this tax plan is bullshit....

Whelp, I think it's time to investigate the Biden family dogs....I am sure they are responsible for some child rapes or drug traffcking, money laundering, something...

Did the dogs illegally take classified documents too?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

If we had cheap college and training, you could go back to school and figure out how wrong and brainwashed you are. You are the perfect chump of the greedy idiot rich who are laughing all the way to the bank the last 40 years now.... it's called tax the rich again and invest in America and Americans again and stop the destruction of our country by your lying scumbag heroes.....

Otherwise known as theft.

I don't have an indoor swimming pool. Do you know why? I can't afford an indoor swimming pool.

I don't have a heated driveway so I don't have to snow blow it in the winter. Do you know why I don't have a heated driveway? I can't afford a heated driveway.

I don't have a limousine and driver in my driveway either. Do you know why I don't have a limousine? Because I can't afford one

If you can't afford to go to college, do what the rest of us do, get a job. Maybe invest in a trade school which will be much, much cheaper and you can get out in the workforce much, much sooner.

But government (taxpayers) should not be funding college just because you don't want to do any real work or get your hands dirty.

 

[Orangecat]

There is no Marxist wealth redistribution going on in the progressive income tax scale.

As long as welfare exists, there is.
From those with means, to those with needs.
If you take more from some and are spending to subsidize those with needs, that is indeed marxist wealth redistribution.

 

[Orangecat]

Yes yes, it is no problem having the most expensive college and training in the modern world by far and I'm sure that has no effect lol...

You do realize that colleges set their tuition fees, right? One of the main reasons they're so high is the government giving out loans to just about anyone.

 

[Orangecat]

President Biden and Democrats aren't talking about raising any taxes on regular people,

Only on irregular people? Who decides who's regular and who's not?

 

[BlindBoo]

As long as welfare exists, there is.
From those with means, to those with needs.
If you take more from some and are spending to subsidize those with needs, that is indeed marxist wealth redistribution.

ESSAYS

Welfare for the Well-Off: How Business Subsidies Fleece Taxpayers​

Federal subsidies to U.S. businesses now cost American taxpayers nearly $100 billion a year. If all corporate welfare programs were eliminated, Congress would have enough money to entirely eliminate the capital gains tax and the death tax. Alternatively, Congress could cut the personal and corporate income tax by 10 percent across the board. Either of these alternatives would do far more to enhance the competitiveness of U.S. industry than the current industrial policy approach of trying to help American companies one at a time.
Federal subsidies to corporate America take many forms: direct grant payments, below-market insurance, direct loans and loan guarantees, trade protection, contracts for unneeded activities, and unjustified special interest loopholes in the tax code. Despite their promises to downsize government, congressional Republicans have retreated from any serious attempt to reduce business subsidies. The Clinton administration has routinely requested budgetary increases for corporate handouts, including the Export Import Bank, the Overseas Private Investment Corporation, and the Commerce Department's Advanced Technology Program.

Welfare for the Well-Off: How Business Subsidies Fleece Taxpayers

Federal subsidies to U.S. businesses now cost American taxpayers nearly $100 billion a year. If all corporate welfare programs were eliminated, Congress would have enough money to entirely eliminate the capital gains tax and the death tax. Alternatively, Congress could cut the personal and...

www.hoover.org

This study refutes common myths about corporate welfare programs: that they create jobs and promote growth; that they =`level the playing field=' with our foreign competitors; that they help small businesses; and that the payments are provided without regard to political considerations. The main effects of industrial policy programs are to undermine the free enterprise system and corrupt the political system. Congress should get businesses off the dole and use the savings to cut taxes, reduce the national debt or both.
Saturday, May 1, 1999 31 min read

 

[Orangecat]

ESSAYS

Welfare for the Well-Off: How Business Subsidies Fleece Taxpayers​

Federal subsidies to U.S. businesses now cost American taxpayers nearly $100 billion a year. If all corporate welfare programs were eliminated, Congress would have enough money to entirely eliminate the capital gains tax and the death tax. Alternatively, Congress could cut the personal and corporate income tax by 10 percent across the board. Either of these alternatives would do far more to enhance the competitiveness of U.S. industry than the current industrial policy approach of trying to help American companies one at a time.
Federal subsidies to corporate America take many forms: direct grant payments, below-market insurance, direct loans and loan guarantees, trade protection, contracts for unneeded activities, and unjustified special interest loopholes in the tax code. Despite their promises to downsize government, congressional Republicans have retreated from any serious attempt to reduce business subsidies. The Clinton administration has routinely requested budgetary increases for corporate handouts, including the Export Import Bank, the Overseas Private Investment Corporation, and the Commerce Department's Advanced Technology Program.

Welfare for the Well-Off: How Business Subsidies Fleece Taxpayers

Federal subsidies to U.S. businesses now cost American taxpayers nearly $100 billion a year. If all corporate welfare programs were eliminated, Congress would have enough money to entirely eliminate the capital gains tax and the death tax. Alternatively, Congress could cut the personal and...

www.hoover.org

This study refutes common myths about corporate welfare programs: that they create jobs and promote growth; that they =`level the playing field=' with our foreign competitors; that they help small businesses; and that the payments are provided without regard to political considerations. The main effects of industrial policy programs are to undermine the free enterprise system and corrupt the political system. Congress should get businesses off the dole and use the savings to cut taxes, reduce the national debt or both.
Saturday, May 1, 1999 31 min read

I'm not interested in reading cut&paste propaganda. Your own thoughts, please.

 

[Zincwarrior]

Actually you can. I've seen them for sale in Wyoming gift shops. Buffalo, I think.

Also Mythbusters.

 

[BlindBoo]

I'm not interested in reading cut&paste propaganda. Your own thoughts, please.

You proved the current fair tax or flat tax effort is a ruse to attack the so called welfare state, again, without addressing the corporate welfare that exists. In fact you refused to even look at it. Also, why should I address you repeating the myth that a progressive income tax redistributes wealth?

 

[Orangecat]

You proved the current fair tax or flat tax effort is a ruse to attack the so called welfare state,

Incorrect.

again, without addressing the corporate welfare that exists. In fact you refused to even look at it. Also, why should I address you repeating the myth that a progressive income tax redistributes wealth?

You don't seem to understand that I'm not a supporter of corporate welfare.
I'm also intelligent enough to realize tax cuts are not welfare. Are you?
Welfare is giving money or goods to an entity that has done nothing in return for such largess.

 

[AsherN]

This doesn't sound like a VAT tax. A VAT tax taxes the product every step of the way which is unconstitutional. The manufacturer turns raw material into product for profit, it gets taxed. They ship it to a warehouse where they profit, it gets taxed again, it goes from the warehouse to the store for them to sell for profit, and taxed again.

Yes, our tax money is used by the Democrats for vote buying and it does work well. But I think if people had to physically pay for that spending when they buy things, they would take an interest in the spending that caused their consumption tax to increase. Like I said, right now we don't care because our lives don't change in the least.

Not quite the way it works. Yes, sales tax is charged when "it" is sold. but taxes paid are used as input credit against taxes collected. Assume 5% tax rate. I buy $100 of raw materials. I pay $5 sales tax. I sell my product for $110 and collect $5.50 in sales tax. I remit $0.50 to the gov. The sales tax I pay on stuff does not really affect my profitability or the price of my goods because they offset the taxes I remit. And that credit is for everything, not only the materials used in creating my product. ALL sales tax paid by buying goods to run my business is used to offset sales tax I collect by selling my goods.