Russia Looking to Annex Ukraine. SO WHAT ?

[Peach]

Bottom line is are you willing to kill and possibly be killed for Ukraine? If not, siddown.

My answer is - I AM - But that's because I'm from there.

Everyone else should have a very different answer from mine (unless they are similarly affiliated or have a very unique world view).

Good times

I wish liberty for Ukraine, an a change of heart, if he has one, for Putin.

 

[blackhawk]

This looks like another Vietnam in the making it was said interesting because it reminds me very much of how Hitler and the Nazis began their march across Europe.

 

[oldfart]

There were issues in Ukraine to begin with. The lying, thieving, corrupt piece of crap president ran away when people were getting fed up with the situation. I'm sure there was outside involvement from all sides, in the original situation, but the fundamental problems already existed. Things had to change. But then everyone got involved even more (mostly Russia and especially Russia) and things morphed, escalated and morphed some more and now here were are...

This is not about Ukraine anymore...

First I commend you on your patience and ability to resist rising to the bait. Most Americans have little knowledge or interest in Eastern Europe and we have a tendency to make insensitive comments without knowing it.

First the history. The original Russian state was Kievan Rus and occupied the territory of present day Ukraine. This state slowly grew from about 900--1200 CE, mainly toward the north and east. When the Mongol invasion hit, the Russian states of the steppe were overrun and the states of the forest became tributaries of the Golden Horde. From this period until about 1500 CE the Russian state consolidated first around Vladimir and later around Moscow. By this time Ukraine had largely become a part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The Russian state was always expansionary, and gradually it came to dominate Eastern Europe by about 1850 absorbing Ukraine, most of Poland, Finland, the Baltic states, the Caucusus, and expanding over Siberia and Central Asia. To say that Ukraine is a part of Russia is similar to saying that Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Mongolia, Kazakstan, Turkistan, Turkmenistan, Moldova, Georgia, Afganistan, and Iran are part of Russia. Each of these nations has separate identity and a minority Russian population (except for Latvia which is almost evenly split). By this kind of reasoning, Austria should be entitled to the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, half of Rumania, a third of Poland, Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia.

The great multi-national empires of a hundred years ago are all gone; get over it!

The Soviet period was marked by huge population shifts and deportations. There aren't many Tartars in Crimea because Stalin deported all of them to Siberia and only 10% have been able to return. In their place, Stalin usually sent reliable cadres, usually Russian. Part of the problem today is that in many of these new nations the Russian minority was a privileged minority, in power through the Red Army and the Party apparatus. They are still not used to sharing power with people they consider inferior, even if it is their country.

The issue of corruption in the Ukrainian government is a red herring. Of course most of the government since 1991 has been corrupt. So has the governments of Belarus and Russia and most of the former Soviet Republics. It's a problem to be addressed, but it has nothing to do with Ukrainian independence.

The United States interest in the conflict is simply that Russia is an international outlaw, a regime dedicated to repression at home and conquest and hegemony abroad. If you don't know about Abkhazia, Southern Ossetia, and Transnistria, you haven't been paying attention. The Ukraine is notable only because the Europeans seem to be willing to take the Russian threat seriously and do something about it this time. Russia is simply an oil company with nuclear weapons and an unstable meglomaniac for a ruler.

You are correct. This is not about Ukraine any more; it never was about Ukraine, it was about Russian hegemony.

 

[protectionist]

This looks like another Vietnam in the making it was said interesting because it reminds me very much of how Hitler and the Nazis began their march across Europe.

It reminds me of how the US sent advisors and cash to South Vietnam, and the same went to North Vietnam from a Russian administration, and it started out as a proxy war.

 

[protectionist]

Bottom line is are you willing to kill and possibly be killed for Ukraine? If not, siddown.

My answer is - I AM - But that's because I'm from there.

Everyone else should have a very different answer from mine (unless they are similarly affiliated or have a very unique world view).

Good times

I wish liberty for Ukraine, an a change of heart, if he has one, for Putin.

What would the Ukrainian people define "liberty" for them, to be ? Maybe they want to be "liberated' from their current leaders, and consider Putin to be their liberator. Those in Crimea voted 97% to hook back up with Russia.

 

[protectionist]

There were issues in Ukraine to begin with. The lying, thieving, corrupt piece of crap president ran away when people were getting fed up with the situation. I'm sure there was outside involvement from all sides, in the original situation, but the fundamental problems already existed. Things had to change. But then everyone got involved even more (mostly Russia and especially Russia) and things morphed, escalated and morphed some more and now here were are...

This is not about Ukraine anymore...

First I commend you on your patience and ability to resist rising to the bait. Most Americans have little knowledge or interest in Eastern Europe and we have a tendency to make insensitive comments without knowing it.

First the history. The original Russian state was Kievan Rus and occupied the territory of present day Ukraine. This state slowly grew from about 900--1200 CE, mainly toward the north and east. When the Mongol invasion hit, the Russian states of the steppe were overrun and the states of the forest became tributaries of the Golden Horde. From this period until about 1500 CE the Russian state consolidated first around Vladimir and later around Moscow. By this time Ukraine had largely become a part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The Russian state was always expansionary, and gradually it came to dominate Eastern Europe by about 1850 absorbing Ukraine, most of Poland, Finland, the Baltic states, the Caucusus, and expanding over Siberia and Central Asia. To say that Ukraine is a part of Russia is similar to saying that Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Mongolia, Kazakstan, Turkistan, Turkmenistan, Moldova, Georgia, Afganistan, and Iran are part of Russia. Each of these nations has separate identity and a minority Russian population (except for Latvia which is almost evenly split). By this kind of reasoning, Austria should be entitled to the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, half of Rumania, a third of Poland, Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia.

The great multi-national empires of a hundred years ago are all gone; get over it!

The Soviet period was marked by huge population shifts and deportations. There aren't many Tartars in Crimea because Stalin deported all of them to Siberia and only 10% have been able to return. In their place, Stalin usually sent reliable cadres, usually Russian. Part of the problem today is that in many of these new nations the Russian minority was a privileged minority, in power through the Red Army and the Party apparatus. They are still not used to sharing power with people they consider inferior, even if it is their country.

The issue of corruption in the Ukrainian government is a red herring. Of course most of the government since 1991 has been corrupt. So has the governments of Belarus and Russia and most of the former Soviet Republics. It's a problem to be addressed, but it has nothing to do with Ukrainian independence.

The United States interest in the conflict is simply that Russia is an international outlaw, a regime dedicated to repression at home and conquest and hegemony abroad. If you don't know about Abkhazia, Southern Ossetia, and Transnistria, you haven't been paying attention. The Ukraine is notable only because the Europeans seem to be willing to take the Russian threat seriously and do something about it this time. Russia is simply an oil company with nuclear weapons and an unstable meglomaniac for a ruler.

You are correct. This is not about Ukraine any more; it never was about Ukraine, it was about Russian hegemony.

This overlooking the fact that as is, Ukraine is vulnerable to Islamist marauders like ISIS and Iran, and lack the safety they would have as part of Russia. It also, overlooks the wishes of the Ukranian people, to obtain that safety.

 

[Katzndogz]

My answer is - I AM - But that's because I'm from there.

Everyone else should have a very different answer from mine (unless they are similarly affiliated or have a very unique world view).

Good times

I wish liberty for Ukraine, an a change of heart, if he has one, for Putin.

What would the Ukrainian people define "liberty" for them, to be ? Maybe they want to be "liberated' from their current leaders, and consider Putin to be their liberator. Those in Crimea voted 97% to hook back up with Russia.

So did the people of Donetsk. That's why they are fighting. Some refuse to accept the vote.

 

[blackhawk]

This looks like another Vietnam in the making it was said interesting because it reminds me very much of how Hitler and the Nazis began their march across Europe.

It reminds me of how the US sent advisors and cash to South Vietnam, and the same went to North Vietnam from a Russian administration, and it started out as a proxy war.

It reminds me of how Hitler annexed parts of Czechoslovakia under the reason most of that area was German when the world did nothing he keep on going taking a little more until he finally realized no one was going to intervene and took all of Europe and launched the world into a second world war. The parallels to both Vietnam and Nazi Germany are disturbing.

 

[protectionist]

I wish liberty for Ukraine, an a change of heart, if he has one, for Putin.

What would the Ukrainian people define "liberty" for them, to be ? Maybe they want to be "liberated' from their current leaders, and consider Putin to be their liberator. Those in Crimea voted 97% to hook back up with Russia.

So did the people of Donetsk. That's why they are fighting. Some refuse to accept the vote.

Well they could remain independent and wait for ISIS to come along and crucify and behead them. There is that option.

 

[slava]

Difference is in the majority. Majority of population was against Britain and majority of population is against Russia.

you are a fuc.. liar. Russia is in fact wasting its time and money on saving your ukrainian asses from being completely consumed and torn apart by the usa. consider this, fella. How many countries has Russia ever attempted to raze to the ground like the usa did under the pretence that they genuinely wanted to establish stable democracies and protect civil Liberties" for the last two decades? The answer is none while the usa has been actually dropping bombs on civilians killing thousands of people in more than 10 countries...

The usa politicians are not that dumb not to predict how russia might react to the actions of Nuland, Jonh Carry and their like. They are bent on brinning about the absorption of the Ukraine into the western sphere of influence, establishing military bases along Russia's borders and rooting out any sign of the disloylaty/resistense Russia and the rest of the world which are still both economically and politically independent might show. The sanctity of state sovereignty the world's security structure is built upon is just an obsolete notion for the usa.

there's one thing I really can't wrap my head around - why do some americam citizens and politicians consider themselves to be superior to others. why do you believe that you have every right to invade other countries whenever it suits you?

who the hell are you to poke your nose into the internal affairs of independent states, topple unfriendly governments and then point the finget at Russia, saying that you are in a position to teach us what it means to be democratic. Either you somehow have failed to understand the very prinsiples of democracy and think that being democratic is nothing but bending others to your will or you are just a bunch of idiots being manipulated into beliebing every word your politicians say...


the bloodshed could have been easily avoided if the points our president was making hadn't sailed over Barack Obama's head (though I doubt that your president is really in charge of your country - you nonexistent democracy is just a spurious exuse for the wealthiest one persent to become even wealthier through spreading this bullshit and demolishing other countries)

btw you've been a nation of utter hypocrites scince the creationof the decclaration of independence. Your forefathers proudly declared that everybody is born equall comletely disregarding the fact that they were bloody slave drivers and owned people as property. Really if Iwere a president you'd be the last nation I would go for advice - actions speak louder than words and the actions of your treacherous politicians deserve contempt.

 

[Agit8r]

Difference is in the majority. Majority of population was against Britain and majority of population is against Russia.

you are a fuc.. liar. Russia is in fact wasting its time and money on saving your ukrainian asses...

Dude, clean debate zone!