Sexual Harrassment - what is it and what isn't it?

[monkrules]

Have you ever work in a medical office?

I know too many Doctors that have played with their female staff...

I know an arrogant dentist who surrounds himself with fine young things (assistants). Then he plays the role of Big Doctor and Savior to the hilt, as the young women who seem to have been trained, look on adoringly. I guess it's his way of feeding his ego. And I have no doubt he's always trying to get some strange off these kids. The guy is a douche bag.

 

[Alexandra]

If they were innocent and the claims were bogus? They would fight for truth.....obviously the claims had merit or they wouldn't have bailed. I suspect that the accusations of those that have resigned in disgrace go much deeper but I can only speculate.

"They would fight for truth..."

Sorry for saying so, but that's a naive sentiment. Shame is a powerful weapon that can take out the innocent as quickly as the guilty, and fighting for truth in a lynch-mob atmosphere is the province of the extraordinary. Most people are content to keep their heads down and go with the flow, and quite a few of the falsely accused, having been part of the mob one moment only to find themselves its target the next, are much more likely to cower because they know what they're up against, because they helped nurture it.

"I can only speculate..."

Keep that in mind.

Not if you stand for something.......obviously the ones accused had something to hide or they would have fought for their reputations.

There's nothing obvious about it. The wording of several of their statements makes it plain they don't (or didn't) think they were doing anything criminal, but they're sorry they offended anyone. Not wanting to drag out their time in the spotlight of shame, knowing the venomous nature of what they're up against, could be the reason they're not putting up a fight. It could be that they're looking at their families and don't want to prolong the agony of all the attention. Maybe they're waiting for their day in court to go on the record about the incidents.

People are wronged every day and don't fight for the truth. Sometimes they even confess to doing things they didn't do.

 

[Dale Smith]

If they were innocent and the claims were bogus? They would fight for truth.....obviously the claims had merit or they wouldn't have bailed. I suspect that the accusations of those that have resigned in disgrace go much deeper but I can only speculate.

"They would fight for truth..."

Sorry for saying so, but that's a naive sentiment. Shame is a powerful weapon that can take out the innocent as quickly as the guilty, and fighting for truth in a lynch-mob atmosphere is the province of the extraordinary. Most people are content to keep their heads down and go with the flow, and quite a few of the falsely accused, having been part of the mob one moment only to find themselves its target the next, are much more likely to cower because they know what they're up against, because they helped nurture it.

"I can only speculate..."

Keep that in mind.

Not if you stand for something.......obviously the ones accused had something to hide or they would have fought for their reputations.

There's nothing obvious about it. The wording of several of their statements makes it plain they don't (or didn't) think they were doing anything criminal, but they're sorry they offended anyone. Not wanting to drag out their time in the spotlight of shame, knowing the venomous nature of what they're up against, could be the reason they're not putting up a fight. It could be that they're looking at their families and don't want to prolong the agony of all the attention. Maybe they're waiting for their day in court to go on the record about the incidents.

People are wronged every day and don't fight for the truth. Sometimes they even confess to doing things they didn't do.

Sorry, your reputation is all that you have and I would fight for mine regardless of the cost and let the chips fall where they may. Innocent people do not tuck tail and run away if they have any intestinal fortitude.

 

[Alexandra]

Sorry, your reputation is all that you have and I would fight for mine regardless of the cost and let the chips fall where they may. Innocent people do not tuck tail and run away if they have any intestinal fortitude.

Well, that's you. And that's great, really. Integrity is hard to come by, if you can call putting reputation first integrity. But you have to admit the folly in expecting others to feel the same obligation to integrity as you do. Especially people like Al freakin' Franken.

Whether these men are as horrible as reported or not, I hope you're never put to the test on the same scale they have been.

Even the most honorable and sure of their own truth have been known to cave in.

And if you ever are put to the test, I hope you'll remember what usually awaits those who compromise their integrity...

(deleted and re-posted due to formatting mayhem)

 

[Coyote]

Yes there is a big danger here in that the law is so vague and puts so much power in the hands of the woman accuser. It almost reverses the 'Innocent until proven Guilty' paradigm.

My feelings are mixed on this as well.

Because women making those accusations are automatically assumed to be liars or worse if they speak up. So they don't.

Sure, there has always been the presumption that the woman "asked for it" in some way or is looking to cash in. The most tragic examples of that were the rape and misconduct victims of Bill Clinton. I always thought it was so ironic that the one woman (Monica) who apparently invited Bill Clinton's sexual advances was the one who got him Impeached.

Clinton’s women got their day in court though so I would not
call them tragic.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Firing someone, anyone, over an accusation proven false is a massive lawsuit that the firm would do everything possible to settle without going to court.

And yet 'coerced resignations' happen all the time.

 

[JimBowie1958]

.....obviously the ones accused had something to hide or they would have fought for their reputations.

There is nothing 'obvious' when money is involved.

 

[BlackSand]

Women soldiers are equally lonely and horny I assume. Why are they not distracted by the men? Why are they not raping the men? What do you think?

Either she is or she isn't ... But JimBowie1958 has a point.

It doesn't matter if she is horny ... She better keep that shit under wraps ... And draw a firm line at what is acceptable to her.
If she doesn't ... She is going to have a shitload of trouble on her hands.

There were times I saw men fighting over women in the military.
It was usually when the some swinging dick overstepped his bounds ... And her fellow soldiers helped him recognize the line again*.



*Edit:
A practice that might not be seen as acceptable in a civilian workplace.

.

 

[BoSoxGal]

It's not a new problem. I was coming of age in the late 80's, early 90's, and PC culture was already well-established when it came to sexual harassment. The Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings were the first manifestation of it.

I was just a high school kid working an evening job as a restaurant hostess back then, but I'll always remember one night in the break area when one of the prep cooks complimented my hairstyle. Even though I thanked him earnestly (I had worked on it, after all), his face quickly took on a haunted aspect, reflecting his inner thoughts. Then he looked at me cautiously and said he was sorry that he spoke without thinking, and that he didn't mean to make me uncomfortable if he had, indeed, done that.

I was horrified. For him. This poor guy, just another kid my age, had paid me a compliment, and then an instant later had been seized by dreadful visions of the manager firing him for making unwanted advances on a female co-worker.

That was the incident that made me realize I could no longer call myself a feminist - at least, not a feminist by contemporary standards. From its seat in the metropolitan bastions of social influence, the womens' movement wasn't promoting equality, it was threatening persecution and instilling fear... a very well-founded fear. If I'd had the mind to, I could have complained in melodramatic fashion about that boy's compliment and watched as he was fired.

It reminded me of The Crucible.

Something was really wrong.

And it still is. What's new is that it's coming back to haunt the left. They were fine with it up until now.

What a load of horseshit.

 

[BoSoxGal]

I have worked around women my entire career and have NEVER been accused of harassing a woman or using my authority over them to finagle sexual favors. Those being accused have proof against them. "He said, she said" doesn't work not even in the admiralty courts. Accusations can be made against anyone but the burden of proof is on the plaintiff and the defendant gets the opportunity to confront/ face off against his/her accusers.

And exactly when has that occurred over the last couple months? I don't recall any of these fellows facing their accusers in a court of law yet.

But they've already been convicted in the court of public opinion. Lauer got fired and will always be a scuzz. Franken will probably be fired by voters during his next election, and he'll never live down that picture. Charlie Rose went from lion to leper.

If a woman who's worked with you decided to level an accusation, and enough people paid attention, the same could happen to you whether you deserved it or not.

There is nothing more disgusting than a woman hating woman who sucks cocks every chance she gets, desperate for attention and approval from men. You’re pathetic.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Alexandra wins the thread.

That is all.

 

[aaronleland]

Sexual harassment is an overused term. You can't even rub your dick against a woman in the grocery store without people freaking out nowadays.

 

[Natural Citizen]

And yet 'coerced resignations' happen all the time.

Ah, yes. Institutionalized privilege. There's a cultural ism attached to it usually.

 

[EverCurious]

Plus one woman who feels rather similarly to Alexandra here.

I'm a dom type, though a slight deviant from the norm in that I'm not into betas (men or women) but rather fellow alphas. I guess I've been relatively lucky in that all my "mistaken" hits were on fellow alphas who took my misread of their interest as a compliment rather than as "sexual assault."

Still I lodge a complaint, not for myself as I'm "off the market," but rather for other women and men like me who prefer an alpha "male" approach when it comes to sex, and relationships. If a guy has to ask for "permission" they ain't gonna get my go ahead...

It's gotten so ridiculous out there these days that my husband and I had a discussion with our family lawyer about how our boys can protect themselves from false accusations. There is almost no way short of a signed "sexual consent approval" form - and damn straight the woman better be sober and be willing to say she /was/ sober 40 years down the line.

The hysteria around this is absolutely out of control and I don't see anyway to rein it in... It's so out there that a guy can't hit on a girl at school, can't do it at work, and shit even on this board a woman yesterday complained about guys hitting on her in a fucking bar. There is /no where/ a guy can hit on a girl, not even a god damn fishing compliment to see if she's interested in them. Lawyer up men, you're gonna need it just to get a fucking date >.<

 

[TyroneSlothrop]

“He was like an octopus … His hands were everywhere.” Jessica Leeds
Age 38 Year: 1980s Location: A first-class cabin of a plane


Leeds alleges Trump groped grabbed her breasts and tried to put his hand up her skirt. Source: The New York Times

 

[OldLady]

Plus one woman who feels rather similarly to Alexandra here.

I'm a dom type, though a slight deviant from the norm in that I'm not into betas (men or women) but rather fellow alphas. I guess I've been relatively lucky in that all my "mistaken" hits were on fellow alphas who took my misread of their interest as a compliment rather than as "sexual assault."

Still I lodge a complaint, not for myself as I'm "off the market," but rather for other women and men like me who prefer an alpha "male" approach when it comes to sex, and relationships. If a guy has to ask for "permission" they ain't gonna get my go ahead...

It's gotten so ridiculous out there these days that my husband and I had a discussion with our family lawyer about how our boys can protect themselves from false accusations. There is almost no way short of a signed "sexual consent approval" form - and damn straight the woman better be sober and be willing to say she /was/ sober 40 years down the line.

The hysteria around this is absolutely out of control and I don't see anyway to rein it in... It's so out there that a guy can't hit on a girl at school, can't do it at work, and shit even on this board a woman yesterday complained about guys hitting on her in a fucking bar. There is /no where/ a guy can hit on a girl, not even a god damn fishing compliment to see if she's interested in them. Lawyer up men, you're gonna need it just to get a fucking date >.<

Please link me to any of the actual accusations against men that we've heard about that were a simple compliment.
What's wrong with "would you like to go for a (drink) (coffee) (dinner)?"

It's not a compliment or testing the waters to send an employee a sex toy with instructions how to use it. Or slamming your groin up against a woman in the elevator. That is not a smooth way to ask about a date.
Keep the accusations in context. There have always been polite ways for a man to show interest in a woman, and they are not suddenly verboten. This argument that it is destroying any potential relationships between men and women is a scare tactic to convince people we shouldn't be holding these harassers accountable.

 

[Pop23]

We've reached a rather dangerous tipping point...and I don't know where it will go or how we should handle it.

It's a fact that women endure a great deal of harrassment from men. Over Thanksgiving, my mother told me some of what she had to put up with as a professional woman scientists in a male dominated profession. I'm sure that is not unique.

It seems that Weinstein finally provided the tipping point for women to speak up about it. That for once they can without having their reputations trashed as sluts.

But it also seems that there is a rush - people are being fired rapidly, based on accusation, with little recourse to a defense. It's possible we simply don't hear the whole story...I'm not so sure about this rush to judgement.

I also think that people are lumping everything into the "sexual assault" category when it might not be.

There is a difference between a wolf whistle on the street corner and grabbing a woman's bum. There is a difference between grabbing a woman's bum and forceably kissing her. And there is a difference between forceably kissing her and raping her. They shouldn't all be treated the same.

There is the expectation of a certain professional code of conduct in the workplace - and there should be well established rules and a means of redress when boundaries are crossed. But I have to wonder - will men now be afraid to put a comforting arm around an upset woman? Provide a compliment on how she looks?

It's a bit of a Pandora's box...that needed to be opened, because women were silenced and shamed for so long...yet, there is more than we can handle there.

Well for openers, corporations only have their own interests in mind. So it is understandable that they are firing based on accusations alone, which is unjust, but corporations are not about justice, they are about profits, and about cutting their losses, and about avoiding responsibility, and about making it look like they did everything they could.

That's the corporate world.

This kind of world is easy meat for a false accuser.

However we have no way of knowing who is a false accuser and who else is a true accuser. Corporations don't care. They are firing all of the intended subjects of accusations.

Cheaper than defending a lawsuit as well

 

[Natural Citizen]

What's wrong with "would you like to go for a (drink) (coffee) (dinner)?"

Hey. You're there to work, not date. That's what's wrong with it.

 

[OldLady]

What's wrong with "would you like to go for a (drink) (coffee) (dinner)?"

Hey. You're there to work, not date. That's what's wrong with it.

Of course. The situations evercurious was throwing out were general, not about the workplace.

 

[EverCurious]

Plus one woman who feels rather similarly to Alexandra here.

I'm a dom type, though a slight deviant from the norm in that I'm not into betas (men or women) but rather fellow alphas. I guess I've been relatively lucky in that all my "mistaken" hits were on fellow alphas who took my misread of their interest as a compliment rather than as "sexual assault."

Still I lodge a complaint, not for myself as I'm "off the market," but rather for other women and men like me who prefer an alpha "male" approach when it comes to sex, and relationships. If a guy has to ask for "permission" they ain't gonna get my go ahead...

It's gotten so ridiculous out there these days that my husband and I had a discussion with our family lawyer about how our boys can protect themselves from false accusations. There is almost no way short of a signed "sexual consent approval" form - and damn straight the woman better be sober and be willing to say she /was/ sober 40 years down the line.

The hysteria around this is absolutely out of control and I don't see anyway to rein it in... It's so out there that a guy can't hit on a girl at school, can't do it at work, and shit even on this board a woman yesterday complained about guys hitting on her in a fucking bar. There is /no where/ a guy can hit on a girl, not even a god damn fishing compliment to see if she's interested in them. Lawyer up men, you're gonna need it just to get a fucking date >.<

Please link me to any of the actual accusations against men that we've heard about that were a simple compliment.
What's wrong with "would you like to go for a (drink) (coffee) (dinner)?"

It's not a compliment or testing the waters to send an employee a sex toy with instructions how to use it. Or slamming your groin up against a woman in the elevator. That is not a smooth way to ask about a date.
Keep the accusations in context. There have always been polite ways for a man to show interest in a woman, and they are not suddenly verboten. This argument that it is destroying any potential relationships between men and women is a scare tactic to convince people we shouldn't be holding these harassers accountable.

There's been COURT rulings about this shit honey, where have you been?

Here's the latest one I can recall from Canada - note the first case cited, the woman /sued/ over getting canned, and cited a simple compliment as harassment.

EDIT - Hell note them all, that's actually a pretty nice write up of cases from up north. I'll see if I can find some American ones though.