CDZ Should college education be available for free to anyone who qualifies academically?

[320 Years of History]

View attachment 64660

The thread isn't about one's having to go to college or what degree one pursues.

FWIW, I have no issue with the trade school route referenced in your cartoon being free if that's what one wants to do.

Also, and again, FWIW, depending on the industry, liberal arts majors start at $60K-$70K per year and the majority of partners in those industries have liberal arts/social science degrees. The starting partner "salary" is well into six figures. So you may want to the following caption for the liberal arts guy:

• Earnings potential:
  ~10 - 13 years into a career with a good firm --> $250K+/year
  ~20 years in --> $700K+/year

I suspect that welding doesn't look nearly as good, now, does it? I'm not saying an exceptional welder cannot match that career earnings potential; I'm saying that it's not the norm for welders, whereas it is for folks who choose any number of professions for which higher education is a requirement and in the practice of which one "meets expectations" and occasionally exceeds them. Or in other words, for one who continues to perform as well professionally as one did academically to earn 3.0 cum/3.6+ in-major GPAs in college so as to get the free college education this thread asks about.

 

[the_human_being]

View attachment 64660

The thread isn't about one's having to go to college or what degree one pursues.

FWIW, I have no issue with the trade school route referenced in your cartoon being free if that's what one wants to do.

Also, and again, FWIW, depending on the industry, liberal arts majors start at $60K-$70K per year and the majority of partners in those industries have liberal arts/social science degrees. The starting partner "salary" is well into six figures. So you may want to the following caption for the liberal arts guy:

• Earnings potential:
  ~10 - 13 years into a career with a good firm --> $250K+/year
  ~20 years in --> $700K+/year

I suspect that welding doesn't look nearly as good, now, does it? I'm not saying an exceptional welder cannot match that career earnings potential; I'm saying that it's not the norm for welders, whereas it is for folks who choose any number of professions for which higher education is a requirement and in the practice of which one "meets expectations" and occasionally exceeds them. Or in other words, for one who continues to perform as well professionally as one did academically to earn 3.0 cum/3.6+ in-major GPAs in college so as to get the free college education this thread asks about.

Could you provide a link from a verifiable and reliable source to add credibility to your claims?

 

[320 Years of History]

If you think it's a good idea.....pay for it.

Don't force your neighbors to.

The equation for Liberalism:
Good intensions + coercion = solution

I've done exactly that. Several times in fact. I also received a free education.

It's done me quite well, and it's surely going to do well for the kids who've received free college from me. It's been such a boon that I am certain it'd be enough of one for anyone who qualifies for it that I think college (welding school, whatever) should be free for folks who want to and qualify to go and finish as stated in my OP.

 

[320 Years of History]

..... Some of the stated criteria are pre-enrollment criteria and some apply to the course of one's college career. In order to get the free college education, a student must meet the criteria. ....

Hence my question. Do you envision retroactively billing a student who fails to meet your criteria?

I have not given any thought to how to manage the administration of the payment/re-payment aspect of the proposed program. I have thought about whether the program is a good one that we should, as a nation, commit to making come to fruition. As I said, first I think about what ends I feel merit achieving. Once I commit to achieving an end, then I worry about how to achieve it. This thread is about whether the end merits achieving.

 

[320 Years of History]

.....to your assertion that "it can't be free."
...

Nothing is "free." You should know that.

Tell that to my kids. You can be sure that every bit of education they received was and remains free to them.

 

[Asclepias]

Judging by the replies of some of the posters that claim they went to college one would think that maybe its a bad idea after all. Most cant simply answer the question and lack good reading comprehension.

If you think it's a good idea.....pay for it.

Don't force your neighbors to.

The equation for Liberalism:
Good intensions + coercion = solution

Exhibit A.

No one is talking about how its to be paid for. Let me guess. You went to college right?

 

[320 Years of History]

View attachment 64660

The thread isn't about one's having to go to college or what degree one pursues.

FWIW, I have no issue with the trade school route referenced in your cartoon being free if that's what one wants to do.

Also, and again, FWIW, depending on the industry, liberal arts majors start at $60K-$70K per year and the majority of partners in those industries have liberal arts/social science degrees. The starting partner "salary" is well into six figures. So you may want to the following caption for the liberal arts guy:

• Earnings potential:
  ~10 - 13 years into a career with a good firm --> $250K+/year
  ~20 years in --> $700K+/year

I suspect that welding doesn't look nearly as good, now, does it? I'm not saying an exceptional welder cannot match that career earnings potential; I'm saying that it's not the norm for welders, whereas it is for folks who choose any number of professions for which higher education is a requirement and in the practice of which one "meets expectations" and occasionally exceeds them. Or in other words, for one who continues to perform as well professionally as one did academically to earn 3.0 cum/3.6+ in-major GPAs in college so as to get the free college education this thread asks about.

Could you provide a link from a verifiable and reliable source to add credibility to your claims?

Begging the question: Begging the question (fallacy) - Grammarist

Compensation:

• The Average Hourly Wage for a Law Firm Partner
  
• What Can You Expect to Make at a Big 4 Firm Over a 15 Year Period? | Going Concern
  
• https://charlesaris.com/wp-content/...rategy-Consulting-Compensation-Study-2015.pdf

 

[320 Years of History]

Judging by the replies of some of the posters that claim they went to college one would think that maybe its a bad idea after all. Most cant simply answer the question and lack good reading comprehension.

I have noticed that several folks seem unable to answer what is a very simple "yes or no" question about ends. It's as if one asked them "do you know what you'd like to do?" and they just don't know. Tell me, what credibility has one with regard to means if one can't simply state whether one thinks a given goal is worthy of being achieved.

Did folks worry about how to get to the Moon before they determined it was a destination at which they wanted to make possible someone's arrival? If one expects to achieve "something" one must have a clear target in mind.

If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.
― Coco Chanel​

 

[williepete]

Off Topic:
What do you know about the young man's comparative skills and accomplishments relative to his competition in the market for biochemistry undergraduates?

I've participated in campus recruiting (grad and undergrad) for some 20+ years.

Off Topic? According to what pompous authority? You? You're not up to the task.

What do I know about his comparative skills and accomplishments?

He's a frigging waiter Einstein.

You've participated in recruiting these gullible kids? You've bilked them out of their money? You've helped put them in debt they can't repay? XXXXX --- removed personal insults..

You first have to build an economy that needs a certain skill set on a sustainable, long term basis before you start cranking out graduates to run it. That concept must go flying right over your head.

Sanctimonious self appointed demigods completely out of touch with the real world are just what I don't miss about my good old college days. I prefer reality.

 

[Unkotare]

.....to your assertion that "it can't be free."
...

Nothing is "free." You should know that.

Tell that to my kids. You can be sure that every bit of education they received was and remains free to them.

None of it was free. Is this really so hard to understand?

 

[the_human_being]

View attachment 64660

The thread isn't about one's having to go to college or what degree one pursues.

FWIW, I have no issue with the trade school route referenced in your cartoon being free if that's what one wants to do.

Also, and again, FWIW, depending on the industry, liberal arts majors start at $60K-$70K per year and the majority of partners in those industries have liberal arts/social science degrees. The starting partner "salary" is well into six figures. So you may want to the following caption for the liberal arts guy:

• Earnings potential:
  ~10 - 13 years into a career with a good firm --> $250K+/year
  ~20 years in --> $700K+/year

I suspect that welding doesn't look nearly as good, now, does it? I'm not saying an exceptional welder cannot match that career earnings potential; I'm saying that it's not the norm for welders, whereas it is for folks who choose any number of professions for which higher education is a requirement and in the practice of which one "meets expectations" and occasionally exceeds them. Or in other words, for one who continues to perform as well professionally as one did academically to earn 3.0 cum/3.6+ in-major GPAs in college so as to get the free college education this thread asks about.

Could you provide a link from a verifiable and reliable source to add credibility to your claims?

Begging the question: Begging the question (fallacy) - Grammarist

Compensation:

• The Average Hourly Wage for a Law Firm Partner
  
• What Can You Expect to Make at a Big 4 Firm Over a 15 Year Period? | Going Concern
  
• https://charlesaris.com/wp-content/...rategy-Consulting-Compensation-Study-2015.pdf

Well, here's what I found which did not include becoming a law firm partner or starting one's own business which requires a good bit of factoring in of unknowns. Starting a business is not ant guarantee of success. According to this aarticle, it takes an awful long time to catch up with those in the STEM fields.

Liberal Arts Degrees Can Net Big Salaries -- if You Wait Long Enough -- The Motley Fool

 

[williepete]

College is fantasy land. A place to suspend adulthood for four years. It used to be an affordable place to mature a bit in an insulated bubble before going out in the real world of claws, fangs and sharp objects unless you were a sorority girl there for her MRS degree in suburban child rearing.

Today, it's too expensive to be a plaything. Anyone going to college needs to have the ability going in and a firm plan of coming out employed. Times have changed. The academic establishment may take decades to catch up with the new reality.

I look back on my college days and laugh at what a waste of money and time it was to listen to those insufferable bores drone on and on about a world they knew nothing about. The further away from college I got, the more I gave those ridiculous clowns more pity than scorn.

 

[the_human_being]

I realize the OP does not address the question as to how one actually arrives at the philosophical "free" college education. You state that this is not what you wish to address. If that is indeed the case, then your OP is totally without merit since a "free" college education is a total impossibility. There is no such animal nor can there ever be.

 

[Holos]

The title question says it all. It's a yes or no question. It is not a question about how to make it free for all who qualify academically. It is a question of about whether, in your mind, the end -- a no direct cost to the student/student's family college education -- is one that the U.S. should aim to achieve.

What does "qualify" mean in the context of the question? Measurably, it means one must achieve all of the following:

• Graduate from high school in the U.S. (or a U.S. territory) with a 3.0 cumulative GPA for grades 9 through 12,
• Score in at least the 80th percentile (overall) on either the SAT or ACT, and
• Finish a bachelor's degree in 9 semesters (4.5 years) or less with a cumulative 3.0 or higher GPA and a 3.6 or higher in one's major(s) and minor(s) (if one opts to minor in something).

This is an interesting proposal. I can concede to the standards for qualification presented, although I would prefer to argument for greater leniency by greater education.

However, I cannot move into that arguing direction at all before we address the concept of cost.

If you have no intention to discuss freedom I believe I have no freedom to discuss education.

 

[Fishlore]

The title question says it all. It's a yes or no question. It is not a question about how to make it free for all who qualify academically. It is a question of about whether, in your mind, the end -- a no direct cost to the student/student's family college education -- is one that the U.S. should aim to achieve.

What does "qualify" mean in the context of the question? Measurably, it means one must achieve all of the following:

• Graduate from high school in the U.S. (or a U.S. territory) with a 3.0 cumulative GPA for grades 9 through 12,
• Score in at least the 80th percentile (overall) on either the SAT or ACT, and
• Finish a bachelor's degree in 9 semesters (4.5 years) or less with a cumulative 3.0 or higher GPA and a 3.6 or higher in one's major(s) and minor(s) (if one opts to minor in something).

Sounds like a plan to benefit white, middle class students?

The education system is the most important single support of our class system. As more and more white, middle-class Americans are being ground under as non-white and working-class Americans have always been, the recognition of the true nature of American society is coming into clearer focus. The education system is the most effective thing we can use to shape a society more to our liking. We need to stop niggling over money and political theory and ask ourselves seriously: what do we want in America for equality and opportunity? Whatever we come up with, the education system will be what makes it happen.

 

[hadit]

If society is to pay for a student to get a degree, society should choose which degrees will benefit society and thus are worth paying for. Pre-med? Sure. Engineering, Computer Science? Sure. Womens' studies, Art Appreciation? Not so much.

The golden rule will kick in. He who has the gold makes the rules, and when you want someone else to pay your way, they're going to have something to say about which way you're going to go.

 

[Asclepias]

We can see that those arguing about how to pay for free college education instead of addressing the point are the same people that are ineffective leaders. These are the people that see the glass as always half empty. Now these people may or may not have good points in their haste to knock down solutions but you can see its always based on fear. An educated working class is a must in this country. This is no longer the industrial revolution where a stiff back and willingness to kill yourself doing some manual labor was all that was required to make a living. This is now the information age where the emphasis is on working with your mind. Those that cant see beyond the cost, the means etc are those that are unable and or unwilling to make things happen like true leaders do.

 

[320 Years of History]

.....to your assertion that "it can't be free."
...

Nothing is "free." You should know that.

Tell that to my kids. You can be sure that every bit of education they received was and remains free to them.

None of it was free. Is this really so hard to understand?

What makes it not free to them?

 

[Asclepias]

.....to your assertion that "it can't be free."
...

Nothing is "free." You should know that.

Tell that to my kids. You can be sure that every bit of education they received was and remains free to them.

None of it was free. Is this really so hard to understand?

What makes it not free to them?

The logic is weird but it goes something like this. If someone else pays for it then its not free to the people that are taking advantage of it. So if you see someone giving away an old couch or tv its really not free to you.

 

[320 Years of History]

View attachment 64660

The thread isn't about one's having to go to college or what degree one pursues.

FWIW, I have no issue with the trade school route referenced in your cartoon being free if that's what one wants to do.

Also, and again, FWIW, depending on the industry, liberal arts majors start at $60K-$70K per year and the majority of partners in those industries have liberal arts/social science degrees. The starting partner "salary" is well into six figures. So you may want to the following caption for the liberal arts guy:

• Earnings potential:
  ~10 - 13 years into a career with a good firm --> $250K+/year
  ~20 years in --> $700K+/year

I suspect that welding doesn't look nearly as good, now, does it? I'm not saying an exceptional welder cannot match that career earnings potential; I'm saying that it's not the norm for welders, whereas it is for folks who choose any number of professions for which higher education is a requirement and in the practice of which one "meets expectations" and occasionally exceeds them. Or in other words, for one who continues to perform as well professionally as one did academically to earn 3.0 cum/3.6+ in-major GPAs in college so as to get the free college education this thread asks about.

Could you provide a link from a verifiable and reliable source to add credibility to your claims?

Begging the question: Begging the question (fallacy) - Grammarist

Compensation:

• The Average Hourly Wage for a Law Firm Partner
  
• What Can You Expect to Make at a Big 4 Firm Over a 15 Year Period? | Going Concern
  
• https://charlesaris.com/wp-content/...rategy-Consulting-Compensation-Study-2015.pdf

Well, here's what I found which did not include becoming a law firm partner or starting one's own business which requires a good bit of factoring in of unknowns. Starting a business is not ant guarantee of success. According to this aarticle, it takes an awful long time to catch up with those in the STEM fields.

Liberal Arts Degrees Can Net Big Salaries -- if You Wait Long Enough -- The Motley Fool

From the Motley Fool article:

• A recent study by PayScale shows that, after 10 years on the job, many workers with bachelor's degrees in the liberal arts have median salaries at least as hefty as their counterparts in more science-driven occupations. This research mirrors a report earlier this year from the Association of American Colleges and Universities, in which it was found that liberal arts majors on average often make approximately $2,000 more per year than their non-liberal arts peers by the time they reach the 56-60 age range.
• That might seem like an awfully long time to wait to reach parity, but the AAC&U had other upbeat news for the social sciences crowd: Unemployment is usually low for liberal arts graduates, and decreases over time, to a teensy 3.5% by the time these workers are in their 40s.
  
• Under the best-case scenario, it appears that many who graduate with a bachelor's degree in liberal arts will be in their early 30s before they can expect to see their pay catch up to that of STEM graduates who have worked the same length of time.

My thoughts on the article's remarks:

• I don't see what any of that information -- good information that it is -- has to do with whether, as a nation, the U.S. should aim to make college degrees free for qualified students. I haven't made any stipulation that "qualified" also means the student must major in some specific set of disciplines. Are additional criteria like that what you are proposing be added as criteria I listed in the OP?
• Are you questioning whether a college degree is "worth it?" If so you may find this informative:
  • "College graduates aged 25 to 32 who are working full time earn about $17,500 more annually than their peers who have only a high school diploma, according to the Pew Research Centre."
  • "While this doesn’t always hold true, college grads do, on average, make a lot more money than workers who just have a high school diploma. In fact, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, the annual salary average differences between educational levels is staggering:
    • High school drop outs: $18,734
    • High school graduates: $27,915
    • College grads (with a bachelor’s degree): $51,206
    • Advanced degree holders: $74,602"
• In this thread, I've been expressly focused on one thing and only one thing -- whether the U.S. should aim to make a college degree free to qualified students. -- and I have yet to find your simple and direct answer to the question the thread/OP asks. I can see your post #29 and post #19 imply your answer might be "no." Is it in fact "no?"

Unrelated to the Motley Fool article, my answer to the OP question is "yes." I believe we, as a nation, should aim to make college free for qualified students for several reasons:

• The skills -- be they STEM-specific or strong, broad-based analytical thinking and problem solving ones -- U.S. workers/citizens need to remain most favorably competitive in the global economy are most readily obtainable by going to college and doing well there.
• It is a waste of our national human resources not to fully develop and fully avail ourselves of the intellectual capacity/capability of all our citizen who demonstrate that they actually have a good deal of that capability. That concept shouldn't be foreign to anyone; just consider all the potential that was lost/wasted by our 250+ years of systemically inculcated and perpetuated racism all but ensured that bright and innovative blacks were unable to make anything of their ideas; thus as a nation, we didn't benefit from them. (Note: this bullet isn't about blacks, whites, or racism; it's about maximizing our citizenry's potential.)
• I believe that, as a nation, U.S. citizens should not be denied the opportunity to maximize their potential and explore their intellectual ideas/vision solely because they come from economically unfortunate circumstances.
• While there are current avenues for one potentially to get a free college education, and I applaud their existing, they are insufficient to meet the demand. "Financial constraints was the number one reason (79%) given by college counselors for why some of their college prep seniors did not go on to college. In their survey, only 30 percent of MAP-eligible students who did not go on to college full-time said that they were financially prepared for college."