Should Detroit's municipal retirees lose their pensions?

[Wry Catcher]

50 years of Democrat policies & corruption will do that.

People will die because of bad management.

You're full of shit to make this a Democrat problem. There are cities all over the US that have been run by Democrats that are NOT going bankrupt.

Get your partisan pea-brain out of your partisan ass.

btw, remember Orange County, 1995? Republican conservative stronghold Orange County?

Bankrupt. Am I entitled to validly conclude from that that REPUBLICAN municipal management causes bankruptcies?

50 years of Democrat rule means somehow Republicans are to blame for the problem.

If Republicans had 50 years of rule then yes they would be responsible too.

Not really rocket science.

No, not rocket science but no simple either. Both parties are to blame. Period.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

[If you rob a bank, how much of it do you get to keep when the Law finally catches up to you?

Equating workers with criminals.

And they wonder why they lose elections.

These "workers" are blacks which means they used affirmative action to STEAL the job from some more deserving white worker. They're worse than criminals.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Do you fools think Detroit is the only bankrupt city?

Do you think only Democrats increased the gifts showered on public employees around the country during the Wall Street derivatives boom?

I strongly suggest you investigate the derivative schemes your own local metropolis is all wound up in. You might find your hair falling out.

Can you conclusively show the derivative schemes on Wall Street are why this happened? I'm sure it had an effect, as they did everywhere, but I have a pretty good feeling Detroit's woes have mostly to do with a few generations of patronage and pandering for votes.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

50 years of Democrat rule means somehow Republicans are to blame for the problem.

If Republicans had 50 years of rule then yes they would be responsible too.

Not really rocket science.

No, not rocket science but no simple either. Both parties are to blame. Period.

Interesting retort, because I happen to remember when the market crashed in 08 it was all Republicans' fault despite both parties had their hands dirty in what lead up to it. Republicans have had no power in Detroit since before my grandparents were born. A little hard to point the finger at them, don't you think?

 

[ShootSpeeders]

[
the unions and politicians sold people lies for votes..... sucks

union driven ponzi scheme pension scams..... suck]

That's right. Politicians handed out these monstrous pensions cause they knew they wouldn't have to pay for it. Now the retirees are demanding other taxpayers pay for their outlandish pensions!!! Why should i?

 

[ShootSpeeders]

No one loses their pensions in the private sector.

When a private company goes bankrupt it is turned over the to PBGC.
The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC), was created in 1974 by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act.

If the PBGC takes over as the trustee of your pension plan, they will review the plan records and determine the benefits owed to each person. If you already receive a pension, you'll continue receiving that amount without interruption while the policy is reviewed. If you have not yet retired, you'll receive an estimated benefit when you apply to the PBGC to begin your pension payments.

Cities who go bankrupt also negotiate with the City Workers and Pensions by a bankruptcy Judge.
No one is going to lose their pensions.

You stinking liar. People lose private pensions every day. It's happened to me.

 

[Edgetho]

50 years of Democrat rule means somehow Republicans are to blame for the problem.

If Republicans had 50 years of rule then yes they would be responsible too.

Not really rocket science.

No, not rocket science but no simple either. Both parties are to blame. Period.

Interesting retort, because I happen to remember when the market crashed in 08 it was all Republicans' fault despite both parties had their hands dirty in what lead up to it. Republicans have had no power in Detroit since before my grandparents were born. A little hard to point the finger at them, don't you think?

But they will nonetheless.

Here's why I don't have any pity for the pensioners, employees and retirees of Dee-Troit.

Or any other Public Sector Worker. At all. Anywhere.

When the Union sits down to negotiate with the dimocrap scumbag politician......

Who is there to represent The People?

You know, the ones picking up the tab? The ones paying the bills. The ones on the hook for the contract?

Nobody. Nobody gives one single solitary flying fuck about the people in that scenario.

dimocrap scumbag politicians work the system to ensure they get elected and re-elcted time and time again by...

Here's how it goes....

Guido the Union Boss says to Frank the politician, "You give my boys a 30% raise and I can funnel an extra Ten Million Dollars into your Campaign Coffers.

"Not only that, I can get my boys out in the streets, carrying signs and knocking on doors in GOTV efforts. You can't lose."

And that's how it works, boys and girls.

Who's representing The People in all this? Nobody.

Who's representing The People who actually go to work every day and pay the taxes that subsidize crooked, corrupt, thieving dimocrap scum and their Union Goombah thugs?

Nobody.

The people being taken care of here are only the crooks, thieves and ne'er do wells.

The people who don't work? The people who have no intention of working? The people who sit home all day and do nothing but get high watching the tube and squirt more little dimocraps out of their stinking vaginas couldn't care less.

Neither could the drug-dealing criminals who survive off of their Welfare Whore Mamas when things are tough on the street and they can't make enough selling drugs or stealing or car-jacking or.... Whatever.

And I ain't talking about Black People, per se. Go to Boston sometime. Or New Yawk. You'll see what I mean.

Fukk these dimocrap scumbags.

They can all rot in Hell, AFAIC.

All of them.

Yeah.... I hate 'em. All of them.

Thieving, lying, no good, corrupt, stealing, good-for-nothing....

And those are the good ones

 

[Edgetho]

Took longer than I thought it would.....



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2OaCA-pOm9o]MSNBC's Dyson Cries Racism on Detroit's Bankruptcy Filing - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Harry Dresden]

You're full of shit to make this a Democrat problem. There are cities all over the US that have been run by Democrats that are NOT going bankrupt.

Get your partisan pea-brain out of your partisan ass.

btw, remember Orange County, 1995? Republican conservative stronghold Orange County?

Bankrupt. Am I entitled to validly conclude from that that REPUBLICAN municipal management causes bankruptcies?

Really?
Robert Lafee Citron was a Democratic Party politician who was the longtime Treasurer-Tax Collector of Orange County, California, when it declared Chapter 9 bankruptcy on December 6, 1994. Citron was the only Democrat to hold office in heavily Republican Orange County at the time. The bankruptcy was brought on by Citron's investment strategies, which seemed to be an effort to earn high incomes for the county without raising taxes through risky, leveraged positions in interest-rate derivative contracts. The strategy paid out at first. In 1994, a cash crunch occurred when interest rates increased and financiers for the county required increased collateral from the county.

dimocraps lie, it's what they do.

And they're stupid.

And they destroy things. Things like Cities. And States. And given the chance, an entire Country.

Not to mention, they destroy Jobs. And entire Industries.

And people's lives.

dimocraps are a cancer on Society.

The sooner we excise them and put them in the Garbage can of history, the better off the entire world will be.

the Far Left and Far Right are the Cancers on society ......not anyone else.....

 

[Harry Dresden]

This is what happens when everyone gets free stuff. If you work for a private company that goes belly up, what happens to your pension?? Why should government be any different?

.

Obozo thinks govt workers are the most important workers in america!!! Everyone else knows they are the least important. Nothing but parasites living off the real workers. Esp these AA hires.

why dont you do mankind a favor and end it all....

 

[Edgetho]

Really?
Robert Lafee Citron was a Democratic Party politician who was the longtime Treasurer-Tax Collector of Orange County, California, when it declared Chapter 9 bankruptcy on December 6, 1994. Citron was the only Democrat to hold office in heavily Republican Orange County at the time. The bankruptcy was brought on by Citron's investment strategies, which seemed to be an effort to earn high incomes for the county without raising taxes through risky, leveraged positions in interest-rate derivative contracts. The strategy paid out at first. In 1994, a cash crunch occurred when interest rates increased and financiers for the county required increased collateral from the county.

dimocraps lie, it's what they do.

And they're stupid.

And they destroy things. Things like Cities. And States. And given the chance, an entire Country.

Not to mention, they destroy Jobs. And entire Industries.

And people's lives.

dimocraps are a cancer on Society.

The sooner we excise them and put them in the Garbage can of history, the better off the entire world will be.

the Far Left and Far Right are the Cancers on society ......not anyone else.....

The Far Right exists. To deny that it exists is to be intellectually dishonest. It does.

But, it has no power in the Republican Party.

The far left IS the dimocrap party.

Why do you think they went through all the trouble of getting rid of all the 'Blue Dogs' in 2010?

That wasn't an accident.

The radicals in the dimocrap party have been slowly taking control since the 1968 dimocrap National Convention in Chicago when the LBJ wing of the party lost control.

To equate the two, to use a tu quoque equivalency of the two is dishonest and ignorant.

 

[Harry Dresden]

[If you rob a bank, how much of it do you get to keep when the Law finally catches up to you?

Equating workers with criminals.

And they wonder why they lose elections.

These "workers" are blacks which means they used affirmative action to STEAL the job from some more deserving white worker. They're worse than criminals.

if you need me to help you end it all,just let me know.....

 

[Harry Dresden]

[
the unions and politicians sold people lies for votes..... sucks

union driven ponzi scheme pension scams..... suck]

That's right. Politicians handed out these monstrous pensions cause they knew they wouldn't have to pay for it. Now the retirees are demanding other taxpayers pay for their outlandish pensions!!! Why should i?

you worry?.....dont worry your welfare check will not be disrupted....

 

[Harry Dresden]

No one loses their pensions in the private sector.

When a private company goes bankrupt it is turned over the to PBGC.
The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC), was created in 1974 by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act.

If the PBGC takes over as the trustee of your pension plan, they will review the plan records and determine the benefits owed to each person. If you already receive a pension, you'll continue receiving that amount without interruption while the policy is reviewed. If you have not yet retired, you'll receive an estimated benefit when you apply to the PBGC to begin your pension payments.

Cities who go bankrupt also negotiate with the City Workers and Pensions by a bankruptcy Judge.
No one is going to lose their pensions.

You stinking liar. People lose private pensions every day. It's happened to me.

black people everywhere are rejoicing.....how does it feel asshole?.......

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Work 35 years and have your pension pulled

Republican version of the American Dream

They're the ones who voted the dumb fucks into office time and time again.
So ultimately they're responsible for the plight they're in.

 

[Harry Dresden]

dimocraps lie, it's what they do.

And they're stupid.

And they destroy things. Things like Cities. And States. And given the chance, an entire Country.

Not to mention, they destroy Jobs. And entire Industries.

And people's lives.

dimocraps are a cancer on Society.

The sooner we excise them and put them in the Garbage can of history, the better off the entire world will be.

the Far Left and Far Right are the Cancers on society ......not anyone else.....

The Far Right exists. To deny that it exists is to be intellectually dishonest. It does.

But, it has no power in the Republican Party.

The far left IS the dimocrap party.

Why do you think they went through all the trouble of getting rid of all the 'Blue Dogs' in 2010?

That wasn't an accident.

The radicals in the dimocrap party have been slowly taking control since the 1968 dimocrap National Convention in Chicago when the LBJ wing of the party lost control.

To equate the two, to use a tu quoque equivalency of the two is dishonest and ignorant.

sure they dont.....thats why many Moderates are called RINOS because they are not Conservative enough....yea the far right has no power.....you had better tell some of the righties here....apparently they dont agree with ya.....

 

[Harry Dresden]

Before I get labeled "pro union" here, I should mention I don't believe unions have a place in professional occupations like teachers or service workers. I believe that the dangerous industries like auto manufacturing, mines, foundries, and textiles do have a need for union protection for worker safety. But doesn't OSHA cover that now you might ask? Sure, but not very closely when the GOP is in power. So there you have it....JoeBlam, union man, and right-to-work man.....depends on who's ox is getting gored is where I step in.

OSHA does not work very good either when it is a sister govt agency they are looking at....

 

[BillyV]

Oh, boy. When I guessed that Detroit's situation would be similar to Jefferson County Alabama's situation, I hit the nail on the head!

Check this out: Ronald Zajac, General Counsel of Detroit’s Pension Funds, and Paul Stewart, Former Pension Fund Trustee, Indicted in Bribery Conspiracy

Ronald Zajac, of Northville, Michigan, the general counsel of Detroit’s two pension funds, and Paul Stewart, of Detroit, Michigan, a former trustee of Detroit’s Police and Fire Retirement System, were both charged today in a superseding indictment with participating in a bribery and kickback conspiracy involving over $200 million in investments before the two city of Detroit pension funds United States Attorney Barbara L. McQuade announced today.

This is exactly what happened in Alabama. Some Wall Street banks (JP Morgan, primarily) bribed public officials to enter into swaps agreements which blew up in the taxpayers' faces.

Not one single banker went to jail. Not one.

But the public officials were prosecuted.

This is what I mean when I say time and time again the real crooks (bank fraudsters) are receiving police protection while they steal from you.

According to the 13-count superseding indictment, between January 2006 and April 2009, defendants Zajac and Stewart conspired with Beasley, Dixon, and other individuals to defraud current and retired employees of the city of Detroit of their right to the honest services of former Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick, Beasley, Stewart, and other trustees free from bribery and corruption. During the the conspiracy, Stewart accepted thousands of dollars in cash, trips, entertainment, and other things of value from people seeking investments from the Police and Fire Retirement System. Stewart accepted a $5,000 casino chip, a Christmas basket that included an envelope with thousands of dollars in cash, a cash payment of $2,500 during a trip to New York City, a cash payment of $2,500 during a trip to Florida, an excursion to the Bahamas for Stewart and his mistress, and a trip to Naples, Florida, for Stewart and his mistress. In addition, Stewart accepted a “birthday present” of $5,000 in cash at a party at the Atheneum Hotel. Zajac organized the party, and Zajac solicited and collected the cash from people having business before the Boards of Trustees of the pension funds. Zajac also collected and delivered an additional $5,000 in cash for a second pension fund trustee at the same party. At a party in January 2007, Zajac collected and delivered thousands of dollars in cash for former Treasurer and Trustee Beasley.

Notice how this FBI page does not mention WHO PAID THE BRIBES. They just refer to them as "people seeking investments from the Police and Fire Retirement System".

Why are these "people" not under indictment?

Things that make you go, "Hmmmmm..."

I don't see anything in the article that indicates there were any losses incurred by the pension funds from the alleged bribery of trustees. These officials broke the law and should be prosecuted, and it's reasonably possible that the investments they steered the funds to were less appropriate than they may have invested in otherwise, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence of that. And there is absolutely no mention of "swaps" or any other complex derivative instruments; probably just bribed by a broker with a fat commission on the line.

In any case, the only part of the pension that is up for grabs is the unfunded liability – the police and fire pension claims to be 96% funded, the general pension fund is about 80%; the two funds together have almost $6 billion in assets. So while there may be some shortfalls, the current pension payments are funded; if they have to take “pennies on the dollar” for the unfunded portion, the haircut to the current retirees shouldn’t be too stiff. It’s unclear where their $9.2 billion in claims from the city come from, but it’s more likely retiree healthcare benefits, and perhaps overstated to elicit both alarm and sympathy.

 

[JoeBlam]

I don't see anything in the article that indicates there were any losses incurred by the pension funds from the alleged bribery of trustees. These officials broke the law and should be prosecuted, and it's reasonably possible that the investments they steered the funds to were less appropriate than they may have invested in otherwise, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence of that. And there is absolutely no mention of "swaps" or any other complex derivative instruments; probably just bribed by a broker with a fat commission on the line.

In any case, the only part of the pension that is up for grabs is the unfunded liability – the police and fire pension claims to be 96% funded, the general pension fund is about 80%; the two funds together have almost $6 billion in assets. So while there may be some shortfalls, the current pension payments are funded; if they have to take “pennies on the dollar” for the unfunded portion, the haircut to the current retirees shouldn’t be too stiff. It’s unclear where their $9.2 billion in claims from the city come from, but it’s more likely retiree healthcare benefits, and perhaps overstated to elicit both alarm and sympathy.

Good work.

 

[Wry Catcher]

50 years of Democrat rule means somehow Republicans are to blame for the problem.

If Republicans had 50 years of rule then yes they would be responsible too.

Not really rocket science.

No, not rocket science but no simple either. Both parties are to blame. Period.

Interesting retort, because I happen to remember when the market crashed in 08 it was all Republicans' fault despite both parties had their hands dirty in what lead up to it. Republicans have had no power in Detroit since before my grandparents were born. A little hard to point the finger at them, don't you think?

Detroit is one data point in a national problem. I can't speak to Detroit's mess but I do know that the economic mess ('07 - '09) known as the Great Recession had many fathers. It's genesis was greed, for wealth and power. I'm also sure that greed and self interest continue to supersede honest debate on finding and implementing solutions.