Should the Federal Government Own Nevada ?

[Camp]

you do not have any say what so ever in the federal lands in Nevada

or anywhere else for that matter

The Constitution says I do

It does not say that racist Cliven Bundy has a right to use federal land for profit without reimbursing We the People

so what you do not have a say in it

nameless faceless bureaucrats do

you have less say every day the government grows

Your comment indicates you are a talker and have little if any knowledge or experience in how to make government work for your chosen causes. People spend years, sometime decades, making government work for them and the causes they believe in with the use of rights spelled out in our constitution. Those desert tortoises in Nevada are being preserved because people confronted those "nameless faceless bureaucrats" with petitions, public gatherings, letters to elected officials, attendance at hearings and town hall meetings, formation of not for profit and non profit organizations, etc., etc.

 

[jon_berzerk]

The Constitution says I do

It does not say that racist Cliven Bundy has a right to use federal land for profit without reimbursing We the People

so what you do not have a say in it

nameless faceless bureaucrats do

you have less say every day the government grows

Your comment indicates you are a talker and have little if any knowledge or experience in how to make government work for your chosen causes. People spend years, sometime decades, making government work for them and the causes they believe in with the use of rights spelled out in our constitution. Those desert tortoises in Nevada are being preserved because people confronted those "nameless faceless bureaucrats" with petitions, public gatherings, letters to elected officials, attendance at hearings and town hall meetings, formation of not for profit and non profit organizations, etc., etc.

Those desert tortoises in Nevada are being preserved

who gave you that idea

the government killed 900 of those tortoises

gold butte is not about the critter

it is about making it a mitigated area

as a payoff to destroy some other area of the desert

 

[bendog]

The most important question with respect to the Bundy Ranch Standoff remains unanswered. Why does the federal government own Nevada? It does not own New York or Virginia or Massachusetts. Cliven Bundy says that the state of Nevada owns the contested land. The Bureau of Land Management clearly considers the property the federal government’s, hence the 200 snipers posted on the property and the tasing of the Bundys for resisting when the feds confiscated their cattle. Who is right?

But the problem isn’t Nevada’s alone. The percentage of land owned by government exceeds fifty percent in Alaska (98.5), Idaho (63.8), Oregon (52.6), and Utah (63.6). Indeed, the federal government claims to own a third of all the landmass in the United States (Inventory Report on Real Property Owned by the United States Throughout the World, published by the General Services Administration, page 10). Government owns almost half of California (47.5). Basically the federal government did not give western states all their land when they qualified for statehood. States were so excited to get coveted statehood that they went along with the conditions despite the confiscation of, for most in the West, at least a third of their land.

But this is not the most serious violation of the Constitution. The Founders understood that the size of land holding was proportionally related to the perceived size of the federal government and they intentionally wanted that perception small. The Federal government was permitted to have but 10 square miles for a federal capital. The only other land that they could acquire had to be for military purposes as specified in the common defense clause of the Constitution, Article I, Section 8, Clause 17 which reads: “and to exercise like Authority over all places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the same shall be for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock Yards, and other needful Buildings.”

Any new acquisition, outside the capital, had (1) to be purchased, (2) have the consent of the State Legislature where the land exists, (3) and be for military purposes.

cont.
Does the Federal Government own Nevada? | The Tribune Papers

Landuse and ownership in the west is an interesting topic. But your misunderstanding of history and comparing the capital to western expansion and limits on federal power are so ill educated and tea party oriented as to make any effort futile.

 

[NYcarbineer]

well it's no surprise that lefties have steered clear of this thread....

(hee hee i said 'steer'...)

of course lefties do not want to even acknowledge the Constitution...

the Bundy issue basically boils down to....is it really Nevada land or is it Federal land....?

according to the Constitution the Feds are not supposed to own it....but what will the EPA and all the other Federal bloodsuckers do then....?

what....give up their power....?!

"...the public lands in Nevada are the property of the United States because the United States has held title to those public lands since 1848, when Mexico ceded the land to the United States."

That is from the 1998 ruling against Bundy, against the same argument you're trying to make.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The federal grazing fee that Bundy refuses to pay is $1.35 per month per cow.

The market rate on private lands in Nevada is $16.80.

Bundy refused to pay for something he was getting at a 90+% discount, at the expense of the taxpayers.

Op-ed: Cliven Bundy is a food-stamp cowboy | The Salt Lake Tribune

 

[bendog]

Well, the problem is Bundy, and from the OP I guess SE, want to make this a "constitution" issue. It isn't. That's been said and done about 40 years ago. Generally, we don't do doovers unless it's like Plessy v. Ferguson or something. And, there's no reason to do so. The issue of ownership is for congress.

http://www.law.umaryland.edu/marshall/crsreports/crsdocuments/RL34267_12032007.pdf

And, while I have no problem with states taking up duties of permitting, if the notion of a state having the power to sell land to a multinational, or the Koch Bros, without some scheme to really address the cost/benefit/price doesn't send cold chills up your spine, you're a fool

 

[jon_berzerk]

The federal grazing fee that Bundy refuses to pay is $1.35 per month per cow.

The market rate on private lands in Nevada is $16.80.

Bundy refused to pay for something he was getting at a 90+% discount, at the expense of the taxpayers.

Op-ed: Cliven Bundy is a food-stamp cowboy | The Salt Lake Tribune

his issue is the limit placed on the number of cattle he could graze

 

[Camp]

so what you do not have a say in it

nameless faceless bureaucrats do

you have less say every day the government grows

Your comment indicates you are a talker and have little if any knowledge or experience in how to make government work for your chosen causes. People spend years, sometime decades, making government work for them and the causes they believe in with the use of rights spelled out in our constitution. Those desert tortoises in Nevada are being preserved because people confronted those "nameless faceless bureaucrats" with petitions, public gatherings, letters to elected officials, attendance at hearings and town hall meetings, formation of not for profit and non profit organizations, etc., etc.

Those desert tortoises in Nevada are being preserved

who gave you that idea

the government killed 900 of those tortoises

gold butte is not about the critter

it is about making it a mitigated area

as a payoff to destroy some other area of the desert

Of course the issue is not just about saving the tortoise, but the tortoise is a key element in preserving the desert area between Las Vegas and the National Parks and Monuments north of Las Vegas and transforming that area into a viable tourist area that will bring an environmentally friendly industry to the area.
The tortoises alleged to be destroyed are related to a tortoise preserve operated by the state with funding from the BLM. Funding was reduced and the tortoises that could not be safely transferred to other areas due to illness, age and conditions that would effect their ability to survive on their own are the tortoises in question regarding euthanasia.
You are correct that lands are being preserved so that other lands can be otherwise developed. That is called management and that is why it is being done by the Bureau of Land Management.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Your comment indicates you are a talker and have little if any knowledge or experience in how to make government work for your chosen causes. People spend years, sometime decades, making government work for them and the causes they believe in with the use of rights spelled out in our constitution. Those desert tortoises in Nevada are being preserved because people confronted those "nameless faceless bureaucrats" with petitions, public gatherings, letters to elected officials, attendance at hearings and town hall meetings, formation of not for profit and non profit organizations, etc., etc.

Those desert tortoises in Nevada are being preserved

who gave you that idea

the government killed 900 of those tortoises

gold butte is not about the critter

it is about making it a mitigated area

as a payoff to destroy some other area of the desert

Of course the issue is not just about saving the tortoise, but the tortoise is a key element in preserving the desert area between Las Vegas and the National Parks and Monuments north of Las Vegas and transforming that area into a viable tourist area that will bring an environmentally friendly industry to the area.
The tortoises alleged to be destroyed are related to a tortoise preserve operated by the state with funding from the BLM. Funding was reduced and the tortoises that could not be safely transferred to other areas due to illness, age and conditions that would effect their ability to survive on their own are the tortoises in question regarding euthanasia.
You are correct that lands are being preserved so that other lands can be otherwise developed. That is called management and that is why it is being done by the Bureau of Land Management.

the critter is not even the issue

if it was

BLM would have encouraged more cattle grazing then less

cattle dung is a mainstay food for the tortoise

gold butte was to be offered solely as a offset land so

the land in another area could be destroyed in order to build a plant

 

[NYcarbineer]

The federal grazing fee that Bundy refuses to pay is $1.35 per month per cow.

The market rate on private lands in Nevada is $16.80.

Bundy refused to pay for something he was getting at a 90+% discount, at the expense of the taxpayers.

Op-ed: Cliven Bundy is a food-stamp cowboy | The Salt Lake Tribune

his issue is the limit placed on the number of cattle he could graze

Wrong. He didn't pay for the cattle he was grazing. No wonder you people are so mental over this. Most of you apparently have no clue as to the most simple facts of the case.

 

[Camp]

You think you are making some kind of point because our land managers decided that since land was being over developed in some areas, misused in other areas, under stress in other areas, it would be wise to get ahead of the situation. While realistically concluding that segments of our real estate holding needed to be preserved due to population growth and continued development, our management authority is wisely using all the tools available to set aside and preserve as much property as possible, by whatever means available, including the use of the endangered species act. It is the wise and financially responsible thing to do.
Your comments about cow dung being a good source of food for the tortoise is beyond ridiculous. Just because they eat it doesn't mean it is healthy for them or would even matter if it was. Nor does your dopey idea take into consideration the damages done by cattle trampling and causing destruction to the ecology that has a negative effect on other forms of wildlife that ultimately effect the well being of the desert tortoise.

 

[rightwinger]

You think you are making some kind of point because our land managers decided that since land was being over developed in some areas, misused in other areas, under stress in other areas, it would be wise to get ahead of the situation. While realistically concluding that segments of our real estate holding needed to be preserved due to population growth and continued development, our management authority is wisely using all the tools available to set aside and preserve as much property as possible, by whatever means available, including the use of the endangered species act. It is the wise and financially responsible thing to do.
Your comments about cow dung being a good source of food for the tortoise is beyond ridiculous. Just because they eat it doesn't mean it is healthy for them or would even matter if it was. Nor does your dopey idea take into consideration the damages done by cattle trampling and causing destruction to the ecology that has a negative effect on other forms of wildlife that ultimately effect the well being of the desert tortoise.

I trust BLM to make those decisions more than racist Cliven Bundy

 

[jon_berzerk]

The federal grazing fee that Bundy refuses to pay is $1.35 per month per cow.

The market rate on private lands in Nevada is $16.80.

Bundy refused to pay for something he was getting at a 90+% discount, at the expense of the taxpayers.

Op-ed: Cliven Bundy is a food-stamp cowboy | The Salt Lake Tribune

his issue is the limit placed on the number of cattle he could graze

Wrong. He didn't pay for the cattle he was grazing. No wonder you people are so mental over this. Most of you apparently have no clue as to the most simple facts of the case.

of course he didnt pay for cattle grazed his herd size was illegal according

to BLM which had limited his permit to 150 head which would have drove him out of business

like it did for 51 other ranchers in the area

 

[JakeStarkey]

Very true

Nothin builds character like a day pick'n cotton

Didn't hurt my grandmother or my dad.

Why would it?

Pick'n cotton makes you happy

Which reminds me that I have a quality still wrapped pristine "Song of the South" for sale on on e-bay.

OKTexas can learn some new songs for when he is picking that cottn

 

[JakeStarkey]

The western states have demonstrated they are not qualified to manage the lands of We the People.

 

[Camp]

his issue is the limit placed on the number of cattle he could graze

Wrong. He didn't pay for the cattle he was grazing. No wonder you people are so mental over this. Most of you apparently have no clue as to the most simple facts of the case.

of course he didnt pay for cattle grazed his herd size was illegal according

to BLM which had limited his permit to 150 head which would have drove him out of business

like it did for 51 other ranchers in the area

We keep hearing about these rancher neighbors that have been driven out of business. What does that mean? Did they loose their property? Why didn't the local or state cattlemen's association stand with Bundy? Every time I search for news reports on the topic of ranchers being driven out of business I get links to Glenn Beck crap that has absolutely no links to any kind of actual source. So what is the source of this claim about Bundy's neighboring ranchers being driven out of business?

 

[jon_berzerk]

A statement from Kena Lytle Gloeckner- a fellow rancher from Nevada.

There have been a lot of people criticizing Clive Bundy because he did not pay his grazing fees for 20 years. The public is also probably wondering why so many other cowboys are supporting Mr. Bundy even though they paid their fees and Clive did not. What you people probably do not realize is that on every rancher’s grazing permit it says the following: “You are authorized to make grazing use of the lands, under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management and covered by this grazing permit, upon your acceptance of the terms and conditions of this grazing permit and payment of grazing fees when due.” The “mandatory” terms and conditions go on to list the allotment, the number and kind of livestock to be grazed, when the permit begins and ends, the number of active or suspended AUMs (animal units per month), etc. The terms and conditions also list specific requirements such as where salt or mineral supplements can be located, maximum allowable use of forage levels (40% of annual growth), etc., and include a lot more stringent policies that must be adhered to. Every rancher must sign this “contract” agreeing to abide by the TERMS AND CONDITIONS before he or she can make payment. In the early 90s, the BLM went on a frenzy and drastically cut almost every rancher’s permit because of this desert tortoise issue, even though all of us ranchers knew that cow and desert tortoise had co-existed for a hundred+ years. As an example, a family friend had his permit cut by 90%. For those of you who are non ranchers, that would be equated to getting your paycheck cut 90%. In 1976 there were approximately 52 ranching permittees in this area of Nevada. Presently, there are 3.

Most of these people lost their livelihoods because of the actions of the BLM. Clive Bundy was one of these people who received extremely unfair and unreasonable TERMS AND CONDITIONS. Keep in mind that Mr. Bundy was required to sign this contract before he was allowed to pay. Had Clive signed on the dotted line, he would have, in essence, signed his very livelihood away. And so Mr. Bundy took a stand, not only for himself, but for all of us. He refused to be destroyed by a tyrannical federal entity and to have his American liberties and freedoms taken away. Also keep in mind that all ranchers financially paid dearly for the forage rights those permits allow –

Why The Other Ranchers Support Cliven Bundy | Stand With Cliven and Carol Bundy

 

[Katzndogz]

The federal grazing fee that Bundy refuses to pay is $1.35 per month per cow.

The market rate on private lands in Nevada is $16.80.

Bundy refused to pay for something he was getting at a 90+% discount, at the expense of the taxpayers.

Op-ed: Cliven Bundy is a food-stamp cowboy | The Salt Lake Tribune

And the drug growers in the national forests pay nothing at all. They are allowed to stay without interference by the same BLM now pursuing Bundy. That's selective prosecution. Maybe it is anti white racism.

 

[bendog]

Well, Jon, Bundy does not have some property right to use land that belongs to all of us, at a price that is not the most efficient use of the property, so as to continue the livelihood his parents engaged in.

There's been a gradual shift to the more economical use of feedlots and raising animals on less acerage for fifty or so years. Bundy's problem is that economics require him to put more animals on the land than he's permitted for. And there's no contention that the BLM has acted arbitrarily in determining the most economic use of the land. At least that's not been Bundy's argument. And, he's lost in court everytime, and he'd have won if he could show arbirtrary action.

 

[editec]

The most important question with respect to the Bundy Ranch Standoff remains unanswered. Why does the federal government own Nevada? It does not own New York or Virginia or Massachusetts.

Read your history, lad.

Judging from how ignorant your question is, you're too ignorant to even begin to understand the answer.