Should welfare recipients be able to vote?

[St.Blues]

Care4all Care4all
Super Moderator
Member #4748

May you some day fall in to the category of people you consider ''lesser'' than yourself.....it would only be justice served or karma! (i truly do not wish this upon you, the comment was for you to contemplate, the golden rule...treating others fairly, as you would want to be treated, by loving your neighbor)

Oh yea, an they love me too.... I'll just take a stroll down what ever street at 10:00pm... I'll be mugged, maybe shot with in 5 minutes. Oh yes the golden rule.

I see you are a mod... Just calling it as I see it.

 

[Steelplate]

Bad idea. I suppose that you'd also be in favor of taking retired vets who live on their retirement (i.e. government money) and don't work would be suspended from voting for a year?

Thought this country was "one citizen, one vote". Does that mean your citizenship should also be revoked for a year?

You seriously think military is welfare? I don't. What is your view that it is based on because that frankly makes no sense to me.

To think the Military is a welfare program is absurd. Yea, The urban area's just can't wait to defend America. How Laughable.......
So many Liberals want to burn the American flag. Democrats make me sick!

The Military is a welfare program. It's one of the biggest sources of Corporate Welfare there is in this country. Eisenhower even warned us of the problem when he left office.

 

[St.Blues]

You seriously think military is welfare? I don't. What is your view that it is based on because that frankly makes no sense to me.

To think the Military is a welfare program is absurd. Yea, The urban area's just can't wait to defend America. How Laughable.......
So many Liberals want to burn the American flag. Democrats make me sick!

The Military is a welfare program. It's one of the biggest sources of Corporate Welfare there is in this country. Eisenhower even warned us of the problem when he left office.

The military industrial complex... The bilderbergs. Bad. Very Bad.

 

[kaz]

At a Senate hearing in July 2001, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan was asked whether the trust fund investments are “real” or merely an accounting device. He responded, “The crucial question: Are they ultimate claims on real resources? And the answer is yes.”

Social Security Trust Fund - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can spin it any way you want, these are the facts:

1) You are giving your children the trust fund

2) You are giving your children the national debt, which includes the fund

3) Therefore, your children will be funding the trust fund you give them.

Thanks Dad. Spin your way out of that.

 

[kaz]

You seriously think military is welfare? I don't. What is your view that it is based on because that frankly makes no sense to me.

To think the Military is a welfare program is absurd. Yea, The urban area's just can't wait to defend America. How Laughable.......
So many Liberals want to burn the American flag. Democrats make me sick!

The Military is a welfare program. It's one of the biggest sources of Corporate Welfare there is in this country. Eisenhower even warned us of the problem when he left office.

I defined welfare for the thread as people who get direct checks from the government of other people's money. For the purposes of the discussion, that is the definition. No matter how lazy or useless a bureaucrat is or how someone benefits from government spending, it's not my definition. Is it wrong? Sure. But it's not welfare, as I defined it. You want to argue another one, go for it. Start a thread on it. But it's irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[Contumacious]

Bad idea. I suppose that you'd also be in favor of taking retired vets who live on their retirement (i.e. government money) and don't work would be suspended from voting for a year?

Thought this country was "one citizen, one vote". Does that mean your citizenship should also be revoked for a year?

You seriously think military is welfare? I don't. What is your view that it is based on because that frankly makes no sense to me.

To think the Military is a welfare program is absurd. !

Really?

So read about the American Military Welfare State

BTW, the US copied the military welfare system and social security from Germany 's Otto Von Bismarck.

.

 

[Care4all]

Care4all Care4all
Super Moderator
Member #4748

May you some day fall in to the category of people you consider ''lesser'' than yourself.....it would only be justice served or karma! (i truly do not wish this upon you, the comment was for you to contemplate, the golden rule...treating others fairly, as you would want to be treated, by loving your neighbor)

Oh yea, an they love me too.... I'll just take a stroll down what ever street at 10:00pm... I'll be mugged, maybe shot with in 5 minutes. Oh yes the golden rule.

I see you are a mod... Just calling it as I see it.

I was not responding as a moderator, I was responding as a long time member of this board....as a regular joe-sephine....please treat me as you would anyone else. FYI-If I was in Moderator mode, I would be typing in red ink.

Seriously, what you are advocating is taking away the voice of a citizen who is equal to you...you want to take away their representation in their own country, while you can vote in who you want, to favor YOUR CHOICES, to give you tax breaks or rebates or new roads or new schools or new hospitals or a new stadium if local representation or whatever you and anyone else that is not indigent, wants while literally zipping up the mouth of anyone who may differ with you....

that's not a democratic republic....that's favoritism to the better off or elite.

the term is no taxation, without representation....we went to war over it....

the term is NOT

no representation, without taxation.... and this is what YOU and others, are supporting imo.

 

[kaz]

I think that YOU, and your thinking is about as unamerican as they come! Maybe you should consider living in a less free country where you can be king or Dictator or Lord....?

We were a free country when we were free to profit on our ability and hard work. Today the favored way of profiting is taking from other people's pockets.

- Frederic Bastiat - "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."

http://mises.org/books/thelaw.pdf

 

[Contumacious]

[

Link? Medicare is paid for by a separate direct payroll tax. Period.

These [Trust Fund] balances are available to finance future benefit payments and other trust fund expenditures-but only in a bookkeeping sense. These funds are not set up to be pension funds, like the funds of private pension plans. They do not consist of real economic assets that can be drawn down in the future to fund benefits. Instead, they are claims on the Treasury, that, when redeemed, will have to be financed by raising taxes, borrowing from the public, or reducing benefits or other expenditures. The existence of large trust fund balances, therefore, does not, by itself, make it easier for the government to pay benefits. (emphasis added)


William Jefferson "Bill" Clinton

.

At a Senate hearing in July 2001, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan was asked whether the trust fund investments are “real” or merely an accounting device. He responded, “The crucial question: Are they ultimate claims on real resources? And the answer is yes.”

Social Security Trust Fund - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

HUH?

WTF?

At a Senate hearing in July 2001, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan was asked whether the trust fund investments are “real” or merely an accounting device.

Bwahahahahahahahah

He avoided the question you stupid moron. He never answered YES or NO - as to whether they were real or an accounting entry.

What a stupid fuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.

 

[kaz]

the term is no taxation, without representation....we went to war over it....

the term is NOT

no representation, without taxation.... and this is what YOU and others, are supporting imo.

Props for a great line even if it's not accurate. I didn't say you have to pay taxes, I said you can't be receiving government checks of other people's money. You can receive checks from voluntary sources, but not involuntary.

 

[Care4all]

I think that YOU, and your thinking is about as unamerican as they come! Maybe you should consider living in a less free country where you can be king or Dictator or Lord....?

We were a free country when we were free to profit on our ability and hard work. Today the favored way of profiting is taking from other people's pockets.

- Frederic Bastiat - "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."

http://mises.org/books/thelaw.pdf

ya think?

Is that why there are MORE wealthy people today than yesterday and do you think that is why the wealthiest hold more of this countrys wealth today than yesterday?

Id say ya got it backwards Kaz.....from purely the numbers that don't lie, it is the wealthiest who have benefited MOST from their representation in congress....imo. (and i certainly would not recommend their right to vote be taken away from them! )

We have had MAJOR cuts in TANF-welfare, during gingrich and clinton, the welfare reform that took place reduced the number of recipients greatly....

sure, there may be more welfare recipients, since the 2008 great recession but if you review the numbers of before Welfare reform and after the Gingrich reform, there was a drastic reduction....plus many more requirements in order to be able to collect TANF. and cut offs were added in the reform as well.

 

[St.Blues]

Care4all Care4all
Super Moderator
Member #4748

May you some day fall in to the category of people you consider ''lesser'' than yourself.....it would only be justice served or karma! (i truly do not wish this upon you, the comment was for you to contemplate, the golden rule...treating others fairly, as you would want to be treated, by loving your neighbor)

Oh yea, an they love me too.... I'll just take a stroll down what ever street at 10:00pm... I'll be mugged, maybe shot with in 5 minutes. Oh yes the golden rule.

I see you are a mod... Just calling it as I see it.

I was not responding as a moderator, I was responding as a long time member of this board....as a regular joe-sephine....please treat me as you would anyone else. FYI-If I was in Moderator mode, I would be typing in red ink.

Seriously, what you are advocating is taking away the voice of a citizen who is equal to you...you want to take away their representation in their own country, while you can vote in who you want, to favor YOUR CHOICES, to give you tax breaks or rebates or new roads or new schools or new hospitals or a new stadium if local representation or whatever you and anyone else that is not indigent, wants while literally zipping up the mouth of anyone who may differ with you....

that's not a democratic republic....that's favoritism to the better off or elite.

the term is no taxation, without representation....we went to war over it....

the term is NOT

no representation, without taxation.... and this is what YOU and others, are supporting imo.

Thanks for the red ink tip... Nice to know you by the way.

I just think the minority vote is all about the welfare system and who backs it and spreads it. They know little about the Country and what is good or bad policy.
They're clueless, they don't contribute other than to our population and the Prison system. They are a huge weight on our backs and quite frankly I'm sick of it.

 

[Toro]

These [Trust Fund] balances are available to finance future benefit payments and other trust fund expenditures-but only in a bookkeeping sense. These funds are not set up to be pension funds, like the funds of private pension plans. They do not consist of real economic assets that can be drawn down in the future to fund benefits. Instead, they are claims on the Treasury, that, when redeemed, will have to be financed by raising taxes, borrowing from the public, or reducing benefits or other expenditures. The existence of large trust fund balances, therefore, does not, by itself, make it easier for the government to pay benefits. (emphasis added)


William Jefferson "Bill" Clinton

.

At a Senate hearing in July 2001, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan was asked whether the trust fund investments are “real” or merely an accounting device. He responded, “The crucial question: Are they ultimate claims on real resources? And the answer is yes.”

Social Security Trust Fund - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

HUH?

WTF?

At a Senate hearing in July 2001, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan was asked whether the trust fund investments are “real” or merely an accounting device.

Bwahahahahahahahah

He avoided the question you stupid moron. He never answered YES or NO - as to whether they were real or an accounting entry.

What a stupid fuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.

Alan Greenspan is not a stupid fuck.

He said the claims are real. In case you don't know what "claims" are, they are assets of the holder. In this case, the claims are assets of the SS trusts. If a trust owns 100% tradable government Treasury bonds, the trust has claims on the tax revenues of the US Treasury. A bond is a claim on an asset. The assets in the SS trusts are also claims on the assets of the US Treasury. The only difference between publicly traded bonds and the nontradable liabilities in the trusts are that bonds are represented by a piece of paper that says they are bonds. In fact, almost all bonds are no longer tangible. They aren't "real." Nowadays, most bonds are merely electronic entries called CUSIPs held at a custodial bank. Like the liabilities in the Trusts, they don't exist in tangible form. But you can trade them, unlike the liabilities in the trusts, whereby all that occurs is that the custodial bank swaps CUSIPs between account numbers. The government could effectuate the exact same economics by making SS a "real" trust fund that does nothing but buy and sell government bonds.

Hope that helps.

 

[kaz]

You seriously think military is welfare? I don't. What is your view that it is based on because that frankly makes no sense to me.

To think the Military is a welfare program is absurd. !

Really?

So read about the American Military Welfare State

BTW, the US copied the military welfare system and social security from Germany 's Otto Von Bismarck.

.

Actually the discussion was about the soldiers, not the whole military. You're word parsing.

 

[ABikerSailor]

the term is no taxation, without representation....we went to war over it....

the term is NOT

no representation, without taxation.... and this is what YOU and others, are supporting imo.

Props for a great line even if it's not accurate. I didn't say you have to pay taxes, I said you can't be receiving government checks of other people's money. You can receive checks from voluntary sources, but not involuntary.

So I guess this means nothing..........

The New Colossus


Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Emma Lazarus, 1883

The New Colossus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's the poem written at the foot of the Statue of Liberty. I guess we no longer need it, eh?

 

[kaz]

I think that YOU, and your thinking is about as unamerican as they come! Maybe you should consider living in a less free country where you can be king or Dictator or Lord....?

We were a free country when we were free to profit on our ability and hard work. Today the favored way of profiting is taking from other people's pockets.

- Frederic Bastiat - "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."

http://mises.org/books/thelaw.pdf

ya think?

Is that why there are MORE wealthy people today than yesterday and do you think that is why the wealthiest hold more of this countrys wealth today than yesterday?

As a percent of GDP, Bill Gates has a fraction of what guys like Morgan or Rockefeller had. And you're only counting as welfare what is traditionally called welfare. I said everyone who gets checks of other people's money. And that's the problem, they are finding more and more ways to redistribute money earned by one person to another.

Id say ya got it backwards Kaz.....from purely the numbers that don't lie, it is the wealthiest who have benefited MOST from their representation in congress....imo. (and i certainly would not recommend their right to vote be taken away from them! )

Government should not be helping or harming any citizen at the expense of another, including the rich. BTW, as a math major I agree numbers don't lie, but you can definitely lie with numbers...

 

[Toro]

You're wrong. There is no social security trust fund any more then there is a defense trust fund. No assets are saved. This has been addressed several times, just because you keep repeating the lie doesn't make it truth.

There is a trust fund for SS. It invests solely in nontradable government obligations. It is as if the trust fund invested 100% in Treasury bonds, except the government just skips the middleman and debits participants' accounts as if they were invested in Treasury bonds.

This may give light to the situation.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...2000-when-we-had-a-surplus-7.html#post3825575

Hope that helps.

Again. Our parents paid social security taxes, "invested" them in t-bills, and spent the money. They then gave us a "trust fund" of t-bills. Oh, and they make us pay back the t-bills. We are doing the same to our children.

You going to take that deal from me? I'll give you a trust fund, make you pay for the trust fund and then you can pay me out of the trust fund. It's not that complicated. There is no social security trust fund any more then a defense trust fund because without assets, there is no trust fund.

Your children will be paying for you out of your own pocket, my friend. The money you say you saved you already spent. If I'm the one between us who doesn't get it, why are you the one who can't be honest about it? You are telling our kids to pay you from a trust fund and giving them the bills for the trust fund. It's welfare.

I've spent most of my career in and around pension funds, so if I were designing a pension fund, SS is about the last way I'd design it. It's terrible.

Go back and read what I posted in the link I gave you earlier because that explains how SS works, and I don't want to repeat it in full. Essentially, SS is like a pension fund with nothing but government bonds. But instead of having bonds, it cuts out the middleman and just directly credits the claims against the Treasury right to your account in the trusts. If you were to carve out the SS trusts completely from the government (which is what I would do) and invest all the proceeds from payroll taxes into government bonds (which I wouldn't do), and then run the fund based on actuarial targets, the economics would be exactly the same as how SS is run currently.

I can give you all sorts of reasons why SS is a very poor way of running a retirement system, but the claims of the trusts are as real and legally binding as government issued tradable Treasury bonds.

 

[kaz]

Alan Greenspan is not a stupid fuck.

He said the claims are real. In case you don't know what "claims" are, they are assets of the holder. In this case, the claims are assets of the SS trusts. If a trust owns 100% tradable government Treasury bonds, the trust has claims on the tax revenues of the US Treasury. A bond is a claim on an asset. The assets in the SS trusts are also claims on the assets of the US Treasury. The only difference between publicly traded bonds and the nontradable liabilities in the trusts are that bonds are represented by a piece of paper that says they are bonds. In fact, almost all bonds are no longer tangible. They aren't "real." Nowadays, most bonds are merely electronic entries called CUSIPs held at a custodial bank. Like the liabilities in the Trusts, they don't exist in tangible form. But you can trade them, unlike the liabilities in the trusts, whereby all that occurs is that the custodial bank swaps CUSIPs between account numbers. The government could effectuate the exact same economics by making SS a "real" trust fund that does nothing but buy and sell government bonds.

Hope that helps.

Yet...Spin your way out this one...

At a Senate hearing in July 2001, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan was asked whether the trust fund investments are “real” or merely an accounting device. He responded, “The crucial question: Are they ultimate claims on real resources? And the answer is yes.”

Social Security Trust Fund - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can spin it any way you want, these are the facts:

1) You are giving your children the trust fund

2) You are giving your children the national debt, which includes the fund

3) Therefore, your children will be funding the trust fund you give them.

Thanks Dad. Spin your way out of that.

 

[ABikerSailor]

We were a free country when we were free to profit on our ability and hard work. Today the favored way of profiting is taking from other people's pockets.

- Frederic Bastiat - "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."

http://mises.org/books/thelaw.pdf

ya think?

Is that why there are MORE wealthy people today than yesterday and do you think that is why the wealthiest hold more of this countrys wealth today than yesterday?

As a percent of GDP, Bill Gates has a fraction of what guys like Morgan or Rockefeller had. And you're only counting as welfare what is traditionally called welfare. I said everyone who gets checks of other people's money. And that's the problem, they are finding more and more ways to redistribute money earned by one person to another.

Id say ya got it backwards Kaz.....from purely the numbers that don't lie, it is the wealthiest who have benefited MOST from their representation in congress....imo. (and i certainly would not recommend their right to vote be taken away from them! )

Government should not be helping or harming any citizen at the expense of another, including the rich. BTW, as a math major I agree numbers don't lie, but you can definitely lie with numbers...

Think of it this way..........you're a citizen of this country, so your rent to live here is paid by your taxes.

Once you've paid your rent, you have no say in what the landlord does with your rent. You just get to live there another month.

Once you've paid your taxes, you have no say in what the politician elected does with it. You just hope that the person elected is doing what you'd like them to do.

No. Once you've paid taxes, it's no longer your money, it's the government's.

 

[kaz]

the term is no taxation, without representation....we went to war over it....

the term is NOT

no representation, without taxation.... and this is what YOU and others, are supporting imo.

Props for a great line even if it's not accurate. I didn't say you have to pay taxes, I said you can't be receiving government checks of other people's money. You can receive checks from voluntary sources, but not involuntary.

So I guess this means nothing..........

The New Colossus


Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Emma Lazarus, 1883

The New Colossus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's the poem written at the foot of the Statue of Liberty. I guess we no longer need it, eh?

It doesn't contradict anything I said. It's your own bias that people come here to go on welfare, I think they come here for the freedom to work and make a life for themselves