So, how many leftists will admit socialism failed Venezuela?

[Daryl Hunt]

It's also part of Capitalism. How to hurt your competition.

Not the point, and I don't think you merely missed it but just avoided it....you want tariffs lifted without qualifiers but do not recognize that higher taxes do more damage and are self inflicted, I would rather we stopped calling for higher taxes on ourselves than repeal tariffs on socialists, let the socialist elites feel the effects of higher taxes until they are honest about the devastation the higher taxes have on others...admit that taxes are bad and ruining our country before demanding we stop using them against those whose political survival is derived from them.

Focus. I was talking just about Venzuela. The damage we have done to that country for the last couple of decades is criminal. The US and European Governments allowed the Western Capitalists to wage, essentially, war against that country due to Chavez kicking their corrupt asses out for crimes that would have the same CEOs fined and thrown in jail had they done the same things in the US and Europe. There is a reason we have the Anti Trust laws and anti corruption laws. And when the Governments join in in the punishment that tells me who the Governments really work for and it ain't us.

You say capitalism is a good thing? In healthy amounts it is. But when it's left completely on it's own, corruption does set in. We saw that in the United States. Europe saw it there. China is seeing it now. Russia is seeing it now. It doesn't matter what any one government calls itself when Capitalism becomes the real Governing Body. Capitalism, if left to it's own devices, will always end up in corruption until there is "Only One". In many ways, the US and Europe broke Venzuela and we should have an obligation to fix it. Instead, we just break it even worse.

Yes, Meduro needs to go. He's not really corrupt, he's just extreme incompetent.

 

[Oldstyle]

How did FDR "save" capitalism? His New Deal policies are believed by many economists to have extended the Great Depression.

Capitalism has some faults...all systems do...but it's created more wealth and prosperity than any other system. How you can label THAT as failure is rather amusing!

He got the big boys together and told them how it was going to go down if they didn't cough up some dough to save the system, if not then revolutionary forces were already in place, especially after Hoover released MacArthur on the Hooterville resident veterans..
FDR along with taxes increased the chances of a great depression not hitting us again like it did so many times during the 1800's.

We had Great Depressions many times in the 1800's? Really, Moonie?

Ok they called them panics and they had them about every 10 years, ignoramus. Now we just have them every time the Republicans have 8 years 2 deregulate and cause giant corrupt bubbles and busts like 1929 1989 and 2008. And no doubt if Trump gets 8 years.... Only propaganda and brain washed fools Like you make it possible....

So we had Great Depressions about every 10 years? How in God's name did we manage to weather all of these "panics", Franco?

Went West

Don't have a clue...do you? Typical, Franco postings...

 

[ThunderKiss1965]

Actually corruption ruined Ven.

When will Cons admit that Venezuela “socialism “ has nothing to do with the democratic socialist ideas we have in America.

Just have to keep killing people until you get it right, right ?

 

[ThunderKiss1965]

Do you think the che guevera worshipers are able to admit that?

Thats not democratic socialism in Venezuela, that is a dictatorship. Democratic socialism is what you find in Western Europe, and it's working fine, much better than the predatory capitalism that exists in the U.S..

I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Sorry Bernie Bros But Nordic Countries Are Not Socialist.

 

[francoHFW]

the flat tax system we have and you don't know about is killing the middle class and the working class and you dupes don't care. You just care about the rich lol....

this is the kind of mush that passes for education on the left..who knows about the flat tax system besides you fran? and why do you feel it is the folks who do not know about this flat tax that are at fault for not caring? [they could not possibly care if they don't know about it]...take a chill pill fran, mueller will fix everything.

Google the only tax graph you need to know. Everybody outside your bubble of ignorance and misinformation cares about it duh ...

 

[francoHFW]

Do you think the che guevera worshipers are able to admit that?

Thats not democratic socialism in Venezuela, that is a dictatorship. Democratic socialism is what you find in Western Europe, and it's working fine, much better than the predatory capitalism that exists in the U.S..

I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Sorry Bernie Bros But Nordic Countries Are Not Socialist.

Funny they seem to think they are. Forbes editorial page are babbling idiots and brainwashed functional morons-Cold War dinosaurs. "We are all socialists now!"--Finland prime minister when ObamaCare passed.

 

[francoHFW]

He got the big boys together and told them how it was going to go down if they didn't cough up some dough to save the system, if not then revolutionary forces were already in place, especially after Hoover released MacArthur on the Hooterville resident veterans..
FDR along with taxes increased the chances of a great depression not hitting us again like it did so many times during the 1800's.

We had Great Depressions many times in the 1800's? Really, Moonie?

Ok they called them panics and they had them about every 10 years, ignoramus. Now we just have them every time the Republicans have 8 years 2 deregulate and cause giant corrupt bubbles and busts like 1929 1989 and 2008. And no doubt if Trump gets 8 years.... Only propaganda and brain washed fools Like you make it possible....

So we had Great Depressions about every 10 years? How in God's name did we manage to weather all of these "panics", Franco?

Went West

Don't have a clue...do you? Typical, Franco postings...

And you can't go west anymore, dumbass. Do you have any argument at all or just stupid insults, brainwashed functional moron?

 

[francoHFW]

It's also part of Capitalism. How to hurt your competition.

Not the point, and I don't think you merely missed it but just avoided it....you want tariffs lifted without qualifiers but do not recognize that higher taxes do more damage and are self inflicted, I would rather we stopped calling for higher taxes on ourselves than repeal tariffs on socialists, let the socialist elites feel the effects of higher taxes until they are honest about the devastation the higher taxes have on others...admit that taxes are bad and ruining our country before demanding we stop using them against those whose political survival is derived from them.

Focus. I was talking just about Venzuela. The damage we have done to that country for the last couple of decades is criminal. The US and European Governments allowed the Western Capitalists to wage, essentially, war against that country due to Chavez kicking their corrupt asses out for crimes that would have the same CEOs fined and thrown in jail had they done the same things in the US and Europe. There is a reason we have the Anti Trust laws and anti corruption laws. And when the Governments join in in the punishment that tells me who the Governments really work for and it ain't us.

You say capitalism is a good thing? In healthy amounts it is. But when it's left completely on it's own, corruption does set in. We saw that in the United States. Europe saw it there. China is seeing it now. Russia is seeing it now. It doesn't matter what any one government calls itself when Capitalism becomes the real Governing Body. Capitalism, if left to it's own devices, will always end up in corruption until there is "Only One". In many ways, the US and Europe broke Venzuela and we should have an obligation to fix it. Instead, we just break it even worse.

Yes, Meduro needs to go. He's not really corrupt, he's just extreme incompetent.

And you were doing so well until that last paragraph....

 

[Daryl Hunt]

He got the big boys together and told them how it was going to go down if they didn't cough up some dough to save the system, if not then revolutionary forces were already in place, especially after Hoover released MacArthur on the Hooterville resident veterans..
FDR along with taxes increased the chances of a great depression not hitting us again like it did so many times during the 1800's.

We had Great Depressions many times in the 1800's? Really, Moonie?

Ok they called them panics and they had them about every 10 years, ignoramus. Now we just have them every time the Republicans have 8 years 2 deregulate and cause giant corrupt bubbles and busts like 1929 1989 and 2008. And no doubt if Trump gets 8 years.... Only propaganda and brain washed fools Like you make it possible....

So we had Great Depressions about every 10 years? How in God's name did we manage to weather all of these "panics", Franco?

Went West

Don't have a clue...do you? Typical, Franco postings...

He may have been being glib and trolling but he's right. The Jobs were in the West and many men went west to the government jobs and then sent for the families later. They drove their cars, trucks, walked, rode the rails. whatever it took to get there.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

It's also part of Capitalism. How to hurt your competition.

Not the point, and I don't think you merely missed it but just avoided it....you want tariffs lifted without qualifiers but do not recognize that higher taxes do more damage and are self inflicted, I would rather we stopped calling for higher taxes on ourselves than repeal tariffs on socialists, let the socialist elites feel the effects of higher taxes until they are honest about the devastation the higher taxes have on others...admit that taxes are bad and ruining our country before demanding we stop using them against those whose political survival is derived from them.

Focus. I was talking just about Venzuela. The damage we have done to that country for the last couple of decades is criminal. The US and European Governments allowed the Western Capitalists to wage, essentially, war against that country due to Chavez kicking their corrupt asses out for crimes that would have the same CEOs fined and thrown in jail had they done the same things in the US and Europe. There is a reason we have the Anti Trust laws and anti corruption laws. And when the Governments join in in the punishment that tells me who the Governments really work for and it ain't us.

You say capitalism is a good thing? In healthy amounts it is. But when it's left completely on it's own, corruption does set in. We saw that in the United States. Europe saw it there. China is seeing it now. Russia is seeing it now. It doesn't matter what any one government calls itself when Capitalism becomes the real Governing Body. Capitalism, if left to it's own devices, will always end up in corruption until there is "Only One". In many ways, the US and Europe broke Venzuela and we should have an obligation to fix it. Instead, we just break it even worse.

Yes, Meduro needs to go. He's not really corrupt, he's just extreme incompetent.

And you were doing so well until that last paragraph....

I fhe were competent, things would be like they were with Chavez who had the same outside hurdles. But, let's face it, there was only ONE Chavez.

 

[ThunderKiss1965]

Do you think the che guevera worshipers are able to admit that?

Thats not democratic socialism in Venezuela, that is a dictatorship. Democratic socialism is what you find in Western Europe, and it's working fine, much better than the predatory capitalism that exists in the U.S..

I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Sorry Bernie Bros But Nordic Countries Are Not Socialist.

Funny they seem to think they are. Forbes editorial page are babbling idiots and brainwashed functional morons-Cold War dinosaurs. "We are all socialists now!"--Finland prime minister when ObamaCare passed.

Capitalism is what pays for those social safety nets. Some countries have larger ones than others that don't make them socialist.

 

[bripat9643]

We've heard the story that socialism is really a form of capitalism 10,000 times.

The first step to ending this mess is to stop with the Tariffs and embargoes on Venzuella that were started because they kicked out the US and European Oil Companies in the first place. Yes, we need to do that AFTER Meduro is gone. But do it with out qualifiers. The US and European Governments are just as much to blame as Meduro is in this mess.

There are no special tariffs on Venezuela that I'm aware of. They were able to sell their oil in US markets until quite recently. They began starving long before that happened. Your theories about Venezuela have no empirical evidence to support them.

It's called economic sanctions. You can call it tariffs or any other thing you want to. Here is just the latest

US Imposes Economic Sanctions on Venezuela
On August 24, 2017, President Trump signed an Executive Order (“Order”) imposing additional sanctions on Venezuela. The Order states that these sanctions, which primarily target the Government of Venezuela and the Venezuelan oil industry, are in response to the deepening political and humanitarian crisis in Venezuela. The Order adds to a growing list of restrictions that apply to Venezuela, which is already subject to a US arms embargo and US licensing requirements on exports and reexports of specific categories of goods, software, and technology to military end-users or for military end-uses in Venezuela. The Order also follows the designation as Specially Designated Nationals of various Venezuelan government officials (including President Nicolas Maduro) pursuant to Executive Order 13692 of March 8, 2015

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/13692.pdf
Executive Order 13692 of March 8, 2015
Section 1. (a) All property and interests in property that are in the United States, that hereafter come within the United States, or that are or hereafter come within the possession or control of any United States person of the following persons are blocked and may not be transferred, paid, exported, withdrawn, or otherwise dealt in

This is from the United States Government by way of Executive Orders from two presidents. But it doesn't mention the root cause where there was years of refusal to sell refinery equipment to be used in Venzuela or drilling equipment of any kind. The US and European Oil Companies affected a freeze of those sales even when they did not own those companies. Since the major income for Venzuela was oil, the economics started going down each year as the systems broke down. Plus, Venzuela refused to use the US Dollar Standard and that meant that the World Bank would not do business with them. The previous purchaser of their oil, being the US, refused to purchase oil from them in any product. It was either do business with the very companies that drained Venzuela dry before and caused over a 50% poverty rate or they would not do business with anyone. That is what initially caused the mess. Meduro isn't the brightest bulb in the pack. And he feels the US is bullying him and he is right. As it stands now, the US needs to stop with the bullying and Meduro needs to go on a long vacation. The US and it's heavy support of the Oil Companies are as much to blame for this mess as Meduro.

IN 2016 your hero Obama placed sanction only on specified individuals in the Venezuelan government. How would that affect the general population?

Trump didn't impose any sanctions until 6 months ago. Venezuelans began starving long before that.

Venezuela is an economic basket case because of the Chavez and Maduro regimes, not because of the USA. That couldn't be more obvious.

The US Government backed to Oil Companies denying Venzeual the ability to operate the oil fields and refineries. It has been going on for a couple of decades. These are the same oil companies that worked with the rich capitalists that stripped Venzuala of their entire economy that brought the original Revolalution into being in the first place. That "Wonder" years that you keep pointing was wonderful for the unlta rich but the average person was hungry, ill educated, unemployed and less. This is why they were sent packing. Unchecked Capitalism without any regulation means that this is what happens. As I said, Chavez could handle it but after he died, Meduro isn't a pimple on Chavez's ass. There was only one Chavez. He used socialism to put things back on track and prevented the corruption from returning. Meduro didn't know how to do that so he ended up moving to Dictatorship. The other option was to have another revolution. And that is still an option.

You keep not allowing Capitalism to accept it's role in this disaster. Unchecked Socialism used as a Government is just as bad as unchecked Capitalism used as a Government and both end up disasters. Neither one can be used for a Government.

That's the usual load of leftists horseshit when their god socialism is criticized. Most of the countries in the world are full of people who are hungry, ill educated and unemployed. Blaming the adoption of socialism on that is a diversion.

Capitalism isn't what causes poverty. The lack of capitalism is what causes poverty. The government's of all third world countries are profoundly corrupt. Whenever someone tries to start a business, there's a mountain of paper work and regulations to wade through, and then there is a line of government officials with their hands out.

Chavez didn't put things back on track. He sent the Venezuelan economy swirling down the toilet bowl. Things looked good to the poor for a short period while Chavez was looting the country's wealth, but the birds came home to roost, and when the money was all gone, they began starving. That's what always happens under socialism/communism.

Yeah, it's the fault of capitalism that Chavez ran off the people with the technical know-how to find and produce oil. What a laugh. Funny how that never happens under capitalism.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The first step to ending this mess is to stop with the Tariffs and embargoes on Venzuella that were started because they kicked out the US and European Oil Companies in the first place. Yes, we need to do that AFTER Meduro is gone. But do it with out qualifiers. The US and European Governments are just as much to blame as Meduro is in this mess.

There are no special tariffs on Venezuela that I'm aware of. They were able to sell their oil in US markets until quite recently. They began starving long before that happened. Your theories about Venezuela have no empirical evidence to support them.

It's called economic sanctions. You can call it tariffs or any other thing you want to. Here is just the latest

US Imposes Economic Sanctions on Venezuela
On August 24, 2017, President Trump signed an Executive Order (“Order”) imposing additional sanctions on Venezuela. The Order states that these sanctions, which primarily target the Government of Venezuela and the Venezuelan oil industry, are in response to the deepening political and humanitarian crisis in Venezuela. The Order adds to a growing list of restrictions that apply to Venezuela, which is already subject to a US arms embargo and US licensing requirements on exports and reexports of specific categories of goods, software, and technology to military end-users or for military end-uses in Venezuela. The Order also follows the designation as Specially Designated Nationals of various Venezuelan government officials (including President Nicolas Maduro) pursuant to Executive Order 13692 of March 8, 2015

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/13692.pdf
Executive Order 13692 of March 8, 2015
Section 1. (a) All property and interests in property that are in the United States, that hereafter come within the United States, or that are or hereafter come within the possession or control of any United States person of the following persons are blocked and may not be transferred, paid, exported, withdrawn, or otherwise dealt in

This is from the United States Government by way of Executive Orders from two presidents. But it doesn't mention the root cause where there was years of refusal to sell refinery equipment to be used in Venzuela or drilling equipment of any kind. The US and European Oil Companies affected a freeze of those sales even when they did not own those companies. Since the major income for Venzuela was oil, the economics started going down each year as the systems broke down. Plus, Venzuela refused to use the US Dollar Standard and that meant that the World Bank would not do business with them. The previous purchaser of their oil, being the US, refused to purchase oil from them in any product. It was either do business with the very companies that drained Venzuela dry before and caused over a 50% poverty rate or they would not do business with anyone. That is what initially caused the mess. Meduro isn't the brightest bulb in the pack. And he feels the US is bullying him and he is right. As it stands now, the US needs to stop with the bullying and Meduro needs to go on a long vacation. The US and it's heavy support of the Oil Companies are as much to blame for this mess as Meduro.

IN 2016 your hero Obama placed sanction only on specified individuals in the Venezuelan government. How would that affect the general population?

Trump didn't impose any sanctions until 6 months ago. Venezuelans began starving long before that.

Venezuela is an economic basket case because of the Chavez and Maduro regimes, not because of the USA. That couldn't be more obvious.

The US Government backed to Oil Companies denying Venzeual the ability to operate the oil fields and refineries. It has been going on for a couple of decades. These are the same oil companies that worked with the rich capitalists that stripped Venzuala of their entire economy that brought the original Revolalution into being in the first place. That "Wonder" years that you keep pointing was wonderful for the unlta rich but the average person was hungry, ill educated, unemployed and less. This is why they were sent packing. Unchecked Capitalism without any regulation means that this is what happens. As I said, Chavez could handle it but after he died, Meduro isn't a pimple on Chavez's ass. There was only one Chavez. He used socialism to put things back on track and prevented the corruption from returning. Meduro didn't know how to do that so he ended up moving to Dictatorship. The other option was to have another revolution. And that is still an option.

You keep not allowing Capitalism to accept it's role in this disaster. Unchecked Socialism used as a Government is just as bad as unchecked Capitalism used as a Government and both end up disasters. Neither one can be used for a Government.

That's the usual load of leftists horseshit when their god socialism is criticized. Most of the countries in the world are full of people who are hungry, ill educated and unemployed. Blaming the adoption of socialism on that is a diversion.

Capitalism isn't what causes poverty. The lack of capitalism is what causes poverty. The government's of all third world countries are profoundly corrupt. Whenever someone tries to start a business, there's a mountain of paper work and regulations to wade through, and then there is a line of government officials with their hands out.

Chavez didn't put things back on track. He sent the Venezuelan economy swirling down the toilet bowl. Things looked good to the poor for a short period while Chavez was looting the country's wealth, but the birds came home to roost, and when the money was all gone, they began starving. That's what always happens under socialism/communism.

Yeah, it's the fault of capitalism that Chavez ran off the people with the technical know-how to find and produce oil. What a laugh. Funny how that never happens under capitalism.

You seem to forget it was Perez that did most of the damage. He Nationalized the Oil Industry. And started the corruption in the Politicians. Not only were the seeds sown for failure, the whole damned garden was planted during the second half of the 1970s and beyond. Chavez had a real mess on his hands when he took power in 1998. And he was in the process of working on the corruption. Yes, many of the corrupt millionaires fled. Their only option was to stay and be thrown in prison. Chavez tried to work within the Venezuelan Constitution. But he died before he could get much done. When Meduro took over, Meduro used the very military that Chavez refused to use to quell the population. At that point, the US President Obama and then Trump laid even more economic sanctions. All of a sudden, starting in 2015, those very stores that Chavez set up to feed his people had long lines and empty shelves. Meduro wasn't smart enough to figure out how to deal with it. So he used military force. Chavez never did, he used his Military to get food to the people, get them medical help, and more. But the damage was already done after 1975 when the Oil Industry decided to not sell Valenzuela the badly needed equipment and support for it's oil industry, it's only means of national support and that was under Perez. If you can't find it, you can't pump it, you can't refine it, you can't ship it, it's pretty well worthless to have it in the ground. Chavez found work arounds for that and made inroads for the people. Meduro isn't a pimple off Chavez's ass and the corruption returned. But no where as bad as it was under Perez and before. You have to understand, the "Golden" period for Venzualla was all the way back to the early 70s. Under Perez, it slowly went downhill. By the time Chavez came along, Venzuealla was a bankrupt nation.

 

[francoHFW]

Do you think the che guevera worshipers are able to admit that?

Thats not democratic socialism in Venezuela, that is a dictatorship. Democratic socialism is what you find in Western Europe, and it's working fine, much better than the predatory capitalism that exists in the U.S..

I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Sorry Bernie Bros But Nordic Countries Are Not Socialist.

Funny they seem to think they are. Forbes editorial page are babbling idiots and brainwashed functional morons-Cold War dinosaurs. "We are all socialists now!"--Finland prime minister when ObamaCare passed.

Capitalism is what pays for those social safety nets. Some countries have larger ones than others that don't make them socialist.

All the socialists and Democratic socialists, which is the same thing in the modern world, are talking is about fair capitalism with a good safety net. Remain calm and try the real world, super duper.

 

[francoHFW]

There are no special tariffs on Venezuela that I'm aware of. They were able to sell their oil in US markets until quite recently. They began starving long before that happened. Your theories about Venezuela have no empirical evidence to support them.

It's called economic sanctions. You can call it tariffs or any other thing you want to. Here is just the latest

US Imposes Economic Sanctions on Venezuela
On August 24, 2017, President Trump signed an Executive Order (“Order”) imposing additional sanctions on Venezuela. The Order states that these sanctions, which primarily target the Government of Venezuela and the Venezuelan oil industry, are in response to the deepening political and humanitarian crisis in Venezuela. The Order adds to a growing list of restrictions that apply to Venezuela, which is already subject to a US arms embargo and US licensing requirements on exports and reexports of specific categories of goods, software, and technology to military end-users or for military end-uses in Venezuela. The Order also follows the designation as Specially Designated Nationals of various Venezuelan government officials (including President Nicolas Maduro) pursuant to Executive Order 13692 of March 8, 2015

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/13692.pdf
Executive Order 13692 of March 8, 2015
Section 1. (a) All property and interests in property that are in the United States, that hereafter come within the United States, or that are or hereafter come within the possession or control of any United States person of the following persons are blocked and may not be transferred, paid, exported, withdrawn, or otherwise dealt in

This is from the United States Government by way of Executive Orders from two presidents. But it doesn't mention the root cause where there was years of refusal to sell refinery equipment to be used in Venzuela or drilling equipment of any kind. The US and European Oil Companies affected a freeze of those sales even when they did not own those companies. Since the major income for Venzuela was oil, the economics started going down each year as the systems broke down. Plus, Venzuela refused to use the US Dollar Standard and that meant that the World Bank would not do business with them. The previous purchaser of their oil, being the US, refused to purchase oil from them in any product. It was either do business with the very companies that drained Venzuela dry before and caused over a 50% poverty rate or they would not do business with anyone. That is what initially caused the mess. Meduro isn't the brightest bulb in the pack. And he feels the US is bullying him and he is right. As it stands now, the US needs to stop with the bullying and Meduro needs to go on a long vacation. The US and it's heavy support of the Oil Companies are as much to blame for this mess as Meduro.

IN 2016 your hero Obama placed sanction only on specified individuals in the Venezuelan government. How would that affect the general population?

Trump didn't impose any sanctions until 6 months ago. Venezuelans began starving long before that.

Venezuela is an economic basket case because of the Chavez and Maduro regimes, not because of the USA. That couldn't be more obvious.

The US Government backed to Oil Companies denying Venzeual the ability to operate the oil fields and refineries. It has been going on for a couple of decades. These are the same oil companies that worked with the rich capitalists that stripped Venzuala of their entire economy that brought the original Revolalution into being in the first place. That "Wonder" years that you keep pointing was wonderful for the unlta rich but the average person was hungry, ill educated, unemployed and less. This is why they were sent packing. Unchecked Capitalism without any regulation means that this is what happens. As I said, Chavez could handle it but after he died, Meduro isn't a pimple on Chavez's ass. There was only one Chavez. He used socialism to put things back on track and prevented the corruption from returning. Meduro didn't know how to do that so he ended up moving to Dictatorship. The other option was to have another revolution. And that is still an option.

You keep not allowing Capitalism to accept it's role in this disaster. Unchecked Socialism used as a Government is just as bad as unchecked Capitalism used as a Government and both end up disasters. Neither one can be used for a Government.

That's the usual load of leftists horseshit when their god socialism is criticized. Most of the countries in the world are full of people who are hungry, ill educated and unemployed. Blaming the adoption of socialism on that is a diversion.

Capitalism isn't what causes poverty. The lack of capitalism is what causes poverty. The government's of all third world countries are profoundly corrupt. Whenever someone tries to start a business, there's a mountain of paper work and regulations to wade through, and then there is a line of government officials with their hands out.

Chavez didn't put things back on track. He sent the Venezuelan economy swirling down the toilet bowl. Things looked good to the poor for a short period while Chavez was looting the country's wealth, but the birds came home to roost, and when the money was all gone, they began starving. That's what always happens under socialism/communism.

Yeah, it's the fault of capitalism that Chavez ran off the people with the technical know-how to find and produce oil. What a laugh. Funny how that never happens under capitalism.

You seem to forget it was Perez that did most of the damage. He Nationalized the Oil Industry. And started the corruption in the Politicians. Not only were the seeds sown for failure, the whole damned garden was planted during the second half of the 1970s and beyond. Chavez had a real mess on his hands when he took power in 1998. And he was in the process of working on the corruption. Yes, many of the corrupt millionaires fled. Their only option was to stay and be thrown in prison. Chavez tried to work within the Venezuelan Constitution. But he died before he could get much done. When Meduro took over, Meduro used the very military that Chavez refused to use to quell the population. At that point, the US President Obama and then Trump laid even more economic sanctions. All of a sudden, starting in 2015, those very stores that Chavez set up to feed his people had long lines and empty shelves. Meduro wasn't smart enough to figure out how to deal with it. So he used military force. Chavez never did, he used his Military to get food to the people, get them medical help, and more. But the damage was already done after 1975 when the Oil Industry decided to not sell Valenzuela the badly needed equipment and support for it's oil industry, it's only means of national support and that was under Perez. If you can't find it, you can't pump it, you can't refine it, you can't ship it, it's pretty well worthless to have it in the ground. Chavez found work arounds for that and made inroads for the people. Meduro isn't a pimple off Chavez's ass and the corruption returned. But no where as bad as it was under Perez and before. You have to understand, the "Golden" period for Venzualla was all the way back to the early 70s. Under Perez, it slowly went downhill. By the time Chavez came along, Venzuealla was a bankrupt nation.

And GOP sanctions and covert action since at least 2002, that have now made it impossible for them to sell their oil? LOL

 

[francoHFW]

It's also part of Capitalism. How to hurt your competition.

Not the point, and I don't think you merely missed it but just avoided it....you want tariffs lifted without qualifiers but do not recognize that higher taxes do more damage and are self inflicted, I would rather we stopped calling for higher taxes on ourselves than repeal tariffs on socialists, let the socialist elites feel the effects of higher taxes until they are honest about the devastation the higher taxes have on others...admit that taxes are bad and ruining our country before demanding we stop using them against those whose political survival is derived from them.

Focus. I was talking just about Venzuela. The damage we have done to that country for the last couple of decades is criminal. The US and European Governments allowed the Western Capitalists to wage, essentially, war against that country due to Chavez kicking their corrupt asses out for crimes that would have the same CEOs fined and thrown in jail had they done the same things in the US and Europe. There is a reason we have the Anti Trust laws and anti corruption laws. And when the Governments join in in the punishment that tells me who the Governments really work for and it ain't us.

You say capitalism is a good thing? In healthy amounts it is. But when it's left completely on it's own, corruption does set in. We saw that in the United States. Europe saw it there. China is seeing it now. Russia is seeing it now. It doesn't matter what any one government calls itself when Capitalism becomes the real Governing Body. Capitalism, if left to it's own devices, will always end up in corruption until there is "Only One". In many ways, the US and Europe broke Venzuela and we should have an obligation to fix it. Instead, we just break it even worse.

Yes, Meduro needs to go. He's not really corrupt, he's just extreme incompetent.

And you were doing so well until that last paragraph....

I fhe were competent, things would be like they were with Chavez who had the same outside hurdles. But, let's face it, there was only ONE Chavez.

And only one Trump one Bolton.... Venezuela can't sell its oil anymore.....

 

[bripat9643]

There are no special tariffs on Venezuela that I'm aware of. They were able to sell their oil in US markets until quite recently. They began starving long before that happened. Your theories about Venezuela have no empirical evidence to support them.

It's called economic sanctions. You can call it tariffs or any other thing you want to. Here is just the latest

US Imposes Economic Sanctions on Venezuela
On August 24, 2017, President Trump signed an Executive Order (“Order”) imposing additional sanctions on Venezuela. The Order states that these sanctions, which primarily target the Government of Venezuela and the Venezuelan oil industry, are in response to the deepening political and humanitarian crisis in Venezuela. The Order adds to a growing list of restrictions that apply to Venezuela, which is already subject to a US arms embargo and US licensing requirements on exports and reexports of specific categories of goods, software, and technology to military end-users or for military end-uses in Venezuela. The Order also follows the designation as Specially Designated Nationals of various Venezuelan government officials (including President Nicolas Maduro) pursuant to Executive Order 13692 of March 8, 2015

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/13692.pdf
Executive Order 13692 of March 8, 2015
Section 1. (a) All property and interests in property that are in the United States, that hereafter come within the United States, or that are or hereafter come within the possession or control of any United States person of the following persons are blocked and may not be transferred, paid, exported, withdrawn, or otherwise dealt in

This is from the United States Government by way of Executive Orders from two presidents. But it doesn't mention the root cause where there was years of refusal to sell refinery equipment to be used in Venzuela or drilling equipment of any kind. The US and European Oil Companies affected a freeze of those sales even when they did not own those companies. Since the major income for Venzuela was oil, the economics started going down each year as the systems broke down. Plus, Venzuela refused to use the US Dollar Standard and that meant that the World Bank would not do business with them. The previous purchaser of their oil, being the US, refused to purchase oil from them in any product. It was either do business with the very companies that drained Venzuela dry before and caused over a 50% poverty rate or they would not do business with anyone. That is what initially caused the mess. Meduro isn't the brightest bulb in the pack. And he feels the US is bullying him and he is right. As it stands now, the US needs to stop with the bullying and Meduro needs to go on a long vacation. The US and it's heavy support of the Oil Companies are as much to blame for this mess as Meduro.

IN 2016 your hero Obama placed sanction only on specified individuals in the Venezuelan government. How would that affect the general population?

Trump didn't impose any sanctions until 6 months ago. Venezuelans began starving long before that.

Venezuela is an economic basket case because of the Chavez and Maduro regimes, not because of the USA. That couldn't be more obvious.

The US Government backed to Oil Companies denying Venzeual the ability to operate the oil fields and refineries. It has been going on for a couple of decades. These are the same oil companies that worked with the rich capitalists that stripped Venzuala of their entire economy that brought the original Revolalution into being in the first place. That "Wonder" years that you keep pointing was wonderful for the unlta rich but the average person was hungry, ill educated, unemployed and less. This is why they were sent packing. Unchecked Capitalism without any regulation means that this is what happens. As I said, Chavez could handle it but after he died, Meduro isn't a pimple on Chavez's ass. There was only one Chavez. He used socialism to put things back on track and prevented the corruption from returning. Meduro didn't know how to do that so he ended up moving to Dictatorship. The other option was to have another revolution. And that is still an option.

You keep not allowing Capitalism to accept it's role in this disaster. Unchecked Socialism used as a Government is just as bad as unchecked Capitalism used as a Government and both end up disasters. Neither one can be used for a Government.

That's the usual load of leftists horseshit when their god socialism is criticized. Most of the countries in the world are full of people who are hungry, ill educated and unemployed. Blaming the adoption of socialism on that is a diversion.

Capitalism isn't what causes poverty. The lack of capitalism is what causes poverty. The government's of all third world countries are profoundly corrupt. Whenever someone tries to start a business, there's a mountain of paper work and regulations to wade through, and then there is a line of government officials with their hands out.

Chavez didn't put things back on track. He sent the Venezuelan economy swirling down the toilet bowl. Things looked good to the poor for a short period while Chavez was looting the country's wealth, but the birds came home to roost, and when the money was all gone, they began starving. That's what always happens under socialism/communism.

Yeah, it's the fault of capitalism that Chavez ran off the people with the technical know-how to find and produce oil. What a laugh. Funny how that never happens under capitalism.

You seem to forget it was Perez that did most of the damage. He Nationalized the Oil Industry. And started the corruption in the Politicians. Not only were the seeds sown for failure, the whole damned garden was planted during the second half of the 1970s and beyond. Chavez had a real mess on his hands when he took power in 1998. And he was in the process of working on the corruption. Yes, many of the corrupt millionaires fled. Their only option was to stay and be thrown in prison. Chavez tried to work within the Venezuelan Constitution. But he died before he could get much done. When Meduro took over, Meduro used the very military that Chavez refused to use to quell the population. At that point, the US President Obama and then Trump laid even more economic sanctions. All of a sudden, starting in 2015, those very stores that Chavez set up to feed his people had long lines and empty shelves. Meduro wasn't smart enough to figure out how to deal with it. So he used military force. Chavez never did, he used his Military to get food to the people, get them medical help, and more. But the damage was already done after 1975 when the Oil Industry decided to not sell Valenzuela the badly needed equipment and support for it's oil industry, it's only means of national support and that was under Perez. If you can't find it, you can't pump it, you can't refine it, you can't ship it, it's pretty well worthless to have it in the ground. Chavez found work arounds for that and made inroads for the people. Meduro isn't a pimple off Chavez's ass and the corruption returned. But no where as bad as it was under Perez and before. You have to understand, the "Golden" period for Venzualla was all the way back to the early 70s. Under Perez, it slowly went downhill. By the time Chavez came along, Venzuealla was a bankrupt nation.

You are so full of shit it's unbelievable. Your narrative is total fantasy. For one thing, Perez was also a hardcore leftwinger. The differences between his policies and those of Chavez are indistinguishable. Somehow you manage to absolve Chavez of all blame and place it on the guy who came before and the guy who came after. The reality is that they were just three ducks in a row, and life for people in Venezuela got steadily worse under them.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

It's called economic sanctions. You can call it tariffs or any other thing you want to. Here is just the latest

US Imposes Economic Sanctions on Venezuela
On August 24, 2017, President Trump signed an Executive Order (“Order”) imposing additional sanctions on Venezuela. The Order states that these sanctions, which primarily target the Government of Venezuela and the Venezuelan oil industry, are in response to the deepening political and humanitarian crisis in Venezuela. The Order adds to a growing list of restrictions that apply to Venezuela, which is already subject to a US arms embargo and US licensing requirements on exports and reexports of specific categories of goods, software, and technology to military end-users or for military end-uses in Venezuela. The Order also follows the designation as Specially Designated Nationals of various Venezuelan government officials (including President Nicolas Maduro) pursuant to Executive Order 13692 of March 8, 2015

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/13692.pdf
Executive Order 13692 of March 8, 2015
Section 1. (a) All property and interests in property that are in the United States, that hereafter come within the United States, or that are or hereafter come within the possession or control of any United States person of the following persons are blocked and may not be transferred, paid, exported, withdrawn, or otherwise dealt in

This is from the United States Government by way of Executive Orders from two presidents. But it doesn't mention the root cause where there was years of refusal to sell refinery equipment to be used in Venzuela or drilling equipment of any kind. The US and European Oil Companies affected a freeze of those sales even when they did not own those companies. Since the major income for Venzuela was oil, the economics started going down each year as the systems broke down. Plus, Venzuela refused to use the US Dollar Standard and that meant that the World Bank would not do business with them. The previous purchaser of their oil, being the US, refused to purchase oil from them in any product. It was either do business with the very companies that drained Venzuela dry before and caused over a 50% poverty rate or they would not do business with anyone. That is what initially caused the mess. Meduro isn't the brightest bulb in the pack. And he feels the US is bullying him and he is right. As it stands now, the US needs to stop with the bullying and Meduro needs to go on a long vacation. The US and it's heavy support of the Oil Companies are as much to blame for this mess as Meduro.

IN 2016 your hero Obama placed sanction only on specified individuals in the Venezuelan government. How would that affect the general population?

Trump didn't impose any sanctions until 6 months ago. Venezuelans began starving long before that.

Venezuela is an economic basket case because of the Chavez and Maduro regimes, not because of the USA. That couldn't be more obvious.

The US Government backed to Oil Companies denying Venzeual the ability to operate the oil fields and refineries. It has been going on for a couple of decades. These are the same oil companies that worked with the rich capitalists that stripped Venzuala of their entire economy that brought the original Revolalution into being in the first place. That "Wonder" years that you keep pointing was wonderful for the unlta rich but the average person was hungry, ill educated, unemployed and less. This is why they were sent packing. Unchecked Capitalism without any regulation means that this is what happens. As I said, Chavez could handle it but after he died, Meduro isn't a pimple on Chavez's ass. There was only one Chavez. He used socialism to put things back on track and prevented the corruption from returning. Meduro didn't know how to do that so he ended up moving to Dictatorship. The other option was to have another revolution. And that is still an option.

You keep not allowing Capitalism to accept it's role in this disaster. Unchecked Socialism used as a Government is just as bad as unchecked Capitalism used as a Government and both end up disasters. Neither one can be used for a Government.

That's the usual load of leftists horseshit when their god socialism is criticized. Most of the countries in the world are full of people who are hungry, ill educated and unemployed. Blaming the adoption of socialism on that is a diversion.

Capitalism isn't what causes poverty. The lack of capitalism is what causes poverty. The government's of all third world countries are profoundly corrupt. Whenever someone tries to start a business, there's a mountain of paper work and regulations to wade through, and then there is a line of government officials with their hands out.

Chavez didn't put things back on track. He sent the Venezuelan economy swirling down the toilet bowl. Things looked good to the poor for a short period while Chavez was looting the country's wealth, but the birds came home to roost, and when the money was all gone, they began starving. That's what always happens under socialism/communism.

Yeah, it's the fault of capitalism that Chavez ran off the people with the technical know-how to find and produce oil. What a laugh. Funny how that never happens under capitalism.

You seem to forget it was Perez that did most of the damage. He Nationalized the Oil Industry. And started the corruption in the Politicians. Not only were the seeds sown for failure, the whole damned garden was planted during the second half of the 1970s and beyond. Chavez had a real mess on his hands when he took power in 1998. And he was in the process of working on the corruption. Yes, many of the corrupt millionaires fled. Their only option was to stay and be thrown in prison. Chavez tried to work within the Venezuelan Constitution. But he died before he could get much done. When Meduro took over, Meduro used the very military that Chavez refused to use to quell the population. At that point, the US President Obama and then Trump laid even more economic sanctions. All of a sudden, starting in 2015, those very stores that Chavez set up to feed his people had long lines and empty shelves. Meduro wasn't smart enough to figure out how to deal with it. So he used military force. Chavez never did, he used his Military to get food to the people, get them medical help, and more. But the damage was already done after 1975 when the Oil Industry decided to not sell Valenzuela the badly needed equipment and support for it's oil industry, it's only means of national support and that was under Perez. If you can't find it, you can't pump it, you can't refine it, you can't ship it, it's pretty well worthless to have it in the ground. Chavez found work arounds for that and made inroads for the people. Meduro isn't a pimple off Chavez's ass and the corruption returned. But no where as bad as it was under Perez and before. You have to understand, the "Golden" period for Venzualla was all the way back to the early 70s. Under Perez, it slowly went downhill. By the time Chavez came along, Venzuealla was a bankrupt nation.

And GOP sanctions and covert action since at least 2002, that have now made it impossible for them to sell their oil? LOL

They still are under economic sanctions and can't get the equipment nor the support to get the oil to sell much less process the oil. Only the Russians have come to their aid with their own equipment and support and will buy their oil. Of course, anyone making a deal with the Russians are making a deal with the Devil.

The US and Europe are still providing crippling economic programs to them. Vensuella has NO chance of pulling out of this mess.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

It's called economic sanctions. You can call it tariffs or any other thing you want to. Here is just the latest

US Imposes Economic Sanctions on Venezuela
On August 24, 2017, President Trump signed an Executive Order (“Order”) imposing additional sanctions on Venezuela. The Order states that these sanctions, which primarily target the Government of Venezuela and the Venezuelan oil industry, are in response to the deepening political and humanitarian crisis in Venezuela. The Order adds to a growing list of restrictions that apply to Venezuela, which is already subject to a US arms embargo and US licensing requirements on exports and reexports of specific categories of goods, software, and technology to military end-users or for military end-uses in Venezuela. The Order also follows the designation as Specially Designated Nationals of various Venezuelan government officials (including President Nicolas Maduro) pursuant to Executive Order 13692 of March 8, 2015

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/13692.pdf
Executive Order 13692 of March 8, 2015
Section 1. (a) All property and interests in property that are in the United States, that hereafter come within the United States, or that are or hereafter come within the possession or control of any United States person of the following persons are blocked and may not be transferred, paid, exported, withdrawn, or otherwise dealt in

This is from the United States Government by way of Executive Orders from two presidents. But it doesn't mention the root cause where there was years of refusal to sell refinery equipment to be used in Venzuela or drilling equipment of any kind. The US and European Oil Companies affected a freeze of those sales even when they did not own those companies. Since the major income for Venzuela was oil, the economics started going down each year as the systems broke down. Plus, Venzuela refused to use the US Dollar Standard and that meant that the World Bank would not do business with them. The previous purchaser of their oil, being the US, refused to purchase oil from them in any product. It was either do business with the very companies that drained Venzuela dry before and caused over a 50% poverty rate or they would not do business with anyone. That is what initially caused the mess. Meduro isn't the brightest bulb in the pack. And he feels the US is bullying him and he is right. As it stands now, the US needs to stop with the bullying and Meduro needs to go on a long vacation. The US and it's heavy support of the Oil Companies are as much to blame for this mess as Meduro.

IN 2016 your hero Obama placed sanction only on specified individuals in the Venezuelan government. How would that affect the general population?

Trump didn't impose any sanctions until 6 months ago. Venezuelans began starving long before that.

Venezuela is an economic basket case because of the Chavez and Maduro regimes, not because of the USA. That couldn't be more obvious.

The US Government backed to Oil Companies denying Venzeual the ability to operate the oil fields and refineries. It has been going on for a couple of decades. These are the same oil companies that worked with the rich capitalists that stripped Venzuala of their entire economy that brought the original Revolalution into being in the first place. That "Wonder" years that you keep pointing was wonderful for the unlta rich but the average person was hungry, ill educated, unemployed and less. This is why they were sent packing. Unchecked Capitalism without any regulation means that this is what happens. As I said, Chavez could handle it but after he died, Meduro isn't a pimple on Chavez's ass. There was only one Chavez. He used socialism to put things back on track and prevented the corruption from returning. Meduro didn't know how to do that so he ended up moving to Dictatorship. The other option was to have another revolution. And that is still an option.

You keep not allowing Capitalism to accept it's role in this disaster. Unchecked Socialism used as a Government is just as bad as unchecked Capitalism used as a Government and both end up disasters. Neither one can be used for a Government.

That's the usual load of leftists horseshit when their god socialism is criticized. Most of the countries in the world are full of people who are hungry, ill educated and unemployed. Blaming the adoption of socialism on that is a diversion.

Capitalism isn't what causes poverty. The lack of capitalism is what causes poverty. The government's of all third world countries are profoundly corrupt. Whenever someone tries to start a business, there's a mountain of paper work and regulations to wade through, and then there is a line of government officials with their hands out.

Chavez didn't put things back on track. He sent the Venezuelan economy swirling down the toilet bowl. Things looked good to the poor for a short period while Chavez was looting the country's wealth, but the birds came home to roost, and when the money was all gone, they began starving. That's what always happens under socialism/communism.

Yeah, it's the fault of capitalism that Chavez ran off the people with the technical know-how to find and produce oil. What a laugh. Funny how that never happens under capitalism.

You seem to forget it was Perez that did most of the damage. He Nationalized the Oil Industry. And started the corruption in the Politicians. Not only were the seeds sown for failure, the whole damned garden was planted during the second half of the 1970s and beyond. Chavez had a real mess on his hands when he took power in 1998. And he was in the process of working on the corruption. Yes, many of the corrupt millionaires fled. Their only option was to stay and be thrown in prison. Chavez tried to work within the Venezuelan Constitution. But he died before he could get much done. When Meduro took over, Meduro used the very military that Chavez refused to use to quell the population. At that point, the US President Obama and then Trump laid even more economic sanctions. All of a sudden, starting in 2015, those very stores that Chavez set up to feed his people had long lines and empty shelves. Meduro wasn't smart enough to figure out how to deal with it. So he used military force. Chavez never did, he used his Military to get food to the people, get them medical help, and more. But the damage was already done after 1975 when the Oil Industry decided to not sell Valenzuela the badly needed equipment and support for it's oil industry, it's only means of national support and that was under Perez. If you can't find it, you can't pump it, you can't refine it, you can't ship it, it's pretty well worthless to have it in the ground. Chavez found work arounds for that and made inroads for the people. Meduro isn't a pimple off Chavez's ass and the corruption returned. But no where as bad as it was under Perez and before. You have to understand, the "Golden" period for Venzualla was all the way back to the early 70s. Under Perez, it slowly went downhill. By the time Chavez came along, Venzuealla was a bankrupt nation.

You are so full of shit it's unbelievable. Your narrative is total fantasy. For one thing, Perez was also a hardcore leftwinger. The differences between his policies and those of Chavez are indistinguishable. Somehow you manage to absolve Chavez of all blame and place it on the guy who came before and the guy who came after. The reality is that they were just three ducks in a row, and life for people in Venezuela got steadily worse under them.

Chavez played the cards that was dealt to him. He operated inside the countries Constitution. And he made one hell of a difference. He cleaned up the corruption that Perez made and put Venzeualla back on track. The operative word here is Corruption. No matter what the government style you have, if you allow corruption to the degree that Perez did you are going to have a bankrupt country. And then you do the same with Meduro it's bankrupt again. Chavez threatened to put the corrupt politicians and corporate raiders in prison and they left the country. He didn't let them leave with their loot. He invested in the people's infrastructure. Perez and Meduro allow the corruption to happen and it bleeds the country dry. It's not about socialism, it's about corruption.

 

[Theowl32]