So, how many leftists will admit socialism failed Venezuela?

[francoHFW]

The US Government backed to Oil Companies denying Venzeual the ability to operate the oil fields and refineries. It has been going on for a couple of decades. These are the same oil companies that worked with the rich capitalists that stripped Venzuala of their entire economy that brought the original Revolalution into being in the first place. That "Wonder" years that you keep pointing was wonderful for the unlta rich but the average person was hungry, ill educated, unemployed and less. This is why they were sent packing. Unchecked Capitalism without any regulation means that this is what happens. As I said, Chavez could handle it but after he died, Meduro isn't a pimple on Chavez's ass. There was only one Chavez. He used socialism to put things back on track and prevented the corruption from returning. Meduro didn't know how to do that so he ended up moving to Dictatorship. The other option was to have another revolution. And that is still an option.

You keep not allowing Capitalism to accept it's role in this disaster. Unchecked Socialism used as a Government is just as bad as unchecked Capitalism used as a Government and both end up disasters. Neither one can be used for a Government.

That's the usual load of leftists horseshit when their god socialism is criticized. Most of the countries in the world are full of people who are hungry, ill educated and unemployed. Blaming the adoption of socialism on that is a diversion.

Capitalism isn't what causes poverty. The lack of capitalism is what causes poverty. The government's of all third world countries are profoundly corrupt. Whenever someone tries to start a business, there's a mountain of paper work and regulations to wade through, and then there is a line of government officials with their hands out.

Chavez didn't put things back on track. He sent the Venezuelan economy swirling down the toilet bowl. Things looked good to the poor for a short period while Chavez was looting the country's wealth, but the birds came home to roost, and when the money was all gone, they began starving. That's what always happens under socialism/communism.

Yeah, it's the fault of capitalism that Chavez ran off the people with the technical know-how to find and produce oil. What a laugh. Funny how that never happens under capitalism.

You seem to forget it was Perez that did most of the damage. He Nationalized the Oil Industry. And started the corruption in the Politicians. Not only were the seeds sown for failure, the whole damned garden was planted during the second half of the 1970s and beyond. Chavez had a real mess on his hands when he took power in 1998. And he was in the process of working on the corruption. Yes, many of the corrupt millionaires fled. Their only option was to stay and be thrown in prison. Chavez tried to work within the Venezuelan Constitution. But he died before he could get much done. When Meduro took over, Meduro used the very military that Chavez refused to use to quell the population. At that point, the US President Obama and then Trump laid even more economic sanctions. All of a sudden, starting in 2015, those very stores that Chavez set up to feed his people had long lines and empty shelves. Meduro wasn't smart enough to figure out how to deal with it. So he used military force. Chavez never did, he used his Military to get food to the people, get them medical help, and more. But the damage was already done after 1975 when the Oil Industry decided to not sell Valenzuela the badly needed equipment and support for it's oil industry, it's only means of national support and that was under Perez. If you can't find it, you can't pump it, you can't refine it, you can't ship it, it's pretty well worthless to have it in the ground. Chavez found work arounds for that and made inroads for the people. Meduro isn't a pimple off Chavez's ass and the corruption returned. But no where as bad as it was under Perez and before. You have to understand, the "Golden" period for Venzualla was all the way back to the early 70s. Under Perez, it slowly went downhill. By the time Chavez came along, Venzuealla was a bankrupt nation.

You are so full of shit it's unbelievable. Your narrative is total fantasy. For one thing, Perez was also a hardcore leftwinger. The differences between his policies and those of Chavez are indistinguishable. Somehow you manage to absolve Chavez of all blame and place it on the guy who came before and the guy who came after. The reality is that they were just three ducks in a row, and life for people in Venezuela got steadily worse under them.

Chavez played the cards that was dealt to him. He operated inside the countries Constitution. And he made one hell of a difference. He cleaned up the corruption that Perez made and put Venzeualla back on track. The operative word here is Corruption. No matter what the government style you have, if you allow corruption to the degree that Perez did you are going to have a bankrupt country. And then you do the same with Meduro it's bankrupt again. Chavez threatened to put the corrupt politicians and corporate raiders in prison and they left the country. He didn't let them leave with their loot. He invested in the people's infrastructure. Perez and Meduro allow the corruption to happen and it bleeds the country dry. It's not about socialism, it's about corruption.

What's amusing is that you really seem to think that Chavez himself wasn't corrupt.

Perez was no Hugo, that's ridiculous.

Don't have a clue...do you? Typical, Franco postings...

He may have been being glib and trolling but he's right. The Jobs were in the West and many men went west to the government jobs and then sent for the families later. They drove their cars, trucks, walked, rode the rails. whatever it took to get there.

So you're agreeing with Franco that we had Great Depressions about every 10 years prior to the actual Great Depression and that they were solved by westward expansion? Sure you want to jump on that train, Daryl? Next to R-Derp it's hard to find a more ignorant poster than Franco!

47 recessions and worse before the Great Depression. You'd think ignorance was an honor.... You never heard of going west and starting over oh, you ridiculous buffoon?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0O6Xhw0IZTxIVHOxFcVNby&cshid=1561323804377

Recessions are a naturally occurring economic part of life, Franco...we did in fact regularly have and recover from recessions before FDR oversaw what came to be known as The Great Depression! Going "west" as you put it was what was happening when the US was primarily an agrarian society...moving to big cities to work in industries instead of on farms was what changed the nation...not moving west!

I never said

Don't have a clue...do you? Typical, Franco postings...

He may have been being glib and trolling but he's right. The Jobs were in the West and many men went west to the government jobs and then sent for the families later. They drove their cars, trucks, walked, rode the rails. whatever it took to get there.

So you're agreeing with Franco that we had Great Depressions about every 10 years prior to the actual Great Depression and that they were solved by westward expansion? Sure you want to jump on that train, Daryl? Next to R-Derp it's hard to find a more ignorant poster than Franco!

47 recessions and worse before the Great Depression. You'd think ignorance was an honor.... You never heard of going west and starting over oh, you ridiculous buffoon?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0O6Xhw0IZTxIVHOxFcVNby&cshid=1561323804377

I'm only counting 35, and most of them were less than a year long. Furthermore, prior to the Great Depression, people didn't get laid off. They had their pay cut for a short time. The idea that government can make the economy run without a hiccup is what allows things like the Gulag to be created. Government caused most of the recession. It certainly caused the Great Depression.

Deregulating fool crony GOP government to be concise... Just like 1989 and 2008....your version of 1800 economy is hilarious. And I just finished a book on the Pullman strike of 1894...

Funny they seem to think they are. Forbes editorial page are babbling idiots and brainwashed functional morons-Cold War dinosaurs. "We are all socialists now!"--Finland prime minister when ObamaCare passed.

Capitalism is what pays for those social safety nets. Some countries have larger ones than others that don't make them socialist.

All the socialists and Democratic socialists, which is the same thing in the modern world, are talking is about fair capitalism with a good safety net. Remain calm and try the real world, super duper.

You really do not know what socialism is do you ?

It isn't communism, brainwashed functional moron. I have a masters in history dumbass. Read any book or Wikipedia and it will tell you there have been three definitions of socialism since Marx.his ideology proven wrong, the USSR version which turned out to be a totalitarian scam, and ever since the 20s and 30sit has meant faire capitalism with a good safety net always Democratic. Unless you live in GOP dupe America or a communist country with their propaganda.and the new Dupe theory that Nazis were socialists is hilarious everywhere in the world but you stupid assholes to be concise.
"We are all socialists now!"--Finland prime minister when Obama Care passed.

Maybe you should get a refund on that degree.

Google the socialist international which has been all democratic since the fifties at least. Little known facts in English speaking countries. Because we've got the great Savage Capitalist imperialist the conservative English and Americans telling us what to think of socialists.... Certainly the socialist parties in Scandinavia France Germany Italy Spain know what socialism is. So do Polly scientists and well-informed people.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

That's the usual load of leftists horseshit when their god socialism is criticized. Most of the countries in the world are full of people who are hungry, ill educated and unemployed. Blaming the adoption of socialism on that is a diversion.

Capitalism isn't what causes poverty. The lack of capitalism is what causes poverty. The government's of all third world countries are profoundly corrupt. Whenever someone tries to start a business, there's a mountain of paper work and regulations to wade through, and then there is a line of government officials with their hands out.

Chavez didn't put things back on track. He sent the Venezuelan economy swirling down the toilet bowl. Things looked good to the poor for a short period while Chavez was looting the country's wealth, but the birds came home to roost, and when the money was all gone, they began starving. That's what always happens under socialism/communism.

Yeah, it's the fault of capitalism that Chavez ran off the people with the technical know-how to find and produce oil. What a laugh. Funny how that never happens under capitalism.

You seem to forget it was Perez that did most of the damage. He Nationalized the Oil Industry. And started the corruption in the Politicians. Not only were the seeds sown for failure, the whole damned garden was planted during the second half of the 1970s and beyond. Chavez had a real mess on his hands when he took power in 1998. And he was in the process of working on the corruption. Yes, many of the corrupt millionaires fled. Their only option was to stay and be thrown in prison. Chavez tried to work within the Venezuelan Constitution. But he died before he could get much done. When Meduro took over, Meduro used the very military that Chavez refused to use to quell the population. At that point, the US President Obama and then Trump laid even more economic sanctions. All of a sudden, starting in 2015, those very stores that Chavez set up to feed his people had long lines and empty shelves. Meduro wasn't smart enough to figure out how to deal with it. So he used military force. Chavez never did, he used his Military to get food to the people, get them medical help, and more. But the damage was already done after 1975 when the Oil Industry decided to not sell Valenzuela the badly needed equipment and support for it's oil industry, it's only means of national support and that was under Perez. If you can't find it, you can't pump it, you can't refine it, you can't ship it, it's pretty well worthless to have it in the ground. Chavez found work arounds for that and made inroads for the people. Meduro isn't a pimple off Chavez's ass and the corruption returned. But no where as bad as it was under Perez and before. You have to understand, the "Golden" period for Venzualla was all the way back to the early 70s. Under Perez, it slowly went downhill. By the time Chavez came along, Venzuealla was a bankrupt nation.

You are so full of shit it's unbelievable. Your narrative is total fantasy. For one thing, Perez was also a hardcore leftwinger. The differences between his policies and those of Chavez are indistinguishable. Somehow you manage to absolve Chavez of all blame and place it on the guy who came before and the guy who came after. The reality is that they were just three ducks in a row, and life for people in Venezuela got steadily worse under them.

Chavez played the cards that was dealt to him. He operated inside the countries Constitution. And he made one hell of a difference. He cleaned up the corruption that Perez made and put Venzeualla back on track. The operative word here is Corruption. No matter what the government style you have, if you allow corruption to the degree that Perez did you are going to have a bankrupt country. And then you do the same with Meduro it's bankrupt again. Chavez threatened to put the corrupt politicians and corporate raiders in prison and they left the country. He didn't let them leave with their loot. He invested in the people's infrastructure. Perez and Meduro allow the corruption to happen and it bleeds the country dry. It's not about socialism, it's about corruption.

Every world leader plays the cards that are dealt to them. If socialism is so great, then why didn't it pull Venezuela out of its downward spiral?

Corruption is an intrinsic feature of socialism. Only fools believe it didn't exist under Chavez. The only difference is that Chavez still had some wealth left over from the capitalist period to loot. Corporate raiders are not "corrupt." They are the cure for corporate corruption. The entrenched management is where all the corruption lies, and socialist pigs like Chavez protect these scumbags. When you say "he didn't let them leave with their loot," you're saying he expropriated private property. You're admitting Chavez is a socialist thug.

It's about socialism, dumbass. You're litany of lies only fools the gullible. You're spouting propaganda. It's all lies that have already been debunked 1000 times.

The reason they won't admit socialism failed Venezuela is because they can't. They were too invested being on the side of chavez after he bad mouthed Bush at the UN. Especially when their gods in hollywood celebrated with him. Especially when chavez was so chummy with castro who they worship along with their god che.

If they admitted it, all of that long vested interest would crash down on their fucking heads.

They are so fucked that they have of course blame two things. One, they claim maduro is a tyrant and chavez of course was not. They are able to obfuscate blame from their god. They then circle all of it back to America being the reason and our free market that the entire middle class socialist world are desperate to get to.

They are demented double talking hypocrites. They are unable to see. Such sight has been taken from them.

Chavez only used his Military for humanitarian reasons. He didn't use them to attack the people. He tried to reverse the damage that the Perez nightmares had done and was on the way of doing that even with the crippling sanctions from the US and Europe. He inherited a bankrupt nation. Chavez didn't "Nationalize" the oil industry, Old Man Perez did in 1975 and him, his wife and his lackies sucked up the profits from it. When Venzuealla kicked Old Lady Perez to the curb when they elected Chavez the US and Europe could have made nice and business could have gone back to a mutual agreeable situation. But, no, the US and Europe was now in the habit of destroying any Leader that didn't allow their Oil Companies to go right back to raping and pillaging. Chavez would not tolerate Corporate Corruption like it was before Perez that destroyed Venzeuala and brought the likes of the Perez tag team. You seem to think that only socialism is corrupt and capitalism can never be corrupt.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

That's the usual load of leftists horseshit when their god socialism is criticized. Most of the countries in the world are full of people who are hungry, ill educated and unemployed. Blaming the adoption of socialism on that is a diversion.

Capitalism isn't what causes poverty. The lack of capitalism is what causes poverty. The government's of all third world countries are profoundly corrupt. Whenever someone tries to start a business, there's a mountain of paper work and regulations to wade through, and then there is a line of government officials with their hands out.

Chavez didn't put things back on track. He sent the Venezuelan economy swirling down the toilet bowl. Things looked good to the poor for a short period while Chavez was looting the country's wealth, but the birds came home to roost, and when the money was all gone, they began starving. That's what always happens under socialism/communism.

Yeah, it's the fault of capitalism that Chavez ran off the people with the technical know-how to find and produce oil. What a laugh. Funny how that never happens under capitalism.

You seem to forget it was Perez that did most of the damage. He Nationalized the Oil Industry. And started the corruption in the Politicians. Not only were the seeds sown for failure, the whole damned garden was planted during the second half of the 1970s and beyond. Chavez had a real mess on his hands when he took power in 1998. And he was in the process of working on the corruption. Yes, many of the corrupt millionaires fled. Their only option was to stay and be thrown in prison. Chavez tried to work within the Venezuelan Constitution. But he died before he could get much done. When Meduro took over, Meduro used the very military that Chavez refused to use to quell the population. At that point, the US President Obama and then Trump laid even more economic sanctions. All of a sudden, starting in 2015, those very stores that Chavez set up to feed his people had long lines and empty shelves. Meduro wasn't smart enough to figure out how to deal with it. So he used military force. Chavez never did, he used his Military to get food to the people, get them medical help, and more. But the damage was already done after 1975 when the Oil Industry decided to not sell Valenzuela the badly needed equipment and support for it's oil industry, it's only means of national support and that was under Perez. If you can't find it, you can't pump it, you can't refine it, you can't ship it, it's pretty well worthless to have it in the ground. Chavez found work arounds for that and made inroads for the people. Meduro isn't a pimple off Chavez's ass and the corruption returned. But no where as bad as it was under Perez and before. You have to understand, the "Golden" period for Venzualla was all the way back to the early 70s. Under Perez, it slowly went downhill. By the time Chavez came along, Venzuealla was a bankrupt nation.

You are so full of shit it's unbelievable. Your narrative is total fantasy. For one thing, Perez was also a hardcore leftwinger. The differences between his policies and those of Chavez are indistinguishable. Somehow you manage to absolve Chavez of all blame and place it on the guy who came before and the guy who came after. The reality is that they were just three ducks in a row, and life for people in Venezuela got steadily worse under them.

Chavez played the cards that was dealt to him. He operated inside the countries Constitution. And he made one hell of a difference. He cleaned up the corruption that Perez made and put Venzeualla back on track. The operative word here is Corruption. No matter what the government style you have, if you allow corruption to the degree that Perez did you are going to have a bankrupt country. And then you do the same with Meduro it's bankrupt again. Chavez threatened to put the corrupt politicians and corporate raiders in prison and they left the country. He didn't let them leave with their loot. He invested in the people's infrastructure. Perez and Meduro allow the corruption to happen and it bleeds the country dry. It's not about socialism, it's about corruption.

What's amusing is that you really seem to think that Chavez himself wasn't corrupt.

Perez was no Hugo, that's ridiculous.

He may have been being glib and trolling but he's right. The Jobs were in the West and many men went west to the government jobs and then sent for the families later. They drove their cars, trucks, walked, rode the rails. whatever it took to get there.

So you're agreeing with Franco that we had Great Depressions about every 10 years prior to the actual Great Depression and that they were solved by westward expansion? Sure you want to jump on that train, Daryl? Next to R-Derp it's hard to find a more ignorant poster than Franco!

47 recessions and worse before the Great Depression. You'd think ignorance was an honor.... You never heard of going west and starting over oh, you ridiculous buffoon?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0O6Xhw0IZTxIVHOxFcVNby&cshid=1561323804377

Recessions are a naturally occurring economic part of life, Franco...we did in fact regularly have and recover from recessions before FDR oversaw what came to be known as The Great Depression! Going "west" as you put it was what was happening when the US was primarily an agrarian society...moving to big cities to work in industries instead of on farms was what changed the nation...not moving west!

I never said

He may have been being glib and trolling but he's right. The Jobs were in the West and many men went west to the government jobs and then sent for the families later. They drove their cars, trucks, walked, rode the rails. whatever it took to get there.

So you're agreeing with Franco that we had Great Depressions about every 10 years prior to the actual Great Depression and that they were solved by westward expansion? Sure you want to jump on that train, Daryl? Next to R-Derp it's hard to find a more ignorant poster than Franco!

47 recessions and worse before the Great Depression. You'd think ignorance was an honor.... You never heard of going west and starting over oh, you ridiculous buffoon?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0O6Xhw0IZTxIVHOxFcVNby&cshid=1561323804377

I'm only counting 35, and most of them were less than a year long. Furthermore, prior to the Great Depression, people didn't get laid off. They had their pay cut for a short time. The idea that government can make the economy run without a hiccup is what allows things like the Gulag to be created. Government caused most of the recession. It certainly caused the Great Depression.

Deregulating fool crony GOP government to be concise... Just like 1989 and 2008....your version of 1800 economy is hilarious. And I just finished a book on the Pullman strike of 1894...

Capitalism is what pays for those social safety nets. Some countries have larger ones than others that don't make them socialist.

All the socialists and Democratic socialists, which is the same thing in the modern world, are talking is about fair capitalism with a good safety net. Remain calm and try the real world, super duper.

You really do not know what socialism is do you ?

It isn't communism, brainwashed functional moron. I have a masters in history dumbass. Read any book or Wikipedia and it will tell you there have been three definitions of socialism since Marx.his ideology proven wrong, the USSR version which turned out to be a totalitarian scam, and ever since the 20s and 30sit has meant faire capitalism with a good safety net always Democratic. Unless you live in GOP dupe America or a communist country with their propaganda.and the new Dupe theory that Nazis were socialists is hilarious everywhere in the world but you stupid assholes to be concise.
"We are all socialists now!"--Finland prime minister when Obama Care passed.

Maybe you should get a refund on that degree.

Google the socialist international which has been all democratic since the fifties at least. Little known facts in English speaking countries. Because we've got the great Savage Capitalist imperialist the conservative English and Americans telling us what to think of socialists.... Certainly the socialist parties in Scandinavia France Germany Italy Spain know what socialism is. So do Polly scientists and well-informed people.

One problem. None of those countries are socialist countries because Socialism is not a style of Governing, it's a style of economics. What you call Socialist Governments are actually Dictators, Oliarchies, Federal Republics, Social Democracies, Monarchies and Fascists. All use Capitalism and Socialism to make things operate on a day to day basis in a large scale. The only time you can only have Capitalism is in a very small scale like a single Corporation. When you have a Country, you are going to have to introduce Social Programs. And yes, Capitalism is going to have to pay for those social programs. The more complex (larger) the country is, the more complex the mix of Capitalism/Social programs are going to be. But each and every style of governing can be eaten up by Corruption. Take a good hard look at the US. We aren't far from it ourselves.

 

[danielpalos]

The left needs to merely learn how to use Capitalism for all of its capital worth in modern times.

 

[Theowl32]

They are so desperately trying to preserve the memory of their god hugo chavez.

What fucking losers.

 

[Oldstyle]

So we had Great Depressions about every 10 years? How in God's name did we manage to weather all of these "panics", Franco?

Went West

Don't have a clue...do you? Typical, Franco postings...

He may have been being glib and trolling but he's right. The Jobs were in the West and many men went west to the government jobs and then sent for the families later. They drove their cars, trucks, walked, rode the rails. whatever it took to get there.

I'm curious, Daryl...what do you think had more of an impact on job creation in the US...westward expansion...or the industrial revolution? Hint...the Franco train's leaving the station...you might want to jump off now!

Actually, both had a profound affect. I doubt if we could have had the huge industrial revolution without the resources of the west and the western expansion would not have expanded as fast without the industrial revolution. Both would have happened, just slower without the other. What's that, a trick question? I suggest you jump on or off that train but wait until it gets to at least 100 mph first.

So the industrial revolution that was taking place in Great Britain? Would THAT not have happened if western expansion hadn't taken place? Your premise is deeply flawed. The industrial revolution was taking place in the late 1700's. At the time only 5% of the American population lived west of the Appalachian mountains! Western expansion was NOT the engine driving the American economy.

 

[Oldstyle]

That's the usual load of leftists horseshit when their god socialism is criticized. Most of the countries in the world are full of people who are hungry, ill educated and unemployed. Blaming the adoption of socialism on that is a diversion.

Capitalism isn't what causes poverty. The lack of capitalism is what causes poverty. The government's of all third world countries are profoundly corrupt. Whenever someone tries to start a business, there's a mountain of paper work and regulations to wade through, and then there is a line of government officials with their hands out.

Chavez didn't put things back on track. He sent the Venezuelan economy swirling down the toilet bowl. Things looked good to the poor for a short period while Chavez was looting the country's wealth, but the birds came home to roost, and when the money was all gone, they began starving. That's what always happens under socialism/communism.

Yeah, it's the fault of capitalism that Chavez ran off the people with the technical know-how to find and produce oil. What a laugh. Funny how that never happens under capitalism.

You seem to forget it was Perez that did most of the damage. He Nationalized the Oil Industry. And started the corruption in the Politicians. Not only were the seeds sown for failure, the whole damned garden was planted during the second half of the 1970s and beyond. Chavez had a real mess on his hands when he took power in 1998. And he was in the process of working on the corruption. Yes, many of the corrupt millionaires fled. Their only option was to stay and be thrown in prison. Chavez tried to work within the Venezuelan Constitution. But he died before he could get much done. When Meduro took over, Meduro used the very military that Chavez refused to use to quell the population. At that point, the US President Obama and then Trump laid even more economic sanctions. All of a sudden, starting in 2015, those very stores that Chavez set up to feed his people had long lines and empty shelves. Meduro wasn't smart enough to figure out how to deal with it. So he used military force. Chavez never did, he used his Military to get food to the people, get them medical help, and more. But the damage was already done after 1975 when the Oil Industry decided to not sell Valenzuela the badly needed equipment and support for it's oil industry, it's only means of national support and that was under Perez. If you can't find it, you can't pump it, you can't refine it, you can't ship it, it's pretty well worthless to have it in the ground. Chavez found work arounds for that and made inroads for the people. Meduro isn't a pimple off Chavez's ass and the corruption returned. But no where as bad as it was under Perez and before. You have to understand, the "Golden" period for Venzualla was all the way back to the early 70s. Under Perez, it slowly went downhill. By the time Chavez came along, Venzuealla was a bankrupt nation.

You are so full of shit it's unbelievable. Your narrative is total fantasy. For one thing, Perez was also a hardcore leftwinger. The differences between his policies and those of Chavez are indistinguishable. Somehow you manage to absolve Chavez of all blame and place it on the guy who came before and the guy who came after. The reality is that they were just three ducks in a row, and life for people in Venezuela got steadily worse under them.

Chavez played the cards that was dealt to him. He operated inside the countries Constitution. And he made one hell of a difference. He cleaned up the corruption that Perez made and put Venzeualla back on track. The operative word here is Corruption. No matter what the government style you have, if you allow corruption to the degree that Perez did you are going to have a bankrupt country. And then you do the same with Meduro it's bankrupt again. Chavez threatened to put the corrupt politicians and corporate raiders in prison and they left the country. He didn't let them leave with their loot. He invested in the people's infrastructure. Perez and Meduro allow the corruption to happen and it bleeds the country dry. It's not about socialism, it's about corruption.

What's amusing is that you really seem to think that Chavez himself wasn't corrupt.

He wasn't but he did have some Generals that were. Meduro kept them on after Chavez died. They helped to keep Meduro in power even today.

Chavez wasn't corrupt? Gee, how was it that he amassed the huge personal fortune that he died with? You think that some Generals that were under Chavez were corrupt but that he wasn't? Does that even make sense to you? Seriously?

 

[danielpalos]

the right wing is trying to convince us of the alleged failure of socialism after 1929.

 

[Oldstyle]

the right wing is trying to convince us of the alleged failure of socialism after 1929.

Socialism inevitably fails because of human nature. When you don't reward personal ambition...when you take from those who achieve and give it to those who don't...invariably you foster mediocrity.

 

[bripat9643]

That's the usual load of leftists horseshit when their god socialism is criticized. Most of the countries in the world are full of people who are hungry, ill educated and unemployed. Blaming the adoption of socialism on that is a diversion.

Capitalism isn't what causes poverty. The lack of capitalism is what causes poverty. The government's of all third world countries are profoundly corrupt. Whenever someone tries to start a business, there's a mountain of paper work and regulations to wade through, and then there is a line of government officials with their hands out.

Chavez didn't put things back on track. He sent the Venezuelan economy swirling down the toilet bowl. Things looked good to the poor for a short period while Chavez was looting the country's wealth, but the birds came home to roost, and when the money was all gone, they began starving. That's what always happens under socialism/communism.

Yeah, it's the fault of capitalism that Chavez ran off the people with the technical know-how to find and produce oil. What a laugh. Funny how that never happens under capitalism.

You seem to forget it was Perez that did most of the damage. He Nationalized the Oil Industry. And started the corruption in the Politicians. Not only were the seeds sown for failure, the whole damned garden was planted during the second half of the 1970s and beyond. Chavez had a real mess on his hands when he took power in 1998. And he was in the process of working on the corruption. Yes, many of the corrupt millionaires fled. Their only option was to stay and be thrown in prison. Chavez tried to work within the Venezuelan Constitution. But he died before he could get much done. When Meduro took over, Meduro used the very military that Chavez refused to use to quell the population. At that point, the US President Obama and then Trump laid even more economic sanctions. All of a sudden, starting in 2015, those very stores that Chavez set up to feed his people had long lines and empty shelves. Meduro wasn't smart enough to figure out how to deal with it. So he used military force. Chavez never did, he used his Military to get food to the people, get them medical help, and more. But the damage was already done after 1975 when the Oil Industry decided to not sell Valenzuela the badly needed equipment and support for it's oil industry, it's only means of national support and that was under Perez. If you can't find it, you can't pump it, you can't refine it, you can't ship it, it's pretty well worthless to have it in the ground. Chavez found work arounds for that and made inroads for the people. Meduro isn't a pimple off Chavez's ass and the corruption returned. But no where as bad as it was under Perez and before. You have to understand, the "Golden" period for Venzualla was all the way back to the early 70s. Under Perez, it slowly went downhill. By the time Chavez came along, Venzuealla was a bankrupt nation.

And GOP sanctions and covert action since at least 2002, that have now made it impossible for them to sell their oil? LOL

They still are under economic sanctions and can't get the equipment nor the support to get the oil to sell much less process the oil. Only the Russians have come to their aid with their own equipment and support and will buy their oil. Of course, anyone making a deal with the Russians are making a deal with the Devil.

The US and Europe are still providing crippling economic programs to them. Vensuella has NO chance of pulling out of this mess.

They can't get the equipment nor the support because they don't pay their bills and they loot any company that is dumb enough to do business with them. Businesses aren't charities. They expect to get paid.

They can't get the western equipment because the western companies boycotted them in 1975 when they booted the corporate raiders out of the country and still do today. But they are getting that equipment and support from Russia today. Russia did an end run. Look for things to get better. Still, Meduro needs to go.

You mean they refused to do business with thugs who expropriated their property and didn't pay them what they were owed.

 

[danielpalos]

the right wing is trying to convince us of the alleged failure of socialism after 1929.

Socialism inevitably fails because of human nature. When you don't reward personal ambition...when you take from those who achieve and give it to those who don't...invariably you foster mediocrity.

capitalism failed in 1929 and socialism has been bailing out capitalism ever since.

 

[bripat9643]

You seem to forget it was Perez that did most of the damage. He Nationalized the Oil Industry. And started the corruption in the Politicians. Not only were the seeds sown for failure, the whole damned garden was planted during the second half of the 1970s and beyond. Chavez had a real mess on his hands when he took power in 1998. And he was in the process of working on the corruption. Yes, many of the corrupt millionaires fled. Their only option was to stay and be thrown in prison. Chavez tried to work within the Venezuelan Constitution. But he died before he could get much done. When Meduro took over, Meduro used the very military that Chavez refused to use to quell the population. At that point, the US President Obama and then Trump laid even more economic sanctions. All of a sudden, starting in 2015, those very stores that Chavez set up to feed his people had long lines and empty shelves. Meduro wasn't smart enough to figure out how to deal with it. So he used military force. Chavez never did, he used his Military to get food to the people, get them medical help, and more. But the damage was already done after 1975 when the Oil Industry decided to not sell Valenzuela the badly needed equipment and support for it's oil industry, it's only means of national support and that was under Perez. If you can't find it, you can't pump it, you can't refine it, you can't ship it, it's pretty well worthless to have it in the ground. Chavez found work arounds for that and made inroads for the people. Meduro isn't a pimple off Chavez's ass and the corruption returned. But no where as bad as it was under Perez and before. You have to understand, the "Golden" period for Venzualla was all the way back to the early 70s. Under Perez, it slowly went downhill. By the time Chavez came along, Venzuealla was a bankrupt nation.

You are so full of shit it's unbelievable. Your narrative is total fantasy. For one thing, Perez was also a hardcore leftwinger. The differences between his policies and those of Chavez are indistinguishable. Somehow you manage to absolve Chavez of all blame and place it on the guy who came before and the guy who came after. The reality is that they were just three ducks in a row, and life for people in Venezuela got steadily worse under them.

Chavez played the cards that was dealt to him. He operated inside the countries Constitution. And he made one hell of a difference. He cleaned up the corruption that Perez made and put Venzeualla back on track. The operative word here is Corruption. No matter what the government style you have, if you allow corruption to the degree that Perez did you are going to have a bankrupt country. And then you do the same with Meduro it's bankrupt again. Chavez threatened to put the corrupt politicians and corporate raiders in prison and they left the country. He didn't let them leave with their loot. He invested in the people's infrastructure. Perez and Meduro allow the corruption to happen and it bleeds the country dry. It's not about socialism, it's about corruption.

What's amusing is that you really seem to think that Chavez himself wasn't corrupt.

He wasn't but he did have some Generals that were. Meduro kept them on after Chavez died. They helped to keep Meduro in power even today.

Chavez wasn't corrupt? Gee, how was it that he amassed the huge personal fortune that he died with? You think that some Generals that were under Chavez were corrupt but that he wasn't? Does that even make sense to you? Seriously?

His daughter is worth $4 billion. The gullible leftists believe she earned that.

 

[Dale Smith]

The wall is stupid and only the Democrats have the solution or give a damn it seems. Pass the 2010 Democratic comprehensive immigration bill with ID card and enforce it. End of problem. It is the GOP that gives them an open invitation to work here.

So amnesty, right, dumb ass? And that would ALSO end the subsidizing of them? Fucking moron, Franki....that's you.

Except for the criminals yes. They are all working, all the propaganda about illegals getting welfare and voting is pure baloney.

Dude, you are a fucking IDIOT! OF course they get stipends, subsidies and food stamps. Are you REALLY that fucking stupid???? They don't vote? Who is stopping them if they have legal residency by showing a utility bill? Like they can check every single person and whose to say that those with the power to prevent them from casting a ballot would use that authority. You are beyond naive. Why do you think that leftards don't want any part of a voter ID law???? Kinda hard to "vote early and often" with that rule in place.

Off topic, but I thought you would enjoy this.

Sandy Hook Victim's Father Wins Defamation Suit; Alex Jones Sanctioned

Speaking of conspiracy theorists, Phillip Stallings was arrested. He's another nutjob, just like you.

Durham man charged with 56 counts of sexual exploitation of minor

He founded the Christian flat earth society.

You conspiracy nutjobs are birds of a feather.

Hey ya, Billy Sue! Conspiracies like how leftards believe that the ROOSKIES and Trump cheated Hildebeast and the leftards out of the 2016 election????

 

[francoHFW]

Funny they seem to think they are. Forbes editorial page are babbling idiots and brainwashed functional morons-Cold War dinosaurs. "We are all socialists now!"--Finland prime minister when ObamaCare passed.

Capitalism is what pays for those social safety nets. Some countries have larger ones than others that don't make them socialist.

All the socialists and Democratic socialists, which is the same thing in the modern world, are talking is about fair capitalism with a good safety net. Remain calm and try the real world, super duper.

You really do not know what socialism is do you ?

It isn't communism, brainwashed functional moron. I have a masters in history dumbass. Read any book or Wikipedia and it will tell you there have been three definitions of socialism since Marx.his ideology proven wrong, the USSR version which turned out to be a totalitarian scam, and ever since the 20s and 30sit has meant faire capitalism with a good safety net always Democratic. Unless you live in GOP dupe America or a communist country with their propaganda.and the new Dupe theory that Nazis were socialists is hilarious everywhere in the world but you stupid assholes to be concise.
"We are all socialists now!"--Finland prime minister when Obama Care passed.

I'm not Socialist in the least...did you want to try and take something of mine?

As a republican, how could you be for fair capitalism with a good safety net? Brainwashed functional moron.

 

[francoHFW]

So amnesty, right, dumb ass? And that would ALSO end the subsidizing of them? Fucking moron, Franki....that's you.

Except for the criminals yes. They are all working, all the propaganda about illegals getting welfare and voting is pure baloney.

Dude, you are a fucking IDIOT! OF course they get stipends, subsidies and food stamps. Are you REALLY that fucking stupid???? They don't vote? Who is stopping them if they have legal residency by showing a utility bill? Like they can check every single person and whose to say that those with the power to prevent them from casting a ballot would use that authority. You are beyond naive. Why do you think that leftards don't want any part of a voter ID law???? Kinda hard to "vote early and often" with that rule in place.

Off topic, but I thought you would enjoy this.

Sandy Hook Victim's Father Wins Defamation Suit; Alex Jones Sanctioned

Speaking of conspiracy theorists, Phillip Stallings was arrested. He's another nutjob, just like you.

Durham man charged with 56 counts of sexual exploitation of minor

He founded the Christian flat earth society.

You conspiracy nutjobs are birds of a feather.

Hey ya, Billy Sue! Conspiracies like how leftards believe that the ROOSKIES and Trump cheated Hildebeast and the leftards out of the 2016 election????

Like every Democrat and Republican in the intelligence committees and every head of every intelligence organization in the United States and every respected media and law enforcement in the world, brainwashed functional moron?

 

[bripat9643]

Except for the criminals yes. They are all working, all the propaganda about illegals getting welfare and voting is pure baloney.

Dude, you are a fucking IDIOT! OF course they get stipends, subsidies and food stamps. Are you REALLY that fucking stupid???? They don't vote? Who is stopping them if they have legal residency by showing a utility bill? Like they can check every single person and whose to say that those with the power to prevent them from casting a ballot would use that authority. You are beyond naive. Why do you think that leftards don't want any part of a voter ID law???? Kinda hard to "vote early and often" with that rule in place.

Off topic, but I thought you would enjoy this.

Sandy Hook Victim's Father Wins Defamation Suit; Alex Jones Sanctioned

Speaking of conspiracy theorists, Phillip Stallings was arrested. He's another nutjob, just like you.

Durham man charged with 56 counts of sexual exploitation of minor

He founded the Christian flat earth society.

You conspiracy nutjobs are birds of a feather.

Hey ya, Billy Sue! Conspiracies like how leftards believe that the ROOSKIES and Trump cheated Hildebeast and the leftards out of the 2016 election????

Like every Democrat and Republican in the intelligence committees and every head of every intelligence organization in the United States and every respected media and law enforcement in the world, brainwashed functional moron?

Wrong. Only the heads under Obama supported it, moron.

 

[francoHFW]

You are so full of shit it's unbelievable. Your narrative is total fantasy. For one thing, Perez was also a hardcore leftwinger. The differences between his policies and those of Chavez are indistinguishable. Somehow you manage to absolve Chavez of all blame and place it on the guy who came before and the guy who came after. The reality is that they were just three ducks in a row, and life for people in Venezuela got steadily worse under them.

Chavez played the cards that was dealt to him. He operated inside the countries Constitution. And he made one hell of a difference. He cleaned up the corruption that Perez made and put Venzeualla back on track. The operative word here is Corruption. No matter what the government style you have, if you allow corruption to the degree that Perez did you are going to have a bankrupt country. And then you do the same with Meduro it's bankrupt again. Chavez threatened to put the corrupt politicians and corporate raiders in prison and they left the country. He didn't let them leave with their loot. He invested in the people's infrastructure. Perez and Meduro allow the corruption to happen and it bleeds the country dry. It's not about socialism, it's about corruption.

What's amusing is that you really seem to think that Chavez himself wasn't corrupt.

He wasn't but he did have some Generals that were. Meduro kept them on after Chavez died. They helped to keep Meduro in power even today.

Chavez wasn't corrupt? Gee, how was it that he amassed the huge personal fortune that he died with? You think that some Generals that were under Chavez were corrupt but that he wasn't? Does that even make sense to you? Seriously?

His daughter is worth $4 billion. The gullible leftists believe she earned that.

link? To respected media for a change?

 

[Dale Smith]

Capitalism is what pays for those social safety nets. Some countries have larger ones than others that don't make them socialist.

All the socialists and Democratic socialists, which is the same thing in the modern world, are talking is about fair capitalism with a good safety net. Remain calm and try the real world, super duper.

You really do not know what socialism is do you ?

It isn't communism, brainwashed functional moron. I have a masters in history dumbass. Read any book or Wikipedia and it will tell you there have been three definitions of socialism since Marx.his ideology proven wrong, the USSR version which turned out to be a totalitarian scam, and ever since the 20s and 30sit has meant faire capitalism with a good safety net always Democratic. Unless you live in GOP dupe America or a communist country with their propaganda.and the new Dupe theory that Nazis were socialists is hilarious everywhere in the world but you stupid assholes to be concise.
"We are all socialists now!"--Finland prime minister when Obama Care passed.

I'm not Socialist in the least...did you want to try and take something of mine?

As a republican, how could you be for fair capitalism with a good safety net? Brainwashed functional moron.

Life comes with risks, you commie fuck. Why is it that you believe that a portion of my sweat equity exchanged for federal reserve notes should be confiscated to subsidize lazy, worthless, ignorant fucks like those of your ilk? Want to steal from me? Do it face to face instead of begging "gubermint" to do it for you so you don't have to see the one you stole from, ya gutless wonder.

 

[francoHFW]

You seem to forget it was Perez that did most of the damage. He Nationalized the Oil Industry. And started the corruption in the Politicians. Not only were the seeds sown for failure, the whole damned garden was planted during the second half of the 1970s and beyond. Chavez had a real mess on his hands when he took power in 1998. And he was in the process of working on the corruption. Yes, many of the corrupt millionaires fled. Their only option was to stay and be thrown in prison. Chavez tried to work within the Venezuelan Constitution. But he died before he could get much done. When Meduro took over, Meduro used the very military that Chavez refused to use to quell the population. At that point, the US President Obama and then Trump laid even more economic sanctions. All of a sudden, starting in 2015, those very stores that Chavez set up to feed his people had long lines and empty shelves. Meduro wasn't smart enough to figure out how to deal with it. So he used military force. Chavez never did, he used his Military to get food to the people, get them medical help, and more. But the damage was already done after 1975 when the Oil Industry decided to not sell Valenzuela the badly needed equipment and support for it's oil industry, it's only means of national support and that was under Perez. If you can't find it, you can't pump it, you can't refine it, you can't ship it, it's pretty well worthless to have it in the ground. Chavez found work arounds for that and made inroads for the people. Meduro isn't a pimple off Chavez's ass and the corruption returned. But no where as bad as it was under Perez and before. You have to understand, the "Golden" period for Venzualla was all the way back to the early 70s. Under Perez, it slowly went downhill. By the time Chavez came along, Venzuealla was a bankrupt nation.

You are so full of shit it's unbelievable. Your narrative is total fantasy. For one thing, Perez was also a hardcore leftwinger. The differences between his policies and those of Chavez are indistinguishable. Somehow you manage to absolve Chavez of all blame and place it on the guy who came before and the guy who came after. The reality is that they were just three ducks in a row, and life for people in Venezuela got steadily worse under them.

Chavez played the cards that was dealt to him. He operated inside the countries Constitution. And he made one hell of a difference. He cleaned up the corruption that Perez made and put Venzeualla back on track. The operative word here is Corruption. No matter what the government style you have, if you allow corruption to the degree that Perez did you are going to have a bankrupt country. And then you do the same with Meduro it's bankrupt again. Chavez threatened to put the corrupt politicians and corporate raiders in prison and they left the country. He didn't let them leave with their loot. He invested in the people's infrastructure. Perez and Meduro allow the corruption to happen and it bleeds the country dry. It's not about socialism, it's about corruption.

What's amusing is that you really seem to think that Chavez himself wasn't corrupt.

Perez was no Hugo, that's ridiculous.

So you're agreeing with Franco that we had Great Depressions about every 10 years prior to the actual Great Depression and that they were solved by westward expansion? Sure you want to jump on that train, Daryl? Next to R-Derp it's hard to find a more ignorant poster than Franco!

47 recessions and worse before the Great Depression. You'd think ignorance was an honor.... You never heard of going west and starting over oh, you ridiculous buffoon?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0O6Xhw0IZTxIVHOxFcVNby&cshid=1561323804377

Recessions are a naturally occurring economic part of life, Franco...we did in fact regularly have and recover from recessions before FDR oversaw what came to be known as The Great Depression! Going "west" as you put it was what was happening when the US was primarily an agrarian society...moving to big cities to work in industries instead of on farms was what changed the nation...not moving west!

I never said

So you're agreeing with Franco that we had Great Depressions about every 10 years prior to the actual Great Depression and that they were solved by westward expansion? Sure you want to jump on that train, Daryl? Next to R-Derp it's hard to find a more ignorant poster than Franco!

47 recessions and worse before the Great Depression. You'd think ignorance was an honor.... You never heard of going west and starting over oh, you ridiculous buffoon?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0O6Xhw0IZTxIVHOxFcVNby&cshid=1561323804377

I'm only counting 35, and most of them were less than a year long. Furthermore, prior to the Great Depression, people didn't get laid off. They had their pay cut for a short time. The idea that government can make the economy run without a hiccup is what allows things like the Gulag to be created. Government caused most of the recession. It certainly caused the Great Depression.

Deregulating fool crony GOP government to be concise... Just like 1989 and 2008....your version of 1800 economy is hilarious. And I just finished a book on the Pullman strike of 1894...

All the socialists and Democratic socialists, which is the same thing in the modern world, are talking is about fair capitalism with a good safety net. Remain calm and try the real world, super duper.

You really do not know what socialism is do you ?

It isn't communism, brainwashed functional moron. I have a masters in history dumbass. Read any book or Wikipedia and it will tell you there have been three definitions of socialism since Marx.his ideology proven wrong, the USSR version which turned out to be a totalitarian scam, and ever since the 20s and 30sit has meant faire capitalism with a good safety net always Democratic. Unless you live in GOP dupe America or a communist country with their propaganda.and the new Dupe theory that Nazis were socialists is hilarious everywhere in the world but you stupid assholes to be concise.
"We are all socialists now!"--Finland prime minister when Obama Care passed.

Maybe you should get a refund on that degree.

Google the socialist international which has been all democratic since the fifties at least. Little known facts in English speaking countries. Because we've got the great Savage Capitalist imperialist the conservative English and Americans telling us what to think of socialists.... Certainly the socialist parties in Scandinavia France Germany Italy Spain know what socialism is. So do Polly scientists and well-informed people.

One problem. None of those countries are socialist countries because Socialism is not a style of Governing, it's a style of economics. What you call Socialist Governments are actually Dictators, Oliarchies, Federal Republics, Social Democracies, Monarchies and Fascists. All use Capitalism and Socialism to make things operate on a day to day basis in a large scale. The only time you can only have Capitalism is in a very small scale like a single Corporation. When you have a Country, you are going to have to introduce Social Programs. And yes, Capitalism is going to have to pay for those social programs. The more complex (larger) the country is, the more complex the mix of Capitalism/Social programs are going to be. But each and every style of governing can be eaten up by Corruption. Take a good hard look at the US. We aren't far from it ourselves.

Well they think they are socialist and most of the people in the world do. You're splitting hairs here. I'm talking about countries being socialist not governments.and basically I'm just talkin about how they treat their workers middle class poor etc etc. And socialist also means democratic.

 

[francoHFW]

All the socialists and Democratic socialists, which is the same thing in the modern world, are talking is about fair capitalism with a good safety net. Remain calm and try the real world, super duper.

You really do not know what socialism is do you ?

It isn't communism, brainwashed functional moron. I have a masters in history dumbass. Read any book or Wikipedia and it will tell you there have been three definitions of socialism since Marx.his ideology proven wrong, the USSR version which turned out to be a totalitarian scam, and ever since the 20s and 30sit has meant faire capitalism with a good safety net always Democratic. Unless you live in GOP dupe America or a communist country with their propaganda.and the new Dupe theory that Nazis were socialists is hilarious everywhere in the world but you stupid assholes to be concise.
"We are all socialists now!"--Finland prime minister when Obama Care passed.

I'm not Socialist in the least...did you want to try and take something of mine?

As a republican, how could you be for fair capitalism with a good safety net? Brainwashed functional moron.

Life comes with risks, you commie fuck. Why is it that you believe that a portion of my sweat equity exchanged for federal reserve notes should be confiscated to subsidize lazy, worthless, ignorant fucks like those of your ilk? Want to steal from me? Do it face to face instead of begging "gubermint" to do it for you so you don't have to see the one you stole from, ya gutless wonder.

For the billionth time, Democrats and socialists want to raise taxes only on the rich, cut them on the rest. And make life a lot fairer to regular people. You are a brainwashed functional moron who snaps back to Communism every time. Ridiculous.