So when they say they want abortion safe, legal, and rare...

[JakeStarkey]

I do not understand the tat law at all.

 

[Katzndogz]

Such a law should protect doctors who refuse to perform abortion. There is an option of going to an abortionist who had a training session.

If women die or are mutilated because the abortionist hasn't quite gotten the hang of the procedure so what? These won't be getting any more abortions.

 

[NYcarbineer]

It's easy to claim there's no evidence when you ignore it.

Again:

Yet the training is to be provided by the Board of Registered Nursing, not by physicians, and the protocols for defining "supervision" have not been specified. There is nothing in the legislation requiring a physician to be present or on-site during an abortion.​

None of that is evidence that this procedure is less safe when performed by a trained professional who isn't a doctor.

Some professionals think it will be, as shown in the OP. Do you think you know better than them?

btw, why are you pretending this matters to you?

No pretense. Human life matters to me.

To progressives? Not so much. You can tell because they only want abortion to be legal. They don't give a damn about safe or rare.

You keep insisting that it's not safe and yet you cannot provide a shred of evidence to support that claim.

Why do you insist on doing that?

 

[Derideo_Te]

I do not understand the tat law at all.

Me neither. It just means that you have to go out drinking 2 nights in a row.

 

[The T]

...they don't give a shit about safe or rare, they just want it legal.

Gov. Brown to Sign Bill Legalizing Non-Physician Abortions in CA

A bill that would allow non-physicians to perform abortions in the first trimester of pregnancy is awaiting signature by Gov. Jerry Brown of California by Sep. 30. The bill, AB 154, passed both houses of the state legislature with strong support from Planned Parenthood and pro-choice groups. Planned Parenthood stands to benefit most directly from the bill, as non-physician staff at its clinics would be able to obtain abortion licenses.
One doctor--who identified himself as pro-choice--told Breitbart News that "the bill is a disaster since it sends us back 100 years to the problems of the complications from back-steet abortions." The bill's critics warn that the training provided to non-physician staff is weak, that supervision by physicians in clinics will be minimal, and that there is real risk of injury or death to women who will be treated in such conditions.

The California Medical Association has endorsed AB 154 because of "provisions for training in the bill and the amendments that clarify physician supervision." Yet the training is to be provided by the Board of Registered Nursing, not by physicians, and the protocols for defining "supervision" have not been specified. There is nothing in the legislation requiring a physician to be present or on-site during an abortion.

The bill permits licensed non-physicians to perform two kinds of abortion in the first trimester--by medication, and by aspiration, which requires the insertion of medical instruments into the uterus. Though many doctors agree that non-physicians could provide medications with few risks, the idea that a non-physician would perform an invasive procedure such as aspiration strikes many as rife with risks.

--

Opponents describe AB 154 as an effort by Planned Parenthood and other groups to profit from Obamacare, since the legislation will expand the number of patients eligible for the state Medi-Cal program, and Medi-Cal pays for abortion. They also dispute assurances about the bill's safety for women, arguing that there has been inadequate monitoring of California abortion clinics even prior to the passage of the new legislation.
​

Interesting. Moonbeam Brown is into legal murder...Isn't this what OCare is essentially? Who lives? Who Dies? And Gubmint controlling it all? And by people who have no business doing it in the first place...niiiice....NOT.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Since the author of this thread can provide no evidence that vacuum aspiration performed by professionals other than doctors is less safe,

I'll provide what I could find to the contrary:

Randomized, controlled trials conducted in both South Africa and Viet Nam, published in 2006, compared safety and rates of complications of first-trimester manual vacuum aspiration abortion by mid-level providers and doctors in clinics run by Marie Stopes International. All participating mid-level providers had received government-certified training under supervision and had experience of doing abortions at the primary-care level. In both countries, the abortions were done equally safely by the doctors and mid-level providers and women reported equal satisfaction with services from both types of providers.15

WHO | Provision of abortion by mid-level providers: international policy, practice and perspectives

So, in lieu of anything other than childish smartass remarks from daveman in rebuttal,

I'd say this debate is over.

 

[Contumacious]

...they don't give a shit about safe or rare, they just want it legal.

And the state should be able to NATIONALIZE women's uterus because........


.

 

[The T]

...they don't give a shit about safe or rare, they just want it legal.

And the state should be able to NATIONALIZE women's uterus because........


.

And THAT is the point...isn't it?

 

[Katzndogz]

Human beings have gotten medical care fron non professional witch doctors for longer than from medical school doctors. Non professionals have set broken bones and performed surgery. These are women who are looking to kill their children. Why would anyone even care who gives them an abortion, what the level of care is or even what kind of sterilization procedures are used?

 

[daveman]

How is the bill not safe and sound?

How is it you don't know you're a dumbass?

Letting barely-trained personnel perform what is essentially surgery? THIS is safe to you?

Moron.

It is not surgery. There is not cutting and suturing. It's a vacuum procedure, that is why a trained RN can do it. And the procedure takes less than 3 minutes to perform.

And it's still possible to kill someone by doing it wrong.

 

[daveman]

Here's the thing Dave; if this makes abortions much more dangerous in California, don't you think that the malpractice insurance rates for these will go through the roof? If they do, then it won't pay to allow non-doctors to perform the abortions in the first place. Of course, insurance underwriters have most likely already determined that there is no greater risk, and therefore rates will remain as is making this a feasible and "safe" option. Insurance underwriters have no skin in the game other than money, so I would tend to believe them over anyone else. You should too.

Malpractice insurance is not mentioned in the bill.

http://lldf.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/AB154Factsheet.pdf

Further, AB 154 does not require the non-physician abortionists to carry special malpractice insurance.​

That's true. You can read the text of the law here: Bill Text - AB-154 Abortion.

No mention of insurance.

So insurance underwriters have no skin in the game at all.

Okay there Dave. I guess clinics that perform abortions don't carry malpractice insurance.

I bet their rates go up.

 

[daveman]

An unwanted pregnancy is not something a woman should be forced to endure.

Considering that abortions due to rape and incest are a vanishingly small percentage of the reasons given for seeking abortion, perhaps women (and their partners) should take a few more precautions to prevent getting pregnant.

Does this mean that you support women having free access to contraception since that would be a precaution that would prevent them from becoming pregnant?

What is this obsession with free contraception? I have no obligation to fund anyone's sex life.

Condoms are cheap. Skip a couple of lattes and you can buy a 40-pack of condoms.

And frankly, anyone who's not in a long-term monogamous relationship and doesn't use a barrier contraceptive is an utter moron.

 

[daveman]

It is illegal for anyone to perform an abortion=government tyranny.

Or

A woman may choose whether or not to have an abortion=freedom from government tyranny.

Don't pretend you oppose tyranny. You're just fine with tyranny that supports your beliefs.

 

[daveman]

None of that is evidence that this procedure is less safe when performed by a trained professional who isn't a doctor.

Some professionals think it will be, as shown in the OP. Do you think you know better than them?

btw, why are you pretending this matters to you?

No pretense. Human life matters to me.

To progressives? Not so much. You can tell because they only want abortion to be legal. They don't give a damn about safe or rare.

You keep insisting that it's not safe and yet you cannot provide a shred of evidence to support that claim.

Why do you insist on doing that?

Good Gaea. You're really clueless, aren't you?

Abortion Pro life Planned Parenthood at Life Dynamics

The Blackmun Wall is a listing of the women killed by legal abortions, along with information regarding the circumstances of their death. We named this project after Harry Blackmun. Justice Blackmun was the U.S. Supreme Court justice who wrote the Roe v. Wade decision, which legalized abortion and launched America's Holocaust.

The abortion picture painted by pro-choice advocates is that the US Supreme Court and Justice Harry Blackmun's Roe vs. Wade and Doe vs. Bolton decisions turned abortionists into doctors. Abortion clinic operators like Planned Parenthood like to pretend that the decision written by Justice Blackmun made abortions safe and legal, but the truth is that making abortion legal never made abortion safe. Abortionists are the bottom-feeders of the medical profession and abortion procedures jeopardize the health of the mother in order to terminate pregnancy. 'Safe legal abortions' killed every one of the women on this site.

As you review this list, please remember that the hundreds of pro-choice women listed here represents only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to abortion deaths. We have statistics from both state and federal reporting agencies documenting many more abortion-related deaths than are listed here. However, because we had no further details on them we were not able to include them. Additionally, our research clearly indicates that, for a variety of reasons, the overwhelming majority of abortion-related deaths remain undiscovered.

Life Dynamics continues to investigate and catalogue the deaths of women that are due to legalized abortion. The Blackmun Wall will be updated, as new information is received. The wall is comprised of 29 panels, listing 347 women, along with the available details of each one's death. To get the details of each woman's abortion-related death, just click on her name. Plaques that list only a first name represent victims whose full name was not available, usually because of confidentiality or privacy constraints.​

But, hey, women are just walking genitals, right? It's not like they're people.

That's the way the left views women, by the way. The Democratic Party insists women only care about abortion and consequence-free sex.

And more evidence (not that you'll accept any of this):

Botched Abortions Send West Virginia Women to Hospitals Every Week | LifeNews.com

Abortion-related medical emergencies are occurring with alarming frequency, according to a West Virginia physician, who says he sees botched abortion patients “weekly.”

“We commonly (I personally probably at least weekly) see patients at Women and Children’s Hospital in our emergency room or our ultrasound center with complications from abortions at these centers in Charleston: so much for ‘safe and legal.’ These patients are told to come to our hospital because the abortion clinic providers do not have hospital privileges to care for their patients, so we must treat them as emergency ‘drop-ins,’” said Dr. Byron Calhoun, vice chairman of the Obstetrics and Gynecology Department at West Virginia University. The statement was made in a letter he wrote on June 31, 2013, to West Virginia Attorney General Patrick Morrisey.

“No other medical providers are allowed to care for patients, have no backup coverage, and then abandon them to the emergency room,” Calhoun wrote. “We would be held ethically and legally liable.

“The fantasy of women’s reproductive health care seems to allow these individuals who perform the abortions some special dispensation to provide substandard care.”​

Troubled Virginia Abortion Clinic Puts Bleeding Botched Abortion Patient in Hospital

Fairfax, Virginia – A 35-year old diabetic patient suffering from heavy bleeding after an abortion at Nova Women’s Healthcare was rushed to the hospital on March 3, 2012, according to recently obtained 911 records.

Pro-life activists were at the scene and videotaped the ambulance and fire units that responded to the 911 call and later sought the 911 records through an open records act request.

Nova Women’s Healthcare has a long history of abortion injuries and standard of care violations, including the death of a patient in 2002. Its owner, Mi Yong Kim, continues to operate the abortion clinic even though she was forced to surrender her medical license in 2007.

In 1998, Kim was disciplined for failing to determine the gestational age of pregnancy for one of her abortion patients. Board documents reveal that she assumed one patient’s pregnancy was 8 weeks, but in reality her baby was 26 weeks gestation. The ensuing botched abortion landed the woman in the hospital with life-threatening injuries
In 2005, Kim was disciplined after a patient died from an air embolism during an abortion. Kim improperly sedated her patient, failing to realize that she had gone into cardiac arrest. Kim did not attempt to resuscitate her.​

Is this safe to you?

 

[daveman]

Since the author of this thread can provide no evidence that vacuum aspiration performed by professionals other than doctors is less safe,

I'll provide what I could find to the contrary:

Randomized, controlled trials conducted in both South Africa and Viet Nam, published in 2006, compared safety and rates of complications of first-trimester manual vacuum aspiration abortion by mid-level providers and doctors in clinics run by Marie Stopes International. All participating mid-level providers had received government-certified training under supervision and had experience of doing abortions at the primary-care level. In both countries, the abortions were done equally safely by the doctors and mid-level providers and women reported equal satisfaction with services from both types of providers.15

WHO | Provision of abortion by mid-level providers: international policy, practice and perspectives

So, in lieu of anything other than childish smartass remarks from daveman in rebuttal,

I'd say this debate is over.

I'm sure you'd like to pretend that.

However, you were never interested in the debate to begin with. I know it, you know it.

So run along now.

Oh, and Marie Stopes? These women would not have been satisfied with their performance:

http://www.lifenews.com/2011/12/20/woman-dies-at-marie-stopes-abortion-business-in-australia/

http://www.lifenews.com/2013/07/22/marie-stopes-clinic-kills-yet-another-woman-in-a-failed-abortion/

http://www.lifenews.com/2010/05/24/int-1552/

 

[daveman]

...they don't give a shit about safe or rare, they just want it legal.

And the state should be able to NATIONALIZE women's uterus because........


.

Beats me. I've never called for that.

But I bet you were awful proud of yourself, weren't you?

 

[Mr. H.]

...they don't give a shit about safe or rare, they just want it legal.

And the state should be able to NATIONALIZE women's uterus because........


.

A woman's uterus is humanity's progeny.

But let's not mutter the future of humanity with the convenience of choice.

 

[Mr. H.]

Average cost of raising a child... $240,000.

That's 147,00 slurpees.

Or 421,232 Twinkies.

2,523 trips to Disney World.

One Maserati.

The things we attain to kill our children.

Amazing.

 

[Borillar]

...they don't give a shit about safe or rare, they just want it legal.

Nonsense.

This is a fallacious inference on your part, predicated solely on subjective opinion, not facts or evidence.

Consequently this is a lie, and a failed attempt to contrive a ‘controversy’ where none exists.

Perhaps you weren't listening to Obama's speech, about how our strike in Syria would save children's lives from chemical weapons. Too bad we use the chemical RU-486 all the time to kill them or prevent them each and every day.

There's your controversy. It shows a lack of concern on the liberal end. The life of a child is only viable if it suits the a political agenda.

"The life of a child is only viable if it suits the a political agenda." True, conservatives use abortion as a wedge issue all the time. Of course, once the kid is born, they don't give a shit about it. Social services ain't their thing. It's just a burden on society then.

 

[Mr. H.]

Nonsense.

This is a fallacious inference on your part, predicated solely on subjective opinion, not facts or evidence.

Consequently this is a lie, and a failed attempt to contrive a ‘controversy’ where none exists.

Perhaps you weren't listening to Obama's speech, about how our strike in Syria would save children's lives from chemical weapons. Too bad we use the chemical RU-486 all the time to kill them or prevent them each and every day.

There's your controversy. It shows a lack of concern on the liberal end. The life of a child is only viable if it suits the a political agenda.

"The life of a child is only viable if it suits the a political agenda." True, conservatives use abortion as a wedge issue all the time. Of course, once the kid is born, they don't give a shit about it. Social services ain't their thing. It's just a burden on society then.

True Conservatives use abortion as a reality check for Liberals who view the pre-born as so much garbage. Throw-away life.

Once the kid is born... he/she does in fact have life. And life is what Liberals have failed to manage beyond the relegation of a shithole of substantive existence. Perpetual and supplantive reliance on governmental support.

And that is wherein lies the Liberal vote.