So you want better paying jobs?

[Jantje_Smit]

Sure you can.

A internal market can operate from different rules from the outside market.

Of course, but it just won't be a free market.

And as you say, China is not about Free Trade. They are not doing it with us, and we should not be doing it for them.

Oh, I totally agree but the guys that rule your country want to trade with China because their slave labor is so cheap. And the argument they're using is free trade.

 

[danielpalos]

We keep hearing about this "widening gap between rich and poor" which has been the nucleus of an ongoing argument for higher wages, living wages, increasing the minimum wage, more taxation on "the wealthy" or whatever. They come armed with graphs and charts... the statistics to show you the middle class is in decline... the wealthy continue to amass great fortunes while the poor struggle to survive. Our hearts bleed as we're lectured on how we need more government regulations, more agencies and programs, more forced wage hikes and mandates, more restrictions and regulations heaped on big business in order to force them to pay up!

The problem is, we're hearing this from morons who don't understand how free market capitalism works. Oh, not all of them are illiterate morons, some have read books by European socialist propagandists and think they have everything all figured out. They don't seem to understand socialism doesn't work in practice like it works on paper. Every significant sized Socialist nation has failed and most of them have failed hideously. The ideas of people like Marx and Mao are responsible for ten's of millions of deaths. It is clearly a failed ideology by every standard.

Let's first dispatch a few myths and misconceptions. Wealthy people tend to gain wealth faster than poor people because they have a propensity for wealth acquisition... it's how they became wealthy for the most part. So it is perfectly natural in a free market capitalist system for the wealthiest to gain wealth faster than everyone else. It's like having a marathon race where there are runners who are seasoned veteran marathoners, runners who are couch potatoes, and some who run for the fun of it.... Now, in an actual race, who would you expect to lead and eventually win? The couch potato? Of course not... the seasoned vets are constantly going to gain more ground than the couch potatoes... that's perfectly natural and expected. The solution to the problem is not to hobble the veterans so they don't run as fast... the better idea would be to motivate the couch potatoes... train them up... make them better able to compete... turn them into veteran runners.

So this is where the idea of increasing their wages comes... but it's not as simple as merely passing some legislation that corporations MUST pay people $X per hour... that does not work in free market capitalism. What happens is, everything is on a sliding scale, so people make more but things cost more... so very shortly, we are back to square one. So come on Boss... get to the point... how do we increase the rate of pay for the average American in the average job without disrupting free market capitalism or causing inflation?

In order to increase pay you have to increase the demand for labor. In order to do that, you have to create new jobs. Not just new service sector, minimum wage, government or part-time jobs... but real, good paying, legitimate jobs. The way to do that is to encourage expansion of business... this requires taking several steps... lower taxes on corporations... or eliminate corporate tax altogether. Offer tax incentives for repatriated wealth... we have over $20 trillion in US wealth abroad... not doing us a bit of good. Let's bring it home and put it to work creating new business and new jobs. Finally, our trade deals need to account for the disparity in cost of labor. We can't compete with countries who pay their workers $1 a day and a bowl of rice... unless that's the standard we want to live with ourselves. Our trade policies have to take this into consideration and we have to apply tougher tariffs on import goods so our American companies can again compete domestically.

For example, let's use a computer keyboard... If you go to the store today to buy one, you will likely pay around $20 for a standard keyboard which is probably made in Indonesia. Now... An American company, with American workers and paying American taxes, can't buy the materials and assemble said keyboard for $20, much less sell it for that and make a profit. A similar American-made keyboard would be probably $40 or more. So if you have the choice to buy the same keyboard for $20 or $40... which would you likely purchase? Most people aren't going to care about where it's made, money is the deciding factor. However... IF you applied a tariff on Indonesian keyboards of say, $10 each... then the price of the Indonesian keyboard is $30 and the US company has the opportunity to compete... they cut some corners use some competitive ingenuity and manage to whittle their price down to $35... now you have a choice between a cheaply-made Indonesian keyboard for $30 or one that is built to last by Americans for $35. Some will still pick the cheaper keyboard but some will go with the quality.

Now my example is a little exaggerated, we'd never apply a 50% tariff on something... but the point is making imports more expensive so that American companies can compete again. When we change this dynamic, jobs will begin to generate as a result.. more jobs = more demand for labor = higher wages.

The problem with your argument is that we don't have free market capitalism in our economy; thus, your fallacy of false Cause.

Compared to our external trade, our internal trade is certainly RELATIVELY Free.

THe point is valid despite our internal market not being PURELY Free.

The point is not valid to extent it doesn't recognize the command economics of government. I already know Government provides us with a free trade area known as the several United States.

 

[Boss]

I think we have a different definition of what a free market is.

You certainly do. You are conflating all kinds of terms.

"China is full of capitalists"

Not "free market" capitalists. And "free trade" is not "free market" or "free market capitalism."

It's impossible to claim that you have a free market and close your borders to competition at the same time.

Free market capitalism has nothing to do with import/export trade. Two different animals.

A free market is a market system in which the prices for goods and services are set freely by consent between vendors and consumers, in which the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government, price-setting monopoly, or other authority.

We can't have a free market capitalist system shared with China because they are not free market capitalists and don't have a free market capitalist system. Trade deals with China as well as NAFTA and GATT are not part of our free market economy. In many respects, they are as damaging to free market capitalism as crony corporatism.

Nice to see we agree about the crony capitalists who run Washington. Funny thing, those are the same people that claim to be in favor of the "free" market, just like you.

And as you've demonstrated, many people simply don't comprehend what "free market capitalism" means. Others will take advantage of that fact to convince you something is "free market capitalism" when it's not.

Crony corporatists are not free market capitalists. Read the definition I posted above. Corporatists use the power of government to leverage an advantage over others. Most of our so-called "free trade" agreements benefit corporatists and destroy free market capitalism.

Our free market system would actually perform better without ANY trade deals. The problem is, we no longer produce things in the US. In order to have stuff, we have to import it. We can import stuff cheaper than we can produce it ourselves and the cycle actually kills jobs and destroys our free market system. The few American companies who DO produce stuff, have to compete with the cheap imports... driving wages DOWN.

The thread OP is not meant to spark an argument over the definition of free market capitalism. Anyone can go to wikipedia or Google and discover all they want to know about free market systems and free market capitalism. There are also thousands of books on the subject.

The topic is how to have better paying jobs.

In a free market system, better paying jobs are achieved by increasing the demand for labor. How does us buying a pair of sneakers from China for much less than we can make them, help create more demand for labor here? As you can see, it actually has the opposite effect.

Crony corporatists, who lobbied for the trade deals with China, take a $2 pair of sneakers, slap their label on, mark the price up to $75 and the American-made sneakers at $100 no longer appeal to the consumer who is driven by price... American jobs are lost... or pay stagnates.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

We can't have a free market capitalist system shared with China because they are not free market capitalists

no idea why you say that? When America consumers can voluntarily buy from anywhere in the world, including China, they have more capitalism not less and they richer not poorer.

make sense?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

The topic is how to have better paying jobs.

Steve Jobs had a better paying jobs because free people wanted to buy what he was selling. Its as simple as that unless you want libNazis to force you to pay what they want.

Make sense?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

In a free market system, better paying jobs are achieved by increasing the demand for labor.

wrong wrong wrong better paying jobs are achieved when labor is worth more.

 

[Boss]

We can't have a free market capitalist system shared with China because they are not free market capitalists

no idea why you say that? When America consumers can voluntarily buy from anywhere in the world, including China, they have more capitalism not less and they richer not poorer.

make sense?

Well, I say that because it's the truth. "More capitalism" and "richer/poorer" have nothing to do with how free market capitalist economies function. We can't freely compete with China who pays their labor $1 a day and a bowl of rice. The result is ZERO jobs in the US.

No... it actually DOES NOT make sense... We are allowing corporatists to get rich at the expense of American jobs and better pay for those jobs. That's not free market capitalism, it's crony corporatism.

 

[Boss]

In a free market system, better paying jobs are achieved by increasing the demand for labor.

wrong wrong wrong better paying jobs are achieved when labor is worth more.

Labor is worth more when the supply doesn't meet the demand. As of now, the supply exceeds the demand. That's the dynamic we need to change.

For example, let's look at nursing. There is a severe shortage of nurses nationwide. On average, a RN makes somewhere around $28 an hr or more, depending on where they live. This high rate of pay is a direct result of the shortage of nurses. If the market were flooded with nurses willing to work for $12 an hour, the average wouldn't be $28 anymore.

To increase the rate of pay for labor, you have to increase the demand for labor.

 

[HenryBHough]

Let's hear it for protectionism and goods you can no longer afford!

 

[Boss]

The topic is how to have better paying jobs.

Steve Jobs had a better paying jobs because free people wanted to buy what he was selling. Its as simple as that unless you want libNazis to force you to pay what they want.

Make sense?

Steve Jobs created a product that no one else had and everybody wanted. Supply and demand.

 

[Boss]

Let's hear it for protectionism and goods you can no longer afford!

I guess it comes down to... Do we want $30 sneakers and $20 keyboards... OR... Do we want good-paying American jobs? I'd rather have the good-paying American jobs... I don't mind paying more for my sneakers and keyboards.

 

[danielpalos]

We can't have a free market capitalist system shared with China because they are not free market capitalists

no idea why you say that? When America consumers can voluntarily buy from anywhere in the world, including China, they have more capitalism not less and they richer not poorer.

make sense?

because they have to go through, socialized customs, paid for with the (other) Peoples' tax monies; now do you understand dear?

 

[HenryBHough]

I'd rather have the good-paying American jobs... I don't mind paying more for my sneakers and keyboards.

Sneakers "AND" keyboards? So on your planet you're one of those filthy 1 percenters!!!!

 

[Boss]

The way to do that is to encourage expansion of business... this requires taking several steps... lower taxes on corporations... or eliminate corporate tax altogether.

I was thinking along similar lines myself.
My idea, though, is to put corporate taxes on a "sliding scale" based on the number of U.S. employees.
For example, multi-national U.S.-based corporations that have a larger percentage of outsourced workers (call centers in India, factories in Mexico, etc.) would be hit with tax penalties, while ones that have a higher percentage of workers here in the U.S. would gain tax credits based on that percentage. Higher percentages each way would result in more penalties/credits, possibly with a midpoint around 65-70% (U.S. v. foreign employees).
There could even be a one-time substantial tax credit for a company bringing a large number of jobs back to the U.S.
U.S. businesses with no international branches would only be subjected to a fair, competitive tax rate with no penalties/credits involved.

The only problem I have with your idea is the fact that crony corporatists control the politicians... so any legislation you pass is going to be chock-full of 'advantages' for them and we get screwed again.

Another thing is, when you implement this high tax rate on companies who have high overseas employment... guess what's going to happen? Those companies are going to pack up and move their HQ to some place where they don't get slammed with high taxation.

Here is a BETTER idea, and one that would change the game for real... eliminate ALL corporate taxation across the board. NONE.... NADDA! Corporate CEOs would still pay income tax on what they earn... no change there (unless we change the tax code). Just an elimination of the corporation's tax liability. This would immediately create thousands, if not millions, of new jobs in the US. Every foreign company on the planet would be beating our door down to locate here.

Next.. Declare a 10-year tax moratorium on monetary capital brought back into this country from abroad if it is used to expand, build or create new jobs in America.

I mentioned changing the tax code, as a final step... eliminate income tax and replace it with consumption tax. We are a consumer-driven nation... with the first two ideas, we will have created many new jobs giving many new consumers pockets full of money to spend. Win-win-win situation.

 

[Boss]

I'd rather have the good-paying American jobs... I don't mind paying more for my sneakers and keyboards.

Sneakers "AND" keyboards? So on your planet you're one of those filthy 1 percenters!!!!

Tellya what, bozo... Name me a society or culture where there is no Top 1% ???
...then we'll discuss this.

 

[OnePercenter]

We keep hearing about this "widening gap between rich and poor" which has been the nucleus of an ongoing argument for higher wages, living wages, increasing the minimum wage, more taxation on "the wealthy" or whatever. They come armed with graphs and charts... the statistics to show you the middle class is in decline... the wealthy continue to amass great fortunes while the poor struggle to survive. Our hearts bleed as we're lectured on how we need more government regulations, more agencies and programs, more forced wage hikes and mandates, more restrictions and regulations heaped on big business in order to force them to pay up!

The problem is, we're hearing this from morons who don't understand how free market capitalism works. Oh, not all of them are illiterate morons, some have read books by European socialist propagandists and think they have everything all figured out. They don't seem to understand socialism doesn't work in practice like it works on paper. Every significant sized Socialist nation has failed and most of them have failed hideously. The ideas of people like Marx and Mao are responsible for ten's of millions of deaths. It is clearly a failed ideology by every standard.

Let's first dispatch a few myths and misconceptions. Wealthy people tend to gain wealth faster than poor people because they have a propensity for wealth acquisition... it's how they became wealthy for the most part. So it is perfectly natural in a free market capitalist system for the wealthiest to gain wealth faster than everyone else. It's like having a marathon race where there are runners who are seasoned veteran marathoners, runners who are couch potatoes, and some who run for the fun of it.... Now, in an actual race, who would you expect to lead and eventually win? The couch potato? Of course not... the seasoned vets are constantly going to gain more ground than the couch potatoes... that's perfectly natural and expected. The solution to the problem is not to hobble the veterans so they don't run as fast... the better idea would be to motivate the couch potatoes... train them up... make them better able to compete... turn them into veteran runners.

So this is where the idea of increasing their wages comes... but it's not as simple as merely passing some legislation that corporations MUST pay people $X per hour... that does not work in free market capitalism. What happens is, everything is on a sliding scale, so people make more but things cost more... so very shortly, we are back to square one. So come on Boss... get to the point... how do we increase the rate of pay for the average American in the average job without disrupting free market capitalism or causing inflation?

In order to increase pay you have to increase the demand for labor. In order to do that, you have to create new jobs. Not just new service sector, minimum wage, government or part-time jobs... but real, good paying, legitimate jobs. The way to do that is to encourage expansion of business... this requires taking several steps... lower taxes on corporations... or eliminate corporate tax altogether. Offer tax incentives for repatriated wealth... we have over $20 trillion in US wealth abroad... not doing us a bit of good. Let's bring it home and put it to work creating new business and new jobs. Finally, our trade deals need to account for the disparity in cost of labor. We can't compete with countries who pay their workers $1 a day and a bowl of rice... unless that's the standard we want to live with ourselves. Our trade policies have to take this into consideration and we have to apply tougher tariffs on import goods so our American companies can again compete domestically.

For example, let's use a computer keyboard... If you go to the store today to buy one, you will likely pay around $20 for a standard keyboard which is probably made in Indonesia. Now... An American company, with American workers and paying American taxes, can't buy the materials and assemble said keyboard for $20, much less sell it for that and make a profit. A similar American-made keyboard would be probably $40 or more. So if you have the choice to buy the same keyboard for $20 or $40... which would you likely purchase? Most people aren't going to care about where it's made, money is the deciding factor. However... IF you applied a tariff on Indonesian keyboards of say, $10 each... then the price of the Indonesian keyboard is $30 and the US company has the opportunity to compete... they cut some corners use some competitive ingenuity and manage to whittle their price down to $35... now you have a choice between a cheaply-made Indonesian keyboard for $30 or one that is built to last by Americans for $35. Some will still pick the cheaper keyboard but some will go with the quality.

Now my example is a little exaggerated, we'd never apply a 50% tariff on something... but the point is making imports more expensive so that American companies can compete again. When we change this dynamic, jobs will begin to generate as a result.. more jobs = more demand for labor = higher wages.

Wealthy people tend to gain wealth faster than poor people because they have a propensity for wealth acquisition...

No. In an apples to apples investment, the returns on $1M are more than $50.00.

 

[OnePercenter]

I would rather pay $200 bucks for a pair of levis made by an American worker, then the paper thin ones they sell today for $60 bucks.

The true cost of Made in the USA Levi s 178 GlobalPost

When Levi's were made by American worker the retail cost was $25.00. The move by Levi Strauss was purely for greed.

 

[OnePercenter]

I don't really understand the circumstances of the specific cases you are talking about or exactly what your idea is with regard to credits for abuse and corruption or corporate fraud. I should hope that US courts award monetary settlements when possible to those who were shafted but I honestly don't think there is any way to recover money our Congress authorized to "bail out" anything... that's water under the bridge now.

I am a free market capitalist, not a corporatist. Crony capitalism is a major problem in our country and it needs to be stopped. I don't want the government picking winners and losers and I don't think I want to give them authority to "go after" companies they don't like or who some special interest cries and complains about. Leave the government out of corporate affairs other than oversight to prevent and punish fraud. Protect the air, water and food supply.... protect the environment from known threats (not made up AGW theory where CO2 is a 'pollutant') preserve natural wildlife habitats whenever possible... those are all fine by me... no problem.

There is no free market. The term is fake.

 

[Alystyr]

Here is a BETTER idea, and one that would change the game for real... eliminate ALL corporate taxation across the board. NONE.... NADDA! Corporate CEOs would still pay income tax on what they earn... no change there (unless we change the tax code). Just an elimination of the corporation's tax liability. This would immediately create thousands, if not millions, of new jobs in the US. Every foreign company on the planet would be beating our door down to locate here.

Yeah... that could work. A lot simpler than what I was thinking, and less prone to potential abuses.
Probably have quite a few countries mad at us for undercutting them and stealing their jobs... but they've been essentially stealing ours for decades, so - tough crap.

 

[OnePercenter]

This is a thought that could start a massive conversation.

First of all, I agree - quantity over quality has made us the throw-away culture, and it has spread virtually everywhere throughout our society. We think having eight cheap shirts is somehow better than two good shirts, that we just can't be happy with a 42" big screen, it has to be 60", a Hummer is better to have than a Ford, on and on and on.

Look at the lead-up to the Meltdown - people mortgaging their homes to the hilt (or above) to get cash to buy more shit. Or to pay off credit cards with which they had bought shit, only to run them back up buying more shit. We fill our homes with shit, and it just makes us want more shit, because we think that will somehow make us more happy.

I think a vast majority of this country's problems are cultural at their base, and this is at or near the top of the list.

Marketers have made us a throw-away culture. New PC's that are being sold today aren't upgradeable, making them disposable devices.

Mortgage service companies were the underlying cause of the housing crash. Ever hear of robo-signing?

Marketing trends determine culture changes.