Sodom and Gomorrah

[Newby]

She said all sins were the same so if god says eating shellfish is a sin and murder is a sin that's a little crazy to equate those 2 things, right?

If you want to be a numbnut and interpret incorrectly through 21st century understanding, it would look crazy yes. If you read it through the eyes of the people of that time and their understanding of the consequences of sin, ALL sin, as being death, then it is less crazy. It is not that one sin is not worse than another for the people at the time but the consequences bring you to the same place.

Again how much of this came from the priests attempting to bring order out of an otherwise chaotic society and set of rules and regulations and how much was conviction that it was God's will has been debated for millenia.

But when you focus on something like that instead of seeing the big picture that is being laid out there, you're going to get the Bible wrong every single time.

I get it, you only want me to focus on the good things the Bible says. That's the same stuff the nuns told me.

All the random genocide of God in the Old Testament, should be ignored. However when I ask believers if I should ignore the Old Testament, they say no. Whenever all the immoral things God did and God commands in the Old Testament are pointed out, they excuse them.

If I only had to take the New Testament seriously, the religion would make more sense to me.

How do you determine whether or not what God did in the Bible was immoral or not? What are you using to determine its 'immoralness'?

 

[Sky Dancer]

I think where there is a problem are the people who think the Bible is LITERAL truth, not symbolic wisdom.

 

[Dr.Drock]

If you want to be a numbnut and interpret incorrectly through 21st century understanding, it would look crazy yes. If you read it through the eyes of the people of that time and their understanding of the consequences of sin, ALL sin, as being death, then it is less crazy. It is not that one sin is not worse than another for the people at the time but the consequences bring you to the same place.

Again how much of this came from the priests attempting to bring order out of an otherwise chaotic society and set of rules and regulations and how much was conviction that it was God's will has been debated for millenia.

But when you focus on something like that instead of seeing the big picture that is being laid out there, you're going to get the Bible wrong every single time.

I get it, you only want me to focus on the good things the Bible says. That's the same stuff the nuns told me.

All the random genocide of God in the Old Testament, should be ignored. However when I ask believers if I should ignore the Old Testament, they say no. Whenever all the immoral things God did and God commands in the Old Testament are pointed out, they excuse them.

If I only had to take the New Testament seriously, the religion would make more sense to me.

If that is what you got from my post, I fear you are doomed to eternal ignorance my friend.

Another one of these "my interpretation is spot on, yours is ignorance" types.

 

[Dr.Drock]

If you want to be a numbnut and interpret incorrectly through 21st century understanding, it would look crazy yes. If you read it through the eyes of the people of that time and their understanding of the consequences of sin, ALL sin, as being death, then it is less crazy. It is not that one sin is not worse than another for the people at the time but the consequences bring you to the same place.

Again how much of this came from the priests attempting to bring order out of an otherwise chaotic society and set of rules and regulations and how much was conviction that it was God's will has been debated for millenia.

But when you focus on something like that instead of seeing the big picture that is being laid out there, you're going to get the Bible wrong every single time.

I get it, you only want me to focus on the good things the Bible says. That's the same stuff the nuns told me.

All the random genocide of God in the Old Testament, should be ignored. However when I ask believers if I should ignore the Old Testament, they say no. Whenever all the immoral things God did and God commands in the Old Testament are pointed out, they excuse them.

If I only had to take the New Testament seriously, the religion would make more sense to me.

How do you determine whether or not what God did in the Bible was immoral or not? What are you using to determine its 'immoralness'?

The same basic human decency that would cause 99% of humans to determine many of his acts to be immoral if they weren't followers.

 

[Newby]

I get it, you only want me to focus on the good things the Bible says. That's the same stuff the nuns told me.

All the random genocide of God in the Old Testament, should be ignored. However when I ask believers if I should ignore the Old Testament, they say no. Whenever all the immoral things God did and God commands in the Old Testament are pointed out, they excuse them.

If I only had to take the New Testament seriously, the religion would make more sense to me.

How do you determine whether or not what God did in the Bible was immoral or not? What are you using to determine its 'immoralness'?

The same basic human decency that would cause 99% of humans to determine many of his acts to be immoral if they weren't followers.

The same 'human decency' that tells you it's moral for a society to allow babies to be murdered in the womb?

Not to mention that also according to the Bible, you couldn't possibly know what God was supposed to have known, or still does. So, how can you make a moral judgment about whether an act was moral or not if you don't have all of the information?

 

[Dr.Drock]

How do you determine whether or not what God did in the Bible was immoral or not? What are you using to determine its 'immoralness'?

The same basic human decency that would cause 99% of humans to determine many of his acts to be immoral if they weren't followers.

The same 'human decency' that tells you it's moral for a society to allow babies to be murdered in the womb?

Not to mention that also according to the Bible, you couldn't possibly know what God was supposed to have known, or still does. So, how can you make a moral judgment about whether an act was moral or not if you don't have all of the information?

Lol I can't believe you'd use my post as a chance to play your holier than thou card..........................I'm shocked..............................................

Numbers 5:21,Numbers 5:27-28 NIV - here the priest is to put the woman - Bible Gateway

Numbers 5:27-28
New International Version (NIV)

27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

 

[Foxfyre]

I get it, you only want me to focus on the good things the Bible says. That's the same stuff the nuns told me.

All the random genocide of God in the Old Testament, should be ignored. However when I ask believers if I should ignore the Old Testament, they say no. Whenever all the immoral things God did and God commands in the Old Testament are pointed out, they excuse them.

If I only had to take the New Testament seriously, the religion would make more sense to me.

If that is what you got from my post, I fear you are doomed to eternal ignorance my friend.

Another one of these "my interpretation is spot on, yours is ignorance" types.

No it is another one of those you putting words in my mouth that I didn't say and/or twisting what I said to fit your world view instead of what I actually said things.

So you either did that intentionally dishonestly or you have a severe reading comprehension problem or you choose to remain ignorant. I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Dr.Drock]

If that is what you got from my post, I fear you are doomed to eternal ignorance my friend.

Another one of these "my interpretation is spot on, yours is ignorance" types.

No it is another one of those you putting words in my mouth that I didn't say and/or twisting what I said to fit your world view instead of what I actually said things.

So you either did that intentionally dishonestly or you have a severe reading comprehension problem or you choose to remain ignorant. I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Lol that's what you call giving the benefit of the doubt, cute.

You give vague lines about how Bible should be taken, since you're a christian I assessed that you meant the Bible should overall be taken positively. If the Bible talks about how believers should murder infidels who work on the Sabbath, I can't view the book as morally righteous if I'm suppose to take the book seriously.

How's that? Am I still doomed to an ignorance hell?

 

[Newby]

The same basic human decency that would cause 99% of humans to determine many of his acts to be immoral if they weren't followers.

The same 'human decency' that tells you it's moral for a society to allow babies to be murdered in the womb?

Not to mention that also according to the Bible, you couldn't possibly know what God was supposed to have known, or still does. So, how can you make a moral judgment about whether an act was moral or not if you don't have all of the information?

Lol I can't believe you'd use my post as a chance to play your holier than thou card..........................I'm shocked..............................................

Numbers 5:21,Numbers 5:27-28 NIV - here the priest is to put the woman - Bible Gateway

Numbers 5:27-28
New International Version (NIV)

27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

I'm playing 'holier than thou'?? You're a laugh a minute, you've been playing 'holier than God' this entire thread, so I wish you luck with that. And you can add every verse from the Bible on here that you feel makes your point, the problem is that no matter what anyone says to you about what you've posted, or in what context it is to be taken in, you clearly do not have the ability to intellectually understand what is being said to you. You've shown that over and over again in here.

Do you want a world without consequences based on what you find 'moral' or 'immoral'? Let's pretend that you believe there is a God for a moment, a God who knows all, what is in a person's heart, what will become of each soul when it passes, what should He do with the souls who have no compassion and are evil to the core? If there truly is a God and life after our existance here on Earth, how do you know that death is a terrible thing? You're operating from one narrow minded point of view, yet you act like your human mind is the end all of determining right from wrong. It truly is sad.

 

[Dr.Drock]

The same 'human decency' that tells you it's moral for a society to allow babies to be murdered in the womb?

Not to mention that also according to the Bible, you couldn't possibly know what God was supposed to have known, or still does. So, how can you make a moral judgment about whether an act was moral or not if you don't have all of the information?

Lol I can't believe you'd use my post as a chance to play your holier than thou card..........................I'm shocked..............................................

Numbers 5:21,Numbers 5:27-28 NIV - here the priest is to put the woman - Bible Gateway

Numbers 5:27-28
New International Version (NIV)

27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

I'm playing 'holier than thou'?? You're a laugh a minute, you've been playing 'holier than God' this entire thread, so I wish you luck with that. And you can add every verse from the Bible on here that you feel makes your point, the problem is that no matter what anyone says to you about what you've posted, or in what context it is to be taken in, you clearly do not have the ability to intellectually understand what is being said to you. You've shown that over and over again in here.

Do you want a world without consequences based on what you find 'moral' or 'immoral'? Let's pretend that you believe there is a God for a moment, a God who knows all, what is in a person's heart, what will become of each soul when it passes, what should He do with the souls who have no compassion and are evil to the core? If there truly is a God and life after our existance here on Earth, how do you know that death is a terrible thing? You're operating from one narrow minded point of view, yet you act like you're human mind is the end all of determining right from wrong. It truly is sad.

I don't believe in god, but if I did yes I would find myself infinitely holier, and I would find you infinitely holier than god as well. So I'm not playing holier than thou for just myself.

And now the smarter than thou, I so enjoy your posts . I would love to take an IQ test with you and compare results.

If death isn't a horrible thing, why the commandment against murder? If you murder someone and put them in a better place (heaven) aren't you doing them a favor?

I don't think my mind is the end all be all of determing right and wrong, but I know genocide/rape/incest are wrong, that doesn't make me Ghandi. The overwhelming majority of the human population would agree with that, but according to your bible your god wouldn't.

 

[Foxfyre]

Another one of these "my interpretation is spot on, yours is ignorance" types.

No it is another one of those you putting words in my mouth that I didn't say and/or twisting what I said to fit your world view instead of what I actually said things.

So you either did that intentionally dishonestly or you have a severe reading comprehension problem or you choose to remain ignorant. I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Lol that's what you call giving the benefit of the doubt, cute.

You give vague lines about how Bible should be taken, since you're a christian I assessed that you meant the Bible should overall be taken positively. If the Bible talks about how believers should murder infidels who work on the Sabbath, I can't view the book as morally righteous if I'm suppose to take the book seriously.

How's that? Am I still doomed to an ignorance hell?

I am sure to the ignorant, my 'lines' can appear vague. But my personal faith has absolutely nothing to do with accurate Bible scholarship which does not involve positive or negative points of view, but does require an interest in as accurate an understanding as we can achieve two or four thousand years after the texts were written.

You can either look at the intent of the text through the eyes of those who wrote it, and educate yourself as to how things are not always as they appear when viewed only through the 21st century experience, or you can remain ignorant.

Great scholars have spent lifetimes over centuries studying and delving into this stuff, comparing Biblical texts with other writing from those periods as well as what we can learn about those cultures from archeological and anthropological and ancient history studies. The Bible is by no means the only source by which that is done but it does give us insights into what was most likely intended in the words they used.

 

[mudwhistle]

Lol I can't believe you'd use my post as a chance to play your holier than thou card..........................I'm shocked..............................................

Numbers 5:21,Numbers 5:27-28 NIV - here the priest is to put the woman - Bible Gateway

Numbers 5:27-28
New International Version (NIV)

27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

I'm playing 'holier than thou'?? You're a laugh a minute, you've been playing 'holier than God' this entire thread, so I wish you luck with that. And you can add every verse from the Bible on here that you feel makes your point, the problem is that no matter what anyone says to you about what you've posted, or in what context it is to be taken in, you clearly do not have the ability to intellectually understand what is being said to you. You've shown that over and over again in here.

Do you want a world without consequences based on what you find 'moral' or 'immoral'? Let's pretend that you believe there is a God for a moment, a God who knows all, what is in a person's heart, what will become of each soul when it passes, what should He do with the souls who have no compassion and are evil to the core? If there truly is a God and life after our existance here on Earth, how do you know that death is a terrible thing? You're operating from one narrow minded point of view, yet you act like you're human mind is the end all of determining right from wrong. It truly is sad.

I don't believe in god, but if I did yes I would find myself infinitely holier, and I would find you infinitely holier than god as well. So I'm not playing holier than thou for just myself.

And now the smarter than thou, I so enjoy your posts . I would love to take an IQ test with you and compare results.

If death isn't a horrible thing, why the commandment against murder? If you murder someone and put them in a better place (heaven) aren't you doing them a favor?

I don't think my mind is the end all be all of determing right and wrong, but I know genocide/rape/incest are wrong, that doesn't make me Ghandi. The overwhelming majority of the human population would agree with that, but according to your bible your god wouldn't.

I figure someone who constantly confuses the Gospel of Jesus with the Hebrew Torah isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I get a kick out of seeing some folks trying to "holier than thou" each other.

 

[JoeB131]

Of course you like it. While completely missing the point.

Which was my point.

actually, I've heard a lot of explanations of the story... and they are all kind of evil.



But you now where I NEVER heard this story. Any time during the 12 years of Religious education that my parents paid a lot of good money for.

Never heard about Jephthah and his daugther, either.

Most religions are about very selective readings of the bible as much as atheist mocking is. You want to leave out the really bad stuff, we just love pointing them out.

To go back to the OP, most Christians know that God smote the gay folks in Sodom for being "Sodomites". Most don't know about the whole "offering your virgin daughters up for gang rape" or "getting drunk and having sex with them" parts concerning the supposedly "righteous" Lot.

You mention your knowledge of that but you seem to not recognize it's meaning.

Some of the folks that cling to their guns and their religion do so out of ignorance. Just because you attend meetings doesn't mean you understand what you're hearing at those meetings. Jesus often had to explain in detail the purpose of his sermons to his diciples. Even the 12 that lived with him didn't have a clue what his real purpose on Earth was.

Those who tend to question him feel they are intelligent for questioning their faith. I've been told by atheists that they can't believe in what they can't see. Then I respond by saying you must not believe in air. Usually I get a confused look from them.

I'm a bit puzzled by people who say they don't believe in God yet they blame him for everything when in fact man or the Devil is to blame. Yes, bad things happened in the Bible. It should be a lesson. Instead it becomes an excuse.

Wow, the last time I saw strawmen beaten that bad, I think it was the "Wizard of Oz". You managed to not actually address any point I made.

I don't offer those stories in the Bible for their "veracity". I don't think much of anything in the bible is true or accurate. I point out that the Churches have a habit of hiding stories that make their God look kind of like a dick.


Sending bears to maul children is a dick move.

Making a guy butcher his daughter because he made a foolish oath is a dick move.

And in 12 years of Catholic School and "bible study", I never heard EITHER of those stories.

You can't offer a book up as a source of morality and then ignore the fact it is chock full of truly immoral acts, many of them supposedly perpertrated by God, not man or the devil.

 

[koshergrl]

I don't know what church you were in, but I've been a Baptist for decades and have attended many, MANY churches of different denominations and I've never seen one where anything in the bible was "hidden".

I certainly know the story of Lot quite well. I think many of those who dabble may not be super familiar with all the ins and outs of the bible, but you need to get over your obsession about the "church" being this big bad thing that's out to get you. It's stupid and evidence of your stunted psychological growth. I don't know what damage your family did to you in the name of God and the bible, but it's time to recognize they did it, and not God, or the Bible.

If you're even capable of making those distinctions.

 

[Newby]

Lol I can't believe you'd use my post as a chance to play your holier than thou card..........................I'm shocked..............................................

Numbers 5:21,Numbers 5:27-28 NIV - here the priest is to put the woman - Bible Gateway

Numbers 5:27-28
New International Version (NIV)

27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

I'm playing 'holier than thou'?? You're a laugh a minute, you've been playing 'holier than God' this entire thread, so I wish you luck with that. And you can add every verse from the Bible on here that you feel makes your point, the problem is that no matter what anyone says to you about what you've posted, or in what context it is to be taken in, you clearly do not have the ability to intellectually understand what is being said to you. You've shown that over and over again in here.

Do you want a world without consequences based on what you find 'moral' or 'immoral'? Let's pretend that you believe there is a God for a moment, a God who knows all, what is in a person's heart, what will become of each soul when it passes, what should He do with the souls who have no compassion and are evil to the core? If there truly is a God and life after our existance here on Earth, how do you know that death is a terrible thing? You're operating from one narrow minded point of view, yet you act like you're human mind is the end all of determining right from wrong. It truly is sad.

I don't believe in god, but if I did yes I would find myself infinitely holier, and I would find you infinitely holier than god as well. So I'm not playing holier than thou for just myself.

And now the smarter than thou, I so enjoy your posts . I would love to take an IQ test with you and compare results.

If death isn't a horrible thing, why the commandment against murder? If you murder someone and put them in a better place (heaven) aren't you doing them a favor?

I don't think my mind is the end all be all of determing right and wrong, but I know genocide/rape/incest are wrong, that doesn't make me Ghandi. The overwhelming majority of the human population would agree with that, but according to your bible your god wouldn't.

If death isn't a horrible thing, why the commandment against murder? An excellent question, and I can tell you how I see it from my perspective. Again, you need to suppose that there is a God and there is a life after existence here on Earth. If you operate from that perspective, and you are God, then you know a person dying is not the end of their existence, but is the beginning of a better existence. You wouldn't see death in and of itself as a bad thing for a human being. However, that is completely separate from murder. Murder is the act of one human being taking something that we has humans find as precious from another human being. From our perspective, it is the worst thing you can do to another person. So, the heart/soul that can willingly do that to another person out of anger, revenge, greed, whatever, is not a good heart. So, the 'do not murder' has to do with the heart of the person committing the act, not necessarily with the object or person the act is against. All of the commandments are about making yourself a better person, they are centered on the self. To commit those acts against others harms you, as well as harming others obviously. But, the focus is on the person committing the acts. So, they are not sins solely because they harm other people, they are sins because the heart/soul is willing to commit those acts knowing that harm comes to others through them. And if you are capable of doing these things knowing that they harm others, what kind of a person are you then?

The other point that you seem hung up on is the 'loving God', and I go back to my question about consequences. So, what you're trying to infer here is that a 'loving God' would not punish, and if He does, then he's not 'loving'?

 

[Dr.Drock]

No it is another one of those you putting words in my mouth that I didn't say and/or twisting what I said to fit your world view instead of what I actually said things.

So you either did that intentionally dishonestly or you have a severe reading comprehension problem or you choose to remain ignorant. I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Lol that's what you call giving the benefit of the doubt, cute.

You give vague lines about how Bible should be taken, since you're a christian I assessed that you meant the Bible should overall be taken positively. If the Bible talks about how believers should murder infidels who work on the Sabbath, I can't view the book as morally righteous if I'm suppose to take the book seriously.

How's that? Am I still doomed to an ignorance hell?

I am sure to the ignorant, my 'lines' can appear vague. But my personal faith has absolutely nothing to do with accurate Bible scholarship which does not involve positive or negative points of view, but does require an interest in as accurate an understanding as we can achieve two or four thousand years after the texts were written.

You can either look at the intent of the text through the eyes of those who wrote it, and educate yourself as to how things are not always as they appear when viewed only through the 21st century experience, or you can remain ignorant.

Great scholars have spent lifetimes over centuries studying and delving into this stuff, comparing Biblical texts with other writing from those periods as well as what we can learn about those cultures from archeological and anthropological and ancient history studies. The Bible is by no means the only source by which that is done but it does give us insights into what was most likely intended in the words they used.

I agree they should be looked at through 21st century eyes, that's why it's so easy to realize that the people who made up many texts in the Bible were savages who's morals aren't up to today's standards, not even close.

And, again, you may think so but your interpretations of the same words that I'm reading aren't superior to mine. However I won't insecurely prop myself and bash your interpretations as "ignorant." As a believer, you have to error on the side that whatever is in that book is righteous or holy, so the bias is obvious.

 

[Dr.Drock]

I'm playing 'holier than thou'?? You're a laugh a minute, you've been playing 'holier than God' this entire thread, so I wish you luck with that. And you can add every verse from the Bible on here that you feel makes your point, the problem is that no matter what anyone says to you about what you've posted, or in what context it is to be taken in, you clearly do not have the ability to intellectually understand what is being said to you. You've shown that over and over again in here.

Do you want a world without consequences based on what you find 'moral' or 'immoral'? Let's pretend that you believe there is a God for a moment, a God who knows all, what is in a person's heart, what will become of each soul when it passes, what should He do with the souls who have no compassion and are evil to the core? If there truly is a God and life after our existance here on Earth, how do you know that death is a terrible thing? You're operating from one narrow minded point of view, yet you act like you're human mind is the end all of determining right from wrong. It truly is sad.

I don't believe in god, but if I did yes I would find myself infinitely holier, and I would find you infinitely holier than god as well. So I'm not playing holier than thou for just myself.

And now the smarter than thou, I so enjoy your posts . I would love to take an IQ test with you and compare results.

If death isn't a horrible thing, why the commandment against murder? If you murder someone and put them in a better place (heaven) aren't you doing them a favor?

I don't think my mind is the end all be all of determing right and wrong, but I know genocide/rape/incest are wrong, that doesn't make me Ghandi. The overwhelming majority of the human population would agree with that, but according to your bible your god wouldn't.

If death isn't a horrible thing, why the commandment against murder? An excellent question, and I can tell you how I see it from my perspective. Again, you need to suppose that there is a God and there is a life after existence here on Earth. If you operate from that perspective, and you are God, then you know a person dying is not the end of their existence, but is the beginning of a better existence. You wouldn't see death in and of itself as a bad thing for a human being. However, that is completely separate from murder. Murder is the act of one human being taking something that we has humans find as precious from another human being. From our perspective, it is the worst thing you can do to another person. So, the heart/soul that can willingly do that to another person out of anger, revenge, greed, whatever, is not a good heart. So, the 'do not murder' has to do with the heart of the person committing the act, not necessarily with the object or person the act is against. All of the commandments are about making yourself a better person, they are centered on the self. To commit those acts against others harms you, as well as harming others obviously. But, the focus is on the person committing the acts. So, they are not sins solely because they harm other people, they are sins because the heart/soul is willing to commit those acts knowing that harm comes to others through them. And if you are capable of doing these things knowing that they harm others, what kind of a person are you then?

The other point that you seem hung up on is the 'loving God', and I go back to my question about consequences. So, what you're trying to infer here is that a 'loving God' would not punish, and if He does, then he's not 'loving'?

I appreciate the explanation but still doesn't make sense. Let's say you painlessly murder someone, wouldn't you be doing them a favor by sending them to heaven? Wouldn't the murderer be doing a kind thing?

And no a loving god would punish. I just don't agree with his reasons for punishment and/or severity of punishment in many cases in the old testament.

 

[Dr.Drock]

I don't know what church you were in, but I've been a Baptist for decades and have attended many, MANY churches of different denominations and I've never seen one where anything in the bible was "hidden".

I certainly know the story of Lot quite well. I think many of those who dabble may not be super familiar with all the ins and outs of the bible, but you need to get over your obsession about the "church" being this big bad thing that's out to get you. It's stupid and evidence of your stunted psychological growth. I don't know what damage your family did to you in the name of God and the bible, but it's time to recognize they did it, and not God, or the Bible.

If you're even capable of making those distinctions.

I went to a catholic school for 4 years and a catholic church for 16 years including sunday school every week, never once heard any of the stories he's mentioning either.


So maybe it's not a nationwide church issue of hiding the disgusting stuff that's in the Bible, but it's not only his church who hides those parts.

 

[Newby]

I don't believe in god, but if I did yes I would find myself infinitely holier, and I would find you infinitely holier than god as well. So I'm not playing holier than thou for just myself.

And now the smarter than thou, I so enjoy your posts . I would love to take an IQ test with you and compare results.

If death isn't a horrible thing, why the commandment against murder? If you murder someone and put them in a better place (heaven) aren't you doing them a favor?

I don't think my mind is the end all be all of determing right and wrong, but I know genocide/rape/incest are wrong, that doesn't make me Ghandi. The overwhelming majority of the human population would agree with that, but according to your bible your god wouldn't.

If death isn't a horrible thing, why the commandment against murder? An excellent question, and I can tell you how I see it from my perspective. Again, you need to suppose that there is a God and there is a life after existence here on Earth. If you operate from that perspective, and you are God, then you know a person dying is not the end of their existence, but is the beginning of a better existence. You wouldn't see death in and of itself as a bad thing for a human being. However, that is completely separate from murder. Murder is the act of one human being taking something that we has humans find as precious from another human being. From our perspective, it is the worst thing you can do to another person. So, the heart/soul that can willingly do that to another person out of anger, revenge, greed, whatever, is not a good heart. So, the 'do not murder' has to do with the heart of the person committing the act, not necessarily with the object or person the act is against. All of the commandments are about making yourself a better person, they are centered on the self. To commit those acts against others harms you, as well as harming others obviously. But, the focus is on the person committing the acts. So, they are not sins solely because they harm other people, they are sins because the heart/soul is willing to commit those acts knowing that harm comes to others through them. And if you are capable of doing these things knowing that they harm others, what kind of a person are you then?

The other point that you seem hung up on is the 'loving God', and I go back to my question about consequences. So, what you're trying to infer here is that a 'loving God' would not punish, and if He does, then he's not 'loving'?

I appreciate the explanation but still doesn't make sense. Let's say you painlessly murder someone, wouldn't you be doing them a favor by sending them to heaven? Wouldn't the murderer be doing a kind thing?

And no a loving god would punish. I just don't agree with his reasons for punishment and/or severity of punishment in many cases in the old testament.

That's not the definition of murder though, murder is due to hate, antipathy, jealousy, revenge, etc... on the part of the murderer towards the victim.

Well, just because you don't agree with the severity of it or understand the need for it, that doesn't make it wrong in God's eyes.