Teacher Compensation

[iamwhatiseem]

Why do right wingers hate teachers? I truly don’t understand why they degrade them to the point where even a modest pension is considered excessive. You deserve what you get, failing schools, crumbling infrastructure, substandard teaching by u qualified teachers, because you don’t value the profession enough to demand quality AND pay for it.

You can’t compare US schools to homogenous countries like Finland but can to Canada. Canadian teachers have high levels of education, and are payed well. They are also respected as a profession.

Oh Good Lord... look through every post I have made here and you will see peppered in there how I appreciate teachers, how I had some great teachers, how my kids had some teachers that were really good.
HOWEVER... there are bad teachers. Too many. And they are protected by an ingrained system that shuffles them around, pays them to do nothing...or worse the Principle has his hands tied so just leaves them in the classroom.
That does not mean I hate teachers for f*cks sake.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Why do right wingers hate teachers?....

They don't.

Far too many conservatives have bought into the indoctrination myth, so they do hate teachers!

Overgeneralization

Far from it! This forum is sufficient proof!

You take this forum as representative of society as a whole?

No. Every news site, Facebook page, and other forums I visit show the same total disdain and ignorance about education from many conservatives.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Why do right wingers hate teachers? I truly don’t understand why they degrade them to the point where even a modest pension is considered excessive. You deserve what you get, failing schools, crumbling infrastructure, substandard teaching by u qualified teachers, because you don’t value the profession enough to demand quality AND pay for it.

You can’t compare US schools to homogenous countries like Finland but can to Canada. Canadian teachers have high levels of education, and are payed well. They are also respected as a profession.

Oh Good Lord... look through every post I have made here and you will see peppered in there how I appreciate teachers, how I had some great teachers, how my kids had some teachers that were really good.
HOWEVER... there are bad teachers. Too many. And they are protected by an ingrained system that shuffles them around, pays them to do nothing...or worse the Principle has his hands tied so just leaves them in the classroom.
That does not mean I hate teachers for f*cks sake.

Really? Who are these teachers? Can you name them personally?

The PRINCIPAL does not have their hands tied. They are more likely the problem in that he or she did not document the deficiencies you claim exist. Do you even know their responsibilities?

What makes you think these are "bad" teachers? What constitutes a bad teacher to you?

My money is you can't answer these questions because you are parroting talking points, just like you can't spell "principal".

 

[bodecea]

We as a nation demand a top notch education but are are too fucking cheap to pay for it.

We do not respect teachers.

We do not really respect education. Least of all in red states.

Ironically, we have people negatively comparing our education system with other countries....but refuse to have our education system model those countries they admire....things like Tracking, a good Vocational track, longer days/weeks/school years. The same when they compare public schools with private schools but refuse to model public schools on those private schools they admire: REQUIRING parents to participate/volunteer, giving schools the choice to accept/keep students.
American public schools are denigrated yet their hands are tied.

 

[boedicca]

That's more than the minimum wage workers who pay for your compensation will get from Social Security.

I'm sorry, you said "excessive". I don't think that after working for a career that 35% of working salary is excessive.

Move the goal posts much? You were the one that says that rank-and-file retirements are excessive. Sorry I got an education and worked for a career not at minimum wage. (Not)



>>>>

Here's what normal people have to do: save for their own retirements.

 

[hunarcy]

but it looks like its about 26 or so pages of DEVIANT Teachers in just 2 articles or pages over the years and its probably gotten worse as more Young Teachers are hired . ------------------------ and they ALL want more money and respect Hunarcy .

Such an impressive list! But, out of 3.2 MILLION? Still not many. But, don’t let this stop your ignorant jihad against educators.

 

[hunarcy]

That's more than the minimum wage workers who pay for your compensation will get from Social Security.

I'm sorry, you said "excessive". I don't think that after working for a career that 35% of working salary is excessive.

Move the goal posts much? You were the one that says that rank-and-file retirements are excessive. Sorry I got an education and worked for a career not at minimum wage. (Not)



>>>>

Here's what normal people have to do: save for their own retirements.

“Normal people” don’t get social security?

 

[boedicca]

That's more than the minimum wage workers who pay for your compensation will get from Social Security.

I'm sorry, you said "excessive". I don't think that after working for a career that 35% of working salary is excessive.

Move the goal posts much? You were the one that says that rank-and-file retirements are excessive. Sorry I got an education and worked for a career not at minimum wage. (Not)



>>>>

Here's what normal people have to do: save for their own retirements.

“Normal people” don’t get social security?

For people working today, SS is a net loss. We would all do better investing that money for ourselves. The unfunded liability is so huge that the Feds are going to "solve" it with inflation and cutting benefits. Anyone planning to rely on SS to support their retirement is fooling himself.

 

[hadit]

Why do right wingers hate teachers?....

They don't.

Far too many conservatives have bought into the indoctrination myth, so they do hate teachers!

No, they don't. They don't like the system that's in place right now that is failing to educate the children. They don't like the fact that it can be very difficult if not impossible to remove bad teachers and that good teachers are not often rewarded for their excellence. They don't like the fact that we spend far more per student than most countries that are outperforming our students. They don't like the fact that students feeling good about themselves and knowing how to put a condom on a banana SEEMS more important than whether they can read, write, and make change for a dollar.

But they don't hate teachers.

So, you have bought into the "indoctrination" hoax?

You just listed lie after lie, with a few half-truths thrown in for good measure. Why do you not know what you are doing?

Can you be specific?

 

[hunarcy]

That's more than the minimum wage workers who pay for your compensation will get from Social Security.

I'm sorry, you said "excessive". I don't think that after working for a career that 35% of working salary is excessive.

Move the goal posts much? You were the one that says that rank-and-file retirements are excessive. Sorry I got an education and worked for a career not at minimum wage. (Not)



>>>>

Here's what normal people have to do: save for their own retirements.

“Normal people” don’t get social security?

For people working today, SS is a net loss. We would all do better investing that money for ourselves. The unfunded liability is so huge that the Feds are going to "solve" it with inflation and cutting benefits. Anyone planning to rely on SS to support their retirement is fooling himself.

That’s a failure of government

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Why do right wingers hate teachers? I truly don’t understand why they degrade them to the point where even a modest pension is considered excessive. You deserve what you get, failing schools, crumbling infrastructure, substandard teaching by u qualified teachers, because you don’t value the profession enough to demand quality AND pay for it.

You can’t compare US schools to homogenous countries like Finland but can to Canada. Canadian teachers have high levels of education, and are payed well. They are also respected as a profession.

Oh Good Lord... look through every post I have made here and you will see peppered in there how I appreciate teachers, how I had some great teachers, how my kids had some teachers that were really good.
HOWEVER... there are bad teachers. Too many. And they are protected by an ingrained system that shuffles them around, pays them to do nothing...or worse the Principle has his hands tied so just leaves them in the classroom.
That does not mean I hate teachers for f*cks sake.

Really? Who are these teachers? Can you name them personally?

The PRINCIPAL does not have their hands tied. They are more likely the problem in that he or she did not document the deficiencies you claim exist. Do you even know their responsibilities?

What makes you think these are "bad" teachers? What constitutes a bad teacher to you?

My money is you can't answer these questions because you are parroting talking points, just like you can't spell "principal".

You again?....blah blah blah.

Of course I can name the bad teachers I had, and my kids had. Everyone knew who they were/are.
What is a bad teacher? What kind of a question is that anyway? You ever hear the term 'self-evident'?
Your money? According to you, you don't have any. So it is moot.

 

[hunarcy]

It is a case of priorities of your state and you get what you pay for

These states look at education as nonessential and are willing to hire those who may not be the best available. The bottom of the barrel is good enough to educate their youth

The best of the best do not major in education

Define "best".

Would you or anyone coming out of college work in a field that pays so poorly? It's called dedication.

The top 5% of graduating High school students

And it doesn't say much about your intelligence if you "dedicate" yourself to a job that doesn't pay well

Those top 5% of graduating high school students don't become plumbers or auto mechanics either, both of which pay more than teaching.

The fact that you don't understand is more about you than me.

So what?

IMO a plumber or auto mechanic is more important than a teacher

Someone has to teach the mechanic and plumber

 

[WorldWatcher]

Here's what normal people have to do: save for their own retirements.

Fine by me.

Pay me back the portion of my compensation that was invested in my pension with compound interest to mimic my investing for the last 40 years and we can call it even.

For my current employer the state requires 15% of my compensation as payment into the pension system each pay check.


>>>>

 

[boedicca]

That's more than the minimum wage workers who pay for your compensation will get from Social Security.

I'm sorry, you said "excessive". I don't think that after working for a career that 35% of working salary is excessive.

Move the goal posts much? You were the one that says that rank-and-file retirements are excessive. Sorry I got an education and worked for a career not at minimum wage. (Not)



>>>>

Here's what normal people have to do: save for their own retirements.

“Normal people” don’t get social security?

For people working today, SS is a net loss. We would all do better investing that money for ourselves. The unfunded liability is so huge that the Feds are going to "solve" it with inflation and cutting benefits. Anyone planning to rely on SS to support their retirement is fooling himself.

That’s a failure of government

No, it's the inevitable failure of a collectivist policy. Sooner or later you run out of other people's money.

 

[boedicca]

Here's what normal people have to do: save for their own retirements.

Fine by me.

Pay me back the portion of my compensation that was invested in my pension with compound interest to mimic my investing for the last 40 years and we can call it even.

For my current employer the state requires 15% of my compensation as payment into the pension system each pay check.


>>>>

We'd all like that deal. It ain't gonna happen.

What it means in reality is that as a government employee, your government officials have not fully funded your pension. They have spent much of the money on crap...and expect taxpayers to pay for your unfunded pension liability with higher taxes. The same thing applies for SS beneficiaries.

And, inevitably, something that cannot go on forever won't.

 

[hunarcy]

When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done. Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves. We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day. We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm: You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage. No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing. We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.

Who would take such a job? Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women. We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible. They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.

At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives. His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits. It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.

Who would take such a job? Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.

In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE. People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere. There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.

Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.

And now we come to TEACHERS.

In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government). Why would they do such a thing? Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).

But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do. Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage. Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.

But there is no deception here. Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road. They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere. The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it. (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).

So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit. As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."

Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done? If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else. Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth. The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.

Becoming a teacher costs money and tuition has risen to the level that paying your bills and student loans back exceed what a teacher makes. So you end up with teachers making the following decision. Do I work at something I love and live in poverty or take what I know and go into the private sector. I know because I have two daughter that chose teaching as a profession. One stayed and one left. The State of Colorado lost one heck of a calculus teacher who also coached a team to the state track meet and had great success there.

I seems you think teachers should simply accept their fate and not attempt to change it. That ship sailed a few weeks ago.

The sheer anger here on this board is down right stupid.

Envy and greed seem to rule.

The Envy and Greed is on the part of Teachers Unions who hold students hostage in order to extract excessive pensions and benefits.

“Excessive pensions “ Ridiculous

 

[boedicca]

When I was in retailing many years ago (with Hill's Department Stores), we had a job that needed to be done. Empty boxes of incoming stuff and stock the shelves. We were an absolutely-self-serve discount department store, so the most convenient time to do this was the middle of the day. We employed a small army of WOMEN under the following employment paradigm: You work from 10:00am to 2:00pm, with one 15-minute break, at slightly over minimum wage. No benefits, no vacation, no raises, no nothing. We were absolutely clear with applicants that this was the deal.

Who would take such a job? Happy housewives wanting a little extra money, moms who wanted to work a schedule that allowed them to continue being full-time moms, "retired" women. We had no trouble finding and keeping women to take these positions, and turnover was negligible. They required minimal supervision, and got the job done.

At around the same time, a friend of mine was an elected State Representative in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives. His salary was about $6,000/yr, with minimal benefits. It wasn't a full-time job, but the commitment was pretty-much full time, due to constituent needs.

Who would take such a job? Mostly lawyers, but also business owners who had flexible schedules, farmers, people with other sources of income (a working spouse?), people who had retired from their careers. The occasional crook.

In both of these cases, you have a "job" that DOES NOT PAY A LIVING WAGE. People considering that "job" have to assess, in advance, whether it satisfies their personal needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere. There is nothing unreasonable about this, on the part of the employer. The employer, in structuring the job in this way, recognizes that MOST PEOPLE will not be willing to take the job under these constraints, so they are passing on possibly the "best people for the job," but it's a tradeoff.

Not surprisingly, the legislators in Pennsylvania gradually over many years declared that Representative was a FULL-TIME job, and they have paid themselves accordingly, including splendid benefits, and a pension to die for, if you will excuse the totally inappropriate metaphor.

And now we come to TEACHERS.

In many states, the State has decided, wisely or not, to compensate their teachers at a wage that is significantly less than what an exemplary college graduate might make at a full-time job in the private sector (or even in Government). Why would they do such a thing? Well, there's June, July, and August, and the fact that it's arguably not a "full-time job" in the other months of the year (after the first couple years).

But it doesn't really matter WHY they pay their teachers what they do. Maybe they have made a decision, based on the best information they have available, that they can staff their schools adequately at this wage. Maybe they know that at that wage, they will not get the most economically ambitious grads, they will not get many STEM graduates, and High Schools Chemistry in, say, West Virginia, will be taught by History majors who have taken a couple of college Chem classes, rather than a grad with a degree in Organic Chemistry.

But there is no deception here. Applicants for teaching positions in those states know exactly what they will be making, and there is no promise of riches down the road. They have to decide whether that wage and those benefits will meet their needs, and if it doesn't, they need to look elsewhere. The State knows that many would-be teachers will go into another field or leave the state. But they have made that decision, and so be it. (One might point out that the teachers in states where teachers are WELL paid are rarely Phi Beta Kappa material either).

So massive strikes against such State Education Systems are bullshit. As with collective bargaining, they are a Leftist-led assault on the hapless taxpayers, in the name of "fairness."

Since when is it unfair to keep one's promises, as the respective States have done? If you don't like it, if you can't live on those wages, then go somewhere else. Most people in the Real World do this periodically throughout their working lives, with little trauma or gnashing of teeth. The state schools will have NO TROUBLE replacing each and every teacher who departs.

Becoming a teacher costs money and tuition has risen to the level that paying your bills and student loans back exceed what a teacher makes. So you end up with teachers making the following decision. Do I work at something I love and live in poverty or take what I know and go into the private sector. I know because I have two daughter that chose teaching as a profession. One stayed and one left. The State of Colorado lost one heck of a calculus teacher who also coached a team to the state track meet and had great success there.

I seems you think teachers should simply accept their fate and not attempt to change it. That ship sailed a few weeks ago.

The sheer anger here on this board is down right stupid.

Envy and greed seem to rule.

The Envy and Greed is on the part of Teachers Unions who hold students hostage in order to extract excessive pensions and benefits.

“Excessive pensions “ Ridiculous

If there is not money to pay for them, they are excessive.

I suggest you read up on the massive unfunded pension liabilities at the state and local levels across the country. It's quite shocking.

 

[pismoe]

but it looks like its about 26 or so pages of DEVIANT Teachers in just 2 articles or pages over the years and its probably gotten worse as more Young Teachers are hired . ------------------------ and they ALL want more money and respect Hunarcy .

Such an impressive list! But, out of 3.2 MILLION? Still not many. But, don’t let this stop your ignorant jihad against educators.

---------------------- its all in a moment of searching so its all i could find as i don't have access to all of YOUR friends , teachers and colleagues . Hey , look , as i said , my kids are grown and went to School many . many years ago so i just do this for Fun . As a way to measure Teacher success i just read articles about teaching incompetence , education failing and similar in the USA as i have already posted . At least , taxpayers that read my lists will be informed and they can either ignore or be informed about some teachers that they pay to molest and teach their kids , Its fun Hunarcy .

 

[hunarcy]

For most people and for most situations, Unions are inappropriate and destructive.

Think about it: An employment contract is one of the most important agreements in one's life. I agree to do some work, and another person or entity agrees to compensate me for it. If the compensation is unacceptable, I don't agree. If my work is found to be unacceptable, the other party can terminate the contract. If I find that my work is worth more than my compensation, I can bargain for better compensation, or take my services elsewhere, so that I can receive what I am worth. 90% (roughly) of the people in the private sector live their work lives according to these simple rules.

By introducing a Union into this scenario, a number of insidious factors come into play. It is not MY work that determines may compensation, but the value of EVERYONE's work, from the best to the worst. The best workers are discouraged from performing to their potential, because there is no advantage to doing so. The worst workers find ways of doing as little as possible (and sometimes even sabotaging the work), because they know that they are very unlikely to see any ramifications for their laziness. Personal advancement is discouraged because "standing out" is socially unacceptable in the union community.

Government employment is a lot like Union employment to start with, but then, when you formally adopt collective bargaining along with the "right" to strike, it becomes near evil. In true collective bargaining, both sides must be reasonable. If the Union demands (and gets) too much, the viability of the enterprise is threatened, and everybody loses. When a government union demands too much, management representatives are incentivized to make a good showing of "hard bargaining," but there is never any threat to the enterprise if the contract unreasonably favors the Union, so the end result is a gradual inflation of Union compensation to a level that has no rational relationship to what is being "produced" bye the Union members.

In our public dialog, one thing seldom mentioned is the outrageous generosity of the pensions. The reason it "flies under the radar" is that the outrage is not the monthly or annual AMOUNT of the pensions, it is the DURATION of them. Many government employees (especially teachers) are able to RETIRE in their EARLY 50's! This is insane! They will be, on average, on the public dole for 30 or more years while producing nothing! So when we talk about "low" teacher salaries, remember that their full compensation is more than twice that annual amount, because they will be on the pension-dole for AS LONG AS THEIR WORKING LIVES.

Anyone reading this who goes on cruises will note how many of your fellow cruisers are retired teachers. There are a couple reasons for this: (a) they make a good retirement income, and (b) they are healthy are retired for two or three times as long as their private sector counterparts who retire at a normal 65 or 66. For most people, the time to "have fun" is 8-10 years between retirement and, say 75, at which time activities are significantly curtailed due to the normal ravages of age. But if you retire at 53 (normal for a teacher), you have over 20 years of. healthy, well compensated retirement before you have to significantly slow down.

I travel from time to time. I typically save 5years for each cruise or tour I take

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Why do right wingers hate teachers?....

They don't.

Far too many conservatives have bought into the indoctrination myth, so they do hate teachers!

No, they don't. They don't like the system that's in place right now that is failing to educate the children. They don't like the fact that it can be very difficult if not impossible to remove bad teachers and that good teachers are not often rewarded for their excellence. They don't like the fact that we spend far more per student than most countries that are outperforming our students. They don't like the fact that students feeling good about themselves and knowing how to put a condom on a banana SEEMS more important than whether they can read, write, and make change for a dollar.

But they don't hate teachers.

So, you have bought into the "indoctrination" hoax?

You just listed lie after lie, with a few half-truths thrown in for good measure. Why do you not know what you are doing?

Can you be specific?

See the quote above.

Red text - lie.
Orange text - Half truth.

Those have been hashed and rehashed so many times here that it is boring beyond belief. yet education bashers refuse to educate themselves.