The Clausewitz Failure

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Self determination belongs to the people of the place not the people from someplace else.

(ORDER TO ASCERTAIN)

1. Reaffirms that the universal realization of the right of all peoples, including those under colonial, foreign and alien domination, to self-determination is a fundamental condition for the effective guarantee and observance of human rights and for the preservation and promotion of such rights; A/RES/49/148 (1994)

(COMMENT)

In the case of Steps to Self-Determination, neither group has the advantage over the other; each having the exact same access to the right. In fact, the UN offered the Partition Recommendation was presented to both demonstrating the equality.

The acceptance or rejection of the recommendation of one by one party has no impact on the acceptance or rejection by the other.

Implementation is a matter of degree. It is convenient for the Hostile Arab Palestinians to deny (reject the truth of activation) just as the UN Press Release PAL/169 which stated in part:

During today's brief meeting, Dr. Eduardo Morgan (Panama) said that this resolution of the Assembly merely "relieves responsibility. The Commission has not been dissolved. In fact the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."
​

Again, it is always convenient for the ignore the official report from the UN Palestine Commission; but not authoritative. A pro-Palestinian Argument must have the very same construction as any other argument. To be sound it must meet this criteria: (1) valid, (2) true premisses (obviously the conclusion is true as well by the definition of validity). If you insist on denying the UNPC announcement of implementation, or if you insist that the United Nation General Assembly did not recommend a two-state solution, then you must accept the fact that you are presenting an unsound concept.

Again, is you reject the idea that the Allied Powers (holding Title and Right to the territory) had the intent to assist all Jews in the re-establishment of the Jewish National Home, then you must accept the fact that you are presenting an unsound concept.

If you believe that self-determination "belongs to the people of the place" (that is assigning "place" as a criteria) then you must accept the fact that you are presenting an unsound concept. In the Charter there is no association to "place" in the right of self-determination --- as a criteria.

To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
​

The Hostile Arab Palestinians are self proclaimed Jihadist, Deadly Fedayeen, Hostile Insurgent, Radicalized Islamists, and the source of Asymmetric Violence in the area. For the Arab Palestinians to deny that they have some higher moral ground that permits them to commit the terrorist and criminal behaviors than they must accept the fact that you are presenting an unsound concept.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

1. Reaffirms that the universal realization of the right of all peoples, including those under colonial, foreign and alien domination, to self-determination is a fundamental condition for the effective guarantee and observance of human rights and for the preservation and promotion of such rights; A/RES/49/148 (1994)

Indeed, and the UN stated that the Palestinians are such people.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The acceptance or rejection of the recommendation of one by one party has no impact on the acceptance or rejection by the other.

Yes it does. You seem to forget what it was that was to be partitioned.

According to the UN the Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity. The partition of Palestine requires their consent.

 

[P F Tinmore]

If you believe that self-determination "belongs to the people of the place" (that is assigning "place" as a criteria) then you must accept the fact that you are presenting an unsound concept. In the Charter there is no association to "place" in the right of self-determination --- as a criteria.

Yes there is.

 

[Hollie]

If you believe that self-determination "belongs to the people of the place" (that is assigning "place" as a criteria) then you must accept the fact that you are presenting an unsound concept. In the Charter there is no association to "place" in the right of self-determination --- as a criteria.

Yes there is.

You refuted nothing. You made no case for your ".... because I say so", comment.

 

[P F Tinmore]

During today's brief meeting, Dr. Eduardo Morgan (Panama) said that this resolution of the Assembly merely "relieves responsibility. The Commission has not been dissolved. In fact the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."

There are many items in Resolution 181.

Can you provide a list of those that have not been implemented. Check out Chapter 3 paragraph 1.

https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/0/7F0AF2BD897689B785256C330061D253

 

[P F Tinmore]

If you believe that self-determination "belongs to the people of the place" (that is assigning "place" as a criteria) then you must accept the fact that you are presenting an unsound concept. In the Charter there is no association to "place" in the right of self-determination --- as a criteria.

Yes there is.

You refuted nothing. You made no case for your ".... because I say so", comment.

It is all over the place. Interesting that you know nothing about it.

Oh that's right, it is not mentioned in Israeli propaganda which is your only source of information.

 

[Hollie]

If you believe that self-determination "belongs to the people of the place" (that is assigning "place" as a criteria) then you must accept the fact that you are presenting an unsound concept. In the Charter there is no association to "place" in the right of self-determination --- as a criteria.

Yes there is.

You refuted nothing. You made no case for your ".... because I say so", comment.

It is all over the place. Interesting that you know nothing about it.

Oh that's right, it is not mentioned in Israeli propaganda which is your only source of information.

Nice dodge™

You also shuffled off when you were taken to task for your silly "Pal'istanians are calling for peace", nonsense.

Nice dodge™

 

[P F Tinmore]

If you believe that self-determination "belongs to the people of the place" (that is assigning "place" as a criteria) then you must accept the fact that you are presenting an unsound concept. In the Charter there is no association to "place" in the right of self-determination --- as a criteria.

Yes there is.

You refuted nothing. You made no case for your ".... because I say so", comment.

It is all over the place. Interesting that you know nothing about it.

Oh that's right, it is not mentioned in Israeli propaganda which is your only source of information.

Nice dodge™

You also shuffled off when you were taken to task for your silly "Pal'istanians are calling for peace", nonsense.

Nice dodge™

It is not a dodge, You should know these things. It is in the relevant documents like the Treaty of Lausanne, the Palestinian citizenship order, Resolution 181, and several UN resolutions. You should be familiar with these documents if you intend to post more than Israeli talking points.

 

[member]

America has very little room to talk in terms of converting "military success" in to a "Political Achievement." In the case of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, the have had Palestinians no real "military successes;" --- but they have had some significant and very damaging "political successes."

In play are several "cognitive distortions" mounted by and successfully exploited by them.

• The Hostile Arab-Palestinians (HoAP) have successfully convinced the international that Jihadism, Deadly Fedayeen Action, Insurgency, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Resistance Violence are entirely legal by distorting the intention and legality of these means.
• The HoAP have convinced the international community that it is the Israelis fault that peace initiatives have failed.
• The HoAP have convinced the international community that:

∆ Israel has been the invader from the very beginning.
∆ That all the land, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, was always Palestinian. Territory.
∆ That the Allied Powers, having by treaty, received the title and rights to the Mandate Territory, did not have the authority to set the conditions to recreate the Jewish National Home, that can preserve and protect the Jewish People from further exploitation and near annihilation under the false color of law.
​

• The HoAP and pro-Palestinian movement have somehow attached the tag of "apartheid" to Israel.​

These are just among the many distortions put out in the virtual knowledge space that have politically injured Israel.

The Question becomes how does Israel convert its "military successes" into "political achievements." How does Israel unmask that hides the radicalized Jihadist and Fedayeen --- as well as --- the Islamic terrorist and false resistance fighters for what they are?

V/R
R

Palestinians no real "military successes;" --- but they have had some significant and very damaging "political successes."​

That is because the Palestinians hold the legal and moral high ground.

Israel cannot bomb it way to legitimacy. ~ Ali Abunimah

"That is because the Palestinians hold the legal and moral high ground."

Looks that way doesn't it?













Real "moral."

 

[Hollie]

If you believe that self-determination "belongs to the people of the place" (that is assigning "place" as a criteria) then you must accept the fact that you are presenting an unsound concept. In the Charter there is no association to "place" in the right of self-determination --- as a criteria.

Yes there is.

You refuted nothing. You made no case for your ".... because I say so", comment.

It is all over the place. Interesting that you know nothing about it.

Oh that's right, it is not mentioned in Israeli propaganda which is your only source of information.

Nice dodge™

You also shuffled off when you were taken to task for your silly "Pal'istanians are calling for peace", nonsense.

Nice dodge™

It is not a dodge, You should know these things. It is in the relevant documents like the Treaty of Lausanne, the Palestinian citizenship order, Resolution 181, and several UN resolutions. You should be familiar with these documents if you intend to post more than Israeli talking points.

Nice dodge™

Indeed, you are again dodging. Where are the "Pal'istanians are calling for peace"?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Yes there is.

You refuted nothing. You made no case for your ".... because I say so", comment.

It is all over the place. Interesting that you know nothing about it.

Oh that's right, it is not mentioned in Israeli propaganda which is your only source of information.

Nice dodge™

You also shuffled off when you were taken to task for your silly "Pal'istanians are calling for peace", nonsense.

Nice dodge™

It is not a dodge, You should know these things. It is in the relevant documents like the Treaty of Lausanne, the Palestinian citizenship order, Resolution 181, and several UN resolutions. You should be familiar with these documents if you intend to post more than Israeli talking points.

Nice dodge™

Indeed, you are again dodging. Where are the "Pal'istanians are calling for peace"?

Whose version of peace are you talking about?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, it does. But not to the exclusion of all other.

1. Reaffirms that the universal realization of the right of all peoples, including those under colonial, foreign and alien domination, to self-determination is a fundamental condition for the effective guarantee and observance of human rights and for the preservation and promotion of such rights; A/RES/49/148 (1994)

Indeed, and the UN stated that the Palestinians are such people.

(COMMENT)

You will notice that it says ""all peoples, including those ..." --- Notice it doe not say that the Israelis are excluded. I notice that in in the 1947 Resolution did not say that the Jewish state that was proposed did not have self-determination as a right.

Nowhere does it say that the Israelis have less rights as the Arab Palestinians. Please try to put more than the eight words you've bolded into the complete thought (the salient point)..

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore et al,

This is utterly absurd.

The acceptance or rejection of the recommendation of one by one party has no impact on the acceptance or rejection by the other.

Yes it does. You seem to forget what it was that was to be partitioned.

According to the UN the Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity. The partition of Palestine requires their consent.

(COMMENT)

The Partition can go in place. And no where does it say that the Palestinians must consent before the Israelis can exercise their right.

The idea to territorial integrity only applies to those people who had a territory to start with.

Most Respectfully
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore et al,

This is utterly absurd.

The acceptance or rejection of the recommendation of one by one party has no impact on the acceptance or rejection by the other.

Yes it does. You seem to forget what it was that was to be partitioned.

According to the UN the Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity. The partition of Palestine requires their consent.

(COMMENT)

The Partition can go in place. And no where does it say that the Palestinians must consent before the Israelis can exercise their right.

The idea to territorial integrity only applies to those people who had a territory to start with.

Most Respectfully
R

Now you are back to Israeli talking points.

Who says they do not have territory?

Link?

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, it does. But not to the exclusion of all other.

1. Reaffirms that the universal realization of the right of all peoples, including those under colonial, foreign and alien domination, to self-determination is a fundamental condition for the effective guarantee and observance of human rights and for the preservation and promotion of such rights; A/RES/49/148 (1994)

Indeed, and the UN stated that the Palestinians are such people.

(COMMENT)

You will notice that it says ""all peoples, including those ..." --- Notice it doe not say that the Israelis are excluded. I notice that in in the 1947 Resolution did not say that the Jewish state that was proposed did not have self-determination as a right.

Nowhere does it say that the Israelis have less rights as the Arab Palestinians. Please try to put more than the eight words you've bolded into the complete thought (the salient point)..

Most Respectfully,
R

Reaffirms that the universal realization of the right of all peoples, including those under colonial, foreign and alien domination, to self-determination​

Indeed.
The French have self determination in France.
The British have self determination in Britain.
The Palestinians have self determination in Palestine.
The Jews have self determination in...ah...er...they are the colonial, foreign and alien domination.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The Arab prevented this themselves.

There is a reasonableness in the actual ability to implement process that were interrupted by the outbreak of hostilities.

During today's brief meeting, Dr. Eduardo Morgan (Panama) said that this resolution of the Assembly merely "relieves responsibility. The Commission has not been dissolved. In fact the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."

There are many items in Resolution 181.

Can you provide a list of those that have not been implemented. Check out Chapter 3 paragraph 1.

https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/0/7F0AF2BD897689B785256C330061D253

(COMMENT)

You cannot repatriate hostile parties that have pledge war.

Palestinian citizens residing in sovereignty of Israel, outside the City of Jerusalem, as well as Arabs and Jews who, not holding Palestinian citizenship, reside in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem shall, upon the recognition of independence Israel, become citizens of the State in which they are resident and enjoy full civil and political rights.
​

The Palestinians in Hostile contact, did not exchange recognition until the Oslo Accords. However, the Palestinians all have stated that Jihad and armed conflict is the only solution. It is as true today as it was in 1948. The right-of-return concept presupposes that the repatriation act does not endanger the stability and internal security of the Jewish state. That is not self evident.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al

You kill me.

P F Tinmore et al,

This is utterly absurd.

The acceptance or rejection of the recommendation of one by one party has no impact on the acceptance or rejection by the other.

Yes it does. You seem to forget what it was that was to be partitioned.

According to the UN the Palestinians have the right to territorial integrity. The partition of Palestine requires their consent.

(COMMENT)

The Partition can go in place. And no where does it say that the Palestinians must consent before the Israelis can exercise their right.

The idea to territorial integrity only applies to those people who had a territory to start with.

Most Respectfully
R

Now you are back to Israeli talking points.

Who says they do not have territory?

Link?

(COMMENT)

This gets you nowhere because you (and I mean you) have to specify what you claim as Palestine.

You actually never do that. But I actually don't see very much territory under which the Arab Palestinians exercise sovereignty.

So, just let me know what sovereign Palestinian territory you are talking about and we'll go from there. Make your claim clear.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is almost as absurd.

Indeed.
The French have self determination in France.
The British have self determination in Britain.
The Palestinians have self determination in Palestine.
The Jews have self determination in...ah...er...they are the colonial, foreign and alien domination.

(COMMENT)

When my grand-parents immigrated into the United States --- at what point were they assimilated? Did the have to be here 10 years, 15, 20, or just when?

Let me correct the last two lines there:
All the people of the territory to which the Mandate applied, people under the Palestine Order in Council and the 1925 citizenship law, both Jewish and Arab, have the right to self-determination.

Politically, the Jewish People declared independence on 14/15 May 1948. The Arab Palestinian rejected the path taken the the Jewish immigrant, reject the participation in self-governing institutions, and declined to participate in the Steps Preparatory to Independence --- having rejected inclusion.

So, the Arab Palestinians attempt to achieve through conflict what they could not achieve through diplomacy'

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[member]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, it does. But not to the exclusion of all other.

1. Reaffirms that the universal realization of the right of all peoples, including those under colonial, foreign and alien domination, to self-determination is a fundamental condition for the effective guarantee and observance of human rights and for the preservation and promotion of such rights; A/RES/49/148 (1994)

Indeed, and the UN stated that the Palestinians are such people.

(COMMENT)

You will notice that it says ""all peoples, including those ..." --- Notice it doe not say that the Israelis are excluded. I notice that in in the 1947 Resolution did not say that the Jewish state that was proposed did not have self-determination as a right.

Nowhere does it say that the Israelis have less rights as the Arab Palestinians. Please try to put more than the eight words you've bolded into the complete thought (the salient point)..

Most Respectfully,
R

"You will notice that it says "all peoples." --- Notice it does not say that the Israelis are excluded."

I don't think he's "noticed" anything since 1967......