The creationists are BACK

[AllieBaba]

Indoctrination is a loose term that implies hyperbole and I know where you are going with this.

Let's stick to religion.

I don't want public school teachers reading scripture to school children or leading prayer, and I support the law as it stands on this. Your assumption is that, if this were allowed, every teacher that engaged in this would be Christian. However, quite hypocritically, if a teacher started reading out of the Koran in front of class, you guys would have a shit fit.

Evoking religion as it relates to history? No problem. Religion is an important facet of history. I draw the line at proselytizing.

If you are convinced your children are being deprived without religion in the school, send the to parochial school. It's not against the law (quite logically) for religious schools that are privately funded to evoke religion in the class room.

It is against the law to use taxpayer dollars to support a glorified bible school.

Again, simple.

Again, how have your right's to practice your religion been hindered by the government?

The law can be changed. Leading a prayer is not "proselytizing". Why are you afraid of the little baby Jesus? He never hurt anyone.

You give away your bias by this statement..."glorified bible school". The idea of separation of church and state is to keep the government out of our lives so Americans can be free to experess their religious beliefs. There is nothing in the US Constitution about keeping any references to God out of our schools.

How come we have a chaplain in the congress who leads in prayer, but to lead in a prayer at school is against the law? Are you all afraid some little kid might find out Jesus loves him and not fall in line like everyone else?

The same thing can be said in reverse. Why must you have organized prayer in schools. What EDUCATINAL purpose does it serve? YOU belive that prayer is a good thing. Many do not. Why must our children be paraded through organized prayer to the benefit of your children?

The fact is, church does not belong in school in any form. It has no purpose there. I cannot understand this irrational NEED to take your personal belief in prayer into a public forum where there are children from all stripes. Is your time at home not enough? There is nothing to stop a student from praying. There is only laws that prevent them from being put in that situation without their consent or choice.

It belongs in school if children are acting according to their faith. Because our constitution guarantees that NOBODY will be discriminated against on the basis of religion. That means that politicians who are Mormon can't be told not to talk about their faith. That means teachers who are Catholic can't be required to hide their faith to get a job, and children can't be denied an education if they want to pray together during recess and lunch, or on the bus, or before their ABCs.

There is nothing in our Constitution that states that there should be no references to religion in school. This is just another bastardization of the very concept meant to protect us against anti-Christian yahoos seeking to subvert the Constitution and destroy religious freedom (and all freedom).

 

[FA_Q2]

The law can be changed. Leading a prayer is not "proselytizing". Why are you afraid of the little baby Jesus? He never hurt anyone.

You give away your bias by this statement..."glorified bible school". The idea of separation of church and state is to keep the government out of our lives so Americans can be free to experess their religious beliefs. There is nothing in the US Constitution about keeping any references to God out of our schools.

How come we have a chaplain in the congress who leads in prayer, but to lead in a prayer at school is against the law? Are you all afraid some little kid might find out Jesus loves him and not fall in line like everyone else?

The same thing can be said in reverse. Why must you have organized prayer in schools. What EDUCATINAL purpose does it serve? YOU belive that prayer is a good thing. Many do not. Why must our children be paraded through organized prayer to the benefit of your children?

The fact is, church does not belong in school in any form. It has no purpose there. I cannot understand this irrational NEED to take your personal belief in prayer into a public forum where there are children from all stripes. Is your time at home not enough? There is nothing to stop a student from praying. There is only laws that prevent them from being put in that situation without their consent or choice.

Nor can we understand the left's irrational need to teach condoms, homosexuality and other entirely personal things to school children.

You really can see the parallel and you STILL support prayer in school or am I incorrect on that assumption.


Yes, that is essentially the same issue on the other side. NONE of it should be in school. However, I would argue against excluding basic sexual education courses but I do not think that is what you were referring to when you said ‘teaching condoms.’

 

[SillyWabbit]

Let's not forget euthanasia and the ultimate goal of getting rid of all extra humans (extras being those who are sub standard, which includes a lot of different characteristics, including political and religious bent).

Apparently, girls are extra humans: Book Review: Unnatural Selection - WSJ.com

 

[Vanquish]

Speaking of "sanitizing everything they find offensive"...were you one of the ones CRYING when a mosque was proposed near Ground Zero?

Talk about relative religious sanitization! Christians are so in the minority, they have no idea when they're offending others...and just think...oh it's minor...just "live and let live" while we fuck you over.

Christians are not in the minority, they are the majority.
The majority of Americans (76%) identify themselves as Christians, mostly within Protestant and Catholic denominations, accounting for 51% and 25% of the population respectively.[4] Non-Christian religions (including Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism), collectively make up about 3.9% to 5.5% of the adult population. Another 15% of the adult population identifies as having no religious belief or no religious affiliation.[4] When asked, about 5.2% said they did not know, or refused to reply. According to the American Religious Identification Survey, religious belief varies considerably across the country: 59% of Americans living in Western states (the "Unchurched Belt") report a belief in God, yet in the South (the "Bible Belt") the figure is as high as 86%.

76% Christian and 15% no religious belief
When the minority tries to rule over the majority that is a form of Tyranny.
Atheist's do not have the right to silence the majority of this nations religious beliefs.
If a person does not believe in God it does no harm whatsoever to hear prayer, a cross, a Jewish cross or Muslim form of religion.
It is the minority of Atheist's who are trying to silence the freedom of religion.Especially Christian's.
Atheist's have the right not to believe,but not the right to cleanse public worship of religion.
It is the non believers who have become intolerant.

I meant majority. Just switched the words.

And the point still stands. In fact that was THE POINT I was trying to make. Thanks for making it for me. Christians are SO FAR into the majority that you have no idea what it means to feel like a minority in America.

It's amazing to me how we can have a country FOUNDED ON ESCAPING RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION and some conservatives can actually think that it's ok to push Christianity on people.

Most atheists don't want to silence anyone. They just want to be FREE from having doctrines forced on them in places where it's inappropriate.

 

[FA_Q2]

The law can be changed. Leading a prayer is not "proselytizing". Why are you afraid of the little baby Jesus? He never hurt anyone.

You give away your bias by this statement..."glorified bible school". The idea of separation of church and state is to keep the government out of our lives so Americans can be free to experess their religious beliefs. There is nothing in the US Constitution about keeping any references to God out of our schools.

How come we have a chaplain in the congress who leads in prayer, but to lead in a prayer at school is against the law? Are you all afraid some little kid might find out Jesus loves him and not fall in line like everyone else?

The same thing can be said in reverse. Why must you have organized prayer in schools. What EDUCATINAL purpose does it serve? YOU belive that prayer is a good thing. Many do not. Why must our children be paraded through organized prayer to the benefit of your children?

The fact is, church does not belong in school in any form. It has no purpose there. I cannot understand this irrational NEED to take your personal belief in prayer into a public forum where there are children from all stripes. Is your time at home not enough? There is nothing to stop a student from praying. There is only laws that prevent them from being put in that situation without their consent or choice.

It belongs in school if children are acting according to their faith. Because our constitution guarantees that NOBODY will be discriminated against on the basis of religion. That means that politicians who are Mormon can't be told not to talk about their faith. That means teachers who are Catholic can't be required to hide their faith to get a job, and children can't be denied an education if they want to pray together during recess and lunch, or on the bus, or before their ABCs.

There is nothing in our Constitution that states that there should be no references to religion in school. This is just another bastardization of the very concept meant to protect us against anti-Christian yahoos seeking to subvert the Constitution and destroy religious freedom (and all freedom).

All true and NONE of it has anything to do with the topic of religious doctrines (ID) being taught in school or guided prayer in school. All of the aforementioned freedoms DO exist though I am sure you can find the RARE instances where they were violated. I can tell you that I can recall only ONE teacher that ever hid his faith from me and that was because he was teaching a comparative religions course. On that hiding your faith in actually has some benefits for the class. Teachers are usually quite open about their faiths; they just refrain from using it in a classroom setting as part of a curriculum. What you and Fate seem to be pushing is NOT freedom to privately practice your faith but the right to take that faiths practices and perform them as a class.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

The same thing can be said in reverse. Why must you have organized prayer in schools. What EDUCATINAL purpose does it serve? YOU belive that prayer is a good thing. Many do not. Why must our children be paraded through organized prayer to the benefit of your children?

The fact is, church does not belong in school in any form. It has no purpose there. I cannot understand this irrational NEED to take your personal belief in prayer into a public forum where there are children from all stripes. Is your time at home not enough? There is nothing to stop a student from praying. There is only laws that prevent them from being put in that situation without their consent or choice.

Nor can we understand the left's irrational need to teach condoms, homosexuality and other entirely personal things to school children.

You really can see the parallel and you STILL support prayer in school or am I incorrect on that assumption.


Yes, that is essentially the same issue on the other side. NONE of it should be in school. However, I would argue against excluding basic sexual education courses but I do not think that is what you were referring to when you said ‘teaching condoms.’

That would be incorrect, I do not support sanctioned prayer in public school. I have no problem with basic sex-ed either... but teaching the mechanics of condom usage and homosexuality, etc. should be left to the parents.

 

[AllieBaba]

Speaking of "sanitizing everything they find offensive"...were you one of the ones CRYING when a mosque was proposed near Ground Zero?

Talk about relative religious sanitization! Christians are so in the minority, they have no idea when they're offending others...and just think...oh it's minor...just "live and let live" while we fuck you over.

Christians are not in the minority, they are the majority.
The majority of Americans (76%) identify themselves as Christians, mostly within Protestant and Catholic denominations, accounting for 51% and 25% of the population respectively.[4] Non-Christian religions (including Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism), collectively make up about 3.9% to 5.5% of the adult population. Another 15% of the adult population identifies as having no religious belief or no religious affiliation.[4] When asked, about 5.2% said they did not know, or refused to reply. According to the American Religious Identification Survey, religious belief varies considerably across the country: 59% of Americans living in Western states (the "Unchurched Belt") report a belief in God, yet in the South (the "Bible Belt") the figure is as high as 86%.

76% Christian and 15% no religious belief
When the minority tries to rule over the majority that is a form of Tyranny.
Atheist's do not have the right to silence the majority of this nations religious beliefs.
If a person does not believe in God it does no harm whatsoever to hear prayer, a cross, a Jewish cross or Muslim form of religion.
It is the minority of Atheist's who are trying to silence the freedom of religion.Especially Christian's.
Atheist's have the right not to believe,but not the right to cleanse public worship of religion.
It is the non believers who have become intolerant.

I meant majority. Just switched the words.

And the point still stands. In fact that was THE POINT I was trying to make. Thanks for making it for me. Christians are SO FAR into the majority that you have no idea what it means to feel like a minority in America.

It's amazing to me how we can have a country FOUNDED ON ESCAPING RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION and some conservatives can actually think that it's ok to push Christianity on people.

Most atheists don't want to silence anyone. They just want to be FREE from having doctrines forced on them in places where it's inappropriate.

Our pilgrims weren't escaping religious persecution. They were escaping STATE persecution....persecution of the state against their particular brand of faith. State persecution against them for daring to publicly state their beliefs and attempt to live by them in the open.

Is any of this sounding familiar????

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

All I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of some, and I say some, who have no problem inflicting their views on morality and what they deem normal and ok, on others' children, but then go berserk at the mere mention of God as an intrusion on their worldview.

 

[AllieBaba]

Exactly. They insist on the right to teach our children how and when to have sex, to prime them for early sex, to encourage them to pursue sex, and abortions, and homosexuality...

But by golly let one of those little bastards read the bible out loud in the lunchroom...KAPOW! Straight in the kisser!

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Exactly. They insist on the right to teach our children how and when to have sex, to prime them for early sex, to encourage them to pursue sex, and abortions, and homosexuality...

But by golly let one of those little bastards read the bible out loud in the lunchroom...KAPOW! Straight in the kisser!

And no doubt, this is about the time when they chime in and tell how we're entitled be idiots who believe in the mythical, white-bearded Godman, but they, being the smart ones, believe in science... blah, blah, blah.

 

[Mustang]

Let's not forget euthanasia and the ultimate goal of getting rid of all extra humans (extras being those who are sub standard, which includes a lot of different characteristics, including political and religious bent).

You might want to be careful what you say or you'll end up at the top of the euthanasia list.

 

[Contumacious]

Gravity is just a theory too

Gravity is a 100% proven theory that has been scientifically verified and can be repeated.The so called pseudo theory of evolution has not been proven, nor is it a verifiable fact that can be repeated in the lab..

IT MATTERS WHAT CANDIDATES THINK

Does it matter what presidential candidates believe about biological evolution? ....considers that schooling is mandatory.

The problem is that creationism and its latest intellectual spawn, intelligent design, are clearly religious teachings. So a local school board or state would be imposing religious teachings on all students if they required the teaching of creationism or intelligent design in public schools. The U.S. Supreme court acknowledged this fact in 1987 when it ruled in Edwards v. Aguillard against a Louisiana law that required the teaching of creationism whenever evolutionary biology was taught. The Court struck down the Louisiana law because it "impermissibly endorses religion by advancing the religious belief that a supernatural being created humankind." In 2005, a federal district court found in Kitzmiller v. Dover that the goal of the local school board's mandate that schools teach intelligent design "was to promote religion in the public school classroom."

.

 

[Vanquish]

State persecution of religion IS religious persecution. *sigh*

And the reason for the Establishment clause is so that no one religion can be established as the norm.
Even having ANY prayer means that non-religious people are being treated unconstitutionally.

If you want religion in your school...attend a religious school. It's that easy.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Exactly. They insist on the right to teach our children how and when to have sex, to prime them for early sex, to encourage them to pursue sex, and abortions, and homosexuality...

But by golly let one of those little bastards read the bible out loud in the lunchroom...KAPOW! Straight in the kisser!

So......you want prayer in schools. Okay. Now, question is, in places where there is a high percentage of Muslims, are you going to designate a prayer room for their 5 daily prayers as well?

 

[Contumacious]

State persecution of religion IS religious persecution. *sigh*

And the reason for the Establishment clause is so that no one religion can be established as the norm.
Even having ANY prayer means that non-religious people are being treated unconstitutionally.

If you want religion in your school...attend a religious school. It's that easy.

Actually, the answer is to ABOLISH government schools.

Prior to 1914, parents understood that it was THEIR responsibility to educate their progeny.

.

 

[Vanquish]

Let's just abolish government altogether! It can't ever do anything right...EVER...so what's the point. It only takes us backward.

Anarchy is the way. Survival of the fittest. Then those dirty libs would have to work or die.

 

[Jack Fate]

The founding fathers are rolling over in their graves.
Texas valedictorian vows to pray in her graduation speech, despite judge's order | khou.com Houston

 

[geauxtohell]

The founding fathers are rolling over in their graves.
Texas valedictorian vows to pray in her graduation speech, despite judge's order | khou.com Houston

I thought you respected the laws?

If this young woman chooses to thumb her nose at a Federal Judge's ruling that was specifically against her, I have no sympathy for the consequences she faces.

If this were any other issue, no one would support a person intentionally ignoring a legal ruling that was not in her favor.

Somehow, it's supposed to all be different because religion is involved?

Biery’s order, released Tuesday, was in response to a lawsuit filed by Christa and Danny Schultz on behalf of their son, Corwin, to block use of prayer. The judge says speakers cannot call on audience members to bow their heads, join in prayer or say "amen."

Texas judge: No prayer at high school graduation | khou.com Houston

Once again, the issue isn't that this student wants to exercise her religion privately, but rather she wants to lead the whole assembly in prayer.

 

[Jack Fate]

The founding fathers are rolling over in their graves.
Texas valedictorian vows to pray in her graduation speech, despite judge's order | khou.com Houston

I thought you respected the laws?

If this young woman chooses to thumb her nose at a Federal Judge's ruling that was specifically against her, I have no sympathy for the consequences she faces.

If this were any other issue, no one would support a person intentionally ignoring a legal ruling that was not in her favor.

Somehow, it's supposed to all be different because religion is involved?

Biery’s order, released Tuesday, was in response to a lawsuit filed by Christa and Danny Schultz on behalf of their son, Corwin, to block use of prayer. The judge says speakers cannot call on audience members to bow their heads, join in prayer or say "amen."

Texas judge: No prayer at high school graduation | khou.com Houston

Once again, the issue isn't that this student wants to exercise her religion privately, but rather she wants to lead the whole assembly in prayer.

The judge is wrong.

No one is being forced to pray along.

 

[Vanquish]

This child doesnt and should get the ability to coerce others into listening to her prayer.