The Dangers of the 'Collective'

[PoliticalChic]

1. Conservatism, known earlier as classical liberalism, in simplest terms, recognizes the supremacy of the individual. The perspective acknowledges the need to protect individual liberties and freedoms from the threat of an excessively powerful government of an oppressive collective.

a. The impetus for this philosophy was based on the tyranny of absolute monarchy. In the same way, a tyranny of the majority could threaten the natural and God given rights of the individual.

2. The Founders saw that federal separation of powers was the best way to limit the coercive powers of government. Taxation can be such a coercive power, and can be used in opposition to the concept of economic reward being directly related to the economic output at the individual level, e.g., 'you didn't build that!'






3. Taxation represents an essential difference between Liberals and conservatives, the former seeing coercive taxation as a method for equalizing material wealth, while conservatives see taxes as support for those enumerated powers granted the federal government in the Constitution...and any excess to be returned via tax cuts.

a. The use of tax revenues should be to fund those initiatives that contribute to the protection of Americans' rights, and that the free market cannot produce on its own.

b. The windbag...er, President, often attempted to instill class warfare through the use of the phrase "fair share," as in 'the rich must pay their fair share.' Well....we finally know what that fair share is! "(Reuters) - President Barack Obama paid an effective federal tax rate of 18.4 percent in 2012..." Obama's income fell in election year, paid 18.4 percent tax rate | Reuters

c. It is of more than passing interest that the same is consistent with the Biblical requirement, in difficult times:
Joseph gathered very much grain: It seems it was customary for Pharaoh to take 10% of the grain in Egypt as a tax. Essentially, Joseph doubled the taxes over the next seven years (Genesis 41:34 mentions one-fifth, that is, 20%).
Kudos to Obama!






4. Would you like to see an example of what Democrat leaders believe tax money should fund?
Money for a mob museum!

"LAS VEGAS — After taking a hail of bipartisan bullets in recent days over the suggestion that a federal stimulus package should help pay for a proposed $50 million museum here on the history of organized crime, the project’s godfathers are returning fire, complaining that Washington pols are scapegoating the museum and the city.... Senator Mitch McConnell, a Kentucky Republican and the minority leader, attacked the museum this week as a kind of localized earmark project that does not belong in legislationn..." http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/10/us/10mob.html






5. The very nature of the country explains why the collectivist approach is flawed. The nation has grown to such an extent that Congress is unable to respond to individual preferences of the electorate. And, the knowledge and ability of the Congress has been far outstripped by technology. Without the experience and knowledge that are found in niche areas of the various industries, politicians determine expenditures in both inefficient, and corrupt matter. Imagine the result if decisions about science and technology were made by one versed in community organizing?

a. " But…government in education? Healthcare? Automobile production? And dubious and absurd programs designed to bring about “equality”? Shouldn’t these decisions be left to the individual, or to the free market, in which forces compete to serve the individual, who will be the arbiter of their success?

But what about the abuses of the free market? It is not perfect; it is simply better than state control. It is the one that has to respond quickly and effectively to dissatisfaction and to demand. In the free market, if a product or service does not please, it is discontinued. Compare that to government persistence and expansion of programs that proven to have failed decades ago: farm subsidies, aid to Africa, busing, etc.

b. In the free market, every man, woman and child is scheming to find a better way to make a product or service that will make a fortune!"
David Mamet, "The Secret Knowledge," chapter ten.





6. One more example of the effect of leaving market decisions to government?
Railroad transportation: as demand for railroads stagnated over the 20th century, and aviation and trucking took over, Congress responded to special interests and sought to 'save' railroads; Amtrak was formed to subsidize railroads. Railroads are now the most subsidized form of transportation, even though it costs taxpayers over $100 per 1000 miles traveled by train compared to $10 for the same distance per airplane, and $4 for buses. Federal Subsidies to Passenger Transportation | Bureau of Transportation Statistics


Keeping the electorate ignorant is the explanation for the elections such as the recent one. Imagine if the 'low information voter' was aware of the costs to the economy of of boondoggles such as Amtrak, or ObamaCare....or subsidizing 'green energy'....

"President Obama's reelection is likely to ensure efforts to privatize Amtrak service and cut transportation funding will be unsuccessful."
Obama victory likely to preserve highway, Amtrak funding - The Hill's Transportation Report
Above based on Patrick Wetherille, "Reinventing the Right."

 

[there4eyeM]

"Conservatism....recognizes the supremacy of the individual."

Is that 'conservatism' as in 'the collected group of humans calling themselves conservatives'?

 

[Capstone]

"Conservatism....recognizes the supremacy of the individual."

Is that 'conservatism' as in 'the collected group of humans calling themselves conservatives'?

Collective Individualism.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The modern mainstream conservative in America has for the last 30 years or more supported the most fiscally irresponsible of all economic policies - specifically in the realm of taxation and government spending -

that one could possibly pursue, i.e.,

the policy of cutting taxes without demanding proportionate spending cuts, thus without regard to the deficits and debt created.

That policy of creating the illusion that much of government is 'free' is the worst possible policy to choose in this area.

Even the infamous 'tax and spend' label that is so often attached to liberal policy is by FAR the lesser of the two evils;

at the very least, tax and spend demands that the people PAY for what they're getting from their government. Tax and spend forces the people to see and feel what the real cost of government is;

borrow and spend, the conservative policy, hides the cost of government from the people, by not making them pay for it. That's the illusion that is now represented by 16 trillion dollars of debt;

that's the illusion that's represented by the fact that simply paying interest on the debt, which doesn't build a single road or bridge, or educate a child, or pay a soldier's wages, or build a ship or plane,

is one of the biggest government spending programs we now have.

 

[WillowTree]

The modern mainstream conservative in America has for the last 30 years or more supported the most fiscally irresponsible of all economic policies - specifically in the realm of taxation and government spending -

that one could possibly pursue, i.e.,

the policy of cutting taxes without demanding proportionate spending cuts, thus without regard to the deficits and debt created.

That policy of creating the illusion that much of government is 'free' is the worst possible policy to choose in this area.

Even the infamous 'tax and spend' label that is so often attached to liberal policy is by FAR the lesser of the two evils;

at the very least, tax and spend demands that the people PAY for what they're getting from their government. Tax and spend forces the people to see and feel what the real cost of government is;

borrow and spend, the conservative policy, hides the cost of government from the people, by not making them pay for it. That's the illusion that is now represented by 16 trillion dollars of debt;

that's the illusion that's represented by the fact that simply paying interest on the debt, which doesn't build a single road or bridge, or educate a child, or pay a soldier's wages, or build a ship or plane,

is one of the biggest government spending programs we now have.

ALL people who use the services provided by government should pay FEDERAL INCOME TAX, it's All or NONE. no class warfare allowed.

 

[Derideo_Te]

A government of the people, by the people and for the people is a de facto "collective".

The Constitution specifically grants the government the power to "promote the general welfare" of the people.

 

[Mad Scientist]

A government of the people, by the people and for the people is a de facto "collective".

The Constitution specifically grants the government the power to "promote the general welfare" of the people.

Promote equals Provide?

 

[there4eyeM]

A government of the people, by the people and for the people is a de facto "collective".

The Constitution specifically grants the government the power to "promote the general welfare" of the people.

Promote equals Provide?

That doesn't seem to follow from the post. Do you have an agenda?

 

[Agit8r]

One more example of the effect of leaving market decisions to government?
Railroad transportation: as demand for railroads stagnated over the 20th century, and aviation and trucking took over, Congress responded to special interests and sought to 'save' railroads; Amtrak was formed to subsidize railroads. Railroads are now the most subsidized form of transportation, even though it costs taxpayers over $100 per 1000 miles traveled by train compared to $10 for the same distance per airplane, and $4 for buses. Federal Subsidies to Passenger Transportation | Bureau of Transportation Statistics

Only in the 20th century? How do you think the Transcontinental Railroad got built? Do you think that Dagny Taggart's grandfather "built that"?

And your knowledge of America's founders is nil. (See signature)

 

[Greenbeard]

A government of the people, by the people and for the people is a de facto "collective".

The Constitution specifically grants the government the power to "promote the general welfare" of the people.

Promote equals Provide?

It uses both verbs in reference to the general welfare.

 

[Derideo_Te]

A government of the people, by the people and for the people is a de facto "collective".

The Constitution specifically grants the government the power to "promote the general welfare" of the people.

Promote equals Provide?

The General Welfare Clause | from Reason to Freedom

The preamble to the Constitution states:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Article 1, Section 8 states:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."

 

[depotoo]

One more example of the effect of leaving market decisions to government?
Railroad transportation: as demand for railroads stagnated over the 20th century, and aviation and trucking took over, Congress responded to special interests and sought to 'save' railroads; Amtrak was formed to subsidize railroads. Railroads are now the most subsidized form of transportation, even though it costs taxpayers over $100 per 1000 miles traveled by train compared to $10 for the same distance per airplane, and $4 for buses. Federal Subsidies to Passenger Transportation | Bureau of Transportation Statistics

Only in the 20th century? How do you think the Transcontinental Railroad got built? Do you think that Dagny Taggart's grandfather "built that"?

And your knowledge of America's founders is nil. (See signature)

and so do you.
It was built by those that wished to support, through the purchase of bonds and the gift of the land.

 

[Pogo]

"Conservatism, known earlier as classical Liberalism"...

The sidekick of the whole "Hitler was a Liberal" revisionism song and dance as they try to turn political definitions inside out in some kind of Bizarrro World comic book. Denial is a deep river.
Interesting how they hate Liberalism so much they're now trying to claim "hey, we thought of it first".

Ignorance is Strength.

 

[Agit8r]

One more example of the effect of leaving market decisions to government?
Railroad transportation: as demand for railroads stagnated over the 20th century, and aviation and trucking took over, Congress responded to special interests and sought to 'save' railroads; Amtrak was formed to subsidize railroads. Railroads are now the most subsidized form of transportation, even though it costs taxpayers over $100 per 1000 miles traveled by train compared to $10 for the same distance per airplane, and $4 for buses. Federal Subsidies to Passenger Transportation | Bureau of Transportation Statistics

Only in the 20th century? How do you think the Transcontinental Railroad got built? Do you think that Dagny Taggart's grandfather "built that"?

And your knowledge of America's founders is nil. (See signature)

and so do you.

um... what?

It was built by those that wished to support, through the purchase of bonds and the gift of the land.

Congress granted the corporations vast tracks of land to serve as collateral for the capital they needed to borrow.

 

[PoliticalChic]

One more example of the effect of leaving market decisions to government?
Railroad transportation: as demand for railroads stagnated over the 20th century, and aviation and trucking took over, Congress responded to special interests and sought to 'save' railroads; Amtrak was formed to subsidize railroads. Railroads are now the most subsidized form of transportation, even though it costs taxpayers over $100 per 1000 miles traveled by train compared to $10 for the same distance per airplane, and $4 for buses. Federal Subsidies to Passenger Transportation | Bureau of Transportation Statistics

Only in the 20th century? How do you think the Transcontinental Railroad got built? Do you think that Dagny Taggart's grandfather "built that"?

And your knowledge of America's founders is nil. (See signature)

Thanks for asking....
....now let's see whose knowledge is nil:


1. "A basic tenet of American capitalism is that supply precedes demand, as can be see in the case of all airports being closed down: the long lines of people unable to get to their destinations is the demand that cannot be fulfilled. This is why entrepreneurs must be given a free hand to produce, to speculate, as the building of more and more airports will lower prices, increasing demand. This is especially true in the case of new technologies.
Both high taxation and over regulation place a damper on this freedom.

“The proceeds from these speculations? the capital paid for stocks and bonds ? may seem misspent. In the long run, the results are called infrastructure, and they are what economies are built on.”

“Many European postal systems, telegraph lines and railroads were built with government money, and sometimes with insufficient capacity. But in the United States, instead of burdening taxpayers, we sell investors the equivalent of high-priced lottery tickets each time one of these technologies arrives.”
In Technology, Supply Precedes Demand - NYTimes.com



2. Now...speaking of the Founders......here's a guy they had studied, Adam Smith.

a. "The Theory of Moral Sentiments,"is often referred to by its abridged title The Wealth of Nations. It was first published in 1776, the same year as the American Declaration of Independence, and is considered a foundational text in modern economic theory. It is noted for its influence on the American founding fathers James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and Thomas Jefferson, and upon the economic theories of Karl Marx, John Maynard Keynes, and Milton Friedman.
Adam Smith | Libertarianism.org


b. " The statesman who should attempt to direct private people in what manner they ought to employ their capitals would not only load himself with a most unnecessary attention, but assume an authority which could safely be trusted, not only to no single person, but to no council or senate whatever, and which nowhere would be so dangerous as in the hands of a man who had the folly and presumption enough to fancy himself fit to exercise it."
— Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations




Gee....you must love being made to look like a dope....you do it so very often.

 

[Agit8r]

"Conservatism, known earlier as classical Liberalism"...

The sidekick of the whole "Hitler was a Liberal" revisionism song and dance. Denial is a deep river.

I know, right. It would be more honest to say "Conservatism, known earlier as fascism" lol

“The State must have a police, a judiciary, an army, and a foreign policy. All other things, and I do not exclude secondary education, must go back to the private activity of individuals. If one wants to save the State, the Collectivist State must be abolished.”
-- Benito Mussolini, from 'Il Primo Discorso alla Camera' (June 21, 1921)

http://www.ub.edu/graap/bel_Italy_fascist.pdf

 

[Mad Scientist]

A government of the people, by the people and for the people is a de facto "collective".

The Constitution specifically grants the government the power to "promote the general welfare" of the people.

Promote equals Provide?

The General Welfare Clause | from Reason to Freedom

The preamble to the Constitution states:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Article 1, Section 8 states:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."

So how come they didn't write:

"Promote the Common Defense" and

"Provide the General Welfare"?

Why did they write it as they did?

 

[Crackerjaxon]

A government of the people, by the people and for the people is a de facto "collective".
[/B]

Utter nonsense. What mental convolutions must you put yourself through to come to such an inane conclusion?

 

[PoliticalChic]

"Conservatism, known earlier as classical Liberalism"...

The sidekick of the whole "Hitler was a Liberal" revisionism song and dance as they try to turn political definitions inside out in some kind of Bizarrro World comic book. Denial is a deep river.
Interesting how they hate Liberalism so much they're now trying to claim "hey, we thought of it first".

Ignorance is Strength.

Well, then, you must be a regular superman.

a. “The American intellectual class from the mid 19th century onward has disliked liberalism (which originally referred to individualism, private property, and limits on power) precisely because the liberal society has no overarching goal.” http://fff.org/freedom/fd0203c.asp

Sure sounds like conservatism.....



b. Classical liberalism, the optimistic doctrine that gave us liberty, democracy, progress, was a moral project. It held that human society could always better itself by encouraging the good and diminishing the bad. It rested, therefore, on a very clear understanding that there was a higher cause than self-realization: that there were such things as right and wrong and that the former should be preferred over the latter. But the belief that autonomous individuals had the right to make subjective judgment about what was right for them in pursuit of their unchallengeable entitlement to happiness destroyed that understanding. Progressives interpreted liberty as license, thus destroying the moral rules that make freedom a virtue.
From “The World Turned Upside Down,” by Melanie Phillips. p.284



But...some Liberals actually learn!

Walter Lippmann (1889-1974), the noted liberal journalist, was among the first moderate liberals to sign-up to President Wilson's policies. Lippmann supported Theodore Roosevelt's Progressive Party in the 1912 presidential election. Lippmann supported Wilson in WWI, and envisaged the war as a vehicle for liberal values, With the collapse of the so-called 'Progressive' policies most associated with Wilson (and the re-election of the Republicans first to control of the Senate and then to the presidency), Lippmann's influence declined in tandem, and over the next decades, he shifted his political stance.


He repented:

“Throughout the world, in the name of progress, men who call themselves communists, socialists, fascists, nationalists, progressives, and even liberals, are unanimous in holding that government with its instruments of coercion must by commanding the people how they shall live, direct the course of civilization and fix the shape of things to come. . . . [T]he premises of authoritarian collectivism have become the working beliefs, the self-evident assumptions, the unquestioned axioms, not only of all the revolutionary regimes, but of nearly every effort which lays claim to being enlightened, humane, and progressive.

What worried Lippmann the most—and what should worry us still—was the failure of those who considered themselves progressives to “remember how much of what they cherish as progressive has come by emancipation from political dominion, by the limitation of power, by the release of personal energy from authority and collective coercion.”
https://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/digital/rahe/default.asp



Looks like Lippmann could have written the OP, huh?

 

[Dugdale_Jukes]

"Conservatism....recognizes the supremacy of the individual."

Is that 'conservatism' as in 'the collected group of humans calling themselves conservatives'?

Actually TODAY's US liberal vs conservative situation is a sort of Queen of Hearts by way of BizarroWorld grade of abuse of both reason and the language.

Liberalism is the philosophy that celebrates the individual and celebrates individual rights within reasonable frameworks of law and custom.

Conservatism is the philosophy that celebrates the establishment and expects that individuals will conform to establishment needs.

That changed in the 1980s when Democrats appropriated the word "liberal" for usage advocating group rights at the expense of individual rights and put government in the position of enforcer.

Conservatives then became reactionaries, moving into a defensive crouch creating a cafeteria conservatism that embraced individual right with their mouths but still moved toward subjugating individuals to the will of the establishment by inducement, mostly religion and war mongering.

So political terms we see today don't always represent the definitions well educated people over about fifty think of at first hearing of the traditional political descriptions.

The biggest change is the rightward march of fake liberals. Both parties are now firmly in favor of government controlling individuals and both parties firmly deny that in styles that would turn the Queen of Hearts green with envy.