The Lazy Poor

[Claudette]

Ever notice that PC complains incessantly about the poor and the welfare state that assists them,

but NEVER offers a better way to do things?

They are already offered the same free "choice" as everyone else: a free public education that equips them with all the necessary tools to get a job (math, reading, writing). From there they can EARN their way towards college, apply for a few scholarships, or choose the military for the means to afford a more skilled education. The catch? They have to work hard and apply themselves. Do you honestly expect the more responsible people to pick up the tab for those with no initiative of their own to LEARN how to succeed in life? We each "choose" how successful we want to be, based on our willingness to educate and apply ourselves. You also begin to learn, when life's own experiences teaches you what opportunities are left for those who happen to turn away from that pursuit of an education.

Government in no way helps the poor by cradling and nurturing them whenever someone fails to take an active, accountable and a responsible role for their OWN life. Government is the enabler to poverty, with all their free government programs and offers (like cell phones). It's a form of entitlement reward that takes away the need to really have any personal initiative - creating a "government will simply do it" mentality.



One of our Founders sums it up best:

I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”
- Ben Franklin

Bingo.

A super post and spot on.

 

[NYcarbineer]

When time came for a vote, I would decide, and abide by the decision of the voters.


The real question is why folks like you are willing to allow judges to alter the Constitution.

Well, that’s an unsurprisingly ignorant statement.

Judges do not ‘alter’ the Constitution. They review laws to determine their constitutionality predicated on facts, evidence, and case law. When voters, either through referendum or their elected representatives, enact legislation offensive to the Constitution, such as Proposition 8, the courts have no other choice than to invalidate such laws.

Indeed, judges protect and defend the Constitution by following its case law.

What better proof could there be that you slept too close to your radium-dial watch?

"Judges do not ‘alter’ the Constitution."

Of course they do.

Everytime they find a 'penumbra' unrelated to the language of the Constitution.

It is the very definition of corruption.

The Constitution cannot function unless it is interpreted; it cannot be interpreted unless there is a body with the authority to interpret it.

Tossing around terms like 'corruption' are only manifestations of the tantrums that partisans throw when their agenda isn't fulfilled by an interpretation of the Constitution by the Court.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Since you never lie, I can trust you to give an honest answer...

...name the Democrats you've voted for.

Well, it's fair to take that grim silence from you as being 'None'.

That makes you a 'reliable Republican voter', correct? and thus by your own measure,

not 'thoughtful'.

"silence from you as being 'None'."

As in the case of your wit, it is only half-so.

The correct phrase is 'None...of your business.'

You were the one who brought my supposed voting record into the conversation,

and you lied about it,

so much for your claim to never lie.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Ever notice that PC complains incessantly about the poor and the welfare state that assists them,

but NEVER offers a better way to do things?

They are already offered the same free "choice" as everyone else: a free public education that equips them with all the necessary tools to get a job (math, reading, writing). From there they can EARN their way towards college, apply for a few scholarships, or choose the military for the means to afford a more skilled education. The catch? They have to work hard and apply themselves. Do you honestly expect the more responsible people to pick up the tab for those with no initiative of their own to LEARN how to succeed in life? We each "choose" how successful we want to be, based on our willingness to educate and apply ourselves. You also begin to learn, when life's own experiences teaches you what opportunities are left for those who happen to turn away from that pursuit of an education.

Government in no way helps the poor by cradling and nurturing them whenever someone fails to take an active, accountable and a responsible role for their OWN life. Government is the enabler to poverty, with all their free government programs and offers (like cell phones). It's a form of entitlement reward that takes away the need to really have any personal initiative - creating a "government will simply do it" mentality.



One of our Founders sums it up best:

I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”
- Ben Franklin

After all that it shouldn't be hard for you to name the societies that have solved their poverty problems by keeping the government out of the business of helping the poor.

Give me that list.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Well, that’s an unsurprisingly ignorant statement.

Judges do not ‘alter’ the Constitution. They review laws to determine their constitutionality predicated on facts, evidence, and case law. When voters, either through referendum or their elected representatives, enact legislation offensive to the Constitution, such as Proposition 8, the courts have no other choice than to invalidate such laws.

Indeed, judges protect and defend the Constitution by following its case law.

What better proof could there be that you slept too close to your radium-dial watch?

"Judges do not ‘alter’ the Constitution."

Of course they do.

Everytime they find a 'penumbra' unrelated to the language of the Constitution.

It is the very definition of corruption.

The Constitution cannot function unless it is interpreted; it cannot be interpreted unless there is a body with the authority to interpret it.

Tossing around terms like 'corruption' are only manifestations of the tantrums that partisans throw when their agenda isn't fulfilled by an interpretation of the Constitution by the Court.

"The Constitution cannot function unless it is interpreted; ..."



You didn't get a copy in English???

That explains a lot....

 

[Freemason9]

What's the point of this; what solutions do you suggest, P.C.? Hell, most of us are disgusted with this country's welfare system, but this is a wage slave economy. Jobs pay shit, and they are rare; health care is nearly inaccessible for a large percentage; income discrimination is rampant, and employees don't have much in terms of benefits or labor protection anymore. So, YEAH, work in America is largely shit these days. If I could avoid that BS, I would, too. It really doesn't pay that well.

 

[Foxfyre]

What's the point of this; what solutions do you suggest, P.C.? Hell, most of us are disgusted with this country's welfare system, but this is a wage slave economy. Jobs pay shit, and they are rare; health care is nearly inaccessible for a large percentage; income discrimination is rampant, and employees don't have much in terms of benefits or labor protection anymore. So, YEAH, work in America is largely shit these days. If I could avoid that BS, I would, too. It really doesn't pay that well.

So maybe it is time to think that almost all of the problems you see were created or exacerbated by big government programs and meddling? And that maybe, just maybe, it is time to demand that big government get out of the micromanagement and meddling business and allow the country to function as the Founders envisioned?

I honestly do believe this is the last generation that will have any chance to do that if it is not already too late. And if we do not, we will have lost the USA to the very concepts and dynamics that the Founders intended to free us from. We will have given up freedom in favor of the bondage and dictates of government once again.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The only possibility you see is clutching at the straw of pretending to misunderstand.
Try to be honest.

Many Supreme Court decisions have been in error.

The voice of the people is the source of all power.

You need to keep track of what you say one minute to the next.

Supreme Court decisions are only 'in error' in the opinion of those who disagree with them.

Do you wish to end the Supreme Court's authority to rule on the constitutionality of the law?

Dred Scott, dim-wit.

And don’t forget Plessy vs. Ferguson.

The Dred Scott fallacy is a typical mistake made by those ignorant of the law, the Constitution, and the judicial process, such as the OP.

As Justice Kennedy noted in Lawrence, overturning Bowers:

The doctrine of stare decisis is essential to the respect accorded to the judgments of the Court and to the stability of the law. It is not, however, an inexorable command. Payne v. Tennessee, 501 U.S. 808, 828 (1991) (“Stare decisis is not an inexorable command; rather, it ‘is a principle of policy and not a mechanical formula of adherence to the latest decision’ ”) (quoting Helvering v. Hallock, 309 U.S. 106, 119 (1940))). In Casey we noted that when a Court is asked to overrule a precedent recognizing a constitutional liberty interest, individual or societal reliance on the existence of that liberty cautions with particular strength against reversing course. 505 U.S., at 855—856; see also id., at 844 (“Liberty finds no refuge in a jurisprudence of doubt”). The holding in Bowers, however, has not induced detrimental reliance comparable to some instances where recognized individual rights are involved. Indeed, there has been no individual or societal reliance on Bowers of the sort that could counsel against overturning its holding once there are compelling reasons to do so. Bowers itself causes uncertainty, for the precedents before and after its issuance contradict its central holding.

Clearly it is not a simple matter of a ruling being ‘right’ or ‘wrong,’ but how that ruling functions in the comprehensive context of Constitutional case law. Plessey, for example, as with Bowers, was overturned by Brown because it lacked the judicial reinforcement subsequent to the decision; absent any progeny of significance it was removed from codified precedent. Brown, on the other hand, has manifested significant progeny since being handed down, and is considered valid case law accordingly.

 

[jasonnfree]

Then she pretends she is all Jesusy

Yes, because there is no better way to walk the path of Jesus than to do so while complaining about the poor.

Jesus said to give to those who don't feel like working?

I must have missed that memo.


Or are you just too dumb to understand the OP?

There you go again quoting Jesus. He also said "Judge not... and this is what every one of your posts do. I judge also but I'm a non believer and I don't quote Jesus either.

 

[paulitician]

Have to respect her honesty. We are an Entitlement Nation now. Too many Americans assuming they deserve something. Their Entitlement attitude has led them to believe it's ok to steal from fellow Citizens. And unfortunately, many Politicians have encouraged them to have that attitude. But a day of reckoning is coming. We're $17 Trillion in Debt. This cannot be sustained. And If Amnesty is granted, a modestly estimated 15 Million more will be requesting Government assistance. Where will we get the money? Much darker times are ahead for this nation. That's just the sad reality.

 

[NYcarbineer]

What better proof could there be that you slept too close to your radium-dial watch?

"Judges do not ‘alter’ the Constitution."

Of course they do.

Everytime they find a 'penumbra' unrelated to the language of the Constitution.

It is the very definition of corruption.

The Constitution cannot function unless it is interpreted; it cannot be interpreted unless there is a body with the authority to interpret it.

Tossing around terms like 'corruption' are only manifestations of the tantrums that partisans throw when their agenda isn't fulfilled by an interpretation of the Constitution by the Court.

"The Constitution cannot function unless it is interpreted; ..."



You didn't get a copy in English???

That explains a lot....

That's funny coming from someone who once claimed that the Constitution should be interpreted as protecting the personhood of the fetus based on something said in the Declaration of Indpendence.

 

[Foxfyre]

Ever notice that PC complains incessantly about the poor and the welfare state that assists them,

but NEVER offers a better way to do things?

They are already offered the same free "choice" as everyone else: a free public education that equips them with all the necessary tools to get a job (math, reading, writing). From there they can EARN their way towards college, apply for a few scholarships, or choose the military for the means to afford a more skilled education. The catch? They have to work hard and apply themselves. Do you honestly expect the more responsible people to pick up the tab for those with no initiative of their own to LEARN how to succeed in life? We each "choose" how successful we want to be, based on our willingness to educate and apply ourselves. You also begin to learn, when life's own experiences teaches you what opportunities are left for those who happen to turn away from that pursuit of an education.

Government in no way helps the poor by cradling and nurturing them whenever someone fails to take an active, accountable and a responsible role for their OWN life. Government is the enabler to poverty, with all their free government programs and offers (like cell phones). It's a form of entitlement reward that takes away the need to really have any personal initiative - creating a "government will simply do it" mentality.



One of our Founders sums it up best:

I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”
- Ben Franklin

Bingo.

A super post and spot on.

Yep. I have posted that Ben Franklin quote several times in this thread. It is as true to day as it was in his time.

If taxes are to be based on property (wealth) owned, then all who own property should pay taxes proportionately.

If taxes are to be based on fees or value added collected, then all who avail themselves of government services should pay those fees, etc.

If taxes are to be based on income, then all who earn income should pay the same proportionate percentage of whatever income they earn.

Every citizen should have some skin in the game, share proportionately in the costs, and be subject to the consequences of whatever government does. When the laws and tax policy affect everybody, then everybody has a vested interest in what those laws and that policy will be. Only the truly helpless should ever be exempt. Those not subject to taxes should not have ability to vote/dictate what those who do pay taxes will pay. And Congress should be allowed to pass no law that benefits any individual, group, entity, or demographic that does not benefit all others equally. We should get the federal government out of the charity business altogether.

Do that and you will see poverty much reduced in this country, and what poverty exists will be mostly transitional because people who don't want to be poor won't be stuck in poverty. As previously posted, my husband and I started out with essentially nothing. Most of our friends were in the same boat. But within a fairly short time, we had all--every single one of us--had worked our way out of poverty and into the middle class experience. We were blessed with a society and economy that was yet uninfected with government meddling and interference.

 

[jasonnfree]

What's the point of this; what solutions do you suggest, P.C.? Hell, most of us are disgusted with this country's welfare system, but this is a wage slave economy. Jobs pay shit, and they are rare; health care is nearly inaccessible for a large percentage; income discrimination is rampant, and employees don't have much in terms of benefits or labor protection anymore. So, YEAH, work in America is largely shit these days. If I could avoid that BS, I would, too. It really doesn't pay that well.

This is why Tom Paine called for a guaranteed income. Opportunities are drying up since the corporations (through obama and his republican buddies) are now pushing for millions more immigrants to come here to provide more job competition in an economy that doesn't have enough jobs for it's own citizens, and more immigrants to look to get on the already overburdened welfare, ssi, food stamps rolls.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Have to respect her honesty. We are an Entitlement Nation now. Too many Americans assuming they deserve something. Their Entitlement attitude has led them to believe it's ok to steal from fellow Citizens. And unfortunately, many Politicians have encouraged them to have that attitude. But a day of reckoning is coming. We're $17 Trillion in Debt. This cannot be sustained. And If Amnesty is granted, a modestly estimated 15 Million more will be requesting Government assistance. Where will we get the money? Much darker times are ahead for this nation. That's just the sad reality.

Nonsense.

There is no ‘entitlement attitude,’ that’s nothing more than a partisan contrivance by the right.

Indeed, conservatives for the most part are incapacitated by their blind adherence to rightist dogma. ‘Entitlement attitude,’ ‘entitlement nation,’ and ‘big government programs and meddling’ are all examples of the intellectual laziness exhibited by many on the right, glomming onto simple, inaccurate ‘answers’ to complex and difficult issues.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Yes, because there is no better way to walk the path of Jesus than to do so while complaining about the poor.

Jesus said to give to those who don't feel like working?

I must have missed that memo.


Or are you just too dumb to understand the OP?

There you go again quoting Jesus. He also said "Judge not... and this is what every one of your posts do. I judge also but I'm a non believer and I don't quote Jesus either.

PC should be reminded that Christian charity as it occurs in the modern Christian church does not as far as I know engage in stern scrutiny of the needy to determine whether or not they might have hidden resources, or ought to be working for a living, or are 'lazy' or any such screening.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Ever notice that PC complains incessantly about the poor and the welfare state that assists them,

but NEVER offers a better way to do things?

They are already offered the same free "choice" as everyone else: a free public education that equips them with all the necessary tools to get a job (math, reading, writing). From there they can EARN their way towards college, apply for a few scholarships, or choose the military for the means to afford a more skilled education. The catch? They have to work hard and apply themselves. Do you honestly expect the more responsible people to pick up the tab for those with no initiative of their own to LEARN how to succeed in life? We each "choose" how successful we want to be, based on our willingness to educate and apply ourselves. You also begin to learn, when life's own experiences teaches you what opportunities are left for those who happen to turn away from that pursuit of an education.

Government in no way helps the poor by cradling and nurturing them whenever someone fails to take an active, accountable and a responsible role for their OWN life. Government is the enabler to poverty, with all their free government programs and offers (like cell phones). It's a form of entitlement reward that takes away the need to really have any personal initiative - creating a "government will simply do it" mentality.



One of our Founders sums it up best:

I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”
- Ben Franklin

After all that it shouldn't be hard for you to name the societies that have solved their poverty problems by keeping the government out of the business of helping the poor.

Give me that list.

And as is always the case, no list will be forthcoming.

The conclusion is simple, to paraphrase what someone else once said,

The welfare state is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

 

[Freemason9]

What's the point of this; what solutions do you suggest, P.C.? Hell, most of us are disgusted with this country's welfare system, but this is a wage slave economy. Jobs pay shit, and they are rare; health care is nearly inaccessible for a large percentage; income discrimination is rampant, and employees don't have much in terms of benefits or labor protection anymore. So, YEAH, work in America is largely shit these days. If I could avoid that BS, I would, too. It really doesn't pay that well.

So maybe it is time to think that almost all of the problems you see were created or exacerbated by big government programs and meddling? And that maybe, just maybe, it is time to demand that big government get out of the micromanagement and meddling business and allow the country to function as the Founders envisioned?

I honestly do believe this is the last generation that will have any chance to do that if it is not already too late. And if we do not, we will have lost the USA to the very concepts and dynamics that the Founders intended to free us from. We will have given up freedom in favor of the bondage and dictates of government once again.

And you believe, absent the government, that Big Business will restore wages, freedoms, and justice to the wage slaves.

Really?

 

[paulitician]

Have to respect her honesty. We are an Entitlement Nation now. Too many Americans assuming they deserve something. Their Entitlement attitude has led them to believe it's ok to steal from fellow Citizens. And unfortunately, many Politicians have encouraged them to have that attitude. But a day of reckoning is coming. We're $17 Trillion in Debt. This cannot be sustained. And If Amnesty is granted, a modestly estimated 15 Million more will be requesting Government assistance. Where will we get the money? Much darker times are ahead for this nation. That's just the sad reality.

Nonsense.

There is no ‘entitlement attitude,’ that’s nothing more than a partisan contrivance by the right.

Indeed, conservatives for the most part are incapacitated by their blind adherence to rightist dogma. ‘Entitlement attitude,’ ‘entitlement nation,’ and ‘big government programs and meddling’ are all examples of the intellectual laziness exhibited by many on the right, glomming onto simple, inaccurate ‘answers’ to complex and difficult issues.

We are an Entitlement Nation now. Just because you don't want to see it, doesn't mean it's not the reality. No one is entitled to someone else's income. But like i said, much darker times are ahead. If Amnesty is granted, there will be several Million more demanding Government assistance. Who's gonna pay for it? We are in serious trouble. But you can ignore it if you like. That's your call i guess.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Have to respect her honesty. We are an Entitlement Nation now. Too many Americans assuming they deserve something. Their Entitlement attitude has led them to believe it's ok to steal from fellow Citizens. And unfortunately, many Politicians have encouraged them to have that attitude. But a day of reckoning is coming. We're $17 Trillion in Debt. This cannot be sustained. And If Amnesty is granted, a modestly estimated 15 Million more will be requesting Government assistance. Where will we get the money? Much darker times are ahead for this nation. That's just the sad reality.

Nonsense.

There is no ‘entitlement attitude,’ that’s nothing more than a partisan contrivance by the right.

Indeed, conservatives for the most part are incapacitated by their blind adherence to rightist dogma. ‘Entitlement attitude,’ ‘entitlement nation,’ and ‘big government programs and meddling’ are all examples of the intellectual laziness exhibited by many on the right, glomming onto simple, inaccurate ‘answers’ to complex and difficult issues.

We are an Entitlement Nation now. Just because you don't want to see it, doesn't mean it's not the reality. No one is entitled to someone else's income..

If that were true and we lived strictly by that rule, even the flat tax would be forbidden, because it takes a percentage not a fixed amount.

 

[PoliticalChic]

What's the point of this; what solutions do you suggest, P.C.? Hell, most of us are disgusted with this country's welfare system, but this is a wage slave economy. Jobs pay shit, and they are rare; health care is nearly inaccessible for a large percentage; income discrimination is rampant, and employees don't have much in terms of benefits or labor protection anymore. So, YEAH, work in America is largely shit these days. If I could avoid that BS, I would, too. It really doesn't pay that well.

1. Step one:
Define "poor" accurately.

No home, no heat, no food.

2. " health care is nearly inaccessible for a large percentage"
Wrong. Every person in this nation...even illegal aliens....always had health care.

3. " income discrimination is rampant"
What is that....you don't get as much as the boss?
Simple....start your own company.

4. "employees don't have much in terms of benefits or labor protection anymore."
Geeezzz....you believe every bit of Leftist propaganda....

a. The statistics that claim the above fail to include the value of benefits such as health insurance and retirement benefits, etc., which have represented a growing share of compensation over the years.
Cox and Alm, “The Myths of Rich and Poor,” p.21

b. In actuality, the income of full time wage and salary workers increased between 1980 and 2004, and so did real income- either by 13% or 17%, depending on which price index is used in the calculation.
Reynolds, “Income and Wealth,” p. 63.

c. If health and retirement benefits are included, as they should be, worker compensation rose by almost a third. And, even this is illusory, as it doesn’t include the “statistically invisible (not on taxes) returns inside IRA and 401(k) plans.”
Reynolds, op. cit., p.64.