The N Word

[MizMolly]

White people calling black people horrible names and treating them like second class citizens is not acceptable, it is horrible. This does not give anyone the right to call whites names because they feel whites haven't had it as bad as they have. This is total bullshit. Nobody gets a pass just for past injustices.

Molly this is about more than past injustices and bad names. Your view on this is simplistic and you refuse to educate yourself about the completeness of what has been done and what continues to be done. Why not try doing that instead of arguing all day and night with people based upon an unlearned opinion and a feeling of white victimization?

I am not a victim. You seem to be. I just disagree with you that it is okay to call anyone names. Constant whining about how bad whites treat blacks. I have already said I disagree with racism. Equal treatment is what I agree on, but you don't. You want blacks to be able to do and say whatever they want, because they have been oppressed. Today there are still strides to be made, things are not equal or perfect. But, this does NOT give anyone the right to treat others badly, even blacks.

 

[MizMolly]

In light of the recent incident involving LeBron James, I would like to share some portions of Michael Eric Dyson’s book, “Tears We Cannot Stop,” and also add some words from my own book.

“N*****. Admit it, beloved, that word – that abomination – is still with us. Yes, it’s ugly. Yes, it’s full of hate. And yet, a lot of you, or at least a lot of the folk you know, still think of black folk as n******. I remember the first time I heard the white world call me “n*****.” I say white world because it was not an individual man saying that to me, mind you, even though the words came from his mouth. This man was simply repeating what he had been told about me. I was every black person he’d ever met. We were all the same. That’s what n***** meant. That’s what it still means.”

“And please don’t make a silly false equivalence between us. Some of you claim that black folk are racists too when they use epithets like honky, redneck, cracker, ofay, gray boy and the like. That you know that’s a lie. N***** has no rival. There is no rough or refined equivalence between the term and the many derisive references to white folks. Those terms don’t evoke singularly gruesome actions. N***** is unique because the menace implies is portable; it shows up wherever a white tongue is willing to suggest intimidation and destruction. There are no examples of black folk killing white folk en masse; terrorizing them with racial violence; shouting “cracker” as they lynch them from trees and then selling postcards to document their colossal crimes. Black folk have not enjoyed the protection of the state to carry out such misdeeds.”

“The state, in fact, rendered black folk even more vulnerable. White racism was the government’s science project; bigotry was its nightly homework. Evil flashed in a white face in a terrorizing crackerocracy, an exuberantly diabolic band of proud haters of black culture composed of the Klan, the White Citizens Council, neo-Confederate outfits, white nationalist groups, and the legions of unaffiliated fellow travelers. Their mottoes differed, but N***** is the rallying cry for all of them. We must effectively respond in our day to the ugly persistence of racism, even if its form has changed.”

The following words are from a letter I personally received from a young black girl named Jean. She really opened my eyes to how the use of the n***** word can have a devastating effect:

“Dee, the other day I was on a bus and a little white boy spat at me and called me a n*****. Tears came to my eyes. Why must I be called a n*****? I remember the day I Iooked up that word in the dictionary and it said it meant ignorant. I know I’m not ignorant. But if you look up that word in the revised edition it means, Black Americans, Negroes. Why? The walls of anger are getting stronger. I’m tired of trying to love those people. I’m tired of trying to get their education. Dee, as I write this letter I’m in tears. Because I’m writing to you knowing you don’t understand. Getting angry at myself. Hating myself because I’m turning away from God. It’s like I’m second best to him. Hey, wait a minute, those white people are first. Praying to him, wanting him to answer my prayers. Wondering does God love white people more than us. We been the white man’s slaves. Most of our women been their whores. Did God look down on us? Dee, the only desire I have is to die. You know, the first child I have I’m going to name him N***** so he won’t have to learn the hurt I have. He’ll think he’s famous The wall that I have is getting stronger. It’s going to take a miracle. But will your God even help? My mind I going through some changes it wouldn’t have to if white people would leave me alone. I need prayer. Pray for my attitude. The hatred, the pain, the discomfort, the unlovable soul that I have. Maybe God will help then. He’ll listen to you – you’re white!”

I grew up in Missouri and I can not, to this day, remember anything positive being said about black people. I was taught they were dirty, lazy, oversexed and violent. I was told to stay away from them, not to associate with them at all. I heard them called N***** all the time and heard my family say, "They want everything handed to them on a silver platter." This was what was put into my head. And it pretty much stayed there until I met a black man who contradicted every single one of those stereotypes. Thank God I met Henry and since then, the many, many positive black folks who opened my eyes and heart to the truth. I look at things this way. We either recognize racism and the use of the N word for what they are and try to combat them - or we don't. I choose to try.

There are a lot of great black people. I have black relatives. I love them dearly. The main thing on these forums that hit a nerve with me are the post defending someone when they are wrong and calling me racist when I differ with their opinions.

 

[IM2]

This author did not say that it was perfectly O.K. to call white people names. He was pointing out that there is a major and historical difference in the use of certain names that put them on different levels and evoke varying responses.

Wrong. There are no "levels" of insults. You either insult, or you don't. Quit making excuses.

I was telling you what Michael Eric Dyson said. I agree with him. Evidently you don't. That does not make you right and him wrong. I believe that when a black man writes about how he feels and what he has been through and tries to get other folks to understand, he should be believed. He has experienced things you and I have not and he makes the effort to help us understand how these experiences effected him.

I've seen you tell me to stop making excuses before. I do not believe that is what I do. There are reasons for things that often explain behaviors and differing opinions. I don't see them as excuses at all, rather explanations.

I agree that what he went through was wrong. By the same token, insulting a white person does not make it less offensive. You DO seem to side with the blacks, which is fine, as long as it is fair. You definitely are not fair in your opinions. You comment on the woes of blacks, thats fine too, but you never comment on anything negative toward whites by blacks.

Look Molly, you want always make everything exactly the same. . You keep talking about the negatives blacks have done to whites like the same history exists and it doesn't. You don't seem to get that and when it mentioned to you then you come forth with the classic defense mechanism of how that was in the past. Until you can cite examples where blacks made laws and policies that purposefully denied whites of opportunities you cannot really talk about how blacks do negative things to whites. A black person beating up a white person is bad, but it's not voter suppression Molly. Why can't you understand that? .

More of your nonsense. I do not make everything the same, but you seem to think blacks should get a pass, for the past. There are no laws implemented today that deny blacks anything. Move on, quit living in the past. No, things are not equal, they should be. Just because whites treated blacks bad in the past, and some still due, does NOT give blacks the right to treat whites badly today. WTF does voter suppression have to do with beating up white people? Beating up anyone is not right. Blacks have the right to vote, what is your damn point? Quit making excuses for anyone treating others bad. It is all wrong, regardless of race. But you think it is okay as long as the bad treatment is toward a white person.

Nonsense my ass. You right here crying about hw we do not talk about how blacks mistreat whites like its the exact same thing as what blacks keep getting. This is not about the past and if I call you stupid for your continued repetition of this silly line you want to get offended...The simple fact you don't know how modern voting suppression exists makes you unworthy to waste time debating. I have never said its right to treat anyone wrong. So when did racism end Molly? .You keep talking abut whites being treated badly for things in the past like it doesn't happen now. So when did racism end. Don't tell me you didn't say racism ended because you are saying that whites are getting treated bad for things in the past and not for what they do now. So when did racism nd Molly?

 

[MizMolly]

Wrong. There are no "levels" of insults. You either insult, or you don't. Quit making excuses.

I was telling you what Michael Eric Dyson said. I agree with him. Evidently you don't. That does not make you right and him wrong. I believe that when a black man writes about how he feels and what he has been through and tries to get other folks to understand, he should be believed. He has experienced things you and I have not and he makes the effort to help us understand how these experiences effected him.

I've seen you tell me to stop making excuses before. I do not believe that is what I do. There are reasons for things that often explain behaviors and differing opinions. I don't see them as excuses at all, rather explanations.

I agree that what he went through was wrong. By the same token, insulting a white person does not make it less offensive. You DO seem to side with the blacks, which is fine, as long as it is fair. You definitely are not fair in your opinions. You comment on the woes of blacks, thats fine too, but you never comment on anything negative toward whites by blacks.

Look Molly, you want always make everything exactly the same. . You keep talking about the negatives blacks have done to whites like the same history exists and it doesn't. You don't seem to get that and when it mentioned to you then you come forth with the classic defense mechanism of how that was in the past. Until you can cite examples where blacks made laws and policies that purposefully denied whites of opportunities you cannot really talk about how blacks do negative things to whites. A black person beating up a white person is bad, but it's not voter suppression Molly. Why can't you understand that? .

More of your nonsense. I do not make everything the same, but you seem to think blacks should get a pass, for the past. There are no laws implemented today that deny blacks anything. Move on, quit living in the past. No, things are not equal, they should be. Just because whites treated blacks bad in the past, and some still due, does NOT give blacks the right to treat whites badly today. WTF does voter suppression have to do with beating up white people? Beating up anyone is not right. Blacks have the right to vote, what is your damn point? Quit making excuses for anyone treating others bad. It is all wrong, regardless of race. But you think it is okay as long as the bad treatment is toward a white person.

Nonsense my ass. You right here crying about hw we do not talk about how blacks mistreat whites like its the exact same thing as what blacks keep getting. This is not about the past and if I call you stupid for your continued repetition of this silly line you want to get offended...The simple fact you don't know how modern voting suppression exists makes you unworthy to waste time debating. I have never said its right to treat anyone wrong. So when did racism end Molly? .You keep talking abut whites being treated badly for things in the past like it doesn't happen now. So when did racism end. Don't tell me you didn't say racism ended because you are saying that whites are getting treated bad for things in the past and not for what they do now. So when did racism nd Molly?

Another idiotic response. I NEVER said racism ended. I have said many times it still exist. My responses on this thread is that it does NOT give anyone the right to call whites names. I am not offended, you are the only one calling me names, you are nothing to me. Yes, some blacks blame whites today for the past, whether or not they had anything to do with it or not. I NEVER said bad things don't happen to blacks now. You seem to totally miss my point. Regardless of how blacks are treated, it does not give them the right to call whites names, if they haven't done anything to deserve it. WTF is it so hard to understand? I am not the one whining, you are. I made a comment about how it is not right for one person to do something but not another. YOU are the one who is not worth a debate with, you are so blinded by your own race, you refuse to see anyone else's viewpoint.

 

[MizMolly]

Wrong. There are no "levels" of insults. You either insult, or you don't. Quit making excuses.

I was telling you what Michael Eric Dyson said. I agree with him. Evidently you don't. That does not make you right and him wrong. I believe that when a black man writes about how he feels and what he has been through and tries to get other folks to understand, he should be believed. He has experienced things you and I have not and he makes the effort to help us understand how these experiences effected him.

I've seen you tell me to stop making excuses before. I do not believe that is what I do. There are reasons for things that often explain behaviors and differing opinions. I don't see them as excuses at all, rather explanations.

I agree that what he went through was wrong. By the same token, insulting a white person does not make it less offensive. You DO seem to side with the blacks, which is fine, as long as it is fair. You definitely are not fair in your opinions. You comment on the woes of blacks, thats fine too, but you never comment on anything negative toward whites by blacks.

Look Molly, you want always make everything exactly the same. . You keep talking about the negatives blacks have done to whites like the same history exists and it doesn't. You don't seem to get that and when it mentioned to you then you come forth with the classic defense mechanism of how that was in the past. Until you can cite examples where blacks made laws and policies that purposefully denied whites of opportunities you cannot really talk about how blacks do negative things to whites. A black person beating up a white person is bad, but it's not voter suppression Molly. Why can't you understand that? .

More of your nonsense. I do not make everything the same, but you seem to think blacks should get a pass, for the past. There are no laws implemented today that deny blacks anything. Move on, quit living in the past. No, things are not equal, they should be. Just because whites treated blacks bad in the past, and some still due, does NOT give blacks the right to treat whites badly today. WTF does voter suppression have to do with beating up white people? Beating up anyone is not right. Blacks have the right to vote, what is your damn point? Quit making excuses for anyone treating others bad. It is all wrong, regardless of race. But you think it is okay as long as the bad treatment is toward a white person.

Nonsense my ass. You right here crying about hw we do not talk about how blacks mistreat whites like its the exact same thing as what blacks keep getting. This is not about the past and if I call you stupid for your continued repetition of this silly line you want to get offended...The simple fact you don't know how modern voting suppression exists makes you unworthy to waste time debating. I have never said its right to treat anyone wrong. So when did racism end Molly? .You keep talking abut whites being treated badly for things in the past like it doesn't happen now. So when did racism end. Don't tell me you didn't say racism ended because you are saying that whites are getting treated bad for things in the past and not for what they do now. So when did racism nd Molly?

If it isn't about the past, you do a damn good job of bringing it up in virtually all of your posts.

 

[MizMolly]

And just because it is not the same, how blacks are not treated equally, this does not mean that blacks should get a free pass to say and do what they want toward white people. You just don't get it, IM2, you are so narrow minded.

 

[MizMolly]

And by the way IM2, if I am not worthy of debating, how bout you STFU? You don't have to respond to my posts to other people, or to you either.

 

[IM2]

White people calling black people horrible names and treating them like second class citizens is not acceptable, it is horrible. This does not give anyone the right to call whites names because they feel whites haven't had it as bad as they have. This is total bullshit. Nobody gets a pass just for past injustices.

Molly this is about more than past injustices and bad names. Your view on this is simplistic and you refuse to educate yourself about the completeness of what has been done and what continues to be done. Why not try doing that instead of arguing all day and night with people based upon an unlearned opinion and a feeling of white victimization?

I am not a victim. You seem to be. I just disagree with you that it is okay to call anyone names. Constant whining about how bad whites treat blacks. I have already said I disagree with racism. Equal treatment is what I agree on, but you don't. You want blacks to be able to do and say whatever they want, because they have been oppressed. Today there are still strides to be made, things are not equal or perfect. But, this does NOT give anyone the right to treat others badly, even blacks.

I've never said it was OK to call anyone names. You are here arguing from a position of victimhood. I know you can't understand that because you just don't have the knowledge and you think a victim can only be a black person standing up against racism, but that's not victimhood, what you are doing is. You are the one not for equal treatment. Because if there are strides still to be made it means that equal treatment does not exist. Molly yo think what you ae saying makes sense, but it doesn't. It's stupid. You assume I want blacks to be able to do and say anything because we were oppressed, Do you not understand how stupid that sounds? You say I don't want equal treatment. Based on what can you make that comment? You make no sense but you run your mouth day in and day out because others just as dumb will jump on anyone who doesn't go along with the racism. Molly, if you had the ovarian fortitude, I could shows you how whites have got what they have beginning in 1618 that has allowed them to be were they are today. And if you think that 243 years of working for free has no impact on the black community today while sons and daughters of the revolution and other whites are now in the 15th or 16th generation of turning over old money. then you are crazy as hell.

This discussion is not just about you, and it's not just about me. It is about blacks and whites, two distinct groups in America with histories and those histories are direct opposites of one another. So until whites like you understand that and keep trying to argue like we have had the same experience and you ignore the macro level of this argument to talk about what you haven't' done at the micro level, you are a waste of time.

 

[IM2]

And just because it is not the same, how blacks are not treated equally, this does not mean that blacks should get a free pass to say and do what they want toward white people. You just don't get it, IM2, you are so narrow minded.

Since I've never said that, I don't need to get it.

 

[MizMolly]

White people calling black people horrible names and treating them like second class citizens is not acceptable, it is horrible. This does not give anyone the right to call whites names because they feel whites haven't had it as bad as they have. This is total bullshit. Nobody gets a pass just for past injustices.

Molly this is about more than past injustices and bad names. Your view on this is simplistic and you refuse to educate yourself about the completeness of what has been done and what continues to be done. Why not try doing that instead of arguing all day and night with people based upon an unlearned opinion and a feeling of white victimization?

I am not a victim. You seem to be. I just disagree with you that it is okay to call anyone names. Constant whining about how bad whites treat blacks. I have already said I disagree with racism. Equal treatment is what I agree on, but you don't. You want blacks to be able to do and say whatever they want, because they have been oppressed. Today there are still strides to be made, things are not equal or perfect. But, this does NOT give anyone the right to treat others badly, even blacks.

I've never said it was OK to call anyone names. You are here arguing from a position of victimhood. I know you can't understand that because you just don't have the knowledge and you think a victim can only be a black person standing up against racism, but that's not victimhood, what you are doing is. You are the one not for equal treatment. Because if there are strides still to be made it means that equal treatment does not exist. Molly yo think what you ae saying makes sense, but it doesn't. It's stupid. You assume I want blacks to be able to do and say anything because we were oppressed, Do you not understand how stupid that sounds? You say I don't want equal treatment. Based on what can you make that comment? You make no sense but you run your mouth day in and day out because others just as dumb will jump on anyone who doesn't go along with the racism. Molly, if you had the ovarian fortitude, I could shows you how whites have got what they have beginning in 1618 that has allowed them to be were they are today. And if you think that 243 years of working for free has no impact on the black community today while sons and daughters of the revolution and other whites are now in the 15th or 16th generation of turning over old money. then you are crazy as hell.

This discussion is not just about you, and it's not just about me. It is about blacks and whites, two distinct groups in America with histories and those histories are direct opposites of one another. So until whites like you understand that and keep trying to argue like we have had the same experience and you ignore the macro level of this argument to talk about what you haven't' done at the micro level, you are a waste of time.

There ya go again, the past, 1618? Really? I don't have old money so I can't relate. I never said we have the same experiences, NEVER ONCE compared them.I am not playing the victim. I have not been victimized. You are crying on here all the time. You think I don't deserve to comment. Just what are you doing on here, other than arguing about anything I post? If I am a waste of time, go away and shut the fuck up. Just because I don't think you should call whites names you get butt hurt and blabber about other shit that is irrelevant. The past is irrelevant when it comes to treating people right, when they don't deserve mistreatment. You can't understand that. I do make sense, you just don't have the sense to understand anything other than your one-sided views.

 

[MizMolly]

And just because it is not the same, how blacks are not treated equally, this does not mean that blacks should get a free pass to say and do what they want toward white people. You just don't get it, IM2, you are so narrow minded.

Since I've never said that, I don't need to get it.

Yes, you make excuses of how it isn't the same. All I said was nobody should be calling names and you go on a long tirade about how blacks have been oppressed, etc etc etc....no excuse.

 

[LOIE]

You truly are the poste child for white fragility. Racism exists today, and racist polices of the past created damage that has yt to be fixed.

This is worthy of discussion. But more than a vague accusation is needed to adequately address the issue. So please be specific about the ". . . damage that has yet to be fixed." Specifically what damage are you referring to? And specifically how would you recommend it be fixed?

You seem to think that past racism just occurred and disappeared with no consequences created by those actions that took place.

Specifically what consequences would you consider adequate compensation for the past offenses ("damages") you are referencing?

You cannot go to court and say someone did something harmful to you and you demand compensation. That's not enough. You need to be specific about the alleged damages and specific about your compensation demand.

The problem you (and others) have in this forum is your complaints are limited to presumptive allegations.

Hope nobody minds me jumping in here. I would like to share a couple stories I heard last weekend. One older black lady told about when she was a child and her mother did domestic work for white people. Her mom always talked about how wonderful the family was to her and how much she appreciated that they let her work for them and treated her decently. Her mother did not know, however that when she went along to work with her and spent time with the white children, they teased her mercilessly and called her names. She put up with all most daily dehumanization, but never told her mother. Now she is a woman in her 80's and to this very day, cries over those painful memories.

Another older black lady cried as she told about a woman she considered her second mother. One day she wondered why this woman had no children of her own. When she asked, she was told that when she was young she had some female problems and went to the doctor. They did an operation and told her she would be fine. But for years after that she tried to conceive and never could. Finally, a doctor told her that the previous doctor had done a hysterectomy and never told her. He said that it was common practice back then in that state to control the black population. You could feel and see the pain this woman experienced to this very day.

Emotional trauma, I believe, can be passed from generation to generation just like inherited diseases. Painful memories and even pain from stories that happened generations ago, still linger. There can never be enough financial restitution to take away emotional pain. There can be at least partial healing when folks are given the opportunity to unburden themselves and are received with grace and understanding. There can be at least partial healing, like there was in the room where we gathered together, when folks hugged, cried together and offered apologies for the way these women had been mistreated.

There are countless similar stories whether or not you believe them and whether or not you think the pain is real. I do not think our nation has done nearly enough to right our wrongs.

Jump in any time delores.

Sorry, I had to go out for a while. Like I've often said, although laws may be currently on the books that make certain acts of discrimination illegal, the implementation of those laws are not always carried through and so many things that used to be done openly are now done quietly and are done in such a way to be nearly impossible to prove in a court of law.

 

[MizMolly]

You truly are the poste child for white fragility. Racism exists today, and racist polices of the past created damage that has yt to be fixed.

This is worthy of discussion. But more than a vague accusation is needed to adequately address the issue. So please be specific about the ". . . damage that has yet to be fixed." Specifically what damage are you referring to? And specifically how would you recommend it be fixed?

You seem to think that past racism just occurred and disappeared with no consequences created by those actions that took place.

Specifically what consequences would you consider adequate compensation for the past offenses ("damages") you are referencing?

You cannot go to court and say someone did something harmful to you and you demand compensation. That's not enough. You need to be specific about the alleged damages and specific about your compensation demand.

The problem you (and others) have in this forum is your complaints are limited to presumptive allegations.

Hope nobody minds me jumping in here. I would like to share a couple stories I heard last weekend. One older black lady told about when she was a child and her mother did domestic work for white people. Her mom always talked about how wonderful the family was to her and how much she appreciated that they let her work for them and treated her decently. Her mother did not know, however that when she went along to work with her and spent time with the white children, they teased her mercilessly and called her names. She put up with all most daily dehumanization, but never told her mother. Now she is a woman in her 80's and to this very day, cries over those painful memories.

Another older black lady cried as she told about a woman she considered her second mother. One day she wondered why this woman had no children of her own. When she asked, she was told that when she was young she had some female problems and went to the doctor. They did an operation and told her she would be fine. But for years after that she tried to conceive and never could. Finally, a doctor told her that the previous doctor had done a hysterectomy and never told her. He said that it was common practice back then in that state to control the black population. You could feel and see the pain this woman experienced to this very day.

Emotional trauma, I believe, can be passed from generation to generation just like inherited diseases. Painful memories and even pain from stories that happened generations ago, still linger. There can never be enough financial restitution to take away emotional pain. There can be at least partial healing when folks are given the opportunity to unburden themselves and are received with grace and understanding. There can be at least partial healing, like there was in the room where we gathered together, when folks hugged, cried together and offered apologies for the way these women had been mistreated.

There are countless similar stories whether or not you believe them and whether or not you think the pain is real. I do not think our nation has done nearly enough to right our wrongs.

Jump in any time delores.

Sorry, I had to go out for a while. Like I've often said, although laws may be currently on the books that make certain acts of discrimination illegal, the implementation of those laws are not always carried through and so many things that used to be done openly are now done quietly and are done in such a way to be nearly impossible to prove in a court of law.

I agree. It isn't always regarding race either. People will hire who they want, regardless of the laws. Some won't hire blacks, Mexican's, orientals, women, etc.

 

[LOIE]

White people calling black people horrible names and treating them like second class citizens is not acceptable, it is horrible. This does not give anyone the right to call whites names because they feel whites haven't had it as bad as they have. This is total bullshit. Nobody gets a pass just for past injustices.

Molly this is about more than past injustices and bad names. Your view on this is simplistic and you refuse to educate yourself about the completeness of what has been done and what continues to be done. Why not try doing that instead of arguing all day and night with people based upon an unlearned opinion and a feeling of white victimization?

I am not a victim. You seem to be. I just disagree with you that it is okay to call anyone names. Constant whining about how bad whites treat blacks. I have already said I disagree with racism. Equal treatment is what I agree on, but you don't. You want blacks to be able to do and say whatever they want, because they have been oppressed. Today there are still strides to be made, things are not equal or perfect. But, this does NOT give anyone the right to treat others badly, even blacks.

I've never said it was OK to call anyone names. You are here arguing from a position of victimhood. I know you can't understand that because you just don't have the knowledge and you think a victim can only be a black person standing up against racism, but that's not victimhood, what you are doing is. You are the one not for equal treatment. Because if there are strides still to be made it means that equal treatment does not exist. Molly yo think what you ae saying makes sense, but it doesn't. It's stupid. You assume I want blacks to be able to do and say anything because we were oppressed, Do you not understand how stupid that sounds? You say I don't want equal treatment. Based on what can you make that comment? You make no sense but you run your mouth day in and day out because others just as dumb will jump on anyone who doesn't go along with the racism. Molly, if you had the ovarian fortitude, I could shows you how whites have got what they have beginning in 1618 that has allowed them to be were they are today. And if you think that 243 years of working for free has no impact on the black community today while sons and daughters of the revolution and other whites are now in the 15th or 16th generation of turning over old money. then you are crazy as hell.

This discussion is not just about you, and it's not just about me. It is about blacks and whites, two distinct groups in America with histories and those histories are direct opposites of one another. So until whites like you understand that and keep trying to argue like we have had the same experience and you ignore the macro level of this argument to talk about what you haven't' done at the micro level, you are a waste of time.

There ya go again, the past, 1618? Really? I don't have old money so I can't relate. I never said we have the same experiences, NEVER ONCE compared them.I am not playing the victim. I have not been victimized. You are crying on here all the time. You think I don't deserve to comment. Just what are you doing on here, other than arguing about anything I post? If I am a waste of time, go away and shut the fuck up. Just because I don't think you should call whites names you get butt hurt and blabber about other shit that is irrelevant. The past is irrelevant when it comes to treating people right, when they don't deserve mistreatment. You can't understand that. I do make sense, you just don't have the sense to understand anything other than your one-sided views.

While I was running my errand a few incidents came to mind where I was called white ass, white bitch, etc. etc. by a black woman, who was my neighbor. I tried to reason with her from time to time, tried to get a mediator, but nothing worked. Tried ignoring her, but she persisted. Finally, she actually threatened to kill me so I took her to court and eventually got a restraining order. She eventually moved away.

The next time it was a teenage black girl who harassed me and called me white this, that and the other. She eventually threatened me also. I took her to court but because she had family members who worked at court, our case kept getting delayed. I finally wrote to the District Attorney and the next court date we were heard and got a restraining order. She eventually moved away also.

None of this was pleasant, but I treated each of these people as individuals with obvious problems. It did not make me dislike or blame all black people of racism or hating white people. I knew far too many good black people by then.

 

[MizMolly]

White people calling black people horrible names and treating them like second class citizens is not acceptable, it is horrible. This does not give anyone the right to call whites names because they feel whites haven't had it as bad as they have. This is total bullshit. Nobody gets a pass just for past injustices.

Molly this is about more than past injustices and bad names. Your view on this is simplistic and you refuse to educate yourself about the completeness of what has been done and what continues to be done. Why not try doing that instead of arguing all day and night with people based upon an unlearned opinion and a feeling of white victimization?

I am not a victim. You seem to be. I just disagree with you that it is okay to call anyone names. Constant whining about how bad whites treat blacks. I have already said I disagree with racism. Equal treatment is what I agree on, but you don't. You want blacks to be able to do and say whatever they want, because they have been oppressed. Today there are still strides to be made, things are not equal or perfect. But, this does NOT give anyone the right to treat others badly, even blacks.

I've never said it was OK to call anyone names. You are here arguing from a position of victimhood. I know you can't understand that because you just don't have the knowledge and you think a victim can only be a black person standing up against racism, but that's not victimhood, what you are doing is. You are the one not for equal treatment. Because if there are strides still to be made it means that equal treatment does not exist. Molly yo think what you ae saying makes sense, but it doesn't. It's stupid. You assume I want blacks to be able to do and say anything because we were oppressed, Do you not understand how stupid that sounds? You say I don't want equal treatment. Based on what can you make that comment? You make no sense but you run your mouth day in and day out because others just as dumb will jump on anyone who doesn't go along with the racism. Molly, if you had the ovarian fortitude, I could shows you how whites have got what they have beginning in 1618 that has allowed them to be were they are today. And if you think that 243 years of working for free has no impact on the black community today while sons and daughters of the revolution and other whites are now in the 15th or 16th generation of turning over old money. then you are crazy as hell.

This discussion is not just about you, and it's not just about me. It is about blacks and whites, two distinct groups in America with histories and those histories are direct opposites of one another. So until whites like you understand that and keep trying to argue like we have had the same experience and you ignore the macro level of this argument to talk about what you haven't' done at the micro level, you are a waste of time.

There ya go again, the past, 1618? Really? I don't have old money so I can't relate. I never said we have the same experiences, NEVER ONCE compared them.I am not playing the victim. I have not been victimized. You are crying on here all the time. You think I don't deserve to comment. Just what are you doing on here, other than arguing about anything I post? If I am a waste of time, go away and shut the fuck up. Just because I don't think you should call whites names you get butt hurt and blabber about other shit that is irrelevant. The past is irrelevant when it comes to treating people right, when they don't deserve mistreatment. You can't understand that. I do make sense, you just don't have the sense to understand anything other than your one-sided views.

While I was running my errand a few incidents came to mind where I was called white ass, white bitch, etc. etc. by a black woman, who was my neighbor. I tried to reason with her from time to time, tried to get a mediator, but nothing worked. Tried ignoring her, but she persisted. Finally, she actually threatened to kill me so I took her to court and eventually got a restraining order. She eventually moved away.

The next time it was a teenage black girl who harassed me and called me white this, that and the other. She eventually threatened me also. I took her to court but because she had family members who worked at court, our case kept getting delayed. I finally wrote to the District Attorney and the next court date we were heard and got a restraining order. She eventually moved away also.

None of this was pleasant, but I treated each of these people as individuals with obvious problems. It did not make me dislike or blame all black people of racism or hating white people. I knew far too many good black people by then.

I don't blame all black people for anything. I know and love many black people. I have many black relatives that I love tremendously. A lot of blacks say blacks can't be racist, what do you call the way you were treated, if not racism?

 

[LOIE]

This author did not say that it was perfectly O.K. to call white people names. He was pointing out that there is a major and historical difference in the use of certain names that put them on different levels and evoke varying responses.

Wrong. There are no "levels" of insults. You either insult, or you don't. Quit making excuses.

I was telling you what Michael Eric Dyson said. I agree with him. Evidently you don't. That does not make you right and him wrong. I believe that when a black man writes about how he feels and what he has been through and tries to get other folks to understand, he should be believed. He has experienced things you and I have not and he makes the effort to help us understand how these experiences effected him.

I've seen you tell me to stop making excuses before. I do not believe that is what I do. There are reasons for things that often explain behaviors and differing opinions. I don't see them as excuses at all, rather explanations.

I agree that what he went through was wrong. By the same token, insulting a white person does not make it less offensive. You DO seem to side with the blacks, which is fine, as long as it is fair. You definitely are not fair in your opinions. You comment on the woes of blacks, thats fine too, but you never comment on anything negative toward whites by blacks.

On balance, no amount of negativity towards whites by blacks could ever begin to compare with what has historically taken place in this country. Blacks do not go around lynching white people and I don't see them making life harder for whites by implementing laws that make it harder for them to be considered human and worthy of all the rights that blacks have had to literally fight and die for.

If any black person ever says anything negative directly towards me I intend to listen, contemplate what he says and look inwardly to see if what he says is true. If it is, I will apologize and ask his forgiveness. If it is not true of me, I will explain why and try to help him understand where I am coming from and why I may be different from other white folks he has met.

Just as a small example, some black children asked me for money one day and I said that I didn't have any on me at the time (which was true). When they walked away, one little girl said, "She just doesn't want to give us anything because we're black." I walked over to her and told her that she was making an assumption about me that was not true. I told her I often give money away to all different kinds of people regardless of their skin color, it was just that I honestly did not have any money at that time.

I am not talking about what blacks went through in the past, the lynchings, etc. That is the past, it was horrible, it can't be changed. There is no excuse for what occurs today. What laws today are implemented to make life harder on blacks? WTF is wrong with you? So, it is okay for blacks to call whites names because of the history of whites treatment of blacks? Whites today were not here then, they did not participate in the treatments of blacks. geez you are incredible

I don't believe anybody ever said it was O.K. - I just said that history explains why some of the name calling takes place. I do think that if things had been reversed and all of those horrible things has been done to whites by blacks, that it would never be forgotten.

 

[IM2]

You truly are the poste child for white fragility. Racism exists today, and racist polices of the past created damage that has yt to be fixed.

This is worthy of discussion. But more than a vague accusation is needed to adequately address the issue. So please be specific about the ". . . damage that has yet to be fixed." Specifically what damage are you referring to? And specifically how would you recommend it be fixed?

You seem to think that past racism just occurred and disappeared with no consequences created by those actions that took place.

Specifically what consequences would you consider adequate compensation for the past offenses ("damages") you are referencing?

You cannot go to court and say someone did something harmful to you and you demand compensation. That's not enough. You need to be specific about the alleged damages and specific about your compensation demand.

The problem you (and others) have in this forum is your complaints are limited to presumptive allegations.

Hope nobody minds me jumping in here. I would like to share a couple stories I heard last weekend. One older black lady told about when she was a child and her mother did domestic work for white people. Her mom always talked about how wonderful the family was to her and how much she appreciated that they let her work for them and treated her decently. Her mother did not know, however that when she went along to work with her and spent time with the white children, they teased her mercilessly and called her names. She put up with all most daily dehumanization, but never told her mother. Now she is a woman in her 80's and to this very day, cries over those painful memories.

Another older black lady cried as she told about a woman she considered her second mother. One day she wondered why this woman had no children of her own. When she asked, she was told that when she was young she had some female problems and went to the doctor. They did an operation and told her she would be fine. But for years after that she tried to conceive and never could. Finally, a doctor told her that the previous doctor had done a hysterectomy and never told her. He said that it was common practice back then in that state to control the black population. You could feel and see the pain this woman experienced to this very day.

Emotional trauma, I believe, can be passed from generation to generation just like inherited diseases. Painful memories and even pain from stories that happened generations ago, still linger. There can never be enough financial restitution to take away emotional pain. There can be at least partial healing when folks are given the opportunity to unburden themselves and are received with grace and understanding. There can be at least partial healing, like there was in the room where we gathered together, when folks hugged, cried together and offered apologies for the way these women had been mistreated.

There are countless similar stories whether or not you believe them and whether or not you think the pain is real. I do not think our nation has done nearly enough to right our wrongs.

Jump in any time delores.

Sorry, I had to go out for a while. Like I've often said, although laws may be currently on the books that make certain acts of discrimination illegal, the implementation of those laws are not always carried through and so many things that used to be done openly are now done quietly and are done in such a way to be nearly impossible to prove in a court of law.

I agree. It isn't always regarding race either. People will hire who they want, regardless of the laws. Some won't hire blacks, Mexican's, orientals, women, etc.

Of course there is no more racism Race is never considered even though blacks are unemployed at double the rate of whites, it just means that all the blacks who did not get hired were unqualified. It's not about it always being about anything it is that it happens at all.

Racism by whites is a major problem in this nation. Denying it allows it to continue.

 

[LOIE]

Molly this is about more than past injustices and bad names. Your view on this is simplistic and you refuse to educate yourself about the completeness of what has been done and what continues to be done. Why not try doing that instead of arguing all day and night with people based upon an unlearned opinion and a feeling of white victimization?

I am not a victim. You seem to be. I just disagree with you that it is okay to call anyone names. Constant whining about how bad whites treat blacks. I have already said I disagree with racism. Equal treatment is what I agree on, but you don't. You want blacks to be able to do and say whatever they want, because they have been oppressed. Today there are still strides to be made, things are not equal or perfect. But, this does NOT give anyone the right to treat others badly, even blacks.

I've never said it was OK to call anyone names. You are here arguing from a position of victimhood. I know you can't understand that because you just don't have the knowledge and you think a victim can only be a black person standing up against racism, but that's not victimhood, what you are doing is. You are the one not for equal treatment. Because if there are strides still to be made it means that equal treatment does not exist. Molly yo think what you ae saying makes sense, but it doesn't. It's stupid. You assume I want blacks to be able to do and say anything because we were oppressed, Do you not understand how stupid that sounds? You say I don't want equal treatment. Based on what can you make that comment? You make no sense but you run your mouth day in and day out because others just as dumb will jump on anyone who doesn't go along with the racism. Molly, if you had the ovarian fortitude, I could shows you how whites have got what they have beginning in 1618 that has allowed them to be were they are today. And if you think that 243 years of working for free has no impact on the black community today while sons and daughters of the revolution and other whites are now in the 15th or 16th generation of turning over old money. then you are crazy as hell.

This discussion is not just about you, and it's not just about me. It is about blacks and whites, two distinct groups in America with histories and those histories are direct opposites of one another. So until whites like you understand that and keep trying to argue like we have had the same experience and you ignore the macro level of this argument to talk about what you haven't' done at the micro level, you are a waste of time.

There ya go again, the past, 1618? Really? I don't have old money so I can't relate. I never said we have the same experiences, NEVER ONCE compared them.I am not playing the victim. I have not been victimized. You are crying on here all the time. You think I don't deserve to comment. Just what are you doing on here, other than arguing about anything I post? If I am a waste of time, go away and shut the fuck up. Just because I don't think you should call whites names you get butt hurt and blabber about other shit that is irrelevant. The past is irrelevant when it comes to treating people right, when they don't deserve mistreatment. You can't understand that. I do make sense, you just don't have the sense to understand anything other than your one-sided views.

While I was running my errand a few incidents came to mind where I was called white ass, white bitch, etc. etc. by a black woman, who was my neighbor. I tried to reason with her from time to time, tried to get a mediator, but nothing worked. Tried ignoring her, but she persisted. Finally, she actually threatened to kill me so I took her to court and eventually got a restraining order. She eventually moved away.

The next time it was a teenage black girl who harassed me and called me white this, that and the other. She eventually threatened me also. I took her to court but because she had family members who worked at court, our case kept getting delayed. I finally wrote to the District Attorney and the next court date we were heard and got a restraining order. She eventually moved away also.

None of this was pleasant, but I treated each of these people as individuals with obvious problems. It did not make me dislike or blame all black people of racism or hating white people. I knew far too many good black people by then.

I don't blame all black people for anything. I know and love many black people. I have many black relatives that I love tremendously. A lot of blacks say blacks can't be racist, what do you call the way you were treated, if not racism?

I actually call it anger, maybe hatred. But I believe personally that racism is much more than prejudice against someone for their color. I believe it is a system for controlling people who are perceived to be "less than."

 

[LOIE]

This is worthy of discussion. But more than a vague accusation is needed to adequately address the issue. So please be specific about the ". . . damage that has yet to be fixed." Specifically what damage are you referring to? And specifically how would you recommend it be fixed?


Specifically what consequences would you consider adequate compensation for the past offenses ("damages") you are referencing?

You cannot go to court and say someone did something harmful to you and you demand compensation. That's not enough. You need to be specific about the alleged damages and specific about your compensation demand.

The problem you (and others) have in this forum is your complaints are limited to presumptive allegations.

Hope nobody minds me jumping in here. I would like to share a couple stories I heard last weekend. One older black lady told about when she was a child and her mother did domestic work for white people. Her mom always talked about how wonderful the family was to her and how much she appreciated that they let her work for them and treated her decently. Her mother did not know, however that when she went along to work with her and spent time with the white children, they teased her mercilessly and called her names. She put up with all most daily dehumanization, but never told her mother. Now she is a woman in her 80's and to this very day, cries over those painful memories.

Another older black lady cried as she told about a woman she considered her second mother. One day she wondered why this woman had no children of her own. When she asked, she was told that when she was young she had some female problems and went to the doctor. They did an operation and told her she would be fine. But for years after that she tried to conceive and never could. Finally, a doctor told her that the previous doctor had done a hysterectomy and never told her. He said that it was common practice back then in that state to control the black population. You could feel and see the pain this woman experienced to this very day.

Emotional trauma, I believe, can be passed from generation to generation just like inherited diseases. Painful memories and even pain from stories that happened generations ago, still linger. There can never be enough financial restitution to take away emotional pain. There can be at least partial healing when folks are given the opportunity to unburden themselves and are received with grace and understanding. There can be at least partial healing, like there was in the room where we gathered together, when folks hugged, cried together and offered apologies for the way these women had been mistreated.

There are countless similar stories whether or not you believe them and whether or not you think the pain is real. I do not think our nation has done nearly enough to right our wrongs.

Jump in any time delores.

Sorry, I had to go out for a while. Like I've often said, although laws may be currently on the books that make certain acts of discrimination illegal, the implementation of those laws are not always carried through and so many things that used to be done openly are now done quietly and are done in such a way to be nearly impossible to prove in a court of law.

I agree. It isn't always regarding race either. People will hire who they want, regardless of the laws. Some won't hire blacks, Mexican's, orientals, women, etc.

Of course there is no more racism Race is never considered even though blacks are unemployed at double the rate of whites, it just means that all the blacks who did not get hired were unqualified. It's not about it always being about anything it is that it happens at all.

Racism by whites is a major problem in this nation. Denying it allows it to continue.

Here's some more of the book So You Want To Talk About Race.

"No discussion of racism is just about one incident for people of color, because we cannot divorce ourselves from the past pain of systematic racism, or the future repercussion of current abuse. When people of color talk about systematic racism, far more than feelings have been hurt and far more than feelings are at stake. When people of color are talking about racism, no matter the immediate subject, they are also always talking about lifelong abuse at the hands of society.

If you've been privileged enough to not suffer from the cumulative effects of systemic racism, and are therefore able to look at racially charged situations one at a time and then let it go, please recognize that very few people of color are able to enter into discussions on racism with the same freedom. When people of color speak out about systemic racism, they are opening up all of that pain and fear and anger to you. They are not doing this because they enjoy it. We do this because we have to, because systemic racism is killing us. And yes, that pain and fear and anger will sometimes show in our words and our actions. But to see all that pain and how we fight still after entire lifetimes of struggle - and then tell us to be more polite is just plain cruel. To refuse to listen to someone's cries for justice and equality until the request comes in a language you feel comfortable with is a way of asserting your dominance over them in the situation."

I think we as white people have a lot to learn.

 

[MizMolly]

This is worthy of discussion. But more than a vague accusation is needed to adequately address the issue. So please be specific about the ". . . damage that has yet to be fixed." Specifically what damage are you referring to? And specifically how would you recommend it be fixed?


Specifically what consequences would you consider adequate compensation for the past offenses ("damages") you are referencing?

You cannot go to court and say someone did something harmful to you and you demand compensation. That's not enough. You need to be specific about the alleged damages and specific about your compensation demand.

The problem you (and others) have in this forum is your complaints are limited to presumptive allegations.

Hope nobody minds me jumping in here. I would like to share a couple stories I heard last weekend. One older black lady told about when she was a child and her mother did domestic work for white people. Her mom always talked about how wonderful the family was to her and how much she appreciated that they let her work for them and treated her decently. Her mother did not know, however that when she went along to work with her and spent time with the white children, they teased her mercilessly and called her names. She put up with all most daily dehumanization, but never told her mother. Now she is a woman in her 80's and to this very day, cries over those painful memories.

Another older black lady cried as she told about a woman she considered her second mother. One day she wondered why this woman had no children of her own. When she asked, she was told that when she was young she had some female problems and went to the doctor. They did an operation and told her she would be fine. But for years after that she tried to conceive and never could. Finally, a doctor told her that the previous doctor had done a hysterectomy and never told her. He said that it was common practice back then in that state to control the black population. You could feel and see the pain this woman experienced to this very day.

Emotional trauma, I believe, can be passed from generation to generation just like inherited diseases. Painful memories and even pain from stories that happened generations ago, still linger. There can never be enough financial restitution to take away emotional pain. There can be at least partial healing when folks are given the opportunity to unburden themselves and are received with grace and understanding. There can be at least partial healing, like there was in the room where we gathered together, when folks hugged, cried together and offered apologies for the way these women had been mistreated.

There are countless similar stories whether or not you believe them and whether or not you think the pain is real. I do not think our nation has done nearly enough to right our wrongs.

Jump in any time delores.

Sorry, I had to go out for a while. Like I've often said, although laws may be currently on the books that make certain acts of discrimination illegal, the implementation of those laws are not always carried through and so many things that used to be done openly are now done quietly and are done in such a way to be nearly impossible to prove in a court of law.

I agree. It isn't always regarding race either. People will hire who they want, regardless of the laws. Some won't hire blacks, Mexican's, orientals, women, etc.

Of course there is no more racism Race is never considered even though blacks are unemployed at double the rate of whites, it just means that all the blacks who did not get hired were unqualified. It's not about it always being about anything it is that it happens at all.

Racism by whites is a major problem in this nation. Denying it allows it to continue.

I never denied it. I don't know how to fix it. What do you suggest?