The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[Kondor3]

...Food for thought?

Indeed. Vae victis. Think on that.

 

[abi]

Well, aside from your rule that we are not to use biblical stories as an historical reference, who cares? There is ample proof that a Jewish society existed in Jerusalem for roughly 3000 years. What is your point?

The whole temple mount issue can be put to rest. How can you not see that? If the wall is from a Roman fort, and the temple was actually somewhere else, then the zionists can just build it there. What today is where the city of David was? Is it not already a settlement controlled by zionists?

 

[Boston1]

OK I don't believe in the dogma either but that doesn't negate the fact that if you read the rest of that book you'll find they CONFIRM that the Judaic people were descendant of the Hyksos who had lived in that area since at least the early bronze age.

Cherry picking facts doesn't work in climate science and it doesn't work in anti semitic diatribe either.

PS I don't recall these mythical "zionists" you mention being enraged. As I recall the work was well accepted as a proof the Judaic people had existed in that exact area for "time immemorial" ;-)

 

[Roudy]

Shusha has been asking about this and as biblical stories are central to the zionist narrative, I thought I'd give it a shot. Does this offer the Palestinian people any hope? I guess it depends if we can put science ahead of biblical tales, thus being able to change the narrative... and no, not an easy ask.

Back in 2002, two archeologists, Israel Finkelstein from Israel and Neil Asher Silberman from America, but who studied archeology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, published a book that had the zionists going crazy because both of these men were highly respected in their field.
Israel Finkelstein - Wikipedia
Neil Asher Silberman - Wikipedia

What is strange is that this was not the first time that this information had been published. Their work actually replicated prior work that was done by another Israeli, Ze'ev Herzog, who published many of the same findings in 1999.

So, what are these findings and why did the zionists become enraged?

Herzog cites evidence supporting that "the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the god of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai".
Ze'ev Herzog - Wikipedia

...many of the most famous stories in the Bible—the wanderings of the patriarchs, the Exodus from Egypt, Joshua’s conquest of Canaan, and David and Solomon’s vast empire—reflect the world of the later authors rather than actual historical facts...
https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Vision-Ancient/dp/0684869136&tag=ff0d01-20

Food for thought?

Interesting you mention archeology, Jews have thousands of artifacts and archeological sites that prove beyond a doubt that the land belonged to Jews. In other words, Jewish ties to the land are not only spiritual and cultural, but most importantly the PHYSICAL evidence is overwhelming.

On the other hand, there is not aota of evidence pointing to this fictional Palestinian land or Palestinian people. Nada, nil, kaput, zero, zip, butcus.

 

[Coyote]

Shusha has been asking about this and as biblical stories are central to the zionist narrative, I thought I'd give it a shot. Does this offer the Palestinian people any hope? I guess it depends if we can put science ahead of biblical tales, thus being able to change the narrative... and no, not an easy ask.

Back in 2002, two archeologists, Israel Finkelstein from Israel and Neil Asher Silberman from America, but who studied archeology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, published a book that had the zionists going crazy because both of these men were highly respected in their field.
Israel Finkelstein - Wikipedia
Neil Asher Silberman - Wikipedia

What is strange is that this was not the first time that this information had been published. Their work actually replicated prior work that was done by another Israeli, Ze'ev Herzog, who published many of the same findings in 1999.

So, what are these findings and why did the zionists become enraged?

Herzog cites evidence supporting that "the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the god of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai".
Ze'ev Herzog - Wikipedia

...many of the most famous stories in the Bible—the wanderings of the patriarchs, the Exodus from Egypt, Joshua’s conquest of Canaan, and David and Solomon’s vast empire—reflect the world of the later authors rather than actual historical facts...
https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Vision-Ancient/dp/0684869136&tag=ff0d01-20

Food for thought?

That doesn't really change anything - for example, they never dispute the Jews; historic ties to Israel. Most of the stories are the mythology of an ancient people, a mixture of fact and fiction. Whether they were a small tribal kingdom or a regional power hardly matters.

 

[abi]

That doesn't really change anything - for example, they never dispute the Jews; historic ties to Israel. Most of the stories are the mythology of an ancient people, a mixture of fact and fiction. Whether they were a small tribal kingdom or a regional power hardly matters.

Maybe, maybe not, but more importantly, their imagined third temple might not have to be built on the Mount. They might have created this whole mess for nothing. Their claims that Muslims built their temple on top of Jewish ones do not appear to hold water. They very well might have been praying at a wall that was actually just a wall of their Roman conquerors. The irony, I know.

 

[Coyote]

That doesn't really change anything - for example, they never dispute the Jews; historic ties to Israel. Most of the stories are the mythology of an ancient people, a mixture of fact and fiction. Whether they were a small tribal kingdom or a regional power hardly matters.

Maybe, maybe not, but more importantly, their imagined third temple might not have to be built on the Mount. They might have created this whole mess for nothing. Their claims that Muslims built their temple on top of Jewish ones do not appear to hold water. They very well might have been praying at a wall that was actually just a wall of their Roman conquerors. The irony, I know.

In the end what difference does it make? These are events that occurred over three thousand years ago. What matters is what people believe.

Why do you work so hard at disenfranchising the Jewish people from their heritage?

 

[abi]

In the end what difference does it make? These are events that occurred over three thousand years ago. What matters is what people believe.

You don't see why it is important to know if there ever was a Jewish temple there? You don't see how this can end a huge part of the problem?

Why do you work so hard at disenfranchising the Jewish people from their heritage?

That is in your fantasy. I want peace. This is one path to beginning that process.

 

[Yarddog]

I read his book years ago. I know all of the definitive findings which prove them wrong. I understand how you've twisted the narrative. None of that matters if you won't accept any evidence. So....what evidence will you accept?

Show me the evidence and let's go from there. I call your bluff.

Where exactly do you say Jews come from then? They pre- date any Muslim country or city existing to day and actually they lived ALL over the Middle east for centuries from Tunisia to Yemen. SO maybe we can say all of the ME is jewish homeland since we cant seem to nail it down here.

 

[Coyote]

In the end what difference does it make? These are events that occurred over three thousand years ago. What matters is what people believe.

You don't see why it is important to know if there ever was a Jewish temple there? You don't see how this can end a huge part of the problem?

Why do you work so hard at disenfranchising the Jewish people from their heritage?

That is in your fantasy. I want peace. This is one path to beginning that process.

Abi, I don't get it. You threads almost entirely are based on delegitimizing the Jews - questioning their history, their existence, their beliefs, their identity. How is that a path towards the process of peace?

As far as I can tell, that path usually only leads towards the deliberate destruction of a people. First you remove their identity, then you take away their history, then you take away their future. It's being done to the Palestinians - the relentless arguments that they are not a "real" people, that they are just Jordanian Arabs, that they have no roots. And here you are doing it to the Jews.

This is supposed to promote peace?

 

[fncceo]

Shusha has been asking about this and as biblical stories are central to the zionist narrative, I thought I'd give it a shot. Does this offer the Palestinian people any hope? I guess it depends if we can put science ahead of biblical tales, thus being able to change the narrative... and no, not an easy ask.

Back in 2002, two archeologists, Israel Finkelstein from Israel and Neil Asher Silberman from America, but who studied archeology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, published a book that had the zionists going crazy because both of these men were highly respected in their field.
Israel Finkelstein - Wikipedia
Neil Asher Silberman - Wikipedia

What is strange is that this was not the first time that this information had been published. Their work actually replicated prior work that was done by another Israeli, Ze'ev Herzog, who published many of the same findings in 1999.

So, what are these findings and why did the zionists become enraged?

Herzog cites evidence supporting that "the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the god of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai".
Ze'ev Herzog - Wikipedia

...many of the most famous stories in the Bible—the wanderings of the patriarchs, the Exodus from Egypt, Joshua’s conquest of Canaan, and David and Solomon’s vast empire—reflect the world of the later authors rather than actual historical facts...
https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Vision-Ancient/dp/0684869136&tag=ff0d01-20

Food for thought?

Oh no! I've seen the light ... all the Jews are gonna pack their bags and get out of the Promised Land...

Well ... maybe not ...

 

[abi]

Abi, I don't get it. You threads almost entirely are based on delegitimizing the Jews - questioning their history, their existence, their beliefs, their identity. How is that a path towards the process of peace?

That isn't, but I don't do that. You and Shusha (your sock?) constantly create these same straw men to argue with.

As far as I can tell, that path usually only leads towards the deliberate destruction of a people. First you remove their identity, then you take away their history, then you take away their future. It's being done to the Palestinians - the relentless arguments that they are not a "real" people, that they are just Jordanian Arabs, that they have no roots. And here you are doing it to the Jews.

I am not doing that to Jews (see above). And the Jewish people will be fine regardless of the horror the Palestinians have suffered at the hands of the zionists for decades.

This is supposed to promote peace?

Yes, as I explained, they might have created this whole mess for nothing. Their claims that Muslims built their temple on top of Jewish ones do not appear to hold water. They very well might have been praying at a wall that was actually just a wall of their Roman conquerors. The irony, I know.

We actually might be able to end this by simply looking at the facts.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

The Bible (both the Hebrew and Christian parts of it) can be divided into 2 categories (possible myths and fact-based). Ppl can say that the stories of the Garden of Eden, Noah's Ark and the Tower of Babel are myths. But that a Jewish kingdom existed in the Middle East cannot be refuted. Plenty of archaeology points to that fact. For instance, there is the Mesha Stone, where the king of Moab speaks of his battles against Omri, king of Israel. Josephus and the New Testament attest to the fact there there was a Kingdom of Judea, however big or small it was. Have you ever gone to the Israel Museum in Jerusalem, a Dead Sea Scrolls exhibition, or walked thru the Western Wall tunnels, which point directly to the Temples that once stood there? I would guess that the answers to all of these questions are "no." Even your historical quotes by ppl saying, "The Jewish kingdom is no more" means that there must've been a Jewish kingdom there sometime. So what exactly is your point in all this?

 

[Roudy]

Abi, I don't get it. You threads almost entirely are based on delegitimizing the Jews - questioning their history, their existence, their beliefs, their identity. How is that a path towards the process of peace?

That isn't, but I don't do that. You and Shusha (your sock?) constantly create these same straw men to argue with.

As far as I can tell, that path usually only leads towards the deliberate destruction of a people. First you remove their identity, then you take away their history, then you take away their future. It's being done to the Palestinians - the relentless arguments that they are not a "real" people, that they are just Jordanian Arabs, that they have no roots. And here you are doing it to the Jews.

I am not doing that to Jews (see above). And the Jewish people will be fine regardless of the horror the Palestinians have suffered at the hands of the zionists for decades.

This is supposed to promote peace?

Yes, as I explained, they might have created this whole mess for nothing. Their claims that Muslims built their temple on top of Jewish ones do not appear to hold water. They very well might have been praying at a wall that was actually just a wall of their Roman conquerors. The irony, I know.

We actually might be able to end this by simply looking at the facts.

Hold what water, blabbermouth? It is a historical fact that when Muslims invaded and conquered lands, they always either tore down religious sites and, or changed it into their mosque. Take a look around the world and you will evidence of that. The Sofia mosque in Turkey and so many Churches in Spain, and in the ME in Egypt , Lebanon etc. which used to all be Christian lands at one point.

Speaking of myths....Let us know when you have evidence that Muhammad's spirit rode on a flying donkey to a mosque in Jerusalem after he died.

 

[Roudy]

Shusha has been asking about this and as biblical stories are central to the zionist narrative, I thought I'd give it a shot. Does this offer the Palestinian people any hope? I guess it depends if we can put science ahead of biblical tales, thus being able to change the narrative... and no, not an easy ask.

Back in 2002, two archeologists, Israel Finkelstein from Israel and Neil Asher Silberman from America, but who studied archeology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, published a book that had the zionists going crazy because both of these men were highly respected in their field.
Israel Finkelstein - Wikipedia
Neil Asher Silberman - Wikipedia

What is strange is that this was not the first time that this information had been published. Their work actually replicated prior work that was done by another Israeli, Ze'ev Herzog, who published many of the same findings in 1999.

So, what are these findings and why did the zionists become enraged?

Herzog cites evidence supporting that "the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the god of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai".
Ze'ev Herzog - Wikipedia

...many of the most famous stories in the Bible—the wanderings of the patriarchs, the Exodus from Egypt, Joshua’s conquest of Canaan, and David and Solomon’s vast empire—reflect the world of the later authors rather than actual historical facts...
https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Vision-Ancient/dp/0684869136&tag=ff0d01-20

Food for thought?

Oh no! I've seen the light ... all the Jews are gonna pack their bags and get out of the Promised Land...

Well ... maybe not ...

Maybe the one on the right is going away anyway. any day now she will be diagnosed with melanoma.

 

[abi]

The Bible (both the Hebrew and Christian parts of it) can be divided into 2 categories (possible myths and fact-based). Ppl can say that the stories of the Garden of Eden, Noah's Ark and the Tower of Babel are myths. But that a Jewish kingdom existed in the Middle East cannot be refuted. Plenty of archaeology points to that fact. For instance, there is the Mesha Stone, where the king of Moab speaks of his battles against Omri, king of Israel. Josephus and the New Testament attest to the fact there there was a Kingdom of Judea, however big or small it was. Have you ever gone to the Israel Museum in Jerusalem, a Dead Sea Scrolls exhibition, or walked thru the Western Wall tunnels, which point directly to the Temples that once stood there? I would guess that the answers to all of these questions are "no." Even your historical quotes by ppl saying, "The Jewish kingdom is no more" means that there must've been a Jewish kingdom there sometime. So what exactly is your point in all this?

Do you understand the difference between your post and this discussion?

What if the Jews are praying at a wall that was the wall of a Roman fort? What if the temple was actually close by in the City of David as the Torah and archeologists suggest?

 

[Coyote]

Abi, I don't get it. You threads almost entirely are based on delegitimizing the Jews - questioning their history, their existence, their beliefs, their identity. How is that a path towards the process of peace?

That isn't, but I don't do that. You and Shusha (your sock?) constantly create these same straw men to argue with.

As far as I can tell, that path usually only leads towards the deliberate destruction of a people. First you remove their identity, then you take away their history, then you take away their future. It's being done to the Palestinians - the relentless arguments that they are not a "real" people, that they are just Jordanian Arabs, that they have no roots. And here you are doing it to the Jews.

I am not doing that to Jews (see above). And the Jewish people will be fine regardless of the horror the Palestinians have suffered at the hands of the zionists for decades.

This is supposed to promote peace?

Yes, as I explained, they might have created this whole mess for nothing. Their claims that Muslims built their temple on top of Jewish ones do not appear to hold water. They very well might have been praying at a wall that was actually just a wall of their Roman conquerors. The irony, I know.

We actually might be able to end this by simply looking at the facts.

Religion is not about facts but about belief. Even assuming what you are saying is factual, that is not going to change thousands of years of history and belief. Your idea of a path to peace would seem to be Jews giving up what the believe and quietly leaving it all to the Muslims rather than a mutual acceotance and tolerance of each oters rights to worship.

 

[abi]

Religion is not about facts but about belief. Even assuming what you are saying is factual, that is not going to change thousands of years of history and belief. Your idea of a path to peace would seem to be Jews giving up what the believe and quietly leaving it all to the Muslims rather than a mutual acceotance and tolerance of each oters rights to worship.

I have said from the start that when the narrative is proven false, change the narrative, not the facts.

Beliefs are fine, but if understanding simple facts can lead to peace, I would chose to abandon my beliefs for the sake of both truth and peace.

 

[Shusha]

Religion is not about facts but about belief. Even assuming what you are saying is factual, that is not going to change thousands of years of history and belief. Your idea of a path to peace would seem to be Jews giving up what the believe and quietly leaving it all to the Muslims rather than a mutual acceotance and tolerance of each oters rights to worship.

I have said from the start that when the narrative is proven false, change the narrative, not the facts.

Beliefs are fine, but if understanding simple facts can lead to peace, I would chose to abandon my beliefs for the sake of both truth and peace.

Good. Abandon your belief that there is little connection of the Jewish people to that land and that the Jewish people invent history in contravention of facts. For truth and peace.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Shusha has been asking about this and as biblical stories are central to the zionist narrative, I thought I'd give it a shot. Does this offer the Palestinian people any hope? I guess it depends if we can put science ahead of biblical tales, thus being able to change the narrative... and no, not an easy ask.

Back in 2002, two archeologists, Israel Finkelstein from Israel and Neil Asher Silberman from America, but who studied archeology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, published a book that had the zionists going crazy because both of these men were highly respected in their field.
Israel Finkelstein - Wikipedia
Neil Asher Silberman - Wikipedia

What is strange is that this was not the first time that this information had been published. Their work actually replicated prior work that was done by another Israeli, Ze'ev Herzog, who published many of the same findings in 1999.

So, what are these findings and why did the zionists become enraged?

Herzog cites evidence supporting that "the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the god of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai".
Ze'ev Herzog - Wikipedia

...many of the most famous stories in the Bible—the wanderings of the patriarchs, the Exodus from Egypt, Joshua’s conquest of Canaan, and David and Solomon’s vast empire—reflect the world of the later authors rather than actual historical facts...
https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Vision-Ancient/dp/0684869136&tag=ff0d01-20

Food for thought?

3 historians disagree with thousands historians.


do the math