The Rapture

[pacer]

BTW, Why dumb yourself down to warp speed (a fictional unit of measure), when you have the factual speed of light at your disposal?

It was not in my vocabulary. It came with the source reference. But why ridicule.

 

[Chuckt]

I post articles to this board and then discuss the contents in my own words. You post articles and then proceed to quote the articles and inundate the board with Bible references.

It cuts down on making mistakes, keeps me on topic and it is the way to do things. It is the religion forum which should mean it is allowed.

It is the way I communicate and if I was to post a Bible study which should be allowed and I don't know why I wouldn't be allowed, I would post Bible verses, references, etc., because that is the preferred method of teaching, expounding, explaining, etc.

But we are not your students, here. This is a discussion board. We exchange ideas and opinions. If we have to sift through a ton of biblical references no one will read, it is very frustrating.

What is the matter? It is probably the only time you are going to read it and learn something.

 

[pacer]

What is the matter? It is probably the only time you are going to read it and learn something.

I do not want to learn. I want your opinion.

 

[Chuckt]

What is the matter? It is probably the only time you are going to read it and learn something.

I do not want to learn. I want your opinion.

That is the problem. You want the ignorance of man who hasn't had the truth revealed. The Garden was lost. Access to God was lost. You're knowledge will be incomplete. If you want revelation, inspiration and illumination then you have to communicate God's way and He left it to you in His word.

 

[pacer]

What is the matter? It is probably the only time you are going to read it and learn something.

I do not want to learn. I want your opinion.

That is the problem. You want the ignorance of man who hasn't had the truth revealed. The Garden was lost. Access to God was lost. You're knowledge will be incomplete. If you want revelation, inspiration and illumination then you have to communicate God's way and He left it to you in His word.

If I want to learn about religion, there are plenty of facilities I can attend in my home town. I do not need to stay glued to my computer. I do not want to learn. I want YOUR opinion, in your own words.

 

[The Irish Ram]

BTW, Why dumb yourself down to warp speed (a fictional unit of measure), when you have the factual speed of light at your disposal?

It was not in my vocabulary. It came with the source reference. But why ridicule.

Does it matter that it is not your vocabulary, if you elude to it as fact? Do you believe the source? If so, Bible scripture disagrees.
Look at the delusion we teach in school, by quoting Darwin instead of using discernment.
Did anyone bother to ask Darwin why with over 1,000 bat fossils from various time frames, not one transitional bat ancestor has ever been unearthed? Wouldn't you like to see just 1 partial vertebrae ancestor for conformation?
We have scientists drawing feathers on dinos to present what a transitional bird ancestor might look like if there was one, and then those pictures turn up in our children's homework as real fossil finds. Cro magnum man is a plaster cast of a compilation of a monkey's jaw attached to the cranium of a human. You've been duped.

If you want the truth, pay attention to Chuck's post. The truth isn't always found in people's opinions, but is never absent from the Word.

When Satan tempted Eve, she gave Satan her opinion on what would happen if she ate the apple. Satan prevailed, because Eve's opinion was wrong. And we are still paying the consequence of her opinion.
Conversely, when Christ was tempted by Satan, not once did He express His opinion. He relied solely on what is written. Christ prevailed.

So which are you more interested in, what someone else thinks, or what God knows?

 

[pacer]

So which are you more interested in, what someone else thinks, or what God knows?

What someone else thinks.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Then be prepared to hear, "The truth is not in you."

 

[pacer]

I like to hear/read other people's opinions just as you stated yours.

 

[strollingbones]

the term rapture is not in the bible...it is a concept that becomes popular in the late 1800s

doesnt the bible say...even the angels in heaven do not know when the world will end?

 

[pacer]

the term rapture is not in the bible...it is a concept that becomes popular in the late 1800s

John Nelson Darby, a 19th-century theologian was the originator of the Rapture theory

THE ORIGIN OF THE RAPTURE THEORY

Credit for its origin generally goes to John Nelson Darby, a 19th-century theologian.

Let's define some common terms to help one navigate the technicalities, for in reading about the rapture, you will often encounter the words postmillennialism, amillennialism and premillennialism . First, the root word, Millennium, comes from the Latin for 1,000 years. Religiously, it refers to the first 1,000 years of Christ's reign over the Kingdom of God on earth (Revelation 20:4)

A postmillennialist believes that Christ returns to establish the Kingdom on earth after the 1,000 years; an amillennialist doesn't believe that the Kingdom is coming at all; a premillennialist believes that Christ returns before the Millennium to set up His Kingdom as described in Revelation 20:4.

In the century before Darby, Daniel Whitby pushed the philosophy of postmillennialism in England. "This interpretation maintains that present gospel agencies will root out evils until Christ will have a spiritual reign over the earth, which will continue for 1,000 years. Then the second advent of Christ will initiate judgment and bring to an end the present order" ( Unger's Bible Dictionary, 1988, "Millennium").

Postmillennialism gives life to the idea of "the social gospel" and the belief that the Church can actually bring about the Kingdom by its actions. It has led to many Christian churches involving themselves in politics on the premise that they are virtually obligated to lobby governments in the direction of godliness.

There were also amillennialists in Darby's day. He labored to correct both false teachings. Darby believed, rightly, that Jesus Christ would return to earth to establish and rule over the Kingdom of God. Darby was a premillennialist.

But in his zeal for countering error, he added another—the rapture theory. He believed he understood a new truth, an idea that had not been taught in the history of Christendom. While he was most likely sincere, sincerity alone does not make one right.

"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation" (2 Peter 1:20) New International Version).

How do we know whether God inspired John Darby with new understanding? It actually would not be difficult to verify. Jesus said, "...the Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35), meaning Scripture agrees within itself.

If the rapture were truly a biblical doctrine, it would mesh with all other scriptural references to Christ's coming. But it does not stand up to that test, as we will see.

COMPLETE ARTICLE: The Rapture A Popular but False Doctrine - World News and Prophecy | United Church of God

 

[koshergrl]

So, pacer, tell us exactly where heaven is located?

 

[pacer]

I already did in the poll thread.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Pacer, I understand what you are saying, but if someone has an opinion, don't you consider the source they used to formulate it?
There was a popular poem in the sixties that said to listen, that even the fool has his story. That's true. But who wants to follow a fool's ideas when you have a genius for a father?

You seem like a pretty smart person already, and open minded, which is hard to find. But, If you are welcoming opinions, consider what the opinions are based on, before committing to a viewpoint, otherwise you may end up a fool yourself. That's all I'm trying to say.
Then, when someone tells you Christ is still trying to navigate past the Milky Way, you can say, "Dimensions Dawkins, you fool!" Just like Hubble,(and scripture) said to Einstein, "4 dimensions, not 3. Time Einstein, you fool!"

Bones,
Not only is the rapture mentioned, but we are also told the who, what, when, where, and how it occurs, and how long it takes.
The world never ends but the condition of it is transformed, mankind having rendered it uninhabitable in the coming war, prompting Christ's return.
Not even Christ Himself knows the hour that God will tell Him to return but we have been given signs that give us a pretty specific time line. Blood moons can be considered, and a knowledge of Jewish tradition will narrow it down even further, Jesus keeping with tradition during His life and resurrection.
I'm betting on a Jubilee year.

 

[koshergrl]

I already did in the poll thread.

Ooooh...so you located heaven in another thread via poll.



You're a freaking loon, and your garbage grows tiresome.

 

[daws101]

I already did in the poll thread.

Ooooh...so you located heaven in another thread via poll.



You're a freaking loon, and your garbage grows tiresome.

if irony ever needed a poster child KG is it!

 

[koshergrl]

I like the trolls and how they spam the religion thread, to make sure no serious discussion ever takes place, and Christians are made to feel stupid, unwelcome, and hated in general.

I particularly like the disingenuous nature of the spams...starting threads that appear to pose a serious question, which is revealed to be just a bait post, a few posts into the thread...and which in turn branch out into more bait threads...

It's all quite illuminating regarding the nature of the anti-Christian bigots participating.

 

[pacer]

I like the trolls

You are a troll.

 

[pacer]

1. Rapture doctrine is one of the most recent "new doctrines" in the history of the Church. The only doctrine more recent is the invention of the sinner's prayer for salvation by Billy Sunday in 1930, which was made popular by Billy Graham in 1935.

2. The fact that John Nelson Darby invented the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine around 1830 AD is unquestionably true. All attempts to find evidence of this wild doctrine before 1830 have failed, with a single exception: Morgan Edwards wrote a short essay as a college paper for Bristol Baptist College in Bristol England in 1744 where he confused the second coming with the first resurrection of Revelation 20 and described a "pre-tribulation" rapture. However Edwards ideas, which he admitted were brand new and never before taught, had no influence in the modern population of the false doctrine. That prize to goes to Darby.

3. Prior to 1830, no church taught it in their creed, catechism or statement of faith.

4. Darby has had a profound impact on religion today, since Darby's "secret rapture" false doctrine has infected most conservative, evangelical churches. While the official creeds and statements of faith of many churches either reject or are silent about Rapture, neither do they openly condemn this doctrine of a demon from the pulpit.

5. While not all dispensationalists believe in the Rapture. All those who teach the Rapture also believe in premillennialism. Both groups use Israel's modern statehood status of 1948 to be a beginning of a countdown to the end.

6. All premillennialists, rapturists and dispensationalists alive today believe the Bible reveals the general era of when Christ will return. The date setters of the 1800's (Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses) based their predictions upon speculative arrangements of numbers and chronologies in the Bible. Today's date setters without exception wrongly believe that Israel gaining state hood in 1948 fulfilled Bible prophecy and that Christ would return within one generation.

7. There are two kinds of premillennialists: Those "Date setters" and "Date Teasers". "Date setters", set specific dates which are in fact a countdown clock to the extinction of their own ministries. (William Miller, Charles Russell, Ronald Weinland, Harold Camping, etc.) "Date teasers", share the same rhetoric of urgency that the "end is very soon", but refuse to lock into a specific date. (Jack Van Impe, Hal Lindsay, Tim LaHaye, Pentecostals, Baptists, Grant Jefferies, Christadelphians.)

8. Most of the TV preachers who promote rapture and/or "date set" all wrongly believe they are a prophet of God with special illumination. Pentecostals believe they are inspired directly from the Holy Spirit as modern day prophets. Baptists believe they are illuminated with guidance from the Holy Spirit through the Calvinist doctrine of Irresistible grace.

9. Christians reject all these false notions of God illuminating man and rely upon the pages of the Bible alone as a sole source of conduct and doctrine. . Find a church that exposes the Rapture as a heresy in your own home town.

A. False assumptions of Rapture and premillennialism.

1. False: The kingdom is something distinct from the church.

Truth: The kingdom is the church which was established on the day of Pentecost in 30 AD. We are in the kingdom now: Col 1:13; Rev 1:6,9.

2. False: Reviving the Roman empire to keep time prophecies of Dan 2,7,8,9 from failing.

Truth: The final kingdom Daniel saw was Rome. God set up his kingdom during the Roman empire which began in 30 BC and was destroyed in 397 AD. The kingdom is the church which was started on Pentecost.

3. False: Daniel saw 13 kingdoms:

Truth: Daniel saw 4 kingdoms: Babylon, Medo-persia, Greece and Rome. The last kingdom had ten toes, representing 10 Caesars/rulers/kings not 10 additional kingdoms for a total of 13 kingdoms.

4. False: Christ will return in one generation from the time Israel became a nation in 1948.

Truth: Mt 23:34; 24:34 speak about how the Herodian temple in Jerusalem will be destroyed within one generation. This indeed came to pass with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD by Titus. Notice the parallel: "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. " (Luke 21:20)

5. False: Israel never possessed all the land promised to Abraham and must return to fulfill this promise.

Truth: God made three promises to Abraham and all three were fulfilled at the time of Joshua - Solomon. "And the LORD gave them rest on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the LORD gave all their enemies into their hand. Not one of the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass. " (Joshua 21:44-45) Here is a detailed outline showing that Israel possessed all the land promised Abraham.

6. False: The Mosaic Old Testament temple will be rebuilt on the temple mount in Jerusalem complete with animal sacrifices and Aaronic priests.

Truth: The Old Testament was nailed to the cross and abolished: Heb 8:13. To go back to animal sacrifices is to deny Christ: "And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. " (Galatians 5:3-4) Restoring animal sacrifices nullifies the sacrifice of the blood of Christ on the cross which was the last blood sacrifice for all future eternity: "Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, " (Hebrews 10:11-12)

7. False: Entering the 7th millennium in 2000 AD

Truth: The bible indicates that the world is about 6119 years old in 2011. See this creation time chart and chronology.

8. False: Y2K bug of 1999 AD

Truth: Wild speculation that TV preachers and Rapturists used to whip up end time predictions. It was a non-event... again.

9. False: The prophetic clock stopped in the 69th week of Daniel's prophecy when the Jews rejected Christ as their earthly king because God wasn't expecting the Jews to reject Jesus. Each of the first 69 weeks was a period of seven years, but he last week has already been almost 2000 years. The prophetic clock starts ticking again at the "Rapture" which is the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel. There will be 3 ½ years of peace followed by 3 ½ years of tribulation.

Truth: God foresaw everything just as it happened in the gospels. A prophecy clock cannot stop or slow down or change rate of time passing. The 70th week continued and came to and end before 40 AD. Rapturists believe that the entire New Testament period is something that God had to think up on the fly when the Jews rejected Jesus as their king. So God had to think up the church age as a stop gap measure until God could try a second time to get the Jews to accept Jesus as king during the millennium. Notice that the "prophetic clock stops" when the Jews crucified Jesus and it starts at the Rapture. The reason the clock had to stop, is because of all the time prophecies were supposed to be fulfilled at the first advent of Christ, but the Jews thwarted God's plan. Notice the clock stops at the 69th week of Daniel 9 which was happily ticking at a constant pace since it began with the decree of Cyrus which was 483 years (69 x 7 years). Then 2000 years pass and the clock suddenly starts ticking down the final 7 years. This is nothing short of incredible, but in fact, this entire concept of God failing to foresee the Jews rejecting Jesus as King is the cornerstone of Rapture and Premillennial theology.

10. False: The church is a temporary after thought while the prophetic clock is stopped. The church is not prophesied in the Old Testament and will be abolished at the second coming. The prophetic clock starts ticking again at the "Rapture" which is the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel. There will be 3 ½ years of peace followed by 3 ½ years of tribulation.

Truth: The church is part of God's eternal purpose and will endure forever into the future: "so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, " (Ephesians 3:10-11) God will be glorified in the church for all future eternity: "to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen. " (Ephesians 3:21) Those who believe the church is a temporary stop gap measure, fail to comprehend that the church is the bride of Christ and that the wedding day is the second coming. "that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. " (Ephesians 5:27) Rapturists teach that the church ends at the second coming, when in fact the church continues forever as the bride of Christ. Those who believe the church was thought up at the last minute when the Jews rejected Jesus as their king fail to realize that our salvation is inside the church, which is the body of Christ and will continue forever. If the church ends at the second coming, then so does the body of Christ. So Rapture and premillennialism is rank heresy invented by John Darby in 1830 AD.

11. False: The Bible tells us when the Rapture/second coming of Christ will occur.

Truth: "The Bible Guarantees it" as a sure thing makes a mockery of Christ and causes people to lose faith in the Bible.

12. False: There is a secret number code in the bible that can be used to predict the second coming by using combinations of 3 ½, 6, 7, 10, 30, 40, 66, 70, 230, 280, 666, 980, 1000, 1200, 1260, 1290, 1335, 2520, 2300, 6000, 7000 etc. These numbers are randomly assigned various time units including minutes, hours, days, weeks, years, millenniums.

Truth: Endless numerology has been used randomly to make endless date predictions which have all failed but sold a lot of books and made a lot of con artists rich.

13. False: Special illumination from God others do not possess

Truth: If any man claims special revelation from God who directly communicates with him, let him show this by performing miracles. Bible prophets always proved it by their power, not their words. "But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I shall find out, not the words of those who are arrogant but their power. For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power. " (1 Corinthians 4:19-20) Until men like Camping perform a miracle, he is a candidate for stoning according the Old Testament law he believes will be restored.

14. False: New Doctrines are being revealed today that were not understood even 20 years ago.

Truth: Continuous revelation: "Early and latter rains", "new light". For example, Harold Camping said, "The Biblical evidence is too overwhelming and specific to be wrong. The scriptural evidence needed to know the exact day could not be known before 1988, the year the 'Church age' ended. The Bible indicates prior to this year that date could not be known." The Jehovah's Witnesses are trained to ignore past false predictions by claiming new light that "gets brighter and brighter". Rather it is "black light" or flickering/contradictory light. Camping uses this "new light" "latter rain" theology to justify his previous prediction of 1994 failing. Incredibly Camping says: "In the nineteen years since "1994?" was written, the biblical evidence for 2011 has greatly solidified. Today there is no longer any question, May 21, 2011 is the day in which Jesus Christ will return.

ENTIRE DOCUMENT: Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD

 

[Chuckt]

the term rapture is not in the bible...it is a concept that becomes popular in the late 1800s

doesnt the bible say...even the angels in heaven do not know when the world will end?

It was translated out of the Latin Vulgate which is where we get the word "rapture" but the word is really harpazo or "caught up" which means the same thing.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up (harpazō) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Strong's G726 - harpazō

1) to seize, carry off by force

2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

3) to snatch out or away

AV — catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1

​

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G726&t=KJV​

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away (harpazō) that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. it by force (harpazō).

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away (harpazō) that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

John 6:15 ¶ When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force (harpazō), to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them (harpazō), and scattereth the sheep.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall (harpaz&#333 never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck (harpazō) them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck (harpazō) [them] out of my Father's hand.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away (harpazō) Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Acts 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take (harpazō) him by force (harpazō) from among them, and to bring [him] into the castle.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up (harpazō) to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught (harpazō) up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up (harpazō) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling (harpazō) [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up (harpazō) unto God, and [to] his throne.