The Rapture

[The Irish Ram]

Nice to see ya Kosh. Just look at it as an opportunity to dispel false doctrine.
I LOVE word!

 

[Chuckt]

the term rapture is not in the bible...it is a concept that becomes popular in the late 1800s

John Nelson Darby, a 19th-century theologian was the originator of the Rapture theory

THE ORIGIN OF THE RAPTURE THEORY

Credit for its origin generally goes to John Nelson Darby, a 19th-century theologian.

Let's define some common terms to help one navigate the technicalities, for in reading about the rapture, you will often encounter the words postmillennialism, amillennialism and premillennialism . First, the root word, Millennium, comes from the Latin for 1,000 years. Religiously, it refers to the first 1,000 years of Christ's reign over the Kingdom of God on earth (Revelation 20:4)

A postmillennialist believes that Christ returns to establish the Kingdom on earth after the 1,000 years; an amillennialist doesn't believe that the Kingdom is coming at all; a premillennialist believes that Christ returns before the Millennium to set up His Kingdom as described in Revelation 20:4.

In the century before Darby, Daniel Whitby pushed the philosophy of postmillennialism in England. "This interpretation maintains that present gospel agencies will root out evils until Christ will have a spiritual reign over the earth, which will continue for 1,000 years. Then the second advent of Christ will initiate judgment and bring to an end the present order" ( Unger's Bible Dictionary, 1988, "Millennium").

Postmillennialism gives life to the idea of "the social gospel" and the belief that the Church can actually bring about the Kingdom by its actions. It has led to many Christian churches involving themselves in politics on the premise that they are virtually obligated to lobby governments in the direction of godliness.

There were also amillennialists in Darby's day. He labored to correct both false teachings. Darby believed, rightly, that Jesus Christ would return to earth to establish and rule over the Kingdom of God. Darby was a premillennialist.

But in his zeal for countering error, he added another—the rapture theory. He believed he understood a new truth, an idea that had not been taught in the history of Christendom. While he was most likely sincere, sincerity alone does not make one right.

"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation" (2 Peter 1:20) New International Version).

How do we know whether God inspired John Darby with new understanding? It actually would not be difficult to verify. Jesus said, "...the Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35), meaning Scripture agrees within itself.

If the rapture were truly a biblical doctrine, it would mesh with all other scriptural references to Christ's coming. But it does not stand up to that test, as we will see.

COMPLETE ARTICLE: The Rapture A Popular but False Doctrine - World News and Prophecy | United Church of God

Other people found the rapture on their own and I've never met a church that believes we can bring the kingdom of God here by our own actions. I know they are out there somewhere but I've never seen one.

That information you are quoting is wrong:

A postmillennialist believes that Christ returns to establish the Kingdom on earth after the 1,000 years

No. We believe that Christ's millenial reign on Earth is 1,000 years. Your information is false. That is why you have to stick to the Bible because your sources don't add up. Your source made a mistake.

 

[koshergrl]

He has no interest in truthful representation. He's a troll whose purpose is to spam the shit out of the religion forum.

 

[pacer]

No. We believe that Christ's millenial reign on Earth is 1,000 years. Your information is false. That is why you have to stick to the Bible because your sources don't add up. Your source made a mistake.

Is that not correct? Does Christ not "establish" his reign after 1,000 years to reign for 1,000 years.

 

[pacer]

In the case of a premillennialist, Christ should have been here and gone.

 

[Chuckt]

No. We believe that Christ's millenial reign on Earth is 1,000 years. Your information is false. That is why you have to stick to the Bible because your sources don't add up. Your source made a mistake.

Is that not correct? Does Christ not "establish" his reign after 1,000 years to reign for 1,000 years.

Get a second source. Your source is confused.

 

[koshergrl]

I'm waiting for him to bring us something from Peter Singer.

 

[pacer]

“Postmillennialism” comes from a term that means, literally, “after the thousand years”. Thus, it is essentially a way of interpreting Revelation 20, which six times mentions a period of a thousand years, during which Satan is bound and believers reign with Christ. Postmillennialists believe that Christ will return after a future golden age of prosperity on the earth, during which time the gospel will have been fruitful in all the world, bringing peace and security to all."

What is Postmillennialism?

Postmillennialism is the belief that Christ will return after the millennium. Thus, the name " post" (after) millennial (1000).

The Thomas Ice Collection

A couple of sources.

 

[daws101]

Is the Rapture a Biblical Doctrine?

By John of AllFaith © 4.16.08 (updated 5.17.11)
Let's discuss this on my Blog!


To make sure we are on the same page with what the Rapture is supposed to be, please begin by watching this 2 minute video by a Rapture beliving ministry:



The Rapture doctrine means one thing and one thing only. It does not refer to people going to Heaven after they die, to people having visions or traveling in visionary states etc. The Rapture theory refers to the belief in the nearly instantaneous translocation of every single "Born Again Christian" on earth to Heaven as shown in this video. It refers to the nearly instantaneous disappearance of millions (if not billions) of human beings around the globe without a trace. It speaks of the "taking away" of every child on earth, of jets falling from the skies as Christian pilots are "taken" (arguably a good reason not to hire Christians hehe); it foretells the worst multi-car pile-ups in history as every vehicle being driven by a Christian is suddenly abandoned and careens out of control, of husbands and wives, parents and their children being separated as the Christians are "taken" in a twinkling of an eye from all over the globe.

This is what we mean by the term Rapture.

The Doctrine of the Rapture of the Church is the popular Nicean Christian belief that at some point in the future HaShem will extract all true "Christians" from the earth, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" leaving everyone else here to suffer under the reign of the coming Antichrist (Rex Mundi).

This idea gained popular support through the teachings of Dr. Clarence Larkin (Dispensational Truths), Rev. Charles Scofield (The Scofield Bible), a plethora of Second and Third Great Awakening Evangelists (see my study The Great Awakenings for more on these religious developments), and more recently from the unbiblical works of fiction by Tim Lahey known as The Left Behind Series in which the Antichrist is depicted as a Transylvanian Dracula-type Liberal do-gooder gone bad! Likewise, Family Radio of Harold Camping has used this teaching to mislead millions. We need to understand the truth of this! Is this a biblical doctrine? Consider the following:
In Summary
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"Just the Facts Please!"
No Biblical Support: • The "Rapture" is a new doctrine, not historically held by any segment of the Church prior to the mid 1800's.
• Proponants can't agree on the question of timing: Pre, Mid or Post Tribulation, so it's obviously not that clear. There are clear statements in the Revelation and elsewhere that contradict all three of the theorized time frames for a Rapture.
If this earth shaking event were truly a biblical prophecy it would be made clear by the holy prophets.
• One reason often given for why the Rapture must occur is that the Holy Spirit (the Ruach of HaShem: the Holy Presence of HaShem) must be removed from the Earth during the reign of the Beast (Rex Mundi/Antichrist). No biblical evidence for this view is ever offered nor can any be shown. Were God's Presence ever withdrawn from the Earth all life would instantly cease to exist since in the Spirit of Adonai "...we live, and move, and have our being..." (Acts 17:28).
Doctrinally this idea is even more problematic because were this accurate no one post Rapture could be "saved" nor have any communion with God (to be directed by Him etc.) and yet the biblical prophets clearly show divine intervention and inspiration throughout the entire final seven year period.
• Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were delivered but passed through the fiery furnace (Daniel 3:19). So too will we pass through the Seven Years or serve God's Will as martyrs.
• Daniel was delivered but he nonetheless went through the Lion's den (Daniel 6:16).
• The House of Judah survived King Nebuchadnezzar's tyrany but they passed though their Babylonian captivity.
• The House of Judah survived the wrath of Haman because Mordecai was inspired to say to Esther: "...who knows whether you haven't come to the kingdom for such a time as this?" (Esther 4:14). They went through the experiences and HaShem protected them. So too will we pass through the Seven Years or serve God's Will as martyrs.
• Nowhere in Scripture does Adonai remove His people in this way. They always pass through the "Red Sea" and continue in His service under His protection and inspiration.
Not Taught by Rebbe Y'shua:

• Rebbe Y'shua (Jesus) does not reference a Rapture in his important Matthew 24 list of signs in response to the question of his talmidim (students) "When will these things be?"
The Rapture would be a major sign for those left behind! Surely Y'shua would have explained what such an event would mean for those "left behind." Multitudes would be seeking to understand the prophecies and their fulfillment. They would be on their faces before HaShem begging for another chance. Would Y'shua leave them with any mention of such an event? According to most Rapture theories those left behind will still be able to find salvation as long they have not taken the Mark of the Beast. Surely Y'shua would have hammered this point home for them! Instead he mute on the subject? Makes no sense.
• Some advocates of this heresy point out that Rebbe Y'shua's Matthew 24 prophecy does reference 'those in the field' being "taken." They assume this is referring to the Rapture. Consider the context however. This warning is clearly speaking of the Jews of Jerusalem at the End of Days who will flee the beleaguered Holy City once Rex Mundi commits the "abomination of desolation spoken of by Prophet Daniel" (see Matthew 24:14 and 24:40, Revelation 12. This is not referring to a Rapture when read in context.
In the same section (Matthew 24:17) we see clearly that such people would not have the option to return to their homes to retrieve their belongings under the conditions supposed in the Rapture teaching. Those who are wise will immediately flee. Those that fail to properly understand the signs will not flee and they will face the wrath of Rex Mundi (Revelation 12.
And yet 'Those in the field,' 'on the roof tops' etc. are encouraged to run into the wilderness relying on nothing by Adonai, rather than returning home for their belongings. Such options would not exist in the Rapture as taught and so the reference can not be to it.
• Rebbe Y'shua does not discuss or even reference a Rapture in his prophetic presentations to John in the Book Revelation.
The imagined Rapture references at Revelation 1:10, 4:1 etc. are to John's spirit being "taken up" in his visions so he could behold what our Cohen Gadol (High Preist and Mediator) had to show him. Emissary Paul also references such experiences when he writes: "... whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: only God knows" (II Corinthians 12:2). These are not physical takings as with the Rapture theory and so can not be compared to such an event. Such statements are descriptive of visionary experiences only.
• Nicene Christians do not honor the Sabbath (as commanded in both the Tanakh and B'rit Hadashah -- the "Old" and New Testament writings) and so the Rebbe's concern on their behalf that this fleeing not take place on the Sabbath has no meaning for modern Christians. Master Y'shua would surely have known the Church would abandon the Sabbath three hundred years after his death and so there would be no reason for adding this. Clearly he is speaking to the Jews of Jerusalem in this verse who will confront the fury of the coming despot and his New World Order.
Not Taught by Rabbi Paul:

• Believers are advised to stand firm against the Son of Perdition (the Antichrist/Rex Mundi). To do so they must be present on the earth during his reign.
• The "Last Trump" (I Corinthians 15:52) is sounded to announce the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth and the beginning of Moshiach's reign (Revelation 11:15). Paul's comment in I Corinthians 15 specifically refers to the time that seventh shofar/trumpet is sounded. The Pre or Mid Tribulation Rapture as conceived would have taken place years before this shofar (ram's horn) is sounded according to the Book of the Revelation. It is sounded when the Jews are ALL gathered back to Jerusalem for the inauguration of the global theocratic Kingdom (Hosea 3:4-5, Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6-9).
Not Taught in the Book of the Revelation:

• Revelations 6:9 makes it clear that during the entire seven year period those martyred by the Antichrist and his New World Order must patiently wait, "until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." This clearly shows that there will be no Rapture to rescue their fellow Believers from martyrdom (unless one interprets the Rapture as referring to the elevation of the martyrs during this period, in which case a different term should be coined because that is not what people mean by the word Rapture).
• The prophetic word about the future of the Church makes it clear there will be no escaping the things that are coming. Throughout the Seven Church Ages (described in Revelation chapters 2 and 3) the Church has moved progressively farther and farther away from the God of Israel until, in the "Laodicean" End Times, the Church will embrace the Antichrist and be "vomitted out." If the Church deserves to be vomited out how and why would God rapture it away to safety and bliss? Will Adonai reward the lukewarm apostate Church for its failures and backsliding? May God forbid the thought!
• Both the Pre-Tribulation (the most commonly held view) and the Mid-Tribulation Rapture versions are directly and repeatedly contradicted by the clear biblical teachings concerning who will be on Earth opposing the Rex Mundi ("Global Potentate") during the final conflict. According to the prophets, the true Believers will be present throughout the Seven Year Tribulation Period that ends the age of the Goyim (Luke 21:24).
• The Pre, Mid and Post-Tribulation Rapture theories are biblically discounted when we consider that despite the Nicolaitan doctrines of people living in Heaven and walking on gold plated clouds, the Kingdom of Adonai will be on the Earth, not in Heaven. Y'shua made this clear when he taught us to pray: Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10).
The Book of the Revelation shows some few survivors of the Tribulation Period but most then alive will not endure to the end. The vast majority of lifeforms on the planet are going to die during the Tribulation period, at least 3/4. Those who die during the Tribulation as martyrs will immediately awaken to find themselves in Heaven before the Throne (Revelation 6:10). These will return to the Earth along with Y'shua and his angels to defeat the Rex Mundi and inaugurate the Theocratic Kingdom. Others will be resurrected during the Kingdom reign through two resurrections of the dead (one to life, the other to destruction.
• John explains that at certain points during the Tribulation Period -- including during the second half (known as the "Great Tribulation") -- Believers will receive various protections from certain of the plagues (compare Revelation 7:3, 9:4 etc). This establishes that they will obviously still be on the earth at those points.
• The foretold (and now present) "Laodicean Church" of the Last Days is depicted as a lukewarm, hypocritical body that has abandoned the teachings of Rebbe Y'shua. These people claim to be Jews but they are not (Revelation 2:9). Our final "Church age" has largely become irrelevant in the world surrendering its authority to Islam, Secular Humanism and general apathy. Eventually it will kneel before Rex Mundi and his high priest the False Prophet as it becomes Babylon the Great (and/or her daughters). Portions of the Church are even now being "vomited out" as is obvious from the various sex, political and money scandals, the lack of Christian opposition to the rise of the Islamic Ummah and the New World Order, the general acceptence of the demonic practice of abortion throughout the so-called Christian world, the lack of biblical study and knowledge among Christians, etc. No, the Laodicean Church of today will certainly not be raptured away for its protection and glory! Rather it will be (is being) ruptured to its Pagan core in order that a pure Bride may be brought forth for Y'shua HaMoshiach. The Great Gentile Multitude and the 144,000 Jews who will stand with Moshiach during the final seven years are already being gathered and prepared (Revelation chapter 7). These people are not depending on religious hierarchies and ourdated creeds. Their hope is in the Echad Elohiym (the One God) alone.
Not Supported by God's Historic Dealings With His People:

• Adonai never granted this type of protection to His Elect even during the Exodus, the horrors of 70 C.E. or Masada, the Russian Pograms, the Nazi-wrought Shoah/Holocaust etc. Adonai does at times protect His people for His glory and purposes, but nowhere in Scripture does He remove them from the scene. They always remain as a testimony of His glory and faithfulness. There is no biblical evidence nor historic precedents that HaShem will do so for the lukewarm Nicene Christians nor for those comparatively few who are standing faithfully.

Would it be a glorious relief to believe we are going to be spirited away in a Rapture from the things to come? Absolutely! Is it going to happen? Absolutely not.


Having done everything to stand... Stand!

Is the Rapture a Biblical Teaching? No. Here's why

 

[The Irish Ram]

the term rapture is not in the bible...it is a concept that becomes popular in the late 1800s

doesnt the bible say...even the angels in heaven do not know when the world will end?

It was translated out of the Latin Vulgate which is where we get the word "rapture" but the word is really harpazo or "caught up" which means the same thing.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up (harpazō) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Strong's G726 - harpazō

1) to seize, carry off by force

2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

3) to snatch out or away

AV — catch up 4, take by force 3, catch away 2, pluck 2, catch 1, pull 1

​

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G726&t=KJV​

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away (harpazō) that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. it by force (harpazō).

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away (harpazō) that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

John 6:15 ¶ When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force (harpazō), to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

John 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them (harpazō), and scattereth the sheep.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall (harpaz&#333 never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck (harpazō) them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck (harpazō) [them] out of my Father's hand.

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away (harpazō) Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Acts 23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take (harpazō) him by force (harpazō) from among them, and to bring [him] into the castle.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up (harpazō) to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught (harpazō) up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up (harpazō) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling (harpazō) [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up (harpazō) unto God, and [to] his throne.

And if you prefer ancient Greek it's "ec" or "eccles", to summon, or call out. That's the what.
When is, when we see these signS. (To numerous to post, so here):
Acts 17:11 Bible Study: The End of the Age

Who is, those that have accepted the gift of salvation offered to them by Christ.
Where is, worldwide.
Why is, because we are not subject to God's wrath.
And it will take 11/100th of a second to accomplish, or as the Bible calculates it, in a twinkling of an eye.
Not only is it mentioned, it's a promise from a loving Father to His children to keep us safe.

 

[The Irish Ram]

No. We believe that Christ's millenial reign on Earth is 1,000 years. Your information is false. That is why you have to stick to the Bible because your sources don't add up. Your source made a mistake.

Is that not correct? Does Christ not "establish" his reign after 1,000 years to reign for 1,000 years.

No.
3 and 1/2 years after Israel signs a peace treaty and rebuilds the Temple, the anti-Christ will declare himself God, and will sit on the throne in the Holy of Holies, and defile the Temple. The ensuing war would devastate the earth entirely but for Christ's return. Those who died in Christ and those raptured, return with Him at that point to rule and reign as co-heirs.

At that time Christ sets up His reign and rules with a rod for 1,000 years, The reason for the rod is that there will be humans that live through the tribulation, and still embrace sin.
Satan, being spirit and eternal, is chained for that 1,000 year period. He is let out of his chains for a brief period, and will make one last appearance to captain those who kept to their sinning, before Christ removes him (the White Throne Judgement), and those who chose to follow him, to a lake of fire for eternity. And for the 1st time since Eden there will be peace on earth, and good will among men.

 

[pacer]

“Postmillennialism” comes from a term that means, literally, “after the thousand years”. Thus, it is essentially a way of interpreting Revelation 20, which six times mentions a period of a thousand years, during which Satan is bound and believers reign with Christ. Postmillennialists believe that Christ will return after a future golden age of prosperity on the earth, during which time the gospel will have been fruitful in all the world, bringing peace and security to all."

What is Postmillennialism?

Postmillennialism is the belief that Christ will return after the millennium. Thus, the name " post" (after) millennial (1000).

The Thomas Ice Collection

A couple of sources.

Are you suggesting the above information is inaccurate?

 

[Toro]

I am willing to sell Rapture insurance. $500 a year to ensure that your pets are taken care of when you ascend into heaven.

PM me.

 

[The Irish Ram]

“Postmillennialism” comes from a term that means, literally, “after the thousand years”. Thus, it is essentially a way of interpreting Revelation 20, which six times mentions a period of a thousand years, during which Satan is bound and believers reign with Christ. Postmillennialists believe that Christ will return after a future golden age of prosperity on the earth, during which time the gospel will have been fruitful in all the world, bringing peace and security to all."

What is Postmillennialism?

Postmillennialism is the belief that Christ will return after the millennium. Thus, the name " post" (after) millennial (1000).

The Thomas Ice Collection

A couple of sources.

The problem with the post-millennial theory is it ignores this very important verse and the whole reason for the rapture:

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus...

 

[pacer]

In Christian end-times theology, (eschatology), postmillennialism is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after (Latin post-) the "Millennium", a Golden Age in which Christian ethics prosper.

Postmillennialism - Ask.com Encyclopedia

 

[The Irish Ram]

“Postmillennialism” comes from a term that means, literally, “after the thousand years”. Thus, it is essentially a way of interpreting Revelation 20, which six times mentions a period of a thousand years, during which Satan is bound and believers reign with Christ. Postmillennialists believe that Christ will return after a future golden age of prosperity on the earth, during which time the gospel will have been fruitful in all the world, bringing peace and security to all."

What is Postmillennialism?

Postmillennialism is the belief that Christ will return after the millennium. Thus, the name " post" (after) millennial (1000).

The Thomas Ice Collection

A couple of sources.

Are you suggesting the above information is inaccurate?

I'm not suggesting it, I'm declaring it.

 

[pacer]

I'm not suggesting it, I'm declaring it.

Thanx, The Irish Ram, but I'll defer to my sources.

 

[Chuckt]

In Christian end-times theology, (eschatology), postmillennialism is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after (Latin post-) the "Millennium", a Golden Age in which Christian ethics prosper.

Postmillennialism - Ask.com Encyclopedia

So, you are a post toastie?

Why Believers won’t go through the Tribulation

By Chuckt (C)


My pastors always give the illustration that the Church is the bride of Christ and as the husband is told to love their wives and God is not going to beat up His wife before the marriage:



Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;



It seems inconsistent for Christ not to love the church, not to give Himself for it and not to love His bride by making the Church go through the Tribulation. That is not the example of Scripture.



Lot and Noah are types of the rapture because, “.. the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;” (Romans 1:18) which is not the Church and didn’t include Lot or Noah. “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.” Gen 6:8 We found grace in the eyes of the Lord because “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:”-Ephesians 2:8-9. Therefore I have to conclude that we have the same grace as Noah received and we should escape the tribulation flood.



Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;



Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.



I put myself in Revelation 5:9 and will sing “thou was slain, and has redeemed US” because the Church is in Heaven and the only one who can sing that song is “US”.



Luke 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw [this], they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?



Luke 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.



Luke 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save [them]. And they went to another village.



I don’t know why people believe that Jesus is going to send down fire on believers in the Tribulation period but I have to say, ”Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.”



Then you have to explain why men will go through the Tribulation but why ordinary tragedies are not judgments of God:



Luke 13:1 ¶ There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.



Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?



Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.



Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?



Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.



Isn't the first appearance of Jesus for saving men and the second appearance for judging?

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we are going to go through the tribulation then God would seem to be punishing us. I think that if you believe in the assurance of the believer then you can't believe in going through the tribulation because that means that God hasn't cleansed you from all unrighteousness and that it (the work of the cross) isn't finished (John 19:30) because you are still paying for sins during the tribulation and that would contradict Ephesians 2:8-9 to mean that it isn't by grace through faith but it is by works that give you assurance.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

If you are going through the tribulation as a believer then Ephesians 2:3 can't say that you "were by nature the children of wrath" but should say that you "are the children of wrath" (not in the Bible) because you are the object of wrath during the tribulation.



I think that people suffering over the years for their faith is a result of man or Satan.

I believe that those who didn't believe us but may later see us leave in the rapture will believe because of that event. I think that those people and those of the false church will be persecuted. The tribulation is an event that God brings on to a Christ rejecting world and there is no reasons for God to punish Christians because (1) Christ paid for their sins and (2) the object is to bring wrath against those who don't want to believe or took the mark of the beast:

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


Revelation 16:1 ¶ And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Revelation 16:2 ¶ And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and [upon] them which worshipped his image.

A reason is:

Revelation 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

The objects of God’s wrath are unbelievers whom are probably very difficult for man to evangelize.

Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Revelation 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, [every stone] about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

The above verses use examples of men who are clearly not believers. They are blasphemers and they are hard to deal with individuals.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

These are people who suppress the truth because they hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent (admitting no change of mind / unrepentant) heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Hardness and impenitent (unrepentant) are the reasons why they treasure up unto themselves for the day of wrath.

So you have to choose whether we will go through wrath because you can't believe that we will go through wrath and being saved from wrath (Romans 5:9). Either you are justified by His blood or you aren't.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Who is the "them" in 1 Thessalonians 2:16?

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

It isn't "us" in 1 Thessalonians 5:9.



A long reason for me to write about is that the Church gets raptured and the Holy Spirit is then given to the Nation of Israel. The prophecies in the Old Testament and New Testament have to do with Israel and if there were Christians here, you would have to explain why the court of the Gentiles is left out of the construction of the New Temple.

 

[Chuckt]

Questions for Post Tribulationists

By Chuckt (C) 6-20-2008



Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,



Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.



1 Thess. 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.



What point would there be for Jesus to rapture us if He is coming with His saints? And the rapture indicates Jesus came for his saints:



1 Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:



Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.



If you take the mark, it is eternal damnation and if you don't take the mark, you are killed. So if they kill everybody then how can they say there are sheep and goats to separate at the end?



Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.



Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:



If the 144,000 are sealed and accounted for then what purpose is there in separating the sheep from the goats?



Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.



Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.



How does the Bride of Christ come with Christ from heaven if the Bride of Christ is supposed to be on the earth?



Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.



Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.



Revelation 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

[Chuckt]

Another reason why God won’t send Christians through the Tribulation

By Chuckt (C) 9-8-2008



Matthew 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?



Matthew 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?



Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?



Those who believe God will send Christians through the Tribulation have a problem answering Jesus in Matthew 7:9-11.



Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.



Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.



Will your heavenly Father send you through the Tribulation so that you can be given hunger? Or will you be raptured? Please ask your Post-Tribulationist friends this question.



Luke 12:24 Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?



Isn’t this all the more reason to pray, “Give us this day our daily bread.”? (Matthew 6:11)



Even God fed Elijah:



1 Kings17:3 Get thee hence, and turn thee eastward, and hide thyself by the brook Cherith, that [is] before Jordan.



1 Kings 17:4 And it shall be, [that] thou shalt drink of the brook; and I have commanded the ravens to feed thee there.



And God fed the children of Israel:



Exodus 16:15 And when the children of Israel saw [it], they said one to another, It [is] manna: for they wist not what it [was]. And Moses said unto them, This [is] the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.

And Jesus had compassion on the multitude:



Matthew 15:32 Then Jesus called his disciples [unto him], and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest they faint in the way.



The question is:



Will those who ask for food, will God give them hunger? Please remember Matthew 7:11 in your answer.