The Siege of Crimea has Begun

[alexa]

The USA is envolved because of Russia - not because of the Democratic Party of the USA. Russia is the biggest country and the biggest nuclear power of the world. This war has lots of consequences for the western world - and not only for the western world.

Nonetheless people are talking about the fact that the Democratic Party the one who we would expect to look for Diplomacy rather than war had not one person demanding this. They all wanted war. Then when they put in a letter saying they wanted a move towards diplomacy as well, they rejected they thought this way immediately. This shows the Democratic Party has changed and people argue it and its supporters have become Imperialistic. That is because they see the US led by the Democratic Party wanting to destroy Russia. In that I think you are right that that is what this war is about. However by that it is an imperialistic war, wanting to take over Russia and so end it being another world power as well as having the massive resources Russian has in addition to oil and now to stop the dollar as reserve currency being removed. Democrats and their supporters are hence supporting this and have become different people to how they were before when we would have expected them to fight against this.

As for Russia coming in with no provocation. I know that is repeated every minute in the hope people will believe it but it is not true. Yes, they came in but there was massive provocation.

 

[para bellum]

As for Russia coming in with no provocation. I know that is repeated every minute in the hope people will believe it but it is not true. Yes, they came in but there was massive provocation.

Yeah, did you see what Ukraine was wearing?

She was just asking for it...

 

[toomuchtime_]

I did not argue or present my opinion. I just stated facts.

Rational bazis that we are fighting a proxy war, other than tactical information about russia and the weapons used to sink Russian ships

Again, you stated no facts at all. You stated your opinion that the US is seeking to establish a base in Crimea, and there is no rational basis for such an opinion. You stated your opinion that the US started the war in Ukraine and there is no rational basis for such an opinion. You continue to state your opinion that the US is in a war with Russia and there is no rational basis for such an opinion. You continue to argue that the US started/provoked the war by respecting Ukraine's sovereignty, which makes sense only if you believe Russia has the right to determine what the Ukrainians should do. This makes you a champion of Russian imperialism.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Nonetheless people are talking about the fact that the Democratic Party the one who we would expect to look for Diplomacy rather than war had not one person demanding this. They all wanted war. Then when they put in a letter saying they wanted a move towards diplomacy as well, they rejected they thought this way immediately. This shows the Democratic Party has changed and people argue it and its supporters have become Imperialistic. That is because they see the US led by the Democratic Party wanting to destroy Russia. In that I think you are right that that is what this war is about. However by that it is an imperialistic war, wanting to take over Russia and so end it being another world power as well as having the massive resources Russian has in addition to oil and now to stop the dollar as reserve currency being removed. Democrats and their supporters are hence supporting this and have become different people to how they were before when we would have expected them to fight against this.

As for Russia coming in with no provocation. I know that is repeated every minute in the hope people will believe it but it is not true. Yes, they came in but there was massive provocation.

Your posts continue to be among the most bizarre on the board. What was the "massive provocation" Russia had for invading Ukraine and killing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian? Refusing to take orders from Moscow?

 

[alexa]

Yeah, did you see what Ukraine was wearing?

She was just asking for it...

It has been explained over and over.
I have explained this several times before and have no intention of wasting more time on it. The below link covers it. What can be added would be the increase in fighting and people fighting in the East against Separatists. Many people put that as the tease Russia was unable to ignore, The rest of how the US has acted towards Russia since the end of the USSR is explained in the link below.

Was Ukraine a threat to Russia before start of Russian military operation?

And Russia has never really been part of Europe. They're Europe's neighbor more than a member of Europe. Oh by the way. The USA is also a part of Europe. You are a child of the European enlightenment. And Russia is a Christian child of East-Rome. And now Europe, Russia and the USA need a...

www.usmessageboard.com

 

[toomuchtime_]

It has been explained over and over.
I have explained this several times before and have no intention of wasting more time on it. The below link covers it. What can be added would be the increase in fighting and people fighting in the East against Separatists. Many people put that as the tease Russia was unable to ignore, The rest of how the US has acted towards Russia since the end of the USSR is explained in the link below.

Was Ukraine a threat to Russia before start of Russian military operation?

And Russia has never really been part of Europe. They're Europe's neighbor more than a member of Europe. Oh by the way. The USA is also a part of Europe. You are a child of the European enlightenment. And Russia is a Christian child of East-Rome. And now Europe, Russia and the USA need a...

www.usmessageboard.com

So what you cite as "massive provocation" for Russia to invade Ukraine and kill hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians is the proxy war Russia launched against Ukraine in 2014 and the debunked claim that NATO promised not allow the former Soviet states to join NATO.

"The interviewer asked why Gorbachev did not “insist that the promises made to you [Gorbachev]—particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s promise that NATO would not expand into the East—be legally encoded?” Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”

Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says "No" | Brookings

Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises were...

www.brookings.edu

In other places you claim to be a liberal and yet you are clearly an ardent champion of Russian imperialism.

 

[alexa]

So what you cite as "massive provocation" for Russia to invade Ukraine and kill hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians is the proxy war Russia launched against Ukraine in 2014 and the debunked claim that NATO promised not allow the former Soviet states to join NATO.

"The interviewer asked why Gorbachev did not “insist that the promises made to you [Gorbachev]—particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s promise that NATO would not expand into the East—be legally encoded?” Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”

Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says "No" | Brookings

Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises were...

www.brookings.edu

In other places you claim to be a liberal and yet you are clearly an ardent champion of Russian imperialism.

If Gorbachev said that then he was clearly suffering from memory problems before he died. Only a day or two ago I was listening to Jeffry Sachs say he was in the room with Gorbachev when this was discussed and there was no question that the Russians would not have agreed to the reunification of Germany if they had not believed this was true. To the American's however, their word had no meaning. Sachs has also spoken about the way the US rather than encouraging Russia to get on a good economic footing did nothing to help them. He was an economist advising the Warsaw Pact countries. He asked for some massive loans for Poland which the US agreed to by return. He asked for the same for Russia and everything was refused. He gave up working as an economist working to help Russia because he believed it was impossible to help them given the US attitude.

What I said is provocation can be read at the link with the addition of the build up of fighting on the east teasing Russia to come in.. Nothing has been debunked. What is there is the truth.

I have never 'claimed to be a liberal'. This is just another of your made up things. My interest is the truth. In order to find that I read and listen to a lot. Only when you have done that are you in a position to have any idea of what is going on. You for instance are completely deluded in believing that it is only the Right who believes there was provocation. Many good scholars on the left also do. Jeffry Sachs himself most definitely seems to have moved into that situation given his experience and study. You should have a look at The New Economics which he supports. People who believe in Democracy are also keenly watching what is going on right now.

 

[para bellum]

It has been explained over and over.

Yes, you have repeated the same Russian talking points endlessly.

It still boils down to "Russia was provoked", i.e. it's the victim's fault.

Russia is the rapist, Ukraine is the raped. You side with the rapist. Ukraine "had it coming".

 

[alexa]

Yes, you have repeated the same Russian talking points endlessly.

It still boils down to "Russia was provoked", i.e. it's the victim's fault.

Russia is the rapist, Ukraine is the raped. You side with the rapist. Ukraine "had it coming".

Totally untrue. You do not defeat an argument with emotional lies and your belief that I am the only person who has said what my post says is itself untrue.

You and too much time appear to be doing what you always do. Give quick emotional lies in order to get a thread which is nothing more than emotional abuse and the things which have been said which get you started are ignored. You are clearly only wanting propaganda. I will be answer no more of your or too much time posts concerning this. I have explained my position fully.

 

[para bellum]

Totally untrue. You do not defeat an argument with emotional lies and your belief that I am the only person who has said what my post says is itself untrue.

Your own words.

"As for Russia coming in with no provocation. I know that is repeated every minute in the hope people will believe it but it is not true. Yes, they came in but there was massive provocation."

 

[alexa]

Yes, you have repeated the same Russian talking points endlessly.

It still boils down to "Russia was provoked", i.e. it's the victim's fault.

Russia is the rapist, Ukraine is the raped. You side with the rapist. Ukraine "had it coming".

I refer you to post 89

 

[para bellum]

I refer you to post 89

I did not say you were the only one here endlessly repeating Russian talking points. You are one of many.

Your ad homs are irrelevant. Your message is consistent. The blame is on Ukraine/US.

Russia was forced/tricked/provoked into invading Ukraine and bombing the shit out of the country, and waging a war of genocide and ethnic cleansing on the civilian population.

That's your message, everyone hears it loud and clear.

 

[elektra]

Again, you stated no facts at all. You stated your opinion that the US is seeking to establish a base in Crimea,

I posted what we did. Call it opinion all you want but it is what we did.

You are arguing your ideology, nothing more.

U.S.-Ukraine Charter on Strategic Partnership - United States Department of State

The following is the text of the U.S.-Ukraine Charter on Strategic Partnership signed by U.S. Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken and Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba in Washington, D.C. on November 10, 2021. Begin Text: Preamble The United States and Ukraine: Reaffirm the importance of...

www.state.gov

 

[toomuchtime_]

If Gorbachev said that then he was clearly suffering from memory problems before he died. Only a day or two ago I was listening to Jeffry Sachs say he was in the room with Gorbachev when this was discussed and there was no question that the Russians would not have agreed to the reunification of Germany if they had not believed this was true. To the American's however, their word had no meaning. Sachs has also spoken about the way the US rather than encouraging Russia to get on a good economic footing did nothing to help them. He was an economist advising the Warsaw Pact countries. He asked for some massive loans for Poland which the US agreed to by return. He asked for the same for Russia and everything was refused. He gave up working as an economist working to help Russia because he believed it was impossible to help them given the US attitude.

What I said is provocation can be read at the link with the addition of the build up of fighting on the east teasing Russia to come in.. Nothing has been debunked. What is there is the truth.

I have never 'claimed to be a liberal'. This is just another of your made up things. My interest is the truth. In order to find that I read and listen to a lot. Only when you have done that are you in a position to have any idea of what is going on. You for instance are completely deluded in believing that it is only the Right who believes there was provocation. Many good scholars on the left also do. Jeffry Sachs himself most definitely seems to have moved into that situation given his experience and study. You should have a look at The New Economics which he supports. People who believe in Democracy are also keenly watching what is going on right now.

That may be Sachs understanding of what he saw at some meeting, but there is absolutely no evidence Gorbachev was not competent to recall what he discussed at these meetings and there is absolutely no documentation that the freedom of the former Soviet satellite states Russia captured at the end of WWII were not free to decide for themselves whether or not to join NATO or the EU was discussed.

Since US, and a little later, NATO has been consistent since the Yalta conference that the eastern European states would be free to independently govern themselves as sovereign states and it is bizarre to think that such dramatic change in policy could have been agreed upon with absolutely not a single page of documentation. It is equally bizarre to think that Gorbachev, who had decided the USSR was no longer a viable entity, would have changed his mind about dissolving it if NATO didn't ban these states from joining with getting anything in writing.

In fact, during tthe1990's, the US had excellent relations with the Russian government and spent billions trying to help Russia move from being an authoritarian communist state to a democracy with a market-based economy. This was what the Russian government said it wanted to do and the US spent billions trying to help Russia do it. To be clear, in the 1990's, Russia was close to being a failed state; the streets of Moscow were ruled by criminal gangs and the police were only occasionally paid, as were the military and virtually all agencies of government were riddled with corruption. Russia couldn't afford to do proper maintenance on its nuclear arsenal and there began to be radiation leaks.

The US provided billions to patch these problems the Russian government couldn't handle to try to save the fledgling democracy rather than to harm it, and US took the extraordinary action of strengthening the Russian state by persuading Ukraine to hand its nuclear arsenal, the third largest in the world at that time, over to Russia.

The US and Russian governments had excellent relations right up until Putin and the other Russian ultra-nationalists came to power.

 

[elektra]

Again, you stated no facts at all. You stated your opinion that the US is seeking to establish a base in Crimea, and there is no rational basis for such an opinion. You stated your opinion that the US started the war in Ukraine and there is no rational basis for such an opinion. You continue to state your opinion that the US is in a war with Russia and there is no rational basis for such an opinion. You continue to argue that the US started/provoked the war by respecting Ukraine's sovereignty, which makes sense only if you believe Russia has the right to determine what the Ukrainians should do. This makes you a champion of Russian imperialism.

 

[elektra]

Again, you stated no facts at all. You stated your opinion that the US is seeking to establish a base in Crimea, and there is no rational basis for such an opinion. You stated your opinion that the US started the war in Ukraine and there is no rational basis for such an opinion. You continue to state your opinion that the US is in a war with Russia and there is no rational basis for such an opinion. You continue to argue that the US started/provoked the war by respecting Ukraine's sovereignty, which makes sense only if you believe Russia has the right to determine what the Ukrainians should do. This makes you a champion of Russian imperialism.

You have me confused with someone else or you think you can dictate what I think.

Either way you are wrong.

U.S. Plan to Modernize Naval Base at Ukraine - Naval Post- Naval News and Information

Black Sea is transformed to a chessboard at last years that U.S. and Russia make moves. As a consequence, we encounter news about Black Sea that surprise us.

navalpost.com

As tensions rise between Russia and Ukraine on the Black Sea, the US is upgrading several Ukrainian naval bases to give American and NATO warships the ability to dock just miles from Russia-controlled Crimea.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I posted what we did. Call it opinion all you want but it is what we did.

You are arguing your ideology, nothing more.

U.S.-Ukraine Charter on Strategic Partnership - United States Department of State

The following is the text of the U.S.-Ukraine Charter on Strategic Partnership signed by U.S. Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken and Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba in Washington, D.C. on November 10, 2021. Begin Text: Preamble The United States and Ukraine: Reaffirm the importance of...

www.state.gov

You posted no facts at all.

 

[elektra]

Again, you stated no facts at all. You stated your opinion that the US is seeking to establish a base in Crimea, and there is no rational basis for such an opinion. You stated your opinion that the US started the war in Ukraine and there is no rational basis for such an opinion. You continue to state your opinion that the US is in a war with Russia and there is no rational basis for such an opinion. You continue to argue that the US started/provoked the war by respecting Ukraine's sovereignty, which makes sense only if you believe Russia has the right to determine what the Ukrainians should do. This makes you a champion of Russian imperialism.

Now I get it, this the Democratic party Afghanistan strategy.

Ship billions of dollars of the most technically advanced weapons into the Ukraine, then say, we are sorry we dont belong here. Cut off our support, retreat, leaving the weapons behind thus giving them to Russia.

Brilliant plan, thanks for being so astute and informative

 

[elektra]

You posted no facts at all.

These are facts, you should have someone explain what a fact, is.

U.S.-Ukraine Charter on Strategic Partnership - United States Department of State

The following is the text of the U.S.-Ukraine Charter on Strategic Partnership signed by U.S. Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken and Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba in Washington, D.C. on November 10, 2021. Begin Text: Preamble The United States and Ukraine: Reaffirm the importance of...

www.state.gov

U.S. Plan to Modernize Naval Base at Ukraine - Naval Post- Naval News and Information

Black Sea is transformed to a chessboard at last years that U.S. and Russia make moves. As a consequence, we encounter news about Black Sea that surprise us.

navalpost.com

 

[Flash]

It has been explained over and over.
I have explained this several times before and have no intention of wasting more time on it. The below link covers it. What can be added would be the increase in fighting and people fighting in the East against Separatists. Many people put that as the tease Russia was unable to ignore, The rest of how the US has acted towards Russia since the end of the USSR is explained in the link below.

Was Ukraine a threat to Russia before start of Russian military operation?

And Russia has never really been part of Europe. They're Europe's neighbor more than a member of Europe. Oh by the way. The USA is also a part of Europe. You are a child of the European enlightenment. And Russia is a Christian child of East-Rome. And now Europe, Russia and the USA need a...

www.usmessageboard.com

There is a big hole in your augment.

NATO is not an offense alliance. It is a defensive one.

Putin may be paranoid as hell about Ukraine joining NATO but it is not warranted.

Not warranted enough to invade and kill unknown thousands of civilians and destroy the infrastructure of the most productive country in East Europe.