The three main goals of libertarianism

[OohPooPahDoo]

1) You're obviously not a business owner

The right has made it clear that business interests are the ONLY voices they are going to listen to.

 

[kaz]

I'm pragmatic enough to recognize that people will get screwed by someone - either corporations or the government. Of the two, I'd say the government screws more gently. And why do you think that liberals and democrats are more heinous in that regard than conservatives and republicans. Look at what happened during GWB's era. Yeah, I know, GWB wasn't a conservative. Yada yada.

1) You're obviously not a business owner

2) The government screws with guns and force. You can screw a company by not dealing with them. Government removes their competition.

That's gentle? If you're not doing anything with your life to know how ridiculous what you are saying is, you're not doing much with your life.

Ok, let's take the oil companies for example. They produce a commodity that's sold on the global market. Who do I boycott to affect BP?

Well, since you can't tell other people what to do, you have two choices. First, you try to persuade them. Second, you can withhold your business and if enough other people feel like you do, it'll matter. I boycott Citgo for that reason, but I don't expect the world to do my bidding. I'm happy because they don't get my money.

Now if you're a liberal politician, you take their bribes disguised as campaign donations while you condemn them and then don't really do anything about it because you're in their pocket. Wow, they're holding their feet to the fire...

I've had my own business and the government was the least of my worries.

Obviously you didn't, at least not in a meaningful way or you would never say that. Even my liberal sister in law who now runs a veterinary practice won't vote for a Democrat.

 

[RKMBrown]

At least a corporation sells things I might want to buy.

Like Government Motors

 

[JoeNormal]

your premise that all corporations are inherently evil is just idiotic and ignorant.

For about the fifth time in this thread, I didn't say that all corporations are inherently evil. Granted I might have painted with a bit of a broad brush for simplicity's sake but please tell me you aren't really that much of a black-and-white thinker.

Yet you insist that government screws more gently than corporations. I take that to mean that you screwed people over when you ran your company and now you can't screw people over as much and are merely taking advantage of others through soft tyranny of the majority?

Well, I guess I should pat you on the head for a nice attempt at reading between the lines but after all that, you missed it by a mile.

I had a sole proprietorship in a technological field that was more cutting edge than my comfort level would allow. It was no more polluting than an average home and my customers apparently didn't feel screwed. They were sad that I'd called it quits.

Why don't you tell me how you've been wildly fucked by the government and I promise to listen with an open mind. (You too Kaz.)

 

[kaz]

1) You're obviously not a business owner

The right has made it clear that business interests are the ONLY voices they are going to listen to.

Businesses are people. You've made clear that people who have business interests are the ONLY people who don't have voices.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Businesses are people.

Businesses are owned by people. Big difference.

 

[Redfish]

your premise that all corporations are inherently evil is just idiotic and ignorant.

For about the fifth time in this thread, I didn't say that all corporations are inherently evil. Granted I might have painted with a bit of a broad brush for simplicity's sake but please tell me you aren't really that much of a black-and-white thinker.

You have said and implied it many times on this and other threads. Are you now admitting that you were just spouting left wing talking points?

what % of corporations do you believe are inherently evil? and can you name a few of them?

 

[kaz]

Businesses are people.

Businesses are owned by people. Big difference.

How is that different? The business in that sense is a piece of paper. In reality, it's the people who comprise the business and earn a living.

Do you have a job? Are you paid? Why, are you greedy?

 

[Redfish]

Businesses are people.

Businesses are owned by people. Big difference.

come on opie, you can't be that dumb. you get all tangled up with the legal definition of a corporation as a legal "person" and make the stupid conclusion that others think that corporations are people.

as I have tried to teach you, corporations are considered legal persons in order to protect the employees and shareholders from personal liability for the acts of the corporation AND to be able to hold the corporation liable for those same acts.

Its the right thing to do. Your ignorant spin just verifies your ignorance.

 

[JoeNormal]

your premise that all corporations are inherently evil is just idiotic and ignorant.

For about the fifth time in this thread, I didn't say that all corporations are inherently evil. Granted I might have painted with a bit of a broad brush for simplicity's sake but please tell me you aren't really that much of a black-and-white thinker.

You have said and implied it many times on this and other threads. Are you now admitting that you were just spouting left wing talking points?

what % of corporations do you believe are inherently evil? and can you name a few of them?

I've already mentioned the oil companies and mega-banks. Halliburton, Monsanto, Blackwater, Honeywell, Walmart are a few others that pop off the top of my head. Percentage? Hell, I don't know.

 

[Redfish]

Businesses are people.

Businesses are owned by people. Big difference.

How is that different? The business in that sense is a piece of paper. In reality, it's the people who comprise the business and earn a living.

Do you have a job? Are you paid? Why, are you greedy?

oohdumpedmahpants is either very ignorant or a left wing troll. maybe both.

 

[Redfish]

For about the fifth time in this thread, I didn't say that all corporations are inherently evil. Granted I might have painted with a bit of a broad brush for simplicity's sake but please tell me you aren't really that much of a black-and-white thinker.

You have said and implied it many times on this and other threads. Are you now admitting that you were just spouting left wing talking points?

what % of corporations do you believe are inherently evil? and can you name a few of them?

I've already mentioned the oil companies and mega-banks. Halliburton, Monsanto, Blackwater, Honeywell, Walmart are a few others that pop off the top of my head. Percentage? Hell, I don't know.

So those that you listed were founded to screw their employees, the public in general, and to foul the environment? Is that what you really believe?

Were you dropped on your head as a baby?

 

[kaz]

Businesses are owned by people. Big difference.

How is that different? The business in that sense is a piece of paper. In reality, it's the people who comprise the business and earn a living.

Do you have a job? Are you paid? Why, are you greedy?

oohdumpedmahpants is either very ignorant or a left wing troll. maybe both.

He just doesn't want to work for money because that would be greedy, so he lives on welfare.

 

[RKMBrown]

For about the fifth time in this thread, I didn't say that all corporations are inherently evil. Granted I might have painted with a bit of a broad brush for simplicity's sake but please tell me you aren't really that much of a black-and-white thinker.

Yet you insist that government screws more gently than corporations. I take that to mean that you screwed people over when you ran your company and now you can't screw people over as much and are merely taking advantage of others through soft tyranny of the majority?

Well, I guess I should pat you on the head for a nice attempt at reading between the lines but after all that, you missed it by a mile.

I had a sole proprietorship in a technological field that was more cutting edge than my comfort level would allow. It was no more polluting than an average home and my customers apparently didn't feel screwed. They were sad that I'd called it quits.

Why don't you tell me how you've been wildly fucked by the government and I promise to listen with an open mind.

I had a few years where my income was significantly higher than all my other income years combined. Windfall income if you will. The government took millions of my income as windfall taxes that I'll probably not earn the rest of my life. I was forced to pay more for my right to live here by % of income than probably 99% of all other Americans. You probably call that fair and / or progressive. I call it being butt raped by a soft tyranny of the majority. I was fully vested in SS when I was 35, I'm fifty now and have maxed out my SS payments every year since then. Unless I live to be older than Methuselah there is no way in heaven or earth that I can possibly get my SS deposits back.

When I got my home loans I had to show income. When the housing bubble popped, the reason was the people that the government said did not have to show income. Then the Government took my income to bail out the banks that made the loans, and to pay the rent for the deadbeats.

I've got a brother in law that went for two years on unemployment. He got a job the day his unemployment ran out. My government takes my income to give to people to stay home for years on end. Nutz.

How many examples do you want?

 

[JoeNormal]

You have said and implied it many times on this and other threads. Are you now admitting that you were just spouting left wing talking points?

what % of corporations do you believe are inherently evil? and can you name a few of them?

I've already mentioned the oil companies and mega-banks. Halliburton, Monsanto, Blackwater, Honeywell, Walmart are a few others that pop off the top of my head. Percentage? Hell, I don't know.

So those that you listed were founded to screw their employees, the public in general, and to foul the environment? Is that what you really believe?

Were you dropped on your head as a baby?

Founded to screw their employees? Don't be a fucking retard. They were probably founded upon some product that either captured a significant amount of the market or created a paradigm shift of some kind. The screwing didn't come about until much later when the corporate culture had been established and the level of greed hit critical mass.

 

[Redfish]

I've already mentioned the oil companies and mega-banks. Halliburton, Monsanto, Blackwater, Honeywell, Walmart are a few others that pop off the top of my head. Percentage? Hell, I don't know.

So those that you listed were founded to screw their employees, the public in general, and to foul the environment? Is that what you really believe?

Were you dropped on your head as a baby?

Founded to screw their employees? Don't be a fucking retard. They were probably founded upon some product that either captured a significant amount of the market or created a paradigm shift of some kind. The screwing didn't come about until much later when the corporate culture had been established and the level of greed hit critical mass.

So let me see if I get it. A corporation is founded to make money for its shareholders, then at some point its managers decide its time to start screwing the employees, the customers, and to start destroying the environment. And that paradigm shift would have been made to improve the bottom line????????

So, forcing your employees to quit, your customers to go elsewhere, and to run up EPA fines is good corporate practice?????


Where do you get this shit?

 

[JoeNormal]

Yet you insist that government screws more gently than corporations. I take that to mean that you screwed people over when you ran your company and now you can't screw people over as much and are merely taking advantage of others through soft tyranny of the majority?

Well, I guess I should pat you on the head for a nice attempt at reading between the lines but after all that, you missed it by a mile.

I had a sole proprietorship in a technological field that was more cutting edge than my comfort level would allow. It was no more polluting than an average home and my customers apparently didn't feel screwed. They were sad that I'd called it quits.

Why don't you tell me how you've been wildly fucked by the government and I promise to listen with an open mind.

I had a few years where my income was significantly higher than all my other income years combined. Windfall income if you will. The government took millions of my income as windfall taxes that I'll probably not earn the rest of my life. I was forced to pay more for my right to live here by % of income than probably 99% of all other Americans. You probably call that fair and / or progressive. I call it being butt raped by a soft tyranny of the majority. I was fully vested in SS when I was 35, I'm fifty now and have maxed out my SS payments every year since then. Unless I live to be older than Methuselah there is no way in heaven or earth that I can possibly get my SS deposits back.

When I got my home loans I had to show income. When the housing bubble popped, the reason was the people that the government said did not have to show income. Then the Government took my income to bail out the banks that made the loans, and to pay the rent for the deadbeats.

I've got a brother in law that went for two years on unemployment. He got a job the day his unemployment ran out. My government takes my income to give to people to stay home for years on end. Nutz.

How many examples do you want?

First off, congratulations on your success. However, I hope you realize that many extremely talented and capable people never approach the point where they have millions to lose. From that standpoint, I can't help but seeing your dismay as hindsight in which you believe your success was virtually assured.

As for your brother-in-law, I do remember a time when I resented people like him very intensely. When I was going to college, I was stressed to the max, broke, constantly sick and working my ass off at some very difficult course material. The stories of people who couldn't even manage to work the shit jobs that I had during that time made my blood boil yet thinking back, I didn't personally know anyone who fell in that category. I still don't. I'm sure it happens but I'll bet it's a lot more rare than Fox News would have you believe.

 

[RKMBrown]

First off, congratulations on your success. However, I hope you realize that many extremely talented and capable people never approach the point where they have millions to lose.

Thx. Yes, I realize my success is not universal. Life isn't fair.

From that standpoint, I can't help but seeing your dismay as hindsight in which you believe your success was virtually assured.

Virtually assured... nah. Though I had a ton of confidence, though I consider myself one of the top programmers in the nation, success requires many attributes and is most certainly not assured.

As for your brother-in-law, I do remember a time when I resented people like him very intensely. When I was going to college, I was stressed to the max, broke, constantly sick and working my ass off at some very difficult course material. The stories of people who couldn't even manage to work the shit jobs that I had during that time made my blood boil yet thinking back, I didn't personally know anyone who fell in that category. I still don't. I'm sure it happens but I'll bet it's a lot more rare than Fox News would have you believe.

I didn't say I resented him. I resent the system that pays for folks like him to sit on their butts for two years. I also have a sister in law that has been on unemployment for 18months and is not looking forward to having to get a job at the end of the summer. 40million people on EBT cards now. It would seem if you promote welfare people will line up for it. Give someone a two year vacation at half pay.. yeah he'll probably take it.

 

[JoeNormal]

I didn't say I resented him. I resent the system that pays for folks like him to sit on their butts for two years. I also have a sister in law that has been on unemployment for 18months and is not looking forward to having to get a job at the end of the summer. 40million people on EBT cards now. It would seem if you promote welfare people will line up for it. Give someone a two year vacation at half pay.. yeah he'll probably take it.

See, I think in a technological society in which the neccessities of life might not even be produced in the areas where people live, there needs to be some sort of a safety net. The problem becomes people taking unfair advantage of it.

Out of curiosity, do these people actually make enough on unemployment to have any kind of quality of life? Most people I know who've been on it for any time at all want nothing more than to get back to work.

 

[RKMBrown]

I didn't say I resented him. I resent the system that pays for folks like him to sit on their butts for two years. I also have a sister in law that has been on unemployment for 18months and is not looking forward to having to get a job at the end of the summer. 40million people on EBT cards now. It would seem if you promote welfare people will line up for it. Give someone a two year vacation at half pay.. yeah he'll probably take it.

See, I think in a technological society in which the neccessities of life might not even be produced in the areas where people live, there needs to be some sort of a safety net. The problem becomes people taking unfair advantage of it.

Out of curiosity, do these people actually make enough on unemployment to have any kind of quality of life? Most people I know who've been on it for any time at all want nothing more than to get back to work.

If the work is remote they can telecommute or move. My grandfather had to take electrician contracting jobs where the work was. The work you want for the pay you want is rarely in your back yard.

To me the best safety net is a local one that is provided by the folks that are accountable to the money spent. To me the best way to get people to go back to work is to make sure they have no choice but to go back to work.

Fairness... these folks believe living on the government dime is fair cause everyone does it. Afterall that's why we pay taxes when we do work is the attitude.

>>> Out of curiosity, do these people actually make enough on unemployment to have any kind of quality of life?

Define quality of life. Both have families, both share in the expenses. The brother in law owns a home, they got by on the unemployment check and his wife's paycheck. The sister in law works for free at her husband's auto shop. They live in an ok.. apartment.