The Trinity

[Shogun]

ironically, those of the hebrew faith feel the same way about christians and their "NEW" covenant all about THEIR accepted "messiah"...

 

[AllieBaba]

There is no single entity. They are 3 separate things. And again the Bible is VERY clear on this.

No, it's not. THe Word was God and the Word was with God.

Explain how that's clear that Jesus isn't God.

 

[Eightball]

ironically, those of the hebrew faith feel the same way about christians and their "NEW" covenant all about THEIR accepted "messiah"...

They can "feel" all they want about Jesus Christ. He/Jesus met the same resistance to His own race/culture as today. The bible does say, that Israel will have an "awakening" in the end times, and there will be a massive movement of acceptance of Jesus Christ. Just read both O.T. and N.T. end times happenings. It's very clear.

The Jew"s or Hebrew's very own O.T. prophesied a coming Messiah.......that would be born in Bethlehem, would die via crucifixion, etc.... All prophesied hundreds of years before it happened.

By the way, the O.T. prophesied that the Messiah would die via crucifixion, hundreds of years before crucifixion was even used as punishment/execution.

Now, to say that Mormonism has similar "roots" to biblical Christianity, as Judaism to Christianity, is absurd, theologically.

CRI, or the Christian Research Institute, classifies the LDS church/religion as a "cult", and not a sect of Christianity.

There are many cults that claim to have present day Messiah's, Prophets, etc...None of them meet the criteria of both the O.T. and N.T. scriptures.
*******
Jesus's coming was accurately(100%) revealed throughout the O.T.. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Psalms(David's authorship), Malachi........and on and on.

Jesus Himself even directly quoted O.T. scripture to testify/validate that He was who He was, the Jew's Messiah, the world's Savior.
********

 

[Mr. President]

On the subject of trinity the easiest way i have found to explain it is I'm a soldier, I'm a teacher, I'm a driver I am all three of these things yet i am one. When we talk about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, we have to look at the fulfillment of each part of the trinity.

The role of the Father is creator Alpha and Omega Beginning and end The Word.

Now Genesis chapter 6 verse 3 and I take all text from the KJV
And the Lord said; "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh.”

Here is where we see the separation between a holy creator and his creations. Now that humans have been enveloped in sin there is a need for a medium someone who is pure and holy enough intercede on behalf of human beings unto the Lord.
Now atonement had to be made through sacrifice until Jesus came and made the ultimate sacrifice.

In Jesus we see the creator in Flesh form. Why? because there was need for an intercessor who lived a holy virtuous life as man and not creator so the creator had to become creation in order to ensure salvation. However the fullness of God could not become subject to man.

Hebrews 7 veres 23-28 Also there were many priests because they were prevented by death from continuing. But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens: who does not need daily as those High Priests, to offer up sacrifices first for his own sins then for the peoples for this he did once for all when he offered up himself. For the law appoints as high priest men who have weakness, but the word of the oath which came after the law appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

John chapter 8 verse 24 “If God were your father you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God, nor have I come of myself, but He sent Me.

John Chapter 8 verse 19 Then they said unto him “where is your father?” Jesus answered “You know neither me nor my Father, if you would have known Me, you would have known my Father also”

These two verses from the book of John show that Jesus and God are indeed linked through trinity because to know Jesus is to know the Father.

Now that the link has been established as God and Jesus are two yet one the Holy spirit must be entered into the trinity.

This is done in Galatians Chapter 4 verse 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His son into your hearts, crying out Abba, Father. The same spirit promised in John Chapter 7 verses 37 - 39

 

[AllieBaba]

You can conjecture all you want about what you think Jesus' intentions were, but the scripture leaves no doubt.

If the scriptures have been intact for thousands of years without being corrupted........as attested-too by the nearly 2,000 year old Isaiah scroll that was found in the Dead Sea caves, I'd say you, Richard are dealing with an omnipotent God, who is protecting the accuracy of his inspired scripture through the ages.

I couldn't rep you, but you said it very well.

 

[Eightball]

On the subject of trinity the easiest way i have found to explain it is I'm a soldier, I'm a teacher, I'm a driver I am all three of these things yet i am one. When we talk about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, we have to look at the fulfillment of each part of the trinity.

The role of the Father is creator Alpha and Omega Beginning and end The Word.

Now Genesis chapter 6 verse 3 and I take all text from the KJV
And the Lord said; "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh.”

Here is where we see the separation between a holy creator and his creations. Now that humans have been enveloped in sin there is a need for a medium someone who is pure and holy enough intercede on behalf of human beings unto the Lord.
Now atonement had to be made through sacrifice until Jesus came and made the ultimate sacrifice.

In Jesus we see the creator in Flesh form. Why? because there was need for an intercessor who lived a holy virtuous life as man and not creator so the creator had to become creation in order to ensure salvation. However the fullness of God could not become subject to man.

Hebrews 7 veres 23-28 Also there were many priests because they were prevented by death from continuing. But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them. For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens: who does not need daily as those High Priests, to offer up sacrifices first for his own sins then for the peoples for this he did once for all when he offered up himself. For the law appoints as high priest men who have weakness, but the word of the oath which came after the law appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

John chapter 8 verse 24 “If God were your father you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God, nor have I come of myself, but He sent Me.

John Chapter 8 verse 19 Then they said unto him “where is your father?” Jesus answered “You know neither me nor my Father, if you would have known Me, you would have known my Father also”

These two verses from the book of John show that Jesus and God are indeed linked through trinity because to know Jesus is to know the Father.

Now that the link has been established as God and Jesus are two yet one the Holy spirit must be entered into the trinity.

This is done in Galatians Chapter 4 verse 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His son into your hearts, crying out Abba, Father. The same spirit promised in John Chapter 7 verses 37 - 39

Excellent, concise, and accurate explanation!

 

[KGB]

Ok, if Jesus and the Holy Spirit are really just God, explain John 14:24 and John 14:26.

Why exactly would Jesus keep reminding people that his words were not HIS but those of his FATHER, God. I mean if he were really just God anyway.

Why would Jesus talk of God sending the Holy Spirit anywhere if it was really just God anyway?

Through out the Bible Jesus is referred to as the Son of God and he is clear he is NOT God. And the Holy Spirit is referred to as a helper of God not as God.

there are mysteries beyond our comprehension....given that, how could the Biblical writers ever understand how to properly state God's nature.....

 

[Anguille]

there are mysteries beyond our comprehension....given that, how could the Biblical writers ever understand how to properly state God's nature.....

Mysteries or gobbledygook?
Do you religious freaks ever concern yourselves with pertinent issues?

 

[Mr. President]

Mysteries or gobbledygook?
Do you religious freaks ever concern yourselves with pertinent issues?

Oh you mean like going to the religious section of a message board and asking people why they are talking about religion. Your wisdom is reverberating around the board.

 

[AllieBaba]

Mysteries or gobbledygook?
Do you religious freaks ever concern yourselves with pertinent issues?

You mean like how to behave responsibly towards your neighbors and family, how to best treat children, how to better yourself, how to handle your finances and how to approach finances and death....oh, and how to acknowledge that as individuals we are not the most important thing on the face of the earth?

I know, none of those are pertinent.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Well, there are several places in the Bible where Yeshua (Jesus) talks to people and tells them what He is doing on earth.

First, remember that Yeshua was a Jew. He was also considered to be a great tzadik (holy man) by those around Him. Anyone remember the story where Yeshua was leaving the city on His way to see the man who was possessed by demons? On His way out of the city, He was spotted by a fellow Jew, who recognized Him. He told the man "do not tell anyone who I am", and then went on to see the possessed man. After casting the demons out of the man and into the swine, He told the man "Go forth, and tell everyone what God has done for you through Me". The first reason that Yeshua came to earth was to spread the message about God to the nations of the world (everyone that wasn't Jewish). This meant that the nations of the world (who were still practicing idolatry) had no idea whom God was, and Yeshua's job was to show them.

Now......in reference to if Jesus is God or not, let's look at the following statement made by the Man Himself. When He was asked by His disciples when He was going to come back to earth, He said that he didn't know, that the only person that did was God Himself. "Nobody knows the hour or the day except the Father".

Now, there's also another interesting little thing that people should kinda look at also. One of the things that Jesus said was "the Kingdom of God is within". If you understand Jewish theology, you would also understand that a person's soul is a small piece of God Himself that He carved out from under His Throne, and placed into our bodies. If a person understands that their "conscience" or "soul" is actually a piece of God, they would also understand that anyone can contact God WITHOUT going through a preacher or other designated official. You can contact Him yourself through prayer (talking to God), and meditation (listening to Him).

Why was another reason that God sent Yeshua down to earth? Well, at the time, the priests of the Temple had started to become corrupt (reference the money changers and the High Priest), because they were basically skimming from the offerings of the Temple, so, God sent Jesus to earth to correct this. Unfortunately, Jesus was unable to get close to the High Priest, because they wouldn't let Him see them, as they were concerned that Jesus would blow the whistle on them and the people would revolt. Rome got into the picture (they were invited by the Hebrew upper class), and they provided the muscle to take Him in, and the Jews told the Romans where He was at. One of the things that Jesus HAD to do was appear in front of the High Priest. Unfortunately, the only way to do that was to be turned in. Jesus trusted Judas the most, and gave him the job of turning Him in. Why did He trust Judas so much? Judas was the banker of the group, as well as His best friend, and kept tabs on the money. Jesus told Judas what he had to do, and Judas did that. Oh yeah.....the only reason that he was paid 30 pieces of silver, is that at that time, there was no established police force, so, anyone that turned someone over to the authorities for a crime was paid as soon as they brought the person in, and the payment for those acting as police, was 30 pieces of silver.

So, back to the original question......is Jesus God? No.

However.....with the way that the Bible has been mangled and bastardized by Rome (Niecene council anyone?), one of the things that the church higher ups wanted to do, was to modify the stories (which is what they did at the Niecene council, as they took out books, as well as pared down the stories in it). Over the years, there have been MANY different translations of the Bible. Unfortunately, most English translations were translated from Greek, which in turn was translated from its original language, which was Hebrew, which means that it was a translation of a translation, which explains why there are so many differing versions. And....most of the people that translated things from Hebrew, well.....they only had a loose grasp of Hebrew, and some words in Hebrew don't translate very well into other languages. Matter of fact, if you're interested in some of this, check out God's Learning Channel on cable, and tune into it on Sunday around 6:30 pm CST. The program is called Hidden in the Hebrew with host Uri Harrell. I highly recommend it. Another good reference is on the 'net, and it's called the Universal Torah Network - Teaching and Relating Torah Principles, Views and Understanding To The World. Check out the programs by Sam Peak. Some of the better ones (IMHO) are Mysteries of the Creation and The Way of God. Once you get through them (the programs are only 1/2 hour long), then start delving into Rabbi Greenbaum and Rabbi Richman's lessons. They'll teach you a LOT.

 

[Sunni Man]

Good post ABS.

Anyone who really looks at the Bible objectively, will quickly see that Jesus Never claimed Divinity. I was a Christian for many years and believed the Trinity nonsense.

But when I started studying the Bible from an objective point of veiw. It became very apparent the Trinity was a man made invention.

 

[ABikerSailor]

BTW, now that I've managed to post at least 15 times, here's the url to the Universal Torah Network:

Universal Torah Network - Teaching and Relating Torah Principles, Views and Understanding To The World

Check it out.....it's good stuff!

 

[Anguille]

You mean like how to behave responsibly towards your neighbors and family, how to best treat children, how to better yourself, how to handle your finances and how to approach finances and death....oh, and how to acknowledge that as individuals we are not the most important thing on the face of the earth?

I know, none of those are pertinent.

And what do any of those things have to do with the meaning of the Trinity?
Are you one of those snobs who think that people who study the Bible have some kind of monopoly on altruistic and socially responsible behavior?

 

[Anguille]

Oh you mean like going to the religious section of a message board and asking people why they are talking about religion. Your wisdom is reverberating around the board.

Thanks. Someone had to bring this thread back to the real world.

 

[Anguille]

Good post ABS.

Anyone who really looks at the Bible objectively, will quickly see that Jesus Never claimed Divinity. I was a Christian for many years and believed the Trinity nonsense.

But when I started studying the Bible from an objective point of veiw. It became very apparent the Trinity was a man made invention.

I guess I have no say in the matter, not being a Christian, but the idea that a human being could change form into a supernatural being has always struck me as one of of the more ridiculous concepts of the Christian faith.

Just sayin'

 

[Eightball]

I guess I have no say in the matter, not being a Christian, but the idea that a human being could change form into a supernatural being has always struck me as one of of the more ridiculous concepts of the Christian faith.

Just sayin'

Ever wondered how an ugly old caterpillar makes a cocoon, and they comes out later a beautiful butterfly or moth? I know......just evolution.

Your conclusions about Jesus and Him not being God go fly in the face John's gospel. The Word was God, the Word became flesh.....etc... These are No-brainer verses. John was about as close to Jesus as any man on earth had ever been.

But of course if you think hocus pokus is all Christianity is about then, of course you can also pick and choose what scripture you want to believe, as you have already revealed to the board.

It's funny and sad to me at the same time to see people take the bible and only accept that which meets their comfort zones, or their finite mind's ability to break down to the molecular level. That which they don't understand or is too "deep" they summarily write-it-off.

I once was there myself as you. Took a 2x4 across my ego to bring me to my senses.

 

[Anguille]

Ever wondered how an ugly old caterpillar makes a cocoon, and they comes out later a beautiful butterfly or moth? I know......just evolution.

Your conclusions about Jesus and Him not being God go fly in the face John's gospel. The Word was God, the Word became flesh.....etc... These are No-brainer verses. John was about as close to Jesus as any man on earth had ever been.

But of course if you think hocus pokus is all Christianity is about then, of course you can also pick and choose what scripture you want to believe, as you have already revealed to the board.

It's funny and sad to me at the same time to see people take the bible and only accept that which meets their comfort zones, or their finite mind's ability to break down to the molecular level. That which they don't understand or is too "deep" they summarily write-it-off.

I once was there myself as you. Took a 2x4 across my ego to bring me to my senses.

Eighball, your posts are very well written and informative and thought provoking and I enjoy reading them despite my sassy attitude.

Sorry to hear about the 2x4 that gave you those paranoid tendencies.

 

[Eightball]

Eighball, your posts are very well written and informative and thought provoking and I enjoy reading them despite my sassy attitude.

Sorry to hear about the 2x4 that gave you those paranoid tendencies.

You must understand that the divine 2x4 removed the paranoid tendencies.......

Thank you for the "Kudo's" too, and also appreciate, and respect folks who are transparent about them selves and their imperfections.......Referring to the "Sassy" comment.

 

[AllieBaba]

And what do any of those things have to do with the meaning of the Trinity?
Are you one of those snobs who think that people who study the Bible have some kind of monopoly on altruistic and socially responsible behavior?

Nope, just talking to the sneering attitude that people who study the bible should be doing something more pertinent. Maybe you should re-read my original post, and the quote it was responding to.