The Truth about Mormons

[Eightball]

I thought perhaps I should add a bit more with scriptural support since the copy-and-paste provides some ease.

Moses 5: 4-7. 16-25
4 And Adam and Eve, his wife, called upon the name of the Lord, and they heard the voice of the Lord from the way toward the Garden of Eden, speaking unto them, and they saw him not; for they were shut out from his presence.
5 And he gave unto them commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks, for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord.
6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.
7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.
. . .
16 And Adam and Eve, his wife, ceased not to call upon God. And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bare Cain, and said: I have gotten a man from the Lord; wherefore he may not reject his words. But behold, Cain hearkened not, saying: Who is the Lord that I should know him?
17 And she again conceived and bare his brother Abel. And Abel hearkened unto the voice of the Lord. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
18 And Cain loved Satan more than God. And Satan commanded him, saying: Make an offering unto the Lord.
19 And in process of time it came to pass that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
20 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock, and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel, and to his offering;
21 But unto Cain, and to his offering, he had not respect. Now Satan knew this, and it pleased him. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
22 And the Lord said unto Cain: Why art thou wroth? Why is thy countenance fallen?
23 If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted. And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan desireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt rule over him;
24 For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.
25 And it shall be said in time to come — That these abominations were had from Cain; for he rejected the greater counsel which was had from God; and this is a cursing which I will put upon thee, except thou repent.

Gen. 4: 13-15
13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

We read from above about Cain's corruption of the priesthood ordinance symbolizing the Great Sacrifice. They were commanded to offer the firstlings of their flocks, which offering was a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father. But Cain made his own variation of the ordinance - "Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord."

Cain could not be trusted regarding priesthood matters. "The Lord had respect unto Abel, and to his offering; But unto Cain, and to his offering, he had not respect."

Cain disregarded the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father. As a priest, who was called to perform the ordinance in which a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father was offered, Cain failed miserably. Cain disregarded the sacred things of the priesthood; and therefore the priesthood authority was withdrawn from Cain.

Cain was called Perdition. This was apparently the kind of spirit that he was before he was born. The scripture says "for thou wast also before the world."

Cain became the father of people who perpetuated the "abominations' that "were had from Cain". The people who were born in the lineage of Cain were born in the lineage of Cain because they were very much of the same spirit as Cain's before they were born into the world. Cain's lineage perpetuated the abominations and the curse was continued; they bore the mark of the curse and they were denied the priesthood authority because they cannot be trusted.

A similar disregard of the sacred things of the priesthood was perpetuated by Ham after the flood; and the mark of the curse which is the "blackness" was brought on Canaan, which again ordained a lineage into which rebellious spirits were born - because these spirits must have been rebellious like Cain before they came into the world.

Gen. 9: 18-27
18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.
19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.
20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness.
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Moses 7: 8
8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

The land was actually cursed with so much melanin-producing heat and a blackness came upon the children of Canaan that they were particularly despised among all people.

As far as I know the mark of the curse and its meaning as pertains the descendants of Canaan was never lifted by any sacred pronouncement until the 1978 declaration of a revelation to Pres. Spencer W. Kimball of the Mormon Church.


The mark of the curse was also placed on the Lamanites who disregarded the sacred things of the priesthood. The Lamanites sought to destroy those who honored the priesthood.

Alma 3: 7 (7-16)
7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.

And then the mark of the curse was erased when everyone became very righteous after the visit of the resurrected Christ.

4 Nephi 1: 17, 20
17 There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.

However, after a while, again there came a great divide among the people; the people grouped themselves into Nephites and Lamanites and they had terrible wars that practically annihilated the Nephites and only "Lamanites" were left alive. These again became a dark, filthy and loathsome people.

Mormon 5: 15
15 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.

But there was no more mention of any curse put upon them as pertaining to the priesthood restrictions - except that there is mention that they became idolatrous unbelievers, which means they had no worthy priesthood holders.


The latter-day leaders actually acknowledged the scriptural stipulations regarding the curse associated with the skin of blackness, especially as eprtains the descendants of Canaan (which I think was understood to be the African people). The blacks were 'generally' not ordained the priesthood authority and could not therefore administer the priesthood ordinances.

Like the Canaanite woman who implored the Lord, they were allowed certain blessings - like that in the ordinances for the forgiveness of sins. But they were not allowed the ordinances for exaltation since these entailed that they be entrusted the priesthood authority to administer the priesthood ordinances. This is of course until the 1978 declaration.

I was already a convert to the Mormon Church many years before the 1978 declaration regarding the priesthood for the black people. It was not a surprise or an extraordinarily difficult issue for us. We were satisfied by the scriptural explanations and personal spiritual confirmations regarding the 1978 declaration.

The Lord must have deemed it prudent for the Church to not have black priesthood holders during the time when blacks were generally slaves and when the black culture was pretty much un-enticing. This ended of course when the black people gained enough social respectability and also the honor before the Lord (circa 1978).

In sum, I think the terms "racist/racism", "racial discrimination" and "racial prejudice" should be understood and used correctly.

. . .

As for the science thing, I actually like the science ideas mixed with the religion (e.g., among my faves is "kinematic relativity" as reconciled with LDS ideas ) -

The religion of the Latter-day Saints is not hostile to any truth, nor to scientific search for truth. "That which is demonstrated, we accept with joy," said the First Presidency in their Christmas greeting to the Saints, "but vain philosophy, human theory and mere speculations of men we do not accept, nor do we adopt anything contrary to divine revelation or to good common sense, but everything that tends to right conduct, that harmonizes with sound morality and increases faith in Deity, finds favor with us, no matter where it may be found." ["Words in Season from the First Presidency," Deseret Evening News, 17 Dec. 1910, 3.]

I do not see how the idea of the evolution of man from the apes "tends to right conduct,.. harmonizes with sound morality and increases faith in Deity."
. . .

Sadly, most of your references for the black skin curse our from Mormon books, and very little from the bible. What you do quote from the O.T. does not support the black skin curse in any way.

There is one human priesthood, and it is the priesthood of believers or born-again Christians...............There is one ultimate Priest, and that is Jesus Christ.

The Melchizodek was one Priest, in whom Abraham gave worship, and tithes from battles etc.. It is strongly believed that the Melchizodek of the O.T. was the "pre-incarnate" Christ Jesus. As Paul states in the N.T. that this Melchizodek had now past lineage; and rightly so if He indeed is Christ Jesus, the incarnation of God Almighty.

You will not win over converts if you continue to use references such as the very unaccepted book of "Moses" or "BOM" verses.

Within the bible itself there is no evidence of a black skin curse upon Cain or his progeny. In fact God goes on to say that he will guard or protect Cain, even after he commited the murder of his brother Abel.

J.S. Jr. came up with all kinds of crazy, hair-brained ideas, and because he was venerated by his band of followers, it was accepted as gospel.

J.S. Jr. in no way had the credentials in his life to be considered a prophet of God. He lived a life in N.Y. that typified everything that would be called nowadays, a "con artist"...........He and his father were both into conning folks with treasure hunting schemes.

I would put Joseph Smith Jr. in the same category and Bob Tilton; a false teacher to the "n" degree.

His followers have had to excuse and make up all kinds of reasons for all the incongruities of his statements of the past, as well as the later prophet/presidents.

To the outside world looking at the Mormon church with unbiased eyes of observation, the incongruities are too obvious, but to those who are in the LDS cult, it all makes sense.

To biblically based Christains who are filled and abiding in the Holy Spirit, the Mormon church reeks of apostasy, and anti-biblical teaching.

Yes, you LDS folks definitely get spiritual direction for your doctrine, but you overlook the bold fact that the spiritual world is made up of myriads of fallen angels now called "demons" and a fallen leader named "Lucifter/Satan/The Devil", whom Jesus saw fall to earth as He stated in the N.T. gospel.

Satan comes costumed/disguised as a lamb, but is a ravenous wolf. Every time those nicely dressed young men in their white shirts ties, and dark slacks come to my door, my heart is so saddened. I dialogue with them and pray in my heart during these visits that God will drop the scales from their eyes as happened to Paul who pursued the early followers/Christians of Jesus Christ.

The bible doesn't teach that there is a progression of gods, and that good Mormon men can attain godhood. This is all the very anti-Christian foot prints of a cult.

The bible says that there is but "one name" under heaven and earth that men may be saved, and that is Jesus Christ.

Jesus Himself even taught that there was a "Hell" for both Satan and His demonic host, and also those who die in their sins, not placing their faith in Christ and His human-soul redeeming work on the cross.

Your church has castrated God Almighty, by claiming that a new, and corrected revelation needed to come in 1830, as the bible was not accurate in total because of man's corruption.

That whole premise or belief, completely negates God Almighty's great attribute of being "OMNIPOTENT"...........which in plain terms means that God didn't allow his important message of salvation/redemption of this fallen Adamic race to become warped, or pieces-missing, or scribed incorrectly through the last few thousand years.

The Dead Sea scrolls testify to this accuracy, as a nearly complete Isaiah scroll, nearly 2,000 years old was found, and when compared to our present day Isaiah in the Holy bible is not off at all!

That alone dis-proves the LDS premise that the bible is not accurate.

Also your churchs' statement that the bible is "ok" where it agrees with your latter day prophet agreements, and is not "ok" where it disagrees is apalling!!!!! In other words, the BOM, Journnal of Discourses, Pearl of Great Price, all trump the bible...........Yes the bible that was inspired by the "OMNIPOTENT" God, The "I AM", "El Shaddai.....
******
Just because there are millions of followers of your doctrine/church, this does not put God's seal of approval upon it. Your church lays out a broad, easy to digest doctrine, and typifies what Jesus called the "broad" easy road that leads to destruction.

Your church members claim that they were unmercilessly persecuted.........Hum bug!!! Just read Hebrews of the N.T. and you'll find out what real, vivid, tortuous persecution for believing/following Jesus Christ entails. Can't remember when Mormons were sawed in two, burned at the stake, etc.... for their faith. Yes, they were run out of town, and rightly so, as they brought a false gospel, to towns that had strong Christian, biblical populace.

J.S. Jr. crossed the line, and violated common sane law, when he attempted to destroy that illinoise town news printing press. He didn't want anti-Mormon printed messages being distributed throughout the region, took the law in his own hands.

In those days, the local newspaper was the lifeblood of a community. You destroy their press, and you did a big wrong. It wasn't that much less severe than horse stealing.

Anyway, we've heard the yada yada yada of Smith Jr. being a martyr for dieing while in jail shooting it out with the towns people who confronted him. Compare his alleged martyrdom to the many saints of the bible, such as Steven, Paul, Peter, etc.... and it is a laughable joke, if it wasn't so sad.

Jesus went like the Passover Lamb to His death. Paul also did not attempt to fight his way from the Roman headsman's axe, nor did Peter fight back when he requested to be crucified upside down, as he did not want to emmulate the way his Lord and Saviour died. Total humility, and humbleness. Peter was rebuked in the Garden for taking up his sword to protect Jesus.

Jesus washed the feet of His disciples..........He was teaching them a very important thing. You will be servants with servant's hearts.

That is what the Holy Spirit places in the true Christians heart. A heart of humility, humbleness, and an undieing love for God. A love that willing to take abuse without sending back abuse. A heart that willing to give up a warm blanket and be cold so that another can be warm.
*******

 

[Truthspeaker]

This response of yours seems vaguely familiar.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I copied this from the book since I couldn't find the entire story online:

The God Wakea

Once in the days long-vanished, with three great ships which had sailed from the Sunset Lands, came white-robed Wakea- the Fair God who healed the injured, raised the dead, and walked on water. He came to an outlying island of the Tahitian group where two tribes were fighting bitterly.
Now however, the Plynesians are all one people, anciently calling themselves the Maori, from New Zealand to Easter Island off the South American coastline. They were the Vikings of the sunrise, rowing their long-boats over the trackless ocean, guiding themselves by the stars of the heavens, and speaking one language from Hawaii southward. They used the same plants, kept the same animals and sang the same songs of the ancients. One of these was of the God Wakea.
To an island where men were fighting for the possession of the good land came three ships with giant sails like enormous birds with wings uplifted, glowing goldenly in the dawn-light. Suddenly frozen to immobility were the warriors as the ships moved around a jutting headland.
“What mannor of monsters are these with the great wings?”said one
“Perhaps they have come to devour the people.” Said another
Forgotten was the heat of the battle. Friend and foe stood facing seaward, weapons clutched in paralyzed fingers, staring in wide-eyed wonder. The ships oarsmen, whose paddles looked like a hundred centipede legs touching the water, rested now from their task of moving the giant monsters forward.
The Islanders saw something white moving toward them. Apperently it had come from the great birds, and it glided easily over the water with the rhythmical ease of a man walking.
As the spot of white came closer, they saw in amazement that this was a Fair God, man-like in form, but unlike their people. Soon they could see him clearly, the gold of the dawn-light shining behind and around him, making a halo of his long curling hair and beard. They saw the foam-like swish of his garments. As he came up on the wet sand, the warriors stared in fright at his garments; they were dry. Now they knew that a god stood among them, for none but gods can walk on water.
From his garments, so foam-white, they looked to his pale face and then into his eyes. They were strange eyes, grey-green as the depths of the water, and like it, ever changing. Now those eyes flashed with anger as he stared about him and looked upon the injured.
A god had come from the sea to walk among them and his forst look was that of anger! The warriors fell down as one man and began an old chant anciently employed to a god for forgiveness. When they dared again raise up their own eyes, they saw him going among the injured and dying who arose from their pain to find themselves well of body as soon as his hand or his garments had touched them.
Thus on this never to be forgotten day came the beloved Wakea to live for a while among the people.
When the villagers arrived with presents, creeping on their knees toward him, he signaled the ships. Small boats now left the great birds and brought other strangers. These men, though something like him in features, and like him bearded, were different in two ways from the god Wakea. Most plain to see was that their garments were not white but colored. But there was something beside this material difference: it was the way these friends looked upon their leader. In their eyes one could see their reverence. In their speech one could feel their love.
Friend and foe among the Polynesians now set about to entertain the strangers. Putting forth their choicest dishes, making welcome with song and dance. They invited the strangers to partake of the great feast. They had planned an entire night of merrymaking, but alas, as the sun began to paint the western sky with the colors of the orchids, hanging in profusion in the forest, they could see that the strangers were preparing to leave them.
The sadness they felt at this discovery was suddenly reversed when they saw the strangers bidding tearful farewells to the god Wakea. Scarcely had the people dreamed of this good fortune, for now it was becoming very obvious that the god Wakea was planning no journey, but would remain among them.
Respectfully at a short distance stood the people, while Wakea comforted the tearful strangers. They saw him point to the direction of the sunrise, and wondered among themselves what he might be saying in his strange language.
Then, after many further embraces, they watched the strangers enter the small boats and row back to the great bird ships. As Wakea stood there on the sand watching sadly, the chief stepped up quietly and pointed to a high point which looked over the jutting headland around which the strangers were now passing. Wakea nodded quickly, followed the chief and some of the people to the sun-painted high point. There they together watched the three ships move into the sunset, fading at last into the sea of beauty. Only then did they return to the village, and the great ships were never more seen by the tribesmen.
Very quickly Wakea learned Polynesian. The people were amazed at the speed of his learning. As the long days passed, he began to teach the tribesmen. He told them of the One god who ruled the heavens. Who spoke through the volcanoes and who breathed on the ocean. To him, war was not of his making, for his law was love one another. For Wakea they gave up war and the sacrifice of children which had kept down their populations so they would not overeat the islands
Then the men carried him with them, taking Wakea from island to island so each one would meet the strange fair god whose hands were miracles of healing. Many then were the songs of Wakea and many the legends, which down the long vistas of time have been forgotten. Yet his name has never been forgotten.
Wakea had one strange custom. Every morning before the dawn he would rise and pray toward the dawn star on some high point facing seaward. When they asked him why he did this he said that even so would his friends be praying in that far off distant land across the ocean.
The people remembered, thought of that day when he had come to them; of his friends who had wept when they were leaving; and how he had pointed for them towards the sunrise heavens.
Finally the fair god knew well all of the islands and there was not one where he had not landed, feasted with and taught the people. It was then that he looked more often toward the direction of the dawning, and asked questions about the lands of the dawn star. The people were not entirely unacquainted with the continent lying eastward. Did they not have the yam to eat, and call it by it’s ancient South American name? Yet they were loathe to lose the healer, this strange god who answered to the name they had given him: Wakea, Fair God of the Ocean.
As long as they could they tried to dissuade his growing desire to travel eastward. Yet they loved him too much to deny his desire, and so preparations were made for the long journey to be made on the boats of the migrations.
Through their tears they watched him take his seat in the long boat while one child called out in a voice broken by sobbing”
“Are we never to see you Wakea?”
In his melodious voice the fair god made answer:
“One day you will see me returning, even as I came, through the light of the dawning, if you remember to keep my commandments and always love one another.”
The conoes of many rowers carried much food and water. Through wind and storm they stayed together, keeping each other in sight in the day time, and at night by alternate chanting.
Thus from the islands and into the sunrise, rode the long boats carrying Wakea, beautiful creature of peace and laughter whose curling brown hair trapped the red-gold of sunlight and whose strange level eyes held the sea’s deepest mystery, changing like water in light and shadow. So the Fair God moved into the dawn toward the Lands of the Dawn Star, sped onward by the chants of farewell sung by the sorrowing people. And since that day, though some have said the he is sometimes seen in spirit, yet in the flesh they are still waiting for him to come back to his beloved islands of Polynesia.

 

[pare]

I thought perhaps I should add a bit more with scriptural support since the copy-and-paste provides some ease.

Moses 5: 4-7. 16-25
4 And Adam and Eve, his wife, called upon the name of the Lord, and they heard the voice of the Lord from the way toward the Garden of Eden, speaking unto them, and they saw him not; for they were shut out from his presence.
5 And he gave unto them commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks, for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord.
6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.
7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.
. . .
16 And Adam and Eve, his wife, ceased not to call upon God. And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bare Cain, and said: I have gotten a man from the Lord; wherefore he may not reject his words. But behold, Cain hearkened not, saying: Who is the Lord that I should know him?
17 And she again conceived and bare his brother Abel. And Abel hearkened unto the voice of the Lord. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
18 And Cain loved Satan more than God. And Satan commanded him, saying: Make an offering unto the Lord.
19 And in process of time it came to pass that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
20 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock, and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel, and to his offering;
21 But unto Cain, and to his offering, he had not respect. Now Satan knew this, and it pleased him. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
22 And the Lord said unto Cain: Why art thou wroth? Why is thy countenance fallen?
23 If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted. And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan desireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt rule over him;
24 For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.
25 And it shall be said in time to come — That these abominations were had from Cain; for he rejected the greater counsel which was had from God; and this is a cursing which I will put upon thee, except thou repent.

Gen. 4: 13-15
13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

We read from above about Cain's corruption of the priesthood ordinance symbolizing the Great Sacrifice. They were commanded to offer the firstlings of their flocks, which offering was a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father. But Cain made his own variation of the ordinance - "Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord."

Cain could not be trusted regarding priesthood matters. "The Lord had respect unto Abel, and to his offering; But unto Cain, and to his offering, he had not respect."

Cain disregarded the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father. As a priest, who was called to perform the ordinance in which a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father was offered, Cain failed miserably. Cain disregarded the sacred things of the priesthood; and therefore the priesthood authority was withdrawn from Cain.

Cain was called Perdition. This was apparently the kind of spirit that he was before he was born. The scripture says "for thou wast also before the world."

Cain became the father of people who perpetuated the "abominations' that "were had from Cain". The people who were born in the lineage of Cain were born in the lineage of Cain because they were very much of the same spirit as Cain's before they were born into the world. Cain's lineage perpetuated the abominations and the curse was continued; they bore the mark of the curse and they were denied the priesthood authority because they cannot be trusted.

A similar disregard of the sacred things of the priesthood was perpetuated by Ham after the flood; and the mark of the curse which is the "blackness" was brought on Canaan, which again ordained a lineage into which rebellious spirits were born - because these spirits must have been rebellious like Cain before they came into the world.

Gen. 9: 18-27
18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.
19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.
20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness.
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Moses 7: 8
8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

The land was actually cursed with so much melanin-producing heat and a blackness came upon the children of Canaan that they were particularly despised among all people.

As far as I know the mark of the curse and its meaning as pertains the descendants of Canaan was never lifted by any sacred pronouncement until the 1978 declaration of a revelation to Pres. Spencer W. Kimball of the Mormon Church.


The mark of the curse was also placed on the Lamanites who disregarded the sacred things of the priesthood. The Lamanites sought to destroy those who honored the priesthood.

Alma 3: 7 (7-16)
7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.

And then the mark of the curse was erased when everyone became very righteous after the visit of the resurrected Christ.

4 Nephi 1: 17, 20
17 There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.

However, after a while, again there came a great divide among the people; the people grouped themselves into Nephites and Lamanites and they had terrible wars that practically annihilated the Nephites and only "Lamanites" were left alive. These again became a dark, filthy and loathsome people.

Mormon 5: 15
15 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.

But there was no more mention of any curse put upon them as pertaining to the priesthood restrictions - except that there is mention that they became idolatrous unbelievers, which means they had no worthy priesthood holders.


The latter-day leaders actually acknowledged the scriptural stipulations regarding the curse associated with the skin of blackness, especially as eprtains the descendants of Canaan (which I think was understood to be the African people). The blacks were 'generally' not ordained the priesthood authority and could not therefore administer the priesthood ordinances.

Like the Canaanite woman who implored the Lord, they were allowed certain blessings - like that in the ordinances for the forgiveness of sins. But they were not allowed the ordinances for exaltation since these entailed that they be entrusted the priesthood authority to administer the priesthood ordinances. This is of course until the 1978 declaration.

I was already a convert to the Mormon Church many years before the 1978 declaration regarding the priesthood for the black people. It was not a surprise or an extraordinarily difficult issue for us. We were satisfied by the scriptural explanations and personal spiritual confirmations regarding the 1978 declaration.

The Lord must have deemed it prudent for the Church to not have black priesthood holders during the time when blacks were generally slaves and when the black culture was pretty much un-enticing. This ended of course when the black people gained enough social respectability and also the honor before the Lord (circa 1978).

In sum, I think the terms "racist/racism", "racial discrimination" and "racial prejudice" should be understood and used correctly.

. . .

As for the science thing, I actually like the science ideas mixed with the religion (e.g., among my faves is "kinematic relativity" as reconciled with LDS ideas ) -

The religion of the Latter-day Saints is not hostile to any truth, nor to scientific search for truth. "That which is demonstrated, we accept with joy," said the First Presidency in their Christmas greeting to the Saints, "but vain philosophy, human theory and mere speculations of men we do not accept, nor do we adopt anything contrary to divine revelation or to good common sense, but everything that tends to right conduct, that harmonizes with sound morality and increases faith in Deity, finds favor with us, no matter where it may be found." ["Words in Season from the First Presidency," Deseret Evening News, 17 Dec. 1910, 3.]

I do not see how the idea of the evolution of man from the apes "tends to right conduct,.. harmonizes with sound morality and increases faith in Deity."
. . .

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you Pare. We need to be very careful that we don't project meanings from the scriptures that aren't there. I think we need to read the scriptures as literally as possible in most cases.
The scriptures clearly state the land of Canaan was cursed with much heat. It also clearly states the Lamanites of Book of Mormon times were cursed with a skin of blackness. It also clearly states this curse was removed before the Book ended.
The scriptures clearly state that the seed of Cain were cursed "as to the priesthood", but only "marked" with dark skin. This mark was clearly for one purpose. To distinguish one as a descendant of Ham/Cain. The other is clear that it was a blessing of adaptation to a climate cursed with heat in which they would be confined for the most part of several thousand years.

My biggest disagreement with you is this. You know better that all people who have been given a body in this life have done so by achieving a great honor in the pre-mortal realm; that of keeping their "first estate", which is clear proof they chose the plan of Jesus and not Lucifer. So you must abandon the concept of Cain's wickedness prior to his birth. He chose the Lord's plan on that side but did not keep his "second estate" which is this life and chose to join Satan the second time around. Speculation on the reason why people are born into certain races is worthless. We all chose Jesus prior to our birth so none of the rest matters. We are all born into different circumstances for reasons known to God only. But the reason for our birth is clear: To show that we can overcome the difficulties with which we will be faced. We will all experience similar levels of challenges. They'll just be in different aspects of life. Blacks face different challenges than whites and vice versa. But we'll all have to choose obedience to God's commands in the face of great pressure to do otherwise.
That is the official doctrine of the Church. All else is speculation if positive at all.

Truthspeaker,

Of course, we can respectfully disagree where we disagree. And we can also happily agree where we agree.

I can only say that what I share here is according to my understanding of things. I am not a General Authority, and so I cannot vouch that what I say here is the official doctrine of the Church. I speak here simply as a humble member of the Church.

And so, please, everyone, note that I speak only according to my understanding of the doctrines of the LDS Church. If I get corrected by one with the proper authority, then I will stand corrected. Of course, that will not disuade me from asking for explanations regarding the doctrine of which somebody attempts to correct me.

Truthspeaker, let me just say thank you for your efforts.

. . .

 

[Truthspeaker]

Any comments on the Wakea post?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Truth, you crack me up. You better query the folks at the Neal Maxwell Institute about your intepretations above about valiant angels, cursed colors, and descendents. You will make them swallow their bubble gum. They gave up that thinking a long time ago, and I truly think your President Monson would tell you to shut up. Tell you what. Go and email his office what you posted above to Pare. I won't do it, but I will challenge you to do it.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I thought perhaps I should add a bit more with scriptural support since the copy-and-paste provides some ease.

Moses 5: 4-7. 16-25
4 And Adam and Eve, his wife, called upon the name of the Lord, and they heard the voice of the Lord from the way toward the Garden of Eden, speaking unto them, and they saw him not; for they were shut out from his presence.
5 And he gave unto them commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks, for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord.
6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.
7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.
. . .
16 And Adam and Eve, his wife, ceased not to call upon God. And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bare Cain, and said: I have gotten a man from the Lord; wherefore he may not reject his words. But behold, Cain hearkened not, saying: Who is the Lord that I should know him?
17 And she again conceived and bare his brother Abel. And Abel hearkened unto the voice of the Lord. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
18 And Cain loved Satan more than God. And Satan commanded him, saying: Make an offering unto the Lord.
19 And in process of time it came to pass that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
20 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock, and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel, and to his offering;
21 But unto Cain, and to his offering, he had not respect. Now Satan knew this, and it pleased him. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
22 And the Lord said unto Cain: Why art thou wroth? Why is thy countenance fallen?
23 If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted. And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan desireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt rule over him;
24 For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.
25 And it shall be said in time to come — That these abominations were had from Cain; for he rejected the greater counsel which was had from God; and this is a cursing which I will put upon thee, except thou repent.

Gen. 4: 13-15
13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

We read from above about Cain's corruption of the priesthood ordinance symbolizing the Great Sacrifice. They were commanded to offer the firstlings of their flocks, which offering was a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father. But Cain made his own variation of the ordinance - "Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord."

Cain could not be trusted regarding priesthood matters. "The Lord had respect unto Abel, and to his offering; But unto Cain, and to his offering, he had not respect."

Cain disregarded the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father. As a priest, who was called to perform the ordinance in which a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father was offered, Cain failed miserably. Cain disregarded the sacred things of the priesthood; and therefore the priesthood authority was withdrawn from Cain.

Cain was called Perdition. This was apparently the kind of spirit that he was before he was born. The scripture says "for thou wast also before the world."

Cain became the father of people who perpetuated the "abominations' that "were had from Cain". The people who were born in the lineage of Cain were born in the lineage of Cain because they were very much of the same spirit as Cain's before they were born into the world. Cain's lineage perpetuated the abominations and the curse was continued; they bore the mark of the curse and they were denied the priesthood authority because they cannot be trusted.

A similar disregard of the sacred things of the priesthood was perpetuated by Ham after the flood; and the mark of the curse which is the "blackness" was brought on Canaan, which again ordained a lineage into which rebellious spirits were born - because these spirits must have been rebellious like Cain before they came into the world.

Gen. 9: 18-27
18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.
19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.
20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness.
24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Moses 7: 8
8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

The land was actually cursed with so much melanin-producing heat and a blackness came upon the children of Canaan that they were particularly despised among all people.

As far as I know the mark of the curse and its meaning as pertains the descendants of Canaan was never lifted by any sacred pronouncement until the 1978 declaration of a revelation to Pres. Spencer W. Kimball of the Mormon Church.


The mark of the curse was also placed on the Lamanites who disregarded the sacred things of the priesthood. The Lamanites sought to destroy those who honored the priesthood.

Alma 3: 7 (7-16)
7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.

And then the mark of the curse was erased when everyone became very righteous after the visit of the resurrected Christ.

4 Nephi 1: 17, 20
17 There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.

However, after a while, again there came a great divide among the people; the people grouped themselves into Nephites and Lamanites and they had terrible wars that practically annihilated the Nephites and only "Lamanites" were left alive. These again became a dark, filthy and loathsome people.

Mormon 5: 15
15 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.

But there was no more mention of any curse put upon them as pertaining to the priesthood restrictions - except that there is mention that they became idolatrous unbelievers, which means they had no worthy priesthood holders.


The latter-day leaders actually acknowledged the scriptural stipulations regarding the curse associated with the skin of blackness, especially as eprtains the descendants of Canaan (which I think was understood to be the African people). The blacks were 'generally' not ordained the priesthood authority and could not therefore administer the priesthood ordinances.

Like the Canaanite woman who implored the Lord, they were allowed certain blessings - like that in the ordinances for the forgiveness of sins. But they were not allowed the ordinances for exaltation since these entailed that they be entrusted the priesthood authority to administer the priesthood ordinances. This is of course until the 1978 declaration.



Truthspeaker,

Of course, we can respectfully disagree where we disagree. And we can also happily agree where we agree.

I can only say that what I share here is according to my understanding of things. I am not a General Authority, and so I cannot vouch that what I say here is the official doctrine of the Church. I speak here simply as a humble member of the Church.

And so, please, everyone, note that I speak only according to my understanding of the doctrines of the LDS Church. If I get corrected by one with the proper authority, then I will stand corrected. Of course, that will not disuade me from asking for explanations regarding the doctrine of which somebody attempts to correct me.

Truthspeaker, let me just say thank you for your efforts.

Thanks pare,
I'm glad someone besides me is chiming in. This is a discussion forum so it's all good. the only way we will ever learn is if we all keep an open mind. The problem of circularity someitmes found on these boards is that people get their mind made up and don't want to explore the other side.
Although I have told everyone that my mind is made up to the veracity of the Church, I have told everyone that I am willing to listen to all points of view, however uncomfortable or taboo they may appear to be. I'm on a mission to flush out all the toughest questions. In a way it is a personal vindication that I've been seeking. I feel I've come up against the toughest waves, but like the cliff, my faith is still standing. Others will say I don't know, but I do know that Christ lived and visited his people. I'm further and further convinced that his travels spanned the globe; accounts of which travels are piece by piece coming to the knowledge of the world.
When the Nephites asked why Jesus was leaving them, he answered, "I go to show myself unto the other lost tribes of Israel. For they are not lost unto the father, for he knoweth whither he hath taken them."

This book I was telling people about gives me the biggest goosebumps when I read it because he uses so many of the same exact words when visiting these other native tribes not of the Nephites.

 

[pare]

Truthspeaker, after re-reading my posts, I think you may be right on the matter of abandoning the idea of Cain's wickedness before his birth.

The word "wicked" is not appropriate. I should have said "lukewarm" and "less valiant" or even "less devoted" spirits. Because, if I remember correctly, what has been taught us is that there were noble and great spirits in the premortal world and also that the premortal spirits had varying degrees of devotion to the Lord Jesus and to God in the premortal world. I think I jumbled my contextual use of the word "wicked." My apologies.

Now, perhaps, because some premortal spirits were less valiant and lukewarm, these spirits were given more challenges in the mortal world and not just the different challenges at the same level of difficulty as that of others. But, like I said, perhaps. So, that is speculative. But that somehow makes sense according to what we can see of other people's lot in life.

However, it is clear that there are those who have been relegated to a race in which they were not given the privilege of the priesthood for a very long while - which to my understanding means that they were not entrusted the priesthood because they could not be trusted to magnify or enlarge the prieshood since they don't have the devotion to the Lord.

In the mortal world, Cain actually proved that he loved Satan more than God and rejected the greater counsel from God. But those who descended from Cain suffered the curse of having the priesthood denied to them without the actual disobedient actions in the mortal world. And while Cain was born into a family with godly parents, Cain's descendants were born into a lineage who loved Satan and hated God and where thus denied the priesthood. And so also with Ham and his descendants. The Lamanites, too.

Regarding Cain being a perdition even before he wast in the world, I based my understanding on verse 24 "thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world." But you could be right the relevant idea is probably not there - and my interpretation may be speculative...

Also, I think in the Book of Abraham God said all the spirits in the heavenly counsel were "good" and among the "good" there were the noble and great ones. I can't find the scripture now.

Now, perhaps some people actually deserve to be tested more by being born into a cursed lineage with the more difficult level of challenges. So, what do you think regarding this? - of course, from what you know of the official doctrine and what you see by your own experience...

. . .

 

[pare]

I think I must add.

There is the idea that a very few are ordained to be vessels of wrath; the idea is that God in his foreknowledge knew that these few would be sons of perdition at whatever throw of the dice that God could possibly do for them. God must have placed them in the most conducive but just circumstance to prove themselves worthy of the high goal; but it became inevitable for them to choose the bad - as for instance, Cain who apparently had a very close relationship with God yet Cain loved Satan more than God, and also Judas who betrayed the Lord. God knew what they were and what evil they would do; and it would have been better for them not to have been born; but God sent them here on earth because they were necessary in God's great plan.

Cain and Judas were not born into a lineage cursed as pertaining to the priesthood; but their high callings in the priesthood became their undoing because by their priesthood they obtained the greater light yet rebelled against God.

One is therefore led to the idea that perhaps it has been a blessing to those who were cursed as pertaining to the priesthood because the restriction actually precluded their having the greater light which is the only circumstance under which they could have committed the unforgivable sin. Even if they fail to achieve the high goal, at least they earn a measure of salvation in the kingdoms of glory.

I think here is the reasoning why we sometimes talk in parables (riddles) to some people; it spares them the perdition.

Yet, for those who are truly in the sincere search for the knowledge of God, let them knock at the door, let them search for God in earnest and surely they will find Him - and certainly so if they go to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I know that in these last days this is the only church wherein the earnest will truly and thoroughly find Him.

. . .

I said you may be right about letting go of the idea regarding Cain's wickedness before his birth.

However, there are a few people in the scriptures that I can remember were actually declared as sons of perdition. Cain is one and Judas is one.

Obviously, they both had the high priesthood whereby they obtained the greater light. As I've stated, the circumstance of having the greater light "is the only circumstance under which they could have committed the unforgivable sin."

Both Cain and Judas were non-blacks who committed the unforgivable sin.

In our day, blacks can have the priesthood. It may be possible that this time when a son of perdition will be revealed he would be a black man... This is of course pure speculation... (And these speculations, although helps in guiding our perspectives, are as we say in church "not essential to salvation.")

. . .

 

[Truthspeaker]

Truth, you crack me up. You better query the folks at the Neal Maxwell Institute about your intepretations above about valiant angels, cursed colors, and descendents. You will make them swallow their bubble gum. They gave up that thinking a long time ago, and I truly think your President Monson would tell you to shut up. Tell you what. Go and email his office what you posted above to Pare. I won't do it, but I will challenge you to do it.

I've been known to take pride in my sense of humor. Glad to make you smile in one way or another. I've already done my consulting with the blessed institute. Please tell me where I contradict what they say. I'm fine with the doctrine being put forth here. If you aren't happy with it then fine. I can't please everybody. Neither could Jesus. When are you ever going to bring some examples of how erroneous I am instead of just saying I'm erroneous? Where is your authority to tell us what we believe when you aren't even a member of our church?

 

[Eightball]

Truth, you crack me up. You better query the folks at the Neal Maxwell Institute about your intepretations above about valiant angels, cursed colors, and descendents. You will make them swallow their bubble gum. They gave up that thinking a long time ago, and I truly think your President Monson would tell you to shut up. Tell you what. Go and email his office what you posted above to Pare. I won't do it, but I will challenge you to do it.

I've been known to take pride in my sense of humor. Glad to make you smile in one way or another. I've already done my consulting with the blessed institute. Please tell me where I contradict what they say. I'm fine with the doctrine being put forth here. If you aren't happy with it then fine. I can't please everybody. Neither could Jesus. When are you ever going to bring some examples of how erroneous I am instead of just saying I'm erroneous? Where is your authority to tell us what we believe when you aren't even a member of our church?

Jesus couldn't please everyone either? You are absolutely amazing. You actually include the Son of God, the "I AM" in your incongruities.

The pride exuded by you Truthspeaker is something of the highest order. "Me and Jesus" both get picked-on.

You can't hold a candle to Jesus, and the persecution He endured is because He expressed the "truth" as He was the "Word" come in the flesh. The Word was with God, and was God............You ain't. You are flesh, but not of Christ's flesh. The only similarity between you and Him is that you had human fleshly bodies. That's where it ends.
********
You have been hit or exposed or bombarded over hundreds of pages of thread with valid incongruities of your church, yet you blow'em off or say that you answered the inquirey.

You've and your Mormon tag-team of posters here have never adequately answered how an "Omnipotent God" could allow His God-inspired Word become corrupted or inaccurate or incomplete over all these years? The question is convenitently ignored.

In fact, why would our loving, Omnipotent Creator let His written Word become unsatisfactory in total, and need to be "fixed" by Moroni and J.S. Jr.?

Can the Mormon god, trully be omnipotent? Foundationally, your church stands upon the attributes of a "non-omnipotent" god, or one of a succession of gods.

Funny how the Apostle Paul said their would be many Anti-Christs before the real biggee shows up as described in Revelations by the Apostle John, while exiled on the island of Patmos?

 

[Avatar4321]

Jesus couldn't please everyone either? You are absolutely amazing. You actually include the Son of God, the "I AM" in your incongruities.

What is inaccurate about that? Christ taught the truth, and they killed Him for it. You think the servant is somehow better than the master? That somehow we are supposed to make everyone happy when Christ didnt? He didnt bring everyone peace and forgiveness. He brought it to those that repented. The Gift is available to all, but can a gift you dont accept make you happy?

The pride exuded by you Truthspeaker is something of the highest order. "Me and Jesus" both get picked-on.

If we are doing what Christ did, why should we expect to accomplish more than He did? The calling of a disciple is to wade through persecution as the master did.

You can't hold a candle to Jesus, and the persecution He endured is because He expressed the "truth" as He was the "Word" come in the flesh. The Word was with God, and was God............You ain't. You are flesh, but not of Christ's flesh. The only similarity between you and Him is that you had human fleshly bodies. That's where it ends.

Has anyone claimed that they have suffered more than Christ?

********
You have been hit or exposed or bombarded over hundreds of pages of thread with valid incongruities of your church, yet you blow'em off or say that you answered the inquirey.

You're wrong, of course. You ahve been bombarded with over a hundred pages of a thread showing how you have no concept of what you are critisizing. Specifically where in the scriptures you find everything to support the Restoration. You still ignore it.

For example, I know for a fact that Ive pointed out countless references in the Bible for the Doctrine of Diefication. You still pretend as though its blaphemy to acknowledge that the scriptures teach that the ultimate state of man is to become a god. When Christ himself stated that those who recieved the Word of God were gods.

Yet you continue to claim as though the Bible doesnt teach it. You refuse to address a single verse quoted contrary to your view. In fact, all you ever do on this therad is cut and paste from various webpages criticisms that have been answered again and again.

You've and your Mormon tag-team of posters here have never adequately answered how an "Omnipotent God" could allow His God-inspired Word become corrupted or inaccurate or incomplete over all these years? The question is convenitently ignored.

When you realize that the Word of God is Jesus Christ, the question is absurd. Are you claiming that Christ was corrupted? When you stop worshipping the scriptures and realize that we are to worship the Father through Christ, you realize how absurd objections are.

Oh, and we have addressed this dozens of time. You still ignore our answers. So the real question is why do you have to lie when we have over 100 pages of proof?

Where does God say that He would take away human agency and the human factor from any record? Where does he say that the Bible is all there is? He doesnt. You know that and you continue to act as though if God doesnt act the way you think He should then He is somehow not all powerful.

God has never intended man to live off revelations meant to another. We are to live by the revelations He gives us. He preserves His word by Constantly revealing it to each and every generation.

Which version of the scriptures is the uncorrupted perfect version?

In fact, why would our loving, Omnipotent Creator let His written Word become unsatisfactory in total, and need to be "fixed" by Moroni and J.S. Jr.?

The more appropriately, why would an omnopotent Creator suddenly become silent and reveal no more to His children when He has done so in every generation the Gospel has been revealed to the earth?

Why should we ignore the scriptures when they expressly prophecy that the Lord will send an angel in the last day carrying the Everlasting Gospel for the people?

Why should we honor dead prophets and ignore the living ones? The Pharisees did that and Christ blasted them for it. They were so certain they were living correctly beause of their interpretations of old revelations that they missed the ultimate revelation of all: The Son of God in their midsts. How are your actions any different than theirs?

Can the Mormon god, trully be omnipotent? Foundationally, your church stands upon the attributes of a "non-omnipotent" god, or one of a succession of gods.

Nonsense, and you know it.

Funny how the Apostle Paul said their would be many Anti-Christs before the real biggee shows up as described in Revelations by the Apostle John, while exiled on the island of Patmos?

Seems irrelevant to your post at hand, but what exactly makes you think that you arent the anti-christ in this situation?

 

[Dr Grump]

I just love it when hardcore Christians can't agree. Now you know why us non-believers think religion is hogwash. People interpret the scripts to suit themselves and announce it is "the truth"....

 

[Avatar4321]

I just love it when hardcore Christians can't agree. Now you know why us non-believers think religion is hogwash. People interpret the scripts to suit themselves and announce it is "the truth"....

Course, it could just be because you dont bother putting in any effort to understand. Nor any bother to find God on your own.

 

[Dr Grump]

I just love it when hardcore Christians can't agree. Now you know why us non-believers think religion is hogwash. People interpret the scripts to suit themselves and announce it is "the truth"....

Course, it could just be because you dont bother putting in any effort to understand. Nor any bother to find God on your own.

Oh, I put the effort in. With religious education classes I was always in the top 3 or 4 in the class....

Your comment, BTW, had nothing to do with my point. The Catholics say they have all the answers, as do the Mormons, then the Presbyterians, then the Lutherans, then the 7th day adventists, then the Baptists, then the Greek and Russian Orthodox...

...face it, you guys can't even decide amongst yourselves what is what...

And I haven't even started on the Sunni/Shi'ite/Nazari Muslims and Orthodox/Hisadic/Secular Jews...

 

[jillian]

And I haven't even started on the Sunni/Shi'ite/Nazari Muslims and Orthodox/Hisadic/Secular Jews...

and conservative jews... and reform jews...and kabbalists...

at least Jews are honest about it...we KNOW that if you ask 3 Jews a question, you get ten opinions.

 

[Avatar4321]

I just love it when hardcore Christians can't agree. Now you know why us non-believers think religion is hogwash. People interpret the scripts to suit themselves and announce it is "the truth"....

Course, it could just be because you dont bother putting in any effort to understand. Nor any bother to find God on your own.

Oh, I put the effort in. With religious education classes I was always in the top 3 or 4 in the class....

Your comment, BTW, had nothing to do with my point. The Catholics say they have all the answers, as do the Mormons, then the Presbyterians, then the Lutherans, then the 7th day adventists, then the Baptists, then the Greek and Russian Orthodox...

...face it, you guys can't even decide amongst yourselves what is what...

And I haven't even started on the Sunni/Shi'ite/Nazari Muslims and Orthodox/Hisadic/Secular Jews...

I was unaware that we needed a consensus to determine what the truth is. I foolishly thought we were supposed to seek it for ourselves from the Source and then live it.

 

[Dr Grump]

Aye

 

[Dr Grump]

I was unaware that we needed a consensus to determine what the truth is. I foolishly thought we were supposed to seek it for ourselves from the Source and then live it.

You don't think 1 billion Catholics have consensus? Or Baptists? Or Mormons?

Even the above is YOUR own interpretation of what Christianity is supposed to be. If there is no consensus, you have no religion (or sect of a certain religion)...

 

[Avatar4321]

I was unaware that we needed a consensus to determine what the truth is. I foolishly thought we were supposed to seek it for ourselves from the Source and then live it.

You don't think 1 billion Catholics have consensus? Or Baptists? Or Mormons?

Even the above is YOUR own interpretation of what Christianity is supposed to be. If there is no consensus, you have no religion (or sect of a certain religion)...

Did I say that?

You are saying that because there is no consensus between the various sects, none are believable. I pointed out how every sect finding consensus doesnt determine what is true. the facts determine what are true.

Now you are arguing internal consensus within a sect, which is a completely different aspect.

I dont think consensus determines truth, period. I do think that if you are honestly seeking out the truth, that you will keep the commandments of God. And as you do that the Lord will continue to reveal the truth and His will to you until you are one with God. And if that is your goal, the fact that there is no consensus now is irrelevant. Because the goal is to be one, its not something that happens instantenously.

The scriptures may be interpreted differnetly, that doesnt mean that all interpretations are correct. That is one of the points of discussion on the scriptures, to flesh out the true interpretations. However, despite this the only way to know the truth for one self is to humble yourself before God and ask Him to reveal the truth to you. So you can live it and serve God and glorify Him through your service.

To simply pronounce them all wrong because there is no consensus, is just illogical and intellectually, and honestly, lazy. Do you think that because two people disagree on a verse, that you are excused from seeking the truth on the matter?

Either Jesus Christ rose from the dead or He didnt. Either the Book of Mormon is a true record or it's not. The fact that rational people disagree, doesn't mean that neither answer is correct. It just means you need to go to the source and find out the truth from God.