The Truth about Mormons

[Dr Grump]

It just means you need to go to the source and find out the truth from God.

And i have yet to meet anybody who has done so. Met plenty of people who have claimed such though....but I don't believe them...

 

[JakeStarkey]

Avatar: I was unaware that we needed a consensus to determine what the truth is. I foolishly thought we were supposed to seek it for ourselves from the Source and then live it.

===============

I thought your prophets, Avatar, determined the "consensus" for "what the truth is." You are not playing cleanly or fairly.

And, by the by, the earlier post by T'speaker about the concept of "pre-existent valiant spirits" and race etc is an outdated, shopworn much earlier LDS speculation that is no longer current among the LDS leadeship. Go to LDS.org for a far more current position on the "blacks" and the Priesthood.

 

[Avatar4321]

Avatar: I was unaware that we needed a consensus to determine what the truth is. I foolishly thought we were supposed to seek it for ourselves from the Source and then live it.

===============

I thought your prophets, Avatar, determined the "consensus" for "what the truth is." You are not playing cleanly or fairly.

And, by the by, the earlier post by T'speaker about the concept of "pre-existent valiant spirits" and race etc is an outdated, shopworn much earlier LDS speculation that is no longer current among the LDS leadeship. Go to LDS.org for a far more current position on the "blacks" and the Priesthood.

You're wrong. God determines what the truth is.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Avatar is parsing poorly. Latter Day Saints (LDS), such as Avatar and Truthspeaker and others here, believe that their prophets reveal that consensus of God's will. LDS merely ratify that consensus through personal prayer and pondering. In other words, God is not going to speak for humanity to Avatar or me, and Avatar and I can't speak for God other than how He has revealed unto each of us individually for our own needs. If Avatar attempted to speak to the LDS Church in the name of God, her prophets would silence her and excommunicate her if necessary.

Here is an interesting article on DNA and the genetic ancestors of Native Americans. http://www.genetica rchaeology. com/research/ Native_Americans _descended_ from_a_single_ ancestral_ group_DNA_ study_confirms. asp

 

[pare]

Latter Day Saints (LDS) believe that God reveals the truth and His will through His prophets, and the prophets declare the truth and the will of God to the Church (mainly, the people who are in this world but are not of this world) and also to all humanity.

The prophets have the priesthood authority from God that gives them the privilege to receive revelations and prophesy to the people as a whole or to particular persons as individuals.

Other LDS leaders are also given the privilege to receive pertinent revelations through the Holy Spirit but only for the Church "units" for which they are given particular authority.

Each of us is allowed the privilege to receive personal revelations on the truth and the will of God for ourselves through the Holy Spirit if we prove ourselves worthy.

We therefore may determine for ourselves what the truth is and what the will of God is. But, sadly, we may also deceive ourselves if we have not prepared ourselves.

. . .

Truth according to a consensus of the people would be something that people in the majority voted upon to be the "truth." This is according to the popular idea that "the voice of the people is the voice of God." However, strictly, "the voice of the people" - even in the majority - is not necessarily the voice of God. Thus, truth according to a consensus of the people is not necessarily the truth. The voice of God as the principal voice [or even the lone voice] in the consensus makes the consensus the truth.

God has been trying to make people understand the truth so that they might obey His will.

But most people don't even understand what the particulars are, and therefore they can't know what the truth is. Hence most people don't know God's will and therefore are unable to obey His will.

. . .

 

[Avatar4321]

Why is revelation such a difficult concept for you? God reveals His will to His children. It's not consensus. People cant just agree what to call God's will and make it so. Only God can reveal His will. And the only way to learn that is through Humble supplication for the truth.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I just love it when hardcore Christians can't agree. Now you know why us non-believers think religion is hogwash. People interpret the scripts to suit themselves and announce it is "the truth"....

Course, it could just be because you dont bother putting in any effort to understand. Nor any bother to find God on your own.

Oh, I put the effort in. With religious education classes I was always in the top 3 or 4 in the class....

Religious classes do nothing but teach the tenets of different religions. Hopefully accurately, hopefully without biased interjections from the "professor".
God is not found in class. He's found in private meditation.

Your comment, BTW, had nothing to do with my point. The Catholics say they have all the answers, as do the Mormons, then the Presbyterians, then the Lutherans, then the 7th day adventists, then the Baptists, then the Greek and Russian Orthodox...

Catholics do ANYTHING but claim to have all the answers. Their teaching is that you can't get all the answers. That everything is part of the great mystery of god; and since you can't know, you shouldn't question, which is the very essence of dogma.

The Presbyterians are a branch off of Calvinism who originally claimed the Pope to be the anti-christ. They believe the Bible itself to be infallible. They now believe that if you confess your faith and believe in Jesus you will be saved. If you don't you're going to hell. Pretty cut and dry who gets in to them.

The Lutherans are formed because of people who adopted Martin Luther's 95 theses into their religion. They too exist only to oppose the Catholic church. they believe the Bible infallible and the only document to be used for judgment in spiritual matters. They teach that everyone is going to heaven as a free gift from Jesus.

Seventh Day adventists have a peculiar obsession with the Jewish Sabbath Day being a major part of salvation. They think you need to observe it on Saturday to be in good standing with God.

Baptists focus on the need for baptism to get into heaven and particularly by immersion. All else burn in the lake of fire.

Greek and Russian Orthodox churches are essentially Catholicism. But even they broke away from the Roman Catholic church over doctrinal differences. They teach that all will go to hell if they don't accept their doctrines. Even if they never get a chance to hear them. Babies included.

We never claimed to have all the answers. We believe all that God has revealed. We believe that he will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to His kingdom.

We have NEVER claimed others are going to hell because they do not subscribe to our religion. Muslims certainly do. Jews not so much. They believe God judges on the heart. We agree with that.

...face it, you guys can't even decide amongst yourselves what is what...

The problem is you are lumping us all together as if we believe we all are going to make it. That's not fair because we are all trying to separate ourselves from other churches. There can only be one true church, not two, or a thousand. That's because there can only be one correct answer to any theologic question. Different interpretations will always come but that doesn't mean they are all wrong together. It takes patience, desire and deep meditation to commune with God to get the right answers and weed out erroneous creeds.

And I haven't even started on the Sunni/Shi'ite/Nazari Muslims and Orthodox/Hisadic/Secular Jews...

It's as simple as self righteous people condemning other self righteous people when they are all committing major sins by being and doing so. People who do such things think they know God because they know the verses of their scriptures; But they really don't because their violent actions do not agree with what their scriptures teach. Only according to their wild and secretly intentional manipulations of those scriptures.

 

[Truthspeaker]

It just means you need to go to the source and find out the truth from God.

And i have yet to meet anybody who has done so. Met plenty of people who have claimed such though....but I don't believe them...

If you don't believe them then that's your prerogotive. It's my opinion that you have not had a true burning desire to know for yourself that God even exists, let alone what is his true religion.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Avatar: I was unaware that we needed a consensus to determine what the truth is. I foolishly thought we were supposed to seek it for ourselves from the Source and then live it.

===============

I thought your prophets, Avatar, determined the "consensus" for "what the truth is." You are not playing cleanly or fairly.

And, by the by, the earlier post by T'speaker about the concept of "pre-existent valiant spirits" and race etc is an outdated, shopworn much earlier LDS speculation that is no longer current among the LDS leadeship. Go to LDS.org for a far more current position on the "blacks" and the Priesthood.

Thanks for changing the subject and again showing your lack of understanding our leadership from top to bottom. But I agree that everyone should visit lds.org as much as possible.

The Prophet's word is not a consensus. It's a revelation direct from God. There's no democracy on the subject of what God's word is. It's a true monarchy with announcements coming from the Top.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Avatar is parsing poorly. Latter Day Saints (LDS), such as Avatar and Truthspeaker and others here, believe that their prophets reveal that consensus of God's will. LDS merely ratify that consensus through personal prayer and pondering. In other words, God is not going to speak for humanity to Avatar or me, and Avatar and I can't speak for God other than how He has revealed unto each of us individually for our own needs. If Avatar attempted to speak to the LDS Church in the name of God, her prophets would silence her and excommunicate her if necessary.

Here is an interesting article on DNA and the genetic ancestors of Native Americans. http://www.genetica rchaeology. com/research/ Native_Americans _descended_ from_a_single_ ancestral_ group_DNA_ study_confirms. asp

Of course God reveals us what we need to know. It would be contrary to order to have random people receive revelations for the whole church. It doesn't make sense logically.

 

[Avatar4321]

Of course God reveals us what we need to know. It would be contrary to order to have random people receive revelations for the whole church. It doesn't make sense logically.

And yet anyone can know anything that is revealed to the Leaders through the same way. Through Humble prayer.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Here is an interesting article on DNA and the genetic ancestors of Native Americans. http://www.genetica rchaeology. com/research/ Native_Americans _descended_ from_a_single_ ancestral_ group_DNA_ study_confirms. asp.

Thanks for coming back to this. It needs to be understood the DNA issue. It is indeed an interesting article. But it's just that. Interesting. It raises more questions than answers.
I don't doubt for one minute that there was a large migration from across the Siberian land bridge. But people who claim that that's the ONLY way people ever got here are clinging to a prejudicial dogma. The evidence in support of other migrations is now at the staggering point. People fail to realize just how much ancient trade happened accross the oceans in the ancient americas. Which is the reason why archaeologists continue to scratch their heads at the appearance of cocoa and tobacco and as many as 96 confirmed vegetables/plant species known to have origins in only the americas, appearing in ancient precolumbian Egypt and middle eastern countries. There are mountainous amounts of arguments for and against the Book of Mormon voyages described. It tells us one thing. One answer is correct. Either those migrations happened, or they didn't.

Bear in mind these thoughts however, the migrations of the Jaredites, Nephites and Mulekites were all very small and shouldn't really be called migrations more than voyages. These were three secret voyages by small groups of people travelling unannounced.

Scientists who think transoceanic voyages pre-columbus were impossible assume so IGNORANTLY(yes ignorantly. Just because someone has a scientist title doesn't mean they are beyond ignorance) and arrogantly. They believe our society is so advanced that it was so far ahead of theirs that they couldn't possibly have gained the technology on their own. they ignore that many technologies have been lost to time with the death of nations. This is a proven fact. They may even do so out of spite towards the Book of Mormon. Refusing to examine it's contents out of sheer stubbornness.

They also continue to ignore unrelated scientific evidence that the Knights templar came here in boats prior to Columbus. And oh yeah, the Vikings too. More and more we are finding that the technology was available. It was available to the ancient aboriginals who traveled an equivalent distance to Australia from Eurasia. How about the pacific Islanders?uh.................

These small voyages would not make them the primary people on the continent. But then again, as more and more discoveries are made, the more we realize we just don't know.
For example the discovery of Stella 5 at Izapa Chiapas clearly depicting in great detail the vision of the tree of life in Lehi's vision.
Such things cannot be cast aside because of prejudice. I'm not demanding people join the church because of archaeological discoveries. I'm demanding an end to prejudicial dogmas not willing to open their minds to anything other than their conceited views. That's why their ideas are called theories, and not laws or facts. Too often theories are presented as a matter of fact. Too often gullible individuals believe them because they are "scientists"; forgetting that scientists are always taking a step back for every two they take forward.

When are people going to look at history responsibly?

 

[Truthspeaker]

This is an INCREDIBLE website. You can click on the links of each character and the linguist begins to explain how this language is decipherable. He seems to have cracked the code as to what the characters mean. This is truly awesome.
Reformed Egyptian Anthon Transcript

 

[JakeStarkey]

And putting Truthspeaker's whole post above into context with the original editions of the Book of Mormon and the contemporary writings, journals, sermons, and diaries leads to the great discussions of the nex decade: were the Book of Mormon peoples the great civilizations the original and subsequent Mormon leader sermonized about, were they a small group tucked away somewhere in south or centeral America, or is the BoM a wonderful fiction with great truths embedded into it?

These next decades will be a wonderful time for Mormon scholarship.

 

[JakeStarkey]

For more about the "valiant spirits" discussion of blacks and the LDS priesthood, research Rudger Clawson, Mark E. Peterson, Delbert Stapely and contact the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Knowledge at Brigham Young University for the latest apologetics on African American and the LDS priesthood.
Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship - Home

 

[Truthspeaker]

I've always hated the term apologetics because it seems to carry with it the idea we are appologizing for our beliefs and sticking to them in spite of major flaws.
We have nothing to apologize for in our doctrine. I'm glad you are giving some publicity to the Maxwell Institute. It's refreshing. But I still as yet to disagree with anything they present. Which puzzles me every time you think I'm at odds with them. Please give an example of where I said something contrary to them.

 

[Eightball]

This is an INCREDIBLE website. You can click on the links of each character and the linguist begins to explain how this language is decipherable. He seems to have cracked the code as to what the characters mean. This is truly awesome.
Reformed Egyptian Anthon Transcript

Reputable Egyptologists/scholars years ago refuted this "reformed heiroglyphics", yet your church has to perpetuate it any way they can.

I.E. It is 19th century fakery. Only your church and it's LDS sponsored or member researchers accept it as valid.

 

[N4mddissent]

I guess I have answered everyone's questions. I am very happy now. Unless I am wrong?

One question: Do you accept the Theory of Evolution?

Great question. I personally do not believe Man evolved from lesser species. but I do believe animals can evolve. The church does not believe man evolved from any lower species either.

My problem with the theory of evolution is this:
If we evolved from apes, why aren't there still hybrid type species evolving now? Why are chimps gaining intelligence past what they've shown?

Most scientists all agree that we came from a common ancestor. But they are all baffled by the sudden growth spike of intelligence about 6-10 thousand years ago. They all scratch their heads because they believe evolution of that kind would need another 500 million years or so. The rapidity of this growth to me is a strong evidence for the PLACING of man on this earth, rather than his evolvement from previous species.

That being said, if the theory of evolution WERE to be proven, it would only clarify to me in detail how God formed man. My mind is already made up on the subject, but I'm always open to new evidence.

Go here and then tell me what you think. More specifically, consider this section which I find very compelling.

 

[Truthspeaker]

This is an INCREDIBLE website. You can click on the links of each character and the linguist begins to explain how this language is decipherable. He seems to have cracked the code as to what the characters mean. This is truly awesome.
Reformed Egyptian Anthon Transcript

Reputable Egyptologists/scholars years ago refuted this "reformed heiroglyphics", yet your church has to perpetuate it any way they can.

I.E. It is 19th century fakery. Only your church and it's LDS sponsored or member researchers accept it as valid.

This is not the Hoffman forgery. There is a difference between the two. This is the actual "Anthon Script". Common sense dictates that the uneducated Smith had no such ability to write in such curious workmanship. The mere appearance has a strong sense of antiquity.
By the way this reputable scholar who cracked the code explains in great simplicity how these figures are decipherable. His work is undeniable. Click to the website and refute him yourself.

 

[Eightball]

This is an INCREDIBLE website. You can click on the links of each character and the linguist begins to explain how this language is decipherable. He seems to have cracked the code as to what the characters mean. This is truly awesome.
Reformed Egyptian Anthon Transcript

Reputable Egyptologists/scholars years ago refuted this "reformed heiroglyphics", yet your church has to perpetuate it any way they can.

I.E. It is 19th century fakery. Only your church and it's LDS sponsored or member researchers accept it as valid.

This is not the Hoffman forgery. There is a difference between the two. This is the actual "Anthon Script". Common sense dictates that the uneducated Smith had no such ability to write in such curious workmanship. The mere appearance has a strong sense of antiquity.
By the way this reputable scholar who cracked the code explains in great simplicity how these figures are decipherable. His work is undeniable. Click to the website and refute him yourself.

Truthspeaker: Your dream'n and hope'n but your wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthon_transcript

Mainstream scholars' view of reformed Egyptian

Standard language reference works contain no reference to "reformed Egyptian".[3] No non-Mormon scholars acknowledge the existence of either a "reformed Egyptian" language or a "reformed Egyptian" orthography as it has been described in Mormon belief. For instance, in 1966, John A. Wilson, professor of Egyptology at the University of Chicago, wrote, "From time to time there are allegations that picture writing has been found in America… In no case has a professional Egyptologist been able to recognize these characters as Egyptian hieroglyphs. From our standpoint there is no such language as 'reformed Egyptian'."[8] Klaus Baer, another Egyptologist at the University of Chicago, called the characters of the "Caractors" document nothing but "doodlings".[9] Anthropologist Michael D. Coe of Yale University, an expert in pre-Columbian Mesoamerican studies, has written, "Of all the peoples of the pre-Columbian New World, only the ancient Maya had a complete script."[10]

The "Caractors" document

Caractors document. Also known as the Anthon TranscriptIn 1828 Martin Harris, a farmer from Palmyra, New York received from Joseph Smith a copy of some of the "reformed Egyptian" characters from the gold plates in order to obtain scholarly opinion about their authenticity. Harris then presented the material to at least three scholars in the eastern United States, the most important being Charles Anthon, a noted classicist at Columbia College.[11]

In 1887, David Whitmer said that he had the piece of paper that Harris had showed to Anthon and the other scholars.[12] This short document is known as the Caractors document or the Anthon Transcript.

Anthon's account of meeting with Harris
Anthon believed "reformed Egyptian" to be a hoax:[13]

The whole story about my having pronounced the Mormonite inscription to be "reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics" is perfectly false. Some years ago, a plain, and apparently simple-hearted farmer, called upon me… Upon examining the paper in question, I soon came to the conclusion that it was all a trick, perhaps a hoax …On hearing this odd story, I changed my opinion about the paper, and, instead of viewing it any longer as a hoax upon the learned, I began to regard it as part of a scheme to cheat the farmer of his money, and I communicated my suspicions to him, warning him to beware of rogues. He requested an opinion from me in writing, which of course I declined giving, and he then took his leave carrying the paper with him. This paper was in fact a singular scrawl. It consisted of all kinds of crooked characters disposed in columns, and had evidently been prepared by some person who had before him at the time a book containing various alphabets. Greek and Hebrew letters, crosses and flourishes, Roman letters inverted or placed sideways, were arranged in perpendicular columns and the whole ended in a rude delineation of a circle divided into various compartments, decked with various strange marks, and evidently copied after the Mexican Calendar given by Humboldt, but copied in such a way as not to betray the source whence it was derived… the paper contained any thing else but "Egyptian Hieroglyphics."[14]
Pomeroy Tucker, a contemporary of Harris and Joseph Smith, wrote that all the scholars whom Harris visited "were understood to have scouted the whole pretense as too depraved for serious attention, while commiserating the applicant as the victim of fanaticism or insanity."[15]

Because Anthon's description seems inconsistent with the "caractors document"—for instance, there is no "rude delineation of a circle"—the latter may be only a portion of the material that Harris took to Anthon. Of course, Anthon might also have erred in his description of document; but as Dan Vogel has noted, Anthon must have realized that the document might be produced and his error revealed.[16]

Harris' account of his meeting with Anthon

According to an account which Joseph Smith attributed to Harris,[17] Anthon "stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. [Harris] then showed him those which were not yet translated, and he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters." According to the same account, Anthon provided Harris with a certificate as to the veracity of the characters but tore it up after learning the characters were copied from a book said to have been delivered by an angel.[18] Regardless of whether or not Anthon ever wrote such a certificate, it is highly unlikely that Anthon would have been able to read Egyptian hieroglyphs in the late 1820s when Harris showed him the writing specimen because during this period Egyptology was in its infancy.[19] In any case, after his visit with Anthon, Harris was willing to mortgage his farm to publish the Book of Mormon, although it is also possible that his eagerness was based (as he boasted to his wife and sister-in-law) on his belief that the Book of Mormon would be a financial windfall.[20]

Hofmann Forgery

Hofmann forgery of "Reformed Egyptian" document, LDS archives. Note the columnar arrangement and the "Mexican Calendar" described by Anthon.During the early 1980s, forger Mark Hofmann sold alleged Mormon materials to Mormon investors and the LDS Church, including a sample of reformed Egyptian characters