The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[Quantum Windbag]

Far from it.....In fact, Moses crossed the dessert to free the Israelites from slavery. Then when he went to get the 10 commandments...God didn't even list "Thou shall not own slaves"

Tells alot about priorities

How does it do that?

I get it, because God doesn't meet your moral code and specifically mention something that is only a small portion of the law He handed down it must mean He fully supports it.

 

[hortysir]

The ten commandments have very little to do with the principles of freedom.

But the founding fathers all agreed freedom is a Christian tenet, and that freedom emanates from God.

No, freedom emanates from The United States Constitution.
In America that is.
The Founders RAN FROM the idea that man receives anything from God. They ran from the European countries that proclaimed a divine right from God to rule as monarchs.
The Founders sure were smart. In their day many nations ruled as nations of men and their God.
The United States of America is not a nation of men and their Gods. We are a nation of LAWS.
And God ain't mentioned in any law.
America, LOVE it or LEAVE IT.

Noooo.......
Our RIGHTS, that are listed in the Constitution, are God-given and entrusted to our government for protection by our elected officials.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

That is a very matter-of-fact-sounding statement, QW.
Can you provide scriptural evidence?

The word translated as slave in the Old Testament is more accurately translated as servant or hired worker. Israelites were forbidden to own have fellow Israelites as servants for more than 6 years, they had to be released from their contracts on the seventh year. (Exod 21:2-6, Deut 15:12-15, and Jer 34:14) Exceptions were made for foreign born and thier children (Lev 25:44-47) but they seemed to be more like serfs than slaves, and Israel was enjoined to treat them as quests and respect them. If they ever mistreated them, and the servant was injured as a result, they were freed from the contract. (Exod 21:26-27) They were also specifically prohibited from returning escaped slaves. (Deut 23:15-16)

Now, THAT is the kind of reply I'm used to from you!!

Thank you. Sometimes it feels like I am wasting my time going into detail, I will remember that some people expect it.

 

[rightwinger]

Slavery was actively discouraged in the Bible.

That is a very matter-of-fact-sounding statement, QW.
Can you provide scriptural evidence?

The word translated as slave in the Old Testament is more accurately translated as servant or hired worker. Israelites were forbidden to own have fellow Israelites as servants for more than 6 years, they had to be released from their contracts on the seventh year. (Exod 21:2-6, Deut 15:12-15, and Jer 34:14) Exceptions were made for foreign born and thier children (Lev 25:44-47) but they seemed to be more like serfs than slaves, and Israel was enjoined to treat them as quests and respect them. If they ever mistreated them, and the servant was injured as a result, they were freed from the contract. (Exod 21:26-27) They were also specifically prohibited from returning escaped slaves. (Deut 23:15-16)

Revisionist history

What was their pay?
Were their children "servants" too
Were they beaten?
Were they free to come and go when they were not working?

otherwise.....slaves

Why did Moses free them if they were just "servants"?

 

[LibocalypseNow]

You're right. The U.S. was actually founded upon Judeo-Christian principles. Judeo-Christianity is the correct description. I assure you our Founding fathers were not Socialist/Progressive Atheists. That's just a Socialist/Progressive nutter fantasy. I suggest less Al Jazeera,HuffPo,and Moveon.org and more reading about history for those nutters.

 

[rightwinger]

Far from it.....In fact, Moses crossed the dessert to free the Israelites from slavery. Then when he went to get the 10 commandments...God didn't even list "Thou shall not own slaves"

Tells alot about priorities

How does it do that?

I get it, because God doesn't meet your moral code and specifically mention something that is only a small portion of the law He handed down it must mean He fully supports it.

I like God....seems like a great guy (except for that flood genocide)

But when he handed down the 10 Comandments he was not having his best day. I'm just a regular sewer worker and I could have come up with a better list.

Like I said....he missed the boat on slavery, no mention of assault, honor thy father and mother but no requirement to honor your children (they are more vulnerable), nothing about protecting the environment, arson, war

God was OK with his "I am the lord, thy God" but he could have left it at that. Wasting vital commandments on graven images, the sabbath, thy name in vane is a little overboard

And whats with the coveting?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The ten commandments have very little to do with the principles of freedom.

But the founding fathers all agreed freedom is a Christian tenet, and that freedom emanates from God.

No, freedom emanates from The United States Constitution.
In America that is.
The Founders RAN FROM the idea that man receives anything from God. They ran from the European countries that proclaimed a divine right from God to rule as monarchs.
The Founders sure were smart. In their day many nations ruled as nations of men and their God.
The United States of America is not a nation of men and their Gods. We are a nation of LAWS.
And God ain't mentioned in any law.
America, LOVE it or LEAVE IT.

Noooo.......
Our RIGHTS, that are listed in the Constitution, are God-given and entrusted to our government for protection by our elected officials.

I think the truth actually lies somewhere in the middle.

The Founders fully believed that our rights emanated from Providence, from our Creator. They were also fully aware of what it meant to have that concept codified into law as they were familiar with both the Church of England and the Holy Roman Empire. They wanted to build a wall between the church and the state to prevent the free expression of religion in all its forms, which always happens when a government endorses one religion over another. They knew that must be prevented if at all possible, and they were right about that.

 

[bodecea]

The ten commandments have very little to do with the principles of freedom.

But the founding fathers all agreed freedom is a Christian tenet, and that freedom emanates from God.

No, freedom emanates from The United States Constitution.
In America that is.
The Founders RAN FROM the idea that man receives anything from God. They ran from the European countries that proclaimed a divine right from God to rule as monarchs.
The Founders sure were smart. In their day many nations ruled as nations of men and their God.
The United States of America is not a nation of men and their Gods. We are a nation of LAWS.
And God ain't mentioned in any law.
America, LOVE it or LEAVE IT.

Noooo.......
Our RIGHTS, that are listed in the Constitution, are God-given and entrusted to our government for protection by our elected officials.

So...if we don't believe in God we don't get them?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Revisionist history

You are the one claiming the Bible says something I have proved it does not. Who exactly is engaging in the revision?

What was their pay?

I don't know.

Were their children "servants" too

Already covered

Were they beaten?

That was illegal under the law in Deuteronomy.

Were they free to come and go when they were not working?

Apparently, since they could not be forced back if they left. I will have to admit that is just a guess though.

Why did Moses free them if they were just "servants"?

Historians believe that Egypt viewed the Hebrews as mercenaries, not slaves. Perhaps the reason that Egypt did not want to let them go is that they were much to effective as a fighting force to allow to form their own country. As I wasn't there I cannot answer that question definitively. Are you going to try to claim you were there?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Far from it.....In fact, Moses crossed the dessert to free the Israelites from slavery. Then when he went to get the 10 commandments...God didn't even list "Thou shall not own slaves"

Tells alot about priorities

How does it do that?

I get it, because God doesn't meet your moral code and specifically mention something that is only a small portion of the law He handed down it must mean He fully supports it.

I like God....seems like a great guy (except for that flood genocide)

But when he handed down the 10 Comandments he was not having his best day. I'm just a regular sewer worker and I could have come up with a better list.

Like I said....he missed the boat on slavery, no mention of assault, honor thy father and mother but no requirement to honor your children (they are more vulnerable), nothing about protecting the environment, arson, war

God was OK with his "I am the lord, thy God" but he could have left it at that. Wasting vital commandments on graven images, the sabbath, thy name in vane is a little overboard

And whats with the coveting?

I am not God's complaint department, nor am I here to defend Him from anything, or prove He exists. If you want any of that you will have to find someone who claims to be authorized. I would recommend Nuebarth for that, but he is such an idiot I would have to jump in and correct him if you did.

Seriously, I don't have all the answers, and do not claim to. There was a time when I though I had those answers, but that was a long time ago.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

No, freedom emanates from The United States Constitution.
In America that is.
The Founders RAN FROM the idea that man receives anything from God. They ran from the European countries that proclaimed a divine right from God to rule as monarchs.
The Founders sure were smart. In their day many nations ruled as nations of men and their God.
The United States of America is not a nation of men and their Gods. We are a nation of LAWS.
And God ain't mentioned in any law.
America, LOVE it or LEAVE IT.

Noooo.......
Our RIGHTS, that are listed in the Constitution, are God-given and entrusted to our government for protection by our elected officials.

So...if we don't believe in God we don't get them?

Not the way it works. You get them regardless.

 

[hortysir]

No, freedom emanates from The United States Constitution.
In America that is.
The Founders RAN FROM the idea that man receives anything from God. They ran from the European countries that proclaimed a divine right from God to rule as monarchs.
The Founders sure were smart. In their day many nations ruled as nations of men and their God.
The United States of America is not a nation of men and their Gods. We are a nation of LAWS.
And God ain't mentioned in any law.
America, LOVE it or LEAVE IT.

Noooo.......
Our RIGHTS, that are listed in the Constitution, are God-given and entrusted to our government for protection by our elected officials.

So...if we don't believe in God we don't get them?

Birth
We all have the same rights, regardless of where/whom they were derived
(I haven't seen any in the Cabella's catalog, so I'm pretty sure that ain't where they come from )

 

[LibocalypseNow]

I think we can all agree that practicing Christians did create the greatest country in the world no? To bash Christians is to bash your own great nation. If those Christians were so awful,how could they create such a wonderful nation? The fact is all of our Founding Fathers were practicing Christians. This just can't be disputed. To try and claim that their Christian beliefs and values had absolutely nothing to do with their founding of our great nation,is just dishonest and delusional. They believed in separation of Church & State but they were far from being Atheists. This whole debate is pointless. All of our Founding Fathers were Christians and did create this wonderful nation. Personally i think God did have something to do with it. We were and still are a very unique nation. Divine guidance? Well i'll let you decide that for yourself.

 

[bodecea]

Noooo.......
Our RIGHTS, that are listed in the Constitution, are God-given and entrusted to our government for protection by our elected officials.

So...if we don't believe in God we don't get them?

Not the way it works. You get them regardless.

Then, they aren't god given...they just....are.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The word translated as slave in the Old Testament is more accurately translated as servant or hired worker. Israelites were forbidden to own have fellow Israelites as servants for more than 6 years, they had to be released from their contracts on the seventh year. (Exod 21:2-6, Deut 15:12-15, and Jer 34:14) Exceptions were made for foreign born and thier children (Lev 25:44-47) but they seemed to be more like serfs than slaves, and Israel was enjoined to treat them as quests and respect them. If they ever mistreated them, and the servant was injured as a result, they were freed from the contract. (Exod 21:26-27) They were also specifically prohibited from returning escaped slaves. (Deut 23:15-16)

Now, THAT is the kind of reply I'm used to from you!!

Thank you. Sometimes it feels like I am wasting my time going into detail, I will remember that some people expect it.

I'm impressed.

 

[AllieBaba]

That is a very matter-of-fact-sounding statement, QW.
Can you provide scriptural evidence?

The word translated as slave in the Old Testament is more accurately translated as servant or hired worker. Israelites were forbidden to own have fellow Israelites as servants for more than 6 years, they had to be released from their contracts on the seventh year. (Exod 21:2-6, Deut 15:12-15, and Jer 34:14) Exceptions were made for foreign born and thier children (Lev 25:44-47) but they seemed to be more like serfs than slaves, and Israel was enjoined to treat them as quests and respect them. If they ever mistreated them, and the servant was injured as a result, they were freed from the contract. (Exod 21:26-27) They were also specifically prohibited from returning escaped slaves. (Deut 23:15-16)

Revisionist history

What was their pay?
Were their children "servants" too
Were they beaten?
Were they free to come and go when they were not working?

otherwise.....slaves

Why did Moses free them if they were just "servants"?

They were paid, a set amount by law, and they were freed by law every so many years (7?).

The children of Hebrew slaves were not necessarily slaves themselves.

Yes they were beaten. Serfs were also beaten and were not called slaves. Employees in sweatshops were beaten. People are beaten today. That is not how slave status is determined.

Moses freed them because they had been promised their own land and country, by God. Moses was not thrilled with his mission, by the way. He stuttered and didn't want to be responsible for what he knew would be a massive exodus. He knew people would die, and they did. Including his own wife and their children (when their own people trampled them in the chaos that occurred around the golden calf episode). But God spoke to Moses and told him it was time. Moses argued and God showed him the error of his ways (then killed his wife and children). Many people, including Aaron, considered it nothing less than suicide, and felt comfortable with their circumstances.

If the Pharoah had dared, he would have used the military to subdue the slaves. But he didn't dare because slaves had rights, and there were a LOT of them. They were well educated, they were well connected and intertwined with mainstream Egyptian (and world) society. They were Egyptian themselves, except that they were Hebrew as well. Moses himself was raised in Pharoah's household, and enjoyed all the benefits of being a member of the Egyptian royal and (to Egyptians, at any rate) holy family.

I hate it when ignorami try to simplify and dumb down history.

 

[rikules]

Why are Liberals so bound and determined to prove America was not founded on Religious Ideal at all. We have complete religious freedom in this country. What is the big deal if some of our core beliefs, Like the idea that all men are created equal(under god or not) and that you should not kill, or steal or Rape your own kids, Where inspired by Judeo/Christian Core values or not. They are still good Ideas are they not?

All men were not created equal in the Bible....slavery was openly accepted. As a matter of fact, when God passed down the Ten Comandments, he intentionally left slavery off the list

We do not need Christian (Jewish actually) values to know that killing, stealing and raping children is wrong. All societies have these values

If we are founded on Christian values, why are laws against having other gods, idol worshipping, keeping holy the sabbath, using the lords name in vain and coveting all considered to be unconstitutional?

Slavery was actively discouraged in the Bible.

"Slavery was actively discouraged in the Bible. "

I find it rather frightening that a person could base his political convictions SO STRONGLY on something he knows so little about!

site follows;

Biblical Verses Condoning and Regulating Slavery

The fact that slavery exists in the Bible is no secret. There are laws regulating its practice; how to buy and sell slaves, what to do if they commit a crime, the degree to which they can be beat, and laws concerning sexual activity with female slaves. Some of these verses are included here. The point here is not to comment on the existence of slavery or the Bible's laws regarding it. My intention is more to increase awareness of its presence in Biblical text. A slave in the Bible (or in Greek, Roman, Islamic, or Egyptian history for that matter) is not the same as a slave in the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade. This new form of plantation slavery was unique in history in that it was based solely on race.

Regarding the emancipation of slaves, Jewish slaves were to be freed after six years, except those who were born by the female slave. Female slaves, sold into slavery by their fathers, would be slaves forever. And the cost of freeing a slave was calculated using the number of years to the next Jubilee Year, ranging between 1 and 50 years.

Exodus 21:1-4 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself."
Deuteronomy 15:12-18 "And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee.And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty: Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the Lord thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him."
Exodus 21:7 "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."

Leviticus 25:44-46 "Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour."
Also, in Leviticus, a distinction is made between the hired servant and the slave.

Leviticus 25:48-53 "After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him: Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself. And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he was sold to him unto the year of jubilee: and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years, according to the time of an hired servant shall it be with him."

=====================


"Why are Liberals so bound and determined to prove America was not founded on Religious Ideal at all."

because so many conservative christians are bound and determined to prove that America WAS founded on christian religious principles so that they can have America declared a CHRISTIAN NATION and then enact the bible and the 10 commandments as LAWS OF THE LAND.

these people need to be stopped.



" We have complete religious freedom in this country."

right.
and that includes freedom FROM religion,




" What is the big deal if some of our core beliefs, Like the idea that all men are created equal(under god or not) and that you should not kill, or steal or Rape your own kids, Where inspired by Judeo/Christian Core values or not."
They are still good Ideas are they not?"


yes
they are good ideas

but they were not ORIGINALLY inspired by the christan bible

these concepts were initially developed by hammurabi (and written in his code long before the bible was written)
and the greeks

christians stole them from hammurabi and the greeks

breaking one of their own 10 commandments

most of which are unconstitutional, anyway

America was NEVER a christian nation

America is NOT a christian nation

and I pray to the gods that I don't believe in that it NEVER becomes one

 

[rikules]

The word translated as slave in the Old Testament is more accurately translated as servant or hired worker. Israelites were forbidden to own have fellow Israelites as servants for more than 6 years, they had to be released from their contracts on the seventh year. (Exod 21:2-6, Deut 15:12-15, and Jer 34:14) Exceptions were made for foreign born and thier children (Lev 25:44-47) but they seemed to be more like serfs than slaves, and Israel was enjoined to treat them as quests and respect them. If they ever mistreated them, and the servant was injured as a result, they were freed from the contract. (Exod 21:26-27) They were also specifically prohibited from returning escaped slaves. (Deut 23:15-16)

Revisionist history

What was their pay?
Were their children "servants" too
Were they beaten?
Were they free to come and go when they were not working?

otherwise.....slaves

Why did Moses free them if they were just "servants"?

They were paid, a set amount by law, and they were freed by law every so many years (7?).

The children of Hebrew slaves were not necessarily slaves themselves.

Yes they were beaten. Serfs were also beaten and were not called slaves. Employees in sweatshops were beaten. People are beaten today. That is not how slave status is determined.

Moses freed them because they had been promised their own land and country, by God. Moses was not thrilled with his mission, by the way. He stuttered and didn't want to be responsible for what he knew would be a massive exodus. He knew people would die, and they did. Including his own wife and their children (when their own people trampled them in the chaos that occurred around the golden calf episode). But God spoke to Moses and told him it was time. Moses argued and God showed him the error of his ways (then killed his wife and children). Many people, including Aaron, considered it nothing less than suicide, and felt comfortable with their circumstances.

If the Pharoah had dared, he would have used the military to subdue the slaves. But he didn't dare because slaves had rights, and there were a LOT of them. They were well educated, they were well connected and intertwined with mainstream Egyptian (and world) society. They were Egyptian themselves, except that they were Hebrew as well. Moses himself was raised in Pharoah's household, and enjoyed all the benefits of being a member of the Egyptian royal and (to Egyptians, at any rate) holy family.

I hate it when ignorami try to simplify and dumb down history.

"I hate it when ignorami try to simplify and dumb down history."

then perhaps you should stop doing it.

 

[rightwinger]

"I hate it when ignorami try to simplify and dumb down history."

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Sounds like slavery to me....I don't see her having much choice in the matter

 

[rightwinger]

Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

You can beat them within an inch of their lives...as long as they can get up after a couple of days it is OK