The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[Rodack]

Democrats despise Christians and Chistian US heritage


The European Athiest Homo party which demands your wages and labor despise this country with all their heart and soul




Democrats are evil

 

[Foxfyre]

You take God out of the Government you have a congress and government that has no morals or discipline which is what we have now.

When would you say that God was taken out of the Government...and let's run a comparison as to morals and discipline then and now....ok?

Bump.

Irrelevent to the topic at hand. I'm sure if you started a thread comparing the morality of today with the personal accountability, integrity and discipline of the Founders, there would certainly be some willing to discuss that. You might want to think about it before wading in, however, as you have not won too many debate points so far.

 

[JScott]

Democrats despise Christians and Chistian US heritage


The European Athiest Homo party which demands your wages and labor despise this country with all their heart and soul




Democrats are evil

Most democrats are Christian. Kind of nils your argument.

 

[JScott]

When would you say that God was taken out of the Government...and let's run a comparison as to morals and discipline then and now....ok?

Bump.

Irrelevent to the topic at hand. I'm sure if you started a thread comparing the morality of today with the personal accountability, integrity and discipline of the Founders, there would certainly be some willing to discuss that. You might want to think about it before wading in, however, as you have not won too many debate points so far.

The morality, personal accountability, integrity and discipline of yesterday was no different from today. You have some good eggs and you have some bad. Benedict Arnold comes to mind.

 

[Foxfyre]

Bump.

Irrelevent to the topic at hand. I'm sure if you started a thread comparing the morality of today with the personal accountability, integrity and discipline of the Founders, there would certainly be some willing to discuss that. You might want to think about it before wading in, however, as you have not won too many debate points so far.

The morality, personal accountability, integrity and discipline of yesterday was no different from today. You have some good eggs and you have some bad. Benedict Arnold comes to mind.

Again that might make a good discussion topic, but it is still irrelevent to the subject of this thread.

 

[JScott]

Irrelevent to the topic at hand. I'm sure if you started a thread comparing the morality of today with the personal accountability, integrity and discipline of the Founders, there would certainly be some willing to discuss that. You might want to think about it before wading in, however, as you have not won too many debate points so far.

The morality, personal accountability, integrity and discipline of yesterday was no different from today. You have some good eggs and you have some bad. Benedict Arnold comes to mind.

Again that might make a good discussion topic, but it is still irrelevent to the subject of this thread.

95% of this country is Christian. How is God not in the picture?

 

[Obamerican]

The morality, personal accountability, integrity and discipline of yesterday was no different from today. You have some good eggs and you have some bad. Benedict Arnold comes to mind.

Again that might make a good discussion topic, but it is still irrelevent to the subject of this thread.

95% of this country is Christian. How is God not in the picture?

Link for that 95% please..........................

 

[JScott]

Again that might make a good discussion topic, but it is still irrelevent to the subject of this thread.

95% of this country is Christian. How is God not in the picture?

Link for that 95% please..........................

My bad, I was just using standard quotes from Christians on this site. Here is the most recent survey-

According to a 2007 survey, 78.4% of adults identified themselves as Christian,[148] down from 86.4% in 1990.
United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Foxfyre]

that's where you step away from reality....that is not a Christian concept.

The words in the Preamble "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness" are editorialized from Blackstone's Commentaries which would be found in just about every educated colonial home. (Blackstone used "Property" which Jefferson amended to "Pursuit of Happiness" from Ecclesiastes 3:13 knowing that all educated colonialists would make the proper connection.)

The concept that such unalienable rights (Franklin's word rather than inalienable, but meaning the same thing), are from God however, was right out of the Christian Bible. Some examples:

The Law of Nature - Romans 2:14-16
The Creator is the Author of life - Genesis 2:7
God, not government, grants liberty - Galatians 5:1

Ignoring Locke, are we?

John Locke's concepts of natural law and social contract are usually required reading in any good basic economics course. However John Locke was not a Founding Father, he died before I believe all of the Founding Fathers were born, he was never an American or in America, so yeah, for the purposes of this thread topic, I am pretty well ignoring him.

If you do wish to discuss natural law, social contract, or theories of economics on another thread though, I'm pretty sure he would come up sooner or later.

 

[bodecea]

Democrats despise Christians and Chistian US heritage


The European Athiest Homo party which demands your wages and labor despise this country with all their heart and soul




Democrats are evil

Ah...a believer that Our Country was Founded on Christian tenets. Tell us more, sir.

 

[bodecea]

The words in the Preamble "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness" are editorialized from Blackstone's Commentaries which would be found in just about every educated colonial home. (Blackstone used "Property" which Jefferson amended to "Pursuit of Happiness" from Ecclesiastes 3:13 knowing that all educated colonialists would make the proper connection.)

The concept that such unalienable rights (Franklin's word rather than inalienable, but meaning the same thing), are from God however, was right out of the Christian Bible. Some examples:

The Law of Nature - Romans 2:14-16
The Creator is the Author of life - Genesis 2:7
God, not government, grants liberty - Galatians 5:1

Ignoring Locke, are we?

John Locke's concepts of natural law and social contract are usually required reading in any good basic economics course. However John Locke was not a Founding Father, he died before I believe all of the Founding Fathers were born, he was never an American or in America, so yeah, for the purposes of this thread topic, I am pretty well ignoring him.

If you do wish to discuss natural law, social contract, or theories of economics on another thread though, I'm pretty sure he would come up sooner or later.

Are you inferring that John Locke was NOT the major influence on Jefferson when writing that phrase in the Dec of Ind?

 

[Foxfyre]

Ignoring Locke, are we?

John Locke's concepts of natural law and social contract are usually required reading in any good basic economics course. However John Locke was not a Founding Father, he died before I believe all of the Founding Fathers were born, he was never an American or in America, so yeah, for the purposes of this thread topic, I am pretty well ignoring him.

If you do wish to discuss natural law, social contract, or theories of economics on another thread though, I'm pretty sure he would come up sooner or later.

Are you inferring that John Locke was NOT the major influence on Jefferson when writing that phrase in the Dec of Ind?

No, I think Blackstone was the major influence when writing that phrase though the language itself was probably borrowed from Locke's Second Treatise. Locke was among many of the Renaissance/Enlightenment theorists and innovators that informed Jefferson and many others including David Hume, Adam Smith, Frances Hutcheson, David Ricardo, Voltaire, and Montesquieu to name a few. And the concept of natural/unalienable rights as coming from God was inspired by the Bible and those theologians who explored such a concept.

I can imagine that our Founders debated the theories of all these great thinkers at length.

They didn't teach you all this when you were getting that history degree?

 

[bodecea]

John Locke's concepts of natural law and social contract are usually required reading in any good basic economics course. However John Locke was not a Founding Father, he died before I believe all of the Founding Fathers were born, he was never an American or in America, so yeah, for the purposes of this thread topic, I am pretty well ignoring him.

If you do wish to discuss natural law, social contract, or theories of economics on another thread though, I'm pretty sure he would come up sooner or later.

Are you inferring that John Locke was NOT the major influence on Jefferson when writing that phrase in the Dec of Ind?

No, I think Blackstone was the major influence when writing that phrase though the language itself was probably borrowed from Locke's Second Treatise. Locke was among many of the Renaissance/Enlightenment theorists and innovators that informed Jefferson and many others including David Hume, Adam Smith, Frances Hutcheson, David Ricardo, Voltaire, and Montesquieu to name a few. And the concept of natural/unalienable rights as coming from God was inspired by the Bible and those theologians who explored such a concept.

I can imagine that our Founders debated the theories of all these great thinkers at length.

They didn't teach you all this when you were getting that history degree?

Good article on Locke's influence. Declaration of Independence - Give No Credit to Jefferson, They Were All Locke's Ideas - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

It's kind of funny watching you guys try so hard to make the founding of our country about Christian tenets and all...when the founders were running away from the Christian tenets they'd seen with the Puritans and Europe.

 

[Foxfyre]

Are you inferring that John Locke was NOT the major influence on Jefferson when writing that phrase in the Dec of Ind?

No, I think Blackstone was the major influence when writing that phrase though the language itself was probably borrowed from Locke's Second Treatise. Locke was among many of the Renaissance/Enlightenment theorists and innovators that informed Jefferson and many others including David Hume, Adam Smith, Frances Hutcheson, David Ricardo, Voltaire, and Montesquieu to name a few. And the concept of natural/unalienable rights as coming from God was inspired by the Bible and those theologians who explored such a concept.

I can imagine that our Founders debated the theories of all these great thinkers at length.

They didn't teach you all this when you were getting that history degree?

Good article on Locke's influence. Declaration of Independence - Give No Credit to Jefferson, They Were All Locke's Ideas - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

It's kind of funny watching you guys try so hard to make the founding of our country about Christian tenets and all...when the founders were running away from the Christian tenets they'd seen with the Puritans and Europe.

It's kind of funnier watching you use a post by a member on another board as some kind of authority. Do you never have an original thought of your own? Can you defend your argument with anything with that fancy history degree of yours?

 

[bodecea]

No, I think Blackstone was the major influence when writing that phrase though the language itself was probably borrowed from Locke's Second Treatise. Locke was among many of the Renaissance/Enlightenment theorists and innovators that informed Jefferson and many others including David Hume, Adam Smith, Frances Hutcheson, David Ricardo, Voltaire, and Montesquieu to name a few. And the concept of natural/unalienable rights as coming from God was inspired by the Bible and those theologians who explored such a concept.

I can imagine that our Founders debated the theories of all these great thinkers at length.

They didn't teach you all this when you were getting that history degree?

Good article on Locke's influence. Declaration of Independence - Give No Credit to Jefferson, They Were All Locke's Ideas - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

It's kind of funny watching you guys try so hard to make the founding of our country about Christian tenets and all...when the founders were running away from the Christian tenets they'd seen with the Puritans and Europe.

It's kind of funnier watching you use a post by a member on another board as some kind of authority. Do you never have an original thought of your own? Can you defend your argument with anything with that fancy history degree of yours?

I thought that person said it well rather than me taking the time...but apparently it hurt your feelings in some way.

So tell me, what was wrong with what the link said. I'm listening.

 

[Foxfyre]

Good article on Locke's influence. Declaration of Independence - Give No Credit to Jefferson, They Were All Locke's Ideas - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

It's kind of funny watching you guys try so hard to make the founding of our country about Christian tenets and all...when the founders were running away from the Christian tenets they'd seen with the Puritans and Europe.

It's kind of funnier watching you use a post by a member on another board as some kind of authority. Do you never have an original thought of your own? Can you defend your argument with anything with that fancy history degree of yours?

I thought that person said it well rather than me taking the time...but apparently it hurt your feelings in some way.

So tell me, what was wrong with what the link said. I'm listening.

I apologize for going ad hominem even by inference. I try not to do that and it was wrong of me to do it.

There's nothing wrong with your link. It's a link to a person on another board expressing an opinion. It is an opinion typical of those who do not want to give the Founders any credit for coming up with a brand new concept of government that was based on Christian principles. To leave the writings of John Locke or any other documents that guided the thought processes out of the whole would be short sighted. To give John Locke more credit than credit is due is either ignorance or intellectual dishonesty. I don't know the person who wrote the post you linked, so I have no way of knowing his/her intent or where s/he was going with that post.

John Locke gave us a lot to think about and he happens to be one of my heroes. But John Locke, in his wildest dreams, never envisioned a nation that the Founders gave us.

 

[Poli_Sigh]

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find
in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They
are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men,
women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been
burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this
coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to
support roguery and error all over the earth."

Thomas Jefferson

This statement from Thomas Jefferson** should have settled any nonsense about the founding fathers and their religion. Obviously it did not. In fact, I'd not be surprised to read that a movement was being undertaken in one or more zealous Christian States to remove any mention of Thomas Jefferson from all the history books.

** wrote the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights as well as figuring prominently in the penning of the Constitution.

People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them.

Dave Barry

 

[Foxfyre]

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find
in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They
are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men,
women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been
burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this
coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to
support roguery and error all over the earth."

Thomas Jefferson

This statement from Thomas Jefferson** should have settled any nonsense about the founding fathers and their religion. Obviously it did not. In fact, I'd not be surprised to read that a movement was being undertaken in one or more zealous Christian States to remove any mention of Thomas Jefferson from all the history books.

** wrote the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights as well as figuring prominently in the penning of the Constitution.

People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them.

Dave Barry

Okay, would you like to cite the source for your quotation that floats around almost all anti Christian sites? I have yet to see a single verifiable notation for it but have seen numerous comments from credible authorities that Jefferson never said or wrote the first sentence of your post. It has been manufactured by one desperate to make America other than a Christian nation and is eagerly embraced by those who share that anti-Christian perspective. I suppose it falls into the cateogory of repeating a lie so often that even smart people start believing it.

Jefferson deplored how humankind had corrupted and changed the Christian faith from what he believed Jesus gave us, but, while his own religious beliefs were unorthodox for his day, he did not, to the best of my knowledge, ever denounce Jesus of Nazareth or the Christian faith.

Let's use Jefferson's own words that rebut yours and include the source:

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

"But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc.) is a most desirable object." --- Thomas Jefferson letter to W. Short, Oct. 31, 1819

 

[bodecea]

It's kind of funnier watching you use a post by a member on another board as some kind of authority. Do you never have an original thought of your own? Can you defend your argument with anything with that fancy history degree of yours?

I thought that person said it well rather than me taking the time...but apparently it hurt your feelings in some way.

So tell me, what was wrong with what the link said. I'm listening.

I apologize for going ad hominem even by inference. I try not to do that and it was wrong of me to do it.

There's nothing wrong with your link. It's a link to a person on another board expressing an opinion. It is an opinion typical of those who do not want to give the Founders any credit for coming up with a brand new concept of government that was based on Christian principles. To leave the writings of John Locke or any other documents that guided the thought processes out of the whole would be short sighted. To give John Locke more credit than credit is due is either ignorance or intellectual dishonesty. I don't know the person who wrote the post you linked, so I have no way of knowing his/her intent or where s/he was going with that post.

John Locke gave us a lot to think about and he happens to be one of my heroes. But John Locke, in his wildest dreams, never envisioned a nation that the Founders gave us.

However, how can you ignore that Jefferson himself gave credit to John Locke?

 

[bodecea]

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find
in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They
are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men,
women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been
burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this
coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to
support roguery and error all over the earth."

Thomas Jefferson

This statement from Thomas Jefferson** should have settled any nonsense about the founding fathers and their religion. Obviously it did not. In fact, I'd not be surprised to read that a movement was being undertaken in one or more zealous Christian States to remove any mention of Thomas Jefferson from all the history books.

** wrote the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights as well as figuring prominently in the penning of the Constitution.

People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them.

Dave Barry

Jefferson did not write the Bill of Rights and was out of country for the Constitutional Convention. Perhaps you are thinking of his protege', James Madison.