The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[AllieBaba]

It's 11:30 here and I'm PST.

 

[Foxfyre]

And the Founders, learning from the abuses of a Christian based society....made sure that mistake was not repeated.

Nope. The Founders made sure that people like the Puritan and the Quakers would have complete freedom to form whatever sort of society they wished. From the Puritans we got the most rigid, punitive, intolerant bunch of people that existed in the country to that time. And yet no theocracy developed, and the Puritan theocracy phased itself out by its own choice. From the Quakers we got a gentler Puritan discipline, examples of religious tolerance, and the first abolitionist movement.

People who have their rights secured and who are then left alone to govern themselves, will form a far superior society than will one under the thumb of an authoritarian government.

The Founders gave us a nation in which the federal government would not interfere with the people's religion.

Exactly. Because they had seen exactly what happens when people try to model their government along what they consider acceptable religious lines.

I either am making the point poorly or you aren't quite grasping the point here I think.

The Founders gave us a federal government that would not interfere with the people's religion because they had seen what happens when government attempts to control the people's religious beliefs or deny the people the free exercise of their religion. The government they gave us, however, WAS modeled according to principles arising out of their Christian beliefs that unalienable rights come from God, and it was a government that they knew would work only if those who governed were a moral people who lived by those Christian convictions..

That does not infer that all do not fall short of the ideal now and then and it does not infer that some other than Christian would not hold the same convictions. But they knew it would be mostly Christians or others who understood and accepted the concept of unalienable rights that would make it work.

As soon as we have more people who reject the Christian concept of unalienable rights than those who embrace it, the United States of America as we have known it will no longer be the great nation they gave us. I think we are in serious danger of that now.

 

[AllieBaba]

That's exactly what one of the FF said. I think it was Jefferson.

 

[peach174]

Yep we certainly are. I totally agree with you Foxfyre.
That's why we have so many going into these fast food restaurants trashing them and stealing things and beating up people. Also people walking past people without helping in any way at all.

 

[Spoonman]

Nope. The Founders made sure that people like the Puritan and the Quakers would have complete freedom to form whatever sort of society they wished. From the Puritans we got the most rigid, punitive, intolerant bunch of people that existed in the country to that time. And yet no theocracy developed, and the Puritan theocracy phased itself out by its own choice. From the Quakers we got a gentler Puritan discipline, examples of religious tolerance, and the first abolitionist movement.

People who have their rights secured and who are then left alone to govern themselves, will form a far superior society than will one under the thumb of an authoritarian government.

The Founders gave us a nation in which the federal government would not interfere with the people's religion.

Exactly. Because they had seen exactly what happens when people try to model their government along what they consider acceptable religious lines.

I either am making the point poorly or you aren't quite grasping the point here I think.

The Founders gave us a federal government that would not interfere with the people's religion because they had seen what happens when government attempts to control the people's religious beliefs or deny the people the free exercise of their religion. The government they gave us, however, WAS modeled according to principles arising out of their Christian beliefs that unalienable rights come from God, and it was a government that they knew would work only if those who governed were a moral people who lived by those Christian convictions..

That does not infer that all do not fall short of the ideal now and then and it does not infer that some other than Christian would not hold the same convictions. But they knew it would be mostly Christians or others who understood and accepted the concept of unalienable rights that would make it work.

As soon as we have more people who reject the Christian concept of unalienable rights than those who embrace it, the United States of America as we have known it will no longer be the great nation they gave us. I think we are in serious danger of that now.

I think she's trying to spin it.

The founding fathers were very explicit. They set up government so government could not manipulate religion. Where religion was concerned, the ytook government out of the picture. - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; there is no ambiguity there. Congress shall make no law. Government is out of how religion operates.


That's fact one. However, the other point is was our government set up on christian tenants, yes it was. They are all over the place. The diference is, the government is not run by religion.

 

[Spoonman]

Yep we certainly are. I totally agree with you Foxfyre.
That's why we have so many going into these fast food restaurants trashing them and stealing things and beating up people. Also people walking past people without helping in any way at all.

our morals are shot. anyone who is like most of us. middle age, can tell you moral values of today are totally diferent for the 50's and 60's. we live in a different world. a life has no value to many. people will stand by and watch a young girl get raped and video tape the damn thing to put on youtube. And it is becasue we have pushed God and as a result morals out of our lives. Let me rephrase, we've legislated religion out of our lives. The congess who shall make no laws regarding has been given an open door to prohibit. And that's just what they've done

 

[peach174]

Yep we certainly are. I totally agree with you Foxfyre.
That's why we have so many going into these fast food restaurants trashing them and stealing things and beating up people. Also people walking past people without helping in any way at all.

our morals are shot. anyone who is like most of us. middle age, can tell you moral values of today are totally diferent for the 50's and 60's. we live in a different world. a life has no value to many. people will stand by and watch a young girl get raped and video tape the damn thing to put on youtube. And it is becasue we have pushed God and as a result morals out of our lives. Let me rephrase, we've legislated religion out of our lives. The congess who shall make no laws regarding has been given an open door to prohibit. And that's just what they've done

Exactly- it reminds me of the song-Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got till its gone.

 

[peach174]

Exactly. Because they had seen exactly what happens when people try to model their government along what they consider acceptable religious lines.

I either am making the point poorly or you aren't quite grasping the point here I think.

The Founders gave us a federal government that would not interfere with the people's religion because they had seen what happens when government attempts to control the people's religious beliefs or deny the people the free exercise of their religion. The government they gave us, however, WAS modeled according to principles arising out of their Christian beliefs that unalienable rights come from God, and it was a government that they knew would work only if those who governed were a moral people who lived by those Christian convictions..

That does not infer that all do not fall short of the ideal now and then and it does not infer that some other than Christian would not hold the same convictions. But they knew it would be mostly Christians or others who understood and accepted the concept of unalienable rights that would make it work.

As soon as we have more people who reject the Christian concept of unalienable rights than those who embrace it, the United States of America as we have known it will no longer be the great nation they gave us. I think we are in serious danger of that now.

I think she's trying to spin it.

The founding fathers were very explicit. They set up government so government could not manipulate religion. Where religion was concerned, the ytook government out of the picture. - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; there is no ambiguity there. Congress shall make no law. Government is out of how religion operates.


That's fact one. However, the other point is was our government set up on christian tenants, yes it was. They are all over the place. The diference is, the government is not run by religion.

You take God out of the Government you have a congress and government that has no morals or discipline which is what we have now.

 

[Foxfyre]

I either am making the point poorly or you aren't quite grasping the point here I think.

The Founders gave us a federal government that would not interfere with the people's religion because they had seen what happens when government attempts to control the people's religious beliefs or deny the people the free exercise of their religion. The government they gave us, however, WAS modeled according to principles arising out of their Christian beliefs that unalienable rights come from God, and it was a government that they knew would work only if those who governed were a moral people who lived by those Christian convictions..

That does not infer that all do not fall short of the ideal now and then and it does not infer that some other than Christian would not hold the same convictions. But they knew it would be mostly Christians or others who understood and accepted the concept of unalienable rights that would make it work.

As soon as we have more people who reject the Christian concept of unalienable rights than those who embrace it, the United States of America as we have known it will no longer be the great nation they gave us. I think we are in serious danger of that now.

I think she's trying to spin it.

The founding fathers were very explicit. They set up government so government could not manipulate religion. Where religion was concerned, the ytook government out of the picture. - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; there is no ambiguity there. Congress shall make no law. Government is out of how religion operates.


That's fact one. However, the other point is was our government set up on christian tenants, yes it was. They are all over the place. The diference is, the government is not run by religion.

You take God out of the Government you have a congress and government that has no morals or discipline which is what we have now.

And you have an ever larger electorate who allow, even want them to be that way.

 

[del]

Nope. The Founders made sure that people like the Puritan and the Quakers would have complete freedom to form whatever sort of society they wished. From the Puritans we got the most rigid, punitive, intolerant bunch of people that existed in the country to that time. And yet no theocracy developed, and the Puritan theocracy phased itself out by its own choice. From the Quakers we got a gentler Puritan discipline, examples of religious tolerance, and the first abolitionist movement.

People who have their rights secured and who are then left alone to govern themselves, will form a far superior society than will one under the thumb of an authoritarian government.

The Founders gave us a nation in which the federal government would not interfere with the people's religion.

Exactly. Because they had seen exactly what happens when people try to model their government along what they consider acceptable religious lines.

I either am making the point poorly or you aren't quite grasping the point here I think.

The Founders gave us a federal government that would not interfere with the people's religion because they had seen what happens when government attempts to control the people's religious beliefs or deny the people the free exercise of their religion. The government they gave us, however, WAS modeled according to principles arising out of their Christian beliefs that unalienable rights come from God, and it was a government that they knew would work only if those who governed were a moral people who lived by those Christian convictions..

That does not infer that all do not fall short of the ideal now and then and it does not infer that some other than Christian would not hold the same convictions. But they knew it would be mostly Christians or others who understood and accepted the concept of unalienable rights that would make it work.

As soon as we have more people who reject the Christian concept of unalienable rights than those who embrace it, the United States of America as we have known it will no longer be the great nation they gave us. I think we are in serious danger of that now.

what makes it a christian concept?

 

[Foxfyre]

Exactly. Because they had seen exactly what happens when people try to model their government along what they consider acceptable religious lines.

I either am making the point poorly or you aren't quite grasping the point here I think.

The Founders gave us a federal government that would not interfere with the people's religion because they had seen what happens when government attempts to control the people's religious beliefs or deny the people the free exercise of their religion. The government they gave us, however, WAS modeled according to principles arising out of their Christian beliefs that unalienable rights come from God, and it was a government that they knew would work only if those who governed were a moral people who lived by those Christian convictions..

That does not infer that all do not fall short of the ideal now and then and it does not infer that some other than Christian would not hold the same convictions. But they knew it would be mostly Christians or others who understood and accepted the concept of unalienable rights that would make it work.

As soon as we have more people who reject the Christian concept of unalienable rights than those who embrace it, the United States of America as we have known it will no longer be the great nation they gave us. I think we are in serious danger of that now.

what makes it a christian concept?

So far as I know, nobody else other than Christians have studied the foundations and philosophies of their religious beliefs and come to a conclusion of unalienable rights that come from God. There are several religions that claim entitlement and blessings via their various diety or dieties, but I don't believe there is any other who promote a concept of God given unalienable rights.

 

[Spoonman]

Yep we certainly are. I totally agree with you Foxfyre.
That's why we have so many going into these fast food restaurants trashing them and stealing things and beating up people. Also people walking past people without helping in any way at all.

our morals are shot. anyone who is like most of us. middle age, can tell you moral values of today are totally diferent for the 50's and 60's. we live in a different world. a life has no value to many. people will stand by and watch a young girl get raped and video tape the damn thing to put on youtube. And it is becasue we have pushed God and as a result morals out of our lives. Let me rephrase, we've legislated religion out of our lives. The congess who shall make no laws regarding has been given an open door to prohibit. And that's just what they've done

Exactly- it reminds me of the song-Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got till its gone.

Yep, they paved our paradise and turned it into a no parking zone

 

[Spoonman]

I either am making the point poorly or you aren't quite grasping the point here I think.

The Founders gave us a federal government that would not interfere with the people's religion because they had seen what happens when government attempts to control the people's religious beliefs or deny the people the free exercise of their religion. The government they gave us, however, WAS modeled according to principles arising out of their Christian beliefs that unalienable rights come from God, and it was a government that they knew would work only if those who governed were a moral people who lived by those Christian convictions..

That does not infer that all do not fall short of the ideal now and then and it does not infer that some other than Christian would not hold the same convictions. But they knew it would be mostly Christians or others who understood and accepted the concept of unalienable rights that would make it work.

As soon as we have more people who reject the Christian concept of unalienable rights than those who embrace it, the United States of America as we have known it will no longer be the great nation they gave us. I think we are in serious danger of that now.

I think she's trying to spin it.

The founding fathers were very explicit. They set up government so government could not manipulate religion. Where religion was concerned, the ytook government out of the picture. - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; there is no ambiguity there. Congress shall make no law. Government is out of how religion operates.


That's fact one. However, the other point is was our government set up on christian tenants, yes it was. They are all over the place. The diference is, the government is not run by religion.

You take God out of the Government you have a congress and government that has no morals or discipline which is what we have now.

Actuallly i thought we had the keystone cops

 

[bodecea]

I either am making the point poorly or you aren't quite grasping the point here I think.

The Founders gave us a federal government that would not interfere with the people's religion because they had seen what happens when government attempts to control the people's religious beliefs or deny the people the free exercise of their religion. The government they gave us, however, WAS modeled according to principles arising out of their Christian beliefs that unalienable rights come from God, and it was a government that they knew would work only if those who governed were a moral people who lived by those Christian convictions..

That does not infer that all do not fall short of the ideal now and then and it does not infer that some other than Christian would not hold the same convictions. But they knew it would be mostly Christians or others who understood and accepted the concept of unalienable rights that would make it work.

As soon as we have more people who reject the Christian concept of unalienable rights than those who embrace it, the United States of America as we have known it will no longer be the great nation they gave us. I think we are in serious danger of that now.

I think she's trying to spin it.

The founding fathers were very explicit. They set up government so government could not manipulate religion. Where religion was concerned, the ytook government out of the picture. - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; there is no ambiguity there. Congress shall make no law. Government is out of how religion operates.


That's fact one. However, the other point is was our government set up on christian tenants, yes it was. They are all over the place. The diference is, the government is not run by religion.

You take God out of the Government you have a congress and government that has no morals or discipline which is what we have now.

When would you say that God was taken out of the Government...and let's run a comparison as to morals and discipline then and now....ok?

 

[bodecea]

Nope. The Founders made sure that people like the Puritan and the Quakers would have complete freedom to form whatever sort of society they wished. From the Puritans we got the most rigid, punitive, intolerant bunch of people that existed in the country to that time. And yet no theocracy developed, and the Puritan theocracy phased itself out by its own choice. From the Quakers we got a gentler Puritan discipline, examples of religious tolerance, and the first abolitionist movement.

People who have their rights secured and who are then left alone to govern themselves, will form a far superior society than will one under the thumb of an authoritarian government.

The Founders gave us a nation in which the federal government would not interfere with the people's religion.

Exactly. Because they had seen exactly what happens when people try to model their government along what they consider acceptable religious lines.

I either am making the point poorly or you aren't quite grasping the point here I think.

The Founders gave us a federal government that would not interfere with the people's religion because they had seen what happens when government attempts to control the people's religious beliefs or deny the people the free exercise of their religion. The government they gave us, however, WAS modeled according to principles arising out of their Christian beliefs that unalienable rights come from God,

that's where you step away from reality....that is not a Christian concept.

and it was a government that they knew would work only if those who governed were a moral people who lived by those Christian convictions..

That does not infer that all do not fall short of the ideal now and then and it does not infer that some other than Christian would not hold the same convictions. But they knew it would be mostly Christians or others who understood and accepted the concept of unalienable rights that would make it work.

As soon as we have more people who reject the Christian concept of unalienable rights than those who embrace it, the United States of America as we have known it will no longer be the great nation they gave us. I think we are in serious danger of that now.

 

[Spoonman]

I think she's trying to spin it.

The founding fathers were very explicit. They set up government so government could not manipulate religion. Where religion was concerned, the ytook government out of the picture. - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; there is no ambiguity there. Congress shall make no law. Government is out of how religion operates.


That's fact one. However, the other point is was our government set up on christian tenants, yes it was. They are all over the place. The diference is, the government is not run by religion.

You take God out of the Government you have a congress and government that has no morals or discipline which is what we have now.

When would you say that God was taken out of the Government...and let's run a comparison as to morals and discipline then and now....ok?

ok, but we;re going to have to leave the kennedy's out because they will throw off the curve

 

[Foxfyre]

Exactly. Because they had seen exactly what happens when people try to model their government along what they consider acceptable religious lines.

I either am making the point poorly or you aren't quite grasping the point here I think.

The Founders gave us a federal government that would not interfere with the people's religion because they had seen what happens when government attempts to control the people's religious beliefs or deny the people the free exercise of their religion. The government they gave us, however, WAS modeled according to principles arising out of their Christian beliefs that unalienable rights come from God,

that's where you step away from reality....that is not a Christian concept.

The words in the Preamble "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness" are editorialized from Blackstone's Commentaries which would be found in just about every educated colonial home. (Blackstone used "Property" which Jefferson amended to "Pursuit of Happiness" from Ecclesiastes 3:13 knowing that all educated colonialists would make the proper connection.)

The concept that such unalienable rights (Franklin's word rather than inalienable, but meaning the same thing), are from God however, was right out of the Christian Bible. Some examples:

The Law of Nature - Romans 2:14-16
The Creator is the Author of life - Genesis 2:7
God, not government, grants liberty - Galatians 5:1

 

[bodecea]

I either am making the point poorly or you aren't quite grasping the point here I think.

The Founders gave us a federal government that would not interfere with the people's religion because they had seen what happens when government attempts to control the people's religious beliefs or deny the people the free exercise of their religion. The government they gave us, however, WAS modeled according to principles arising out of their Christian beliefs that unalienable rights come from God,

that's where you step away from reality....that is not a Christian concept.

The words in the Preamble "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness" are editorialized from Blackstone's Commentaries which would be found in just about every educated colonial home. (Blackstone used "Property" which Jefferson amended to "Pursuit of Happiness" from Ecclesiastes 3:13 knowing that all educated colonialists would make the proper connection.)

The concept that such unalienable rights (Franklin's word rather than inalienable, but meaning the same thing), are from God however, was right out of the Christian Bible. Some examples:

The Law of Nature - Romans 2:14-16
The Creator is the Author of life - Genesis 2:7
God, not government, grants liberty - Galatians 5:1

Ignoring Locke, are we?

 

[bodecea]

I think she's trying to spin it.

The founding fathers were very explicit. They set up government so government could not manipulate religion. Where religion was concerned, the ytook government out of the picture. - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; there is no ambiguity there. Congress shall make no law. Government is out of how religion operates.


That's fact one. However, the other point is was our government set up on christian tenants, yes it was. They are all over the place. The diference is, the government is not run by religion.

You take God out of the Government you have a congress and government that has no morals or discipline which is what we have now.

When would you say that God was taken out of the Government...and let's run a comparison as to morals and discipline then and now....ok?

Bump.

 

[JScott]

Yep we certainly are. I totally agree with you Foxfyre.
That's why we have so many going into these fast food restaurants trashing them and stealing things and beating up people. Also people walking past people without helping in any way at all.

This has been going on forever.