The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[Foxfyre]

I thought that person said it well rather than me taking the time...but apparently it hurt your feelings in some way.

So tell me, what was wrong with what the link said. I'm listening.

I apologize for going ad hominem even by inference. I try not to do that and it was wrong of me to do it.

There's nothing wrong with your link. It's a link to a person on another board expressing an opinion. It is an opinion typical of those who do not want to give the Founders any credit for coming up with a brand new concept of government that was based on Christian principles. To leave the writings of John Locke or any other documents that guided the thought processes out of the whole would be short sighted. To give John Locke more credit than credit is due is either ignorance or intellectual dishonesty. I don't know the person who wrote the post you linked, so I have no way of knowing his/her intent or where s/he was going with that post.

John Locke gave us a lot to think about and he happens to be one of my heroes. But John Locke, in his wildest dreams, never envisioned a nation that the Founders gave us.

However, how can you ignore that Jefferson himself gave credit to John Locke?

How can you ignore that I didn't ignore that Jefferson himself gave credit to John Locke as well as a whole lot of other people?

 

[bodecea]

I apologize for going ad hominem even by inference. I try not to do that and it was wrong of me to do it.

There's nothing wrong with your link. It's a link to a person on another board expressing an opinion. It is an opinion typical of those who do not want to give the Founders any credit for coming up with a brand new concept of government that was based on Christian principles. To leave the writings of John Locke or any other documents that guided the thought processes out of the whole would be short sighted. To give John Locke more credit than credit is due is either ignorance or intellectual dishonesty. I don't know the person who wrote the post you linked, so I have no way of knowing his/her intent or where s/he was going with that post.

John Locke gave us a lot to think about and he happens to be one of my heroes. But John Locke, in his wildest dreams, never envisioned a nation that the Founders gave us.

However, how can you ignore that Jefferson himself gave credit to John Locke?

How can you ignore that I didn't ignore that Jefferson himself gave credit to John Locke as well as a whole lot of other people?

Well then, we are at an impasse....which brings me back to the adage, "Actions Speak Louder than Words" as to the founding and running of our country.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

With the 2 fucking morons in the White House Dems REALLY want to discuss intelligence?

Obama dosent know how many states there are in the USA rounded to he nearest 10, doesnt know what Memorial Day is, doesn't know how to pledge allegiance, doesn't know what makes America great and has a VP who if he was a fucking moron it would double his IQ

 

[TheBrain]

However, how can you ignore that Jefferson himself gave credit to John Locke?

How can you ignore that I didn't ignore that Jefferson himself gave credit to John Locke as well as a whole lot of other people?

Well then, we are at an impasse....which brings me back to the adage, "Actions Speak Louder than Words" as to the founding and running of our country.

Still haven't met the Lord? Damn, I wish I could help hasten that meeting. Oh what a glorious day it will be. I'm going to ask my church to pray for you tomorrow.

 

[Foxfyre]

However, how can you ignore that Jefferson himself gave credit to John Locke?

How can you ignore that I didn't ignore that Jefferson himself gave credit to John Locke as well as a whole lot of other people?

Well then, we are at an impasse....which brings me back to the adage, "Actions Speak Louder than Words" as to the founding and running of our country.

That's right. The Founders used a Christian principle that unalienable rights come from God and therefore are inviolate and gave us the most free, most innovative, most prosperous, most productive nation the world had ever known. They took twelve years, including a long bloody war, to win our freedom and give us the Constitution that would secure those rights when administered by a moral and religious people.

That was the action that backs up the words.

There wasn't a perfect man or saint among them, but they were all good, decent men with a shared vision and commitment. And overall they did a pretty good job of living by their convictions. The great experiment was successful beyond ever their vision.

For the last hundred years both Democrats and Republcans have been whittling away at fundamental principles they gave us. We haven't lost it all yet, but if educated and committed people don't act to stop that erosion, we will lose the country as we have known it.

 

[YaMutha]

Couldn't have said it better myself

 

[bodecea]

How can you ignore that I didn't ignore that Jefferson himself gave credit to John Locke as well as a whole lot of other people?

Well then, we are at an impasse....which brings me back to the adage, "Actions Speak Louder than Words" as to the founding and running of our country.

Still haven't met the Lord? Damn, I wish I could help hasten that meeting. Oh what a glorious day it will be. I'm going to ask my church to pray for you tomorrow.

Bless your heart, hello.

 

[bodecea]

How can you ignore that I didn't ignore that Jefferson himself gave credit to John Locke as well as a whole lot of other people?

Well then, we are at an impasse....which brings me back to the adage, "Actions Speak Louder than Words" as to the founding and running of our country.

That's right. The Founders used a Christian principle that unalienable rights come from God and therefore are inviolate and gave us the most free, most innovative, most prosperous, most productive nation the world had ever known. They took twelve years, including a long bloody war, to win our freedom and give us the Constitution that would secure those rights when administered by a moral and religious people.

That was the action that backs up the words.

There wasn't a perfect man or saint among them, but they were all good, decent men with a shared vision and commitment. And overall they did a pretty good job of living by their convictions. The great experiment was successful beyond ever their vision.

For the last hundred years both Democrats and Republcans have been whittling away at fundamental principles they gave us. We haven't lost it all yet, but if educated and committed people don't act to stop that erosion, we will lose the country as we have known it.

So...a hundred years, huh...our Country was run on those Christian principles until about 100 years ago? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Foxfyre]

Well then, we are at an impasse....which brings me back to the adage, "Actions Speak Louder than Words" as to the founding and running of our country.

That's right. The Founders used a Christian principle that unalienable rights come from God and therefore are inviolate and gave us the most free, most innovative, most prosperous, most productive nation the world had ever known. They took twelve years, including a long bloody war, to win our freedom and give us the Constitution that would secure those rights when administered by a moral and religious people.

That was the action that backs up the words.

There wasn't a perfect man or saint among them, but they were all good, decent men with a shared vision and commitment. And overall they did a pretty good job of living by their convictions. The great experiment was successful beyond ever their vision.

For the last hundred years both Democrats and Republcans have been whittling away at fundamental principles they gave us. We haven't lost it all yet, but if educated and committed people don't act to stop that erosion, we will lose the country as we have known it.

So...a hundred years, huh...our Country was run on those Christian principles until about 100 years ago? Is that what you are saying?

No dear. I haven't said anything like that, but we've come pretty well full circle in this argument and it seems you don't have any argument of any kind of your own to make and will continue to reword and ask the same questions over and over. And I'm beginning to find that really boring. So I am unlikely to respond to this routine further.

Hope all is enjoying the long weekend. I'm headed for my pillow and a good movie. Good night.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Hi, Uncensored. I certainly appreciate you making this about me. It really strengthens your side of the discussion....

Nothing can "strengthen your side," bod - you lost this debate 3 weeks ago.

 

[Uncensored2008]

what makes it a christian concept?

The FACT that they arose from the "free agency" concepts of Luther and Calvin.

Why do you ask?

 

[peach174]

Hi, Uncensored. I certainly appreciate you making this about me. It really strengthens your side of the discussion....

Nothing can "strengthen your side," bod - you lost this debate 3 weeks ago.

and with a whistle too !

 

[Uncensored2008]

that's where you step away from reality....that is not a Christian concept.

Too bad you didn't expend the effort to gain some semblance of education. Individual liberty and the concept that man is responsible directly to God, not to Popes, Kings or Community Organizers comes directly from the Protestant reformers.

 

[bodecea]

Hi, Uncensored. I certainly appreciate you making this about me. It really strengthens your side of the discussion....

Nothing can "strengthen your side," bod - you lost this debate 3 weeks ago.

How so....? The United States was and still is a secular-ly founded country.

 

[bodecea]

that's where you step away from reality....that is not a Christian concept.

Too bad you didn't expend the effort to gain some semblance of education. Individual liberty and the concept that man is responsible directly to God, not to Popes, Kings or Community Organizers comes directly from the Protestant reformers.

Our rights are natural. We are born with them like we are born with eyes and ears and arms and legs. If you want to believe in a god that gave them to you...fine. If you want to believe in more than one god who gave them to you...fine. But, you do not have the right to say that we all MUST believe that rights were given by YOUR god. Sorry. It doesn't work that way....and the Founders knew that too...that's why they did not specify a Christian god at all in our governing documents.

Feel free to believe what YOU want...

 

[Uncensored2008]

How so....? The United States was and still is a secular-ly founded country.

It's amusing how 8atman forced you to admit that the nation was founded on Christian principles, you wait a couple of days, then pretend it never happened.

Look, I'm basically a bystander in this thread; but between 8atman, Foxfyre and Allie, you have been utterly and irrevocably defeated.

Your inability to grasp this makes the train-wreck of your arguments all the more entertaining!

 

[Uncensored2008]

Our rights are natural. We are born with them like we are born with eyes and ears and arms and legs.

Seems such a simple concept now, but like most things, you are reciting what you have learned. You learned what you did because illustrious thinkers detailed and defined the concepts in a way that has withstood centuries of challenge and debate. The thinkers in this case were primarily Luther and Calvin. "Free Agency" is a 100% Protestant, Christian idea.

Agnostics such as myself can easily see the wisdom and truth in these ideals, but I have the integrity and education to recognize and acknowledge the source of these ideas.

If you want to believe in a god that gave them to you...fine.

Again, you are either lost in irrelevancy or feebly attempting to employ a red herring.

The reformers changed the dynamic of how people interacted with and viewed the hierarchical structure of society. The nearly global precept prior to that, and outside of Protestant influence even to this day, is that man is born to a role. Peasants to toil and labor, nobility to rule. The Protestants offered the most radical idea that the world of man had seen, that each individual was beholden to no one, that we are responsible to and for ourselves. They viewed man as answerable to god, but that isn't necessary in the ideal that our rights are not granted by Kings or Community Organizers, we have no duty to serve any other man. We are free by our innate nature and those who seek to impose through force or coercion are oppressors.

 

[peach174]

that's where you step away from reality....that is not a Christian concept.

Too bad you didn't expend the effort to gain some semblance of education. Individual liberty and the concept that man is responsible directly to God, not to Popes, Kings or Community Organizers comes directly from the Protestant reformers.

Our rights are natural. We are born with them like we are born with eyes and ears and arms and legs. If you want to believe in a god that gave them to you...fine. If you want to believe in more than one god who gave them to you...fine. But, you do not have the right to say that we all MUST believe that rights were given by YOUR god. Sorry. It doesn't work that way....and the Founders knew that too...that's why they did not specify a Christian god at all in our governing documents.

Feel free to believe what YOU want...

Where was it said that you MUST believe (You have the freedom to be an atheist or any religion you want)

George Washington believed in a Christian God as did the majority did at that time. As do the majority of Americans now.


By the President of the United States of America, a Proclamation.

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor-- and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be-- That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks--for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation--for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war--for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed--for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted--for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

and also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions-- to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually--to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed--to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord--To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us--and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand at the City of New York the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789.

Go: Washington


Notice where it says - Great Lord and Ruler of Nations?
That is a reference to Jesus Christ who will return to rule all the Nations on Earth.

To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue. (Christianity)


Everyone has the freedom to worship or not worship.
The majority of this nation has been and still is Christian. But it does not mean that everyone in America MUST be Christian.


by the way -the above is a governing document.

 

[bodecea]

How so....? The United States was and still is a secular-ly founded country.

It's amusing how 8atman forced you to admit that the nation was founded on Christian principles, you wait a couple of days, then pretend it never happened.

Look, I'm basically a bystander in this thread; but between 8atman, Foxfyre and Allie, you have been utterly and irrevocably defeated.

Your inability to grasp this makes the train-wreck of your arguments all the more entertaining!

Forced me? Ah....that's how you use your religion is it....to FORCE people?

Sorry, but the Founders forced nobody. They left it very, very clear that one could believe that their rights came from whatever we believed in and we were not FORCED to believe that our rights came from a Christian god. Are you unhappy that they didn't FORCE people?

 

[bodecea]

Too bad you didn't expend the effort to gain some semblance of education. Individual liberty and the concept that man is responsible directly to God, not to Popes, Kings or Community Organizers comes directly from the Protestant reformers.

Our rights are natural. We are born with them like we are born with eyes and ears and arms and legs. If you want to believe in a god that gave them to you...fine. If you want to believe in more than one god who gave them to you...fine. But, you do not have the right to say that we all MUST believe that rights were given by YOUR god. Sorry. It doesn't work that way....and the Founders knew that too...that's why they did not specify a Christian god at all in our governing documents.

Feel free to believe what YOU want...

Where was it said that you MUST believe (You have the freedom to be an atheist or any religion you want)

George Washington believed in a Christian God as did the majority did at that time. As do the majority of Americans now.


By the President of the United States of America, a Proclamation.

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor-- and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be-- That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks--for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation--for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war--for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed--for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted--for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

and also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions-- to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually--to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed--to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord--To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us--and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand at the City of New York the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789.

Go: Washington


Notice where it says - Great Lord and Ruler of Nations?
That is a reference to Jesus Christ who will return to rule all the Nations on Earth.

To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue. (Christianity)


Everyone has the freedom to worship or not worship.
The majority of this nation has been and still is Christian. But it does not mean that everyone in America MUST be Christian.


by the way -the above is a governing document.

How nice. A Proclamation. How many laws did that proclamation create? How many ACTIONS by our government were taken because of that Proclamation?