The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[AllieBaba]

You're confusing us with the liberal fascists.

 

[rikules]

So you think God Will force himself on you.

Some Christians are trying to force God into American history. They completely forget the Constitutioni reads "We the people'. We are a secular country by law. It's hard to tell because the Christian right has practically made Christianity a litmus test for public office.

So you saying by law we have to be secular, not christian. by your own admission you want our country to be secularized.

Secularisation is the transformation of a society from close identification with religious values and institutions toward non-religious (or "irreligious") values and secular institutions.

"So you saying by law we have to be secular, not christian. by your own admission you want our country to be secularized."


do ALL conservative christians immediately leap to such erroeous and extreme conclusions?

by law our country should be secular

by law ALL citizens have a righ tto worship any god/religion they choose to believe in

by law NOBODY should be forced to accept or practice ANY religion

by law all of our laws should be based on reason and logic and NOT religious mumbo jumbo

yes
the COUNTRY should be secular
while each person can be whatever religion they want

 

[rikules]

You are assuming that if something does not contain God or Christ in its words that it cannot have Christian principles in it. This is not the case. Take for example C.S. Lewis’ The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. It does not mention Christ at all, yet there are definitely Christian principles in it.

I am not trying to say we are a Christian nation. A “Christian nation” has too many meanings/definitions that can be applied to it.

I would like for people to accept that Christianity played a significant role in the founding of America, by at least reading through the evidence contained in the books I provided. What do you or SkyDancer have to fear in agreeing to that?

"I would like for people to accept that Christianity played a significant role in the founding of America, by at least reading through the evidence contained in the books I provided. "


well

our founding fathers accept slavery
as does the christan god all through the bible

and women were 2nd class citizens with fewer rights
which was also in accordance with the lunacies of the christian god

so
I guess you make a good point

christianity (pro-slavery, anti-women) definitely played a role in the founding of America

Yeah, and liberals are the reason Jews were slaughtered.

You are just so pathetic.

"Yeah, and liberals are the reason Jews were slaughtered."

you are constantly 2 things on this board

1. a very annoying little pissant, vulgar, crude and ignorant

2. completely wrong about everything you believe

obviously liberals did NOT slaughter jews so I need not even addres that insane point

and as for pathetic

even for a 12 year old (or are you 13 yet?)
you are a pretty pathetic specimen of conservativism

you BELIEVE things that we constantly prove to you to be false

yet

you continue to beleve them!

you argue about things that you obviously don't know anything about

you use swears and insults and vulgarism

perhaps

when you turn 20 or 21 you might become a more mature and civilized person

but I doubt it

 

[froggy]

Some Christians are trying to force God into American history. They completely forget the Constitutioni reads "We the people'. We are a secular country by law. It's hard to tell because the Christian right has practically made Christianity a litmus test for public office.

So you saying by law we have to be secular, not christian. by your own admission you want our country to be secularized.

Secularisation is the transformation of a society from close identification with religious values and institutions toward non-religious (or "irreligious") values and secular institutions.

"So you saying by law we have to be secular, not christian. by your own admission you want our country to be secularized."


do ALL conservative christians immediately leap to such erroeous and extreme conclusions?

by law our country should be secular

by law ALL citizens have a righ tto worship any god/religion they choose to believe in

by law NOBODY should be forced to accept or practice ANY religion

by law all of our laws should be based on reason and logic and NOT religious mumbo jumbo

yes
the COUNTRY should be secular
while each person can be whatever religion they want

Did you not read the meaning of Secularisation?

 

[AllieBaba]

No, by law our country should NOT be secular. By law, our country is accepting of ALL religions, and the profession of faith in ANY circle is protected.

Stop trying to dismantle the US. If you want a secular nation, move to China (well, the China of 30 years, before they started to model themselves after us). Or Cuba.

 

[AllieBaba]

"I would like for people to accept that Christianity played a significant role in the founding of America, by at least reading through the evidence contained in the books I provided. "


well

our founding fathers accept slavery
as does the christan god all through the bible

and women were 2nd class citizens with fewer rights
which was also in accordance with the lunacies of the christian god

so
I guess you make a good point

christianity (pro-slavery, anti-women) definitely played a role in the founding of America

Yeah, and liberals are the reason Jews were slaughtered.

You are just so pathetic.

"Yeah, and liberals are the reason Jews were slaughtered."

you are constantly 2 things on this board

1. a very annoying little pissant, vulgar, crude and ignorant

2. completely wrong about everything you believe

obviously liberals did NOT slaughter jews so I need not even addres that insane point

and as for pathetic

even for a 12 year old (or are you 13 yet?)
you are a pretty pathetic specimen of conservativism

you BELIEVE things that we constantly prove to you to be false

yet

you continue to beleve them!

you argue about things that you obviously don't know anything about

you use swears and insults and vulgarism

perhaps

when you turn 20 or 21 you might become a more mature and civilized person

but I doubt it

Lol.
Not only do your debating skills suck, you are also dishonest.
Carry on with your nonsensical rants now.

 

[AllieBaba]

For dikrules:

"Off the top of my head, in the first six months of Obama’s presidency we’ve seen corporatism and “state capitalism” run amok, in the government takeover of two car companies and numerous banks. Labor unions have become increasingly indistinguishable from the government and the party that controls it. Herbert Croly and the Progressives have once again been rehabilitated as founding fathers of the New Age. The entire liberal intellectual class is convinced that this the time for a new New Deal. Critics of statism are vilified by liberal elites as racists and fascists. (And those who refuse to get with the Gorian program are guilty of “treason against the planet&#8220. When out of power, liberals lionized free speech and celebrated dissent as the highest form of patriotism. Now, they label dissent “un-American” and the president insists he doesn’t want to hear a lot of talking from anyone who disagrees with him. While the stench of eugenics and euthanasia do not quite sting the nostrils yet, the odor is detectable and the liberal impulse for controlling the lives of others has been re-exposed.

Indeed, our own messianic president, who insists that we can create a Kingdom of Heaven on Earth, also apparently believes that “we are God’s partners in matters of life and death” and that religious organizations that are true to their calling should rally behind a united front to expand the scope and role of government. When the head of state says such things, it is hard not to be reminded of the Progressive concept of the God State, a major theme of Liberal Fascism. The “State is the actually existing, realized moral life . . . The divine idea as it exists on earth,” Hegel declared in The Philosophy of History. The State, according to Hegel, was the “march of God on earth.” The progressives agreed. Richard Ely, the founding father of progressive economics, proclaimed “God works through the State in carrying out His purposes more universally than through any other institution.”
Liberal Fascism - National Review Online

Just because I think it's interesting.

Here, let's find some more:

"According to Goldberg, fascism in America predated the regimes of Mussolini and Hitler. He believes that Woodrow Wilson turned the United States into a “fascist country, albeit temporarily” during World War I. Americans in 1917 were reluctant to join the slaughter in Europe. Their nation hadn’t been attacked; there was no defining event — a Fort Sumter or Pearl Harbor — to rally public support. So Wilson formed the country’s first propaganda ministry, the Committee on Public Information, to teach people what they were up against. The devil became German militarism — the merciless Hun — and Americans were encouraged to lash out at those of German ancestry inside the United States. Vigilante groups arose to mete out justice and spy on fellow citizens. Congress passed draconian laws banning “abusive” and “disloyal” language against the government and its officials. The Post Office revoked the mailing privileges of hundreds of antiwar publications, effectively shutting them down. Rarely if ever in American history has dissent been so effectively stifled.

At the same time, Wilson formed numerous boards to regulate everything from the production of artillery pieces to the price of a lamb chop. The result, Goldberg argues, was the birth of a socialist dictatorship that “whipped, cajoled and seduced American industry into the loving embrace of the state.” Though partly dismantled after the war, this model, we are told, became the blueprint for Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/30/books/review/Oshinsky-t.html?_r=1

"As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer."
"Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society’s economic processes through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners. Where socialism nationalized property explicitly, fascism did so implicitly, by requiring owners to use their property in the “national interest”—that is, as the autocratic authority conceived it. (Nevertheless, a few industries were operated by the state.) Where socialism abolished all market relations outright, fascism left the appearance of market relations while planning all economic activities. Where socialism abolished money and prices, fascism controlled the monetary system and set all prices and wages politically. In doing all this, fascism denatured the marketplace. Entrepreneurship was abolished. State ministries, rather than consumers, determined what was produced and under what conditions."
Fascism: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics | Library of Economics and Liberty

 

[AllieBaba]

More on fascism..and who does this remind you of?

"Fascism, especially in its early stages, is obliged to be antitheoretical and frankly opportunistic in order to appeal to many diverse groups. Nevertheless, a few key concepts are basic to it. First and most important is the glorification of the state and the total subordination of the individual to it. The state is defined as an organic whole intowhich individuals must be absorbed for their own and the state's benefit. This "total state" is absolute in its methods and unlimited by law in its control and direction of its citizens.

A second ruling concept of fascism is embodied in the theory of social Darwinism. The doctrine of survival of the fittest and the necessity of struggle for life is applied by fascists to the life of a nation-state. Peaceful, complacent nations are seen as doomed to fall before more dynamic ones, making struggle and aggressive militarism a leading characteristic of the fascist state. Imperialism is the logical outcome of this dogma.

Another element of fascism is its elitism. Salvation from rule by the mob and the destruction of the existing social order can be effected only by an authoritarian leader who embodies the highest ideals of the nation. This concept of the leader as hero or superman, borrowed in part from the romanticism of Friedrich Nietzsche , Thomas Carlyle , and Richard Wagner , is closely linked with fascism's rejection of reason and intelligence and its emphasis on vision, creativeness, and "the will."

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/fascism.aspx

 

[bodecea]

Forcing them, I think (a moment of silence) doesn't force you to do nothing.

You are obviously too young to remember that back then, there was no moment of silence....we had to say a prayer...out loud...a christian prayer.

As for a moment of silence in a PUBLIC school....why?

Not every kid was sentenced to catholic school.

I didn't go to Catholic school...it was a public school.

 

[bodecea]

So you think God Will force himself on you.

You want to force god on us, don't you? Maybe god/goddess is trying to tell YOU something.

No, I'm just instructed to tell of God. What you do is your decision.

So, you really have no problem with us not wanting any of your god stuff in the public, tax-paid venue. Good.

 

[AllieBaba]

Bod, our founding fathers fought and died so we would have the right to be openly religious.

That was the whole fucking point. How hard is it to understand? When did Americans start thinking freedom of religion means no religion in public places?

 

[JBeukema]

there would be NO Constitution, without the Declaration of Independence....the two go hand in hand....

No.
The Declaration of Independence would be nothing but fodder unless the Founders wrote AND PASSED the US Constitution.
The Declaration of Independence is not law.
Have any of you taken the time to get off your butts and do any research? If you did you would find that EVERY SINGLE ONE of the religous ideas that were proposed to be included in the Constitution WERE VOTED DOWN.
And you still claim we are a nation founded on religion.
Do your homework.

Do your own.
Whether or not religion is in the consititution is NOT the question.

Define "founded". This country was "founded" with the Declaration of Independence.

It was FOUNDED on Christian principles. That does NOT mean we are a theocracy. Nobody has said that. That does NOT mean we don't have religious freedom, we certainly do (a nice Christian tenet). That does NOT mean we must adhere to certain religious ceremonies.

What it DOES mean is IT WAS FOUNDED ON CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES. The founding fathers discussed religion and Christianity ad nauseum and we have those discussions. They FOUNDED the country on religious principles, but they ultimately decided for us to be free to worship as we please, we could not include religion in our constitution. Wise move. Doesn't change the fact that we are FOUNDED on and firmly rooted in Christianity.

Actually, it was founded on Liberal principles.


Ask a librarian about Locke, my retarded pet.

 

[rikules]

More on fascism..and who does this remind you of?

"Fascism, especially in its early stages, is obliged to be antitheoretical and frankly opportunistic in order to appeal to many diverse groups. Nevertheless, a few key concepts are basic to it. First and most important is the glorification of the state and the total subordination of the individual to it. The state is defined as an organic whole intowhich individuals must be absorbed for their own and the state's benefit. This "total state" is absolute in its methods and unlimited by law in its control and direction of its citizens.

A second ruling concept of fascism is embodied in the theory of social Darwinism. The doctrine of survival of the fittest and the necessity of struggle for life is applied by fascists to the life of a nation-state. Peaceful, complacent nations are seen as doomed to fall before more dynamic ones, making struggle and aggressive militarism a leading characteristic of the fascist state. Imperialism is the logical outcome of this dogma.

Another element of fascism is its elitism. Salvation from rule by the mob and the destruction of the existing social order can be effected only by an authoritarian leader who embodies the highest ideals of the nation. This concept of the leader as hero or superman, borrowed in part from the romanticism of Friedrich Nietzsche , Thomas Carlyle , and Richard Wagner , is closely linked with fascism's rejection of reason and intelligence and its emphasis on vision, creativeness, and "the will."

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/fascism.aspx

who does it remind me of?

well

rush limbaugh
ann coulter
bill oreilly
glenn beck
michelle malkin
sean hannity
MOST of fox news
and...you


twas just thinking back to the days of aryan facist nazi germany

when the aryan nazi ELITISTS were running around declaring their "enemies"
(defined as liberals, intellectuals, communists, blacks, minorities)
were "intellectually inferior, stupid, subhumans" who were "trying to destroy germany and german traditional family values..."

now
who does that remind me of......

rush limbaugh
ann coulter
bill oreilly
glenn beck
michelle malkin
sean hannity
MOST of fox news
and...you

 

[JBeukema]

The most convincing evidence that our government did not ground itself upon Christianity comes from the very document that defines it-- the United States Constitution.

There is plenty of evidence that Christianity had significant influence on the founding of America, including the creating of the Constitution. You seem to still be ignoring Christianity's contribution to America's founding.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Origins-American-Constitutionalism-Donald-Lutz/dp/0807115061/ref=pd_sim_b_1"]Amazon.com: The Origins of American Constitutionalism (9780807115060): Donald S. Lutz: Books[/ame]


[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Constitution-Faith-Founding-Fathers/dp/0801052319"]Amazon.com: Christianity and the Constitution: The Faith of Our Founding Fathers (9780801052316): John Eidsmoe: Books[/ame]

John Eidsmoe rights the faulty historical record and correctly brings us back to the roots that made America great . . . clearly demonstrates that our constitutional liberties are a direct result of our founders' moral and religious convictions which were based on a belief in a God who created heaven and earth as well as on the fixed and unchanging absolutes of God's Word. Robert Skolrood, National Legal Foundation Legally accurate yet easy to understand . . . presents the truth about our founding fathers and their strong Christian roots that is missing from most textbooks and reference books written during the last fifty years. Every student of American history, ministers, and public speakers should read this book. . . . Tim LaHaye, Family Life Seminars Combines an interesting presentation with fine scholarship and a critical m message . . . should be read by anyone interested in the Constitution or Christianity. Wendell Bird, constitutional attorney Knowledge of our Christian heritage is an important weapon in the current fight for religious freedom in America. Eidsmoe has given us an entire arsenal of new and important evidence substantiating the Christian roots of our government. Mike Farris, Home School Legal Defense Association Balanced and lucid . . . clearly documents the pervasive Christian influence on the lives and thought of those who wrote our Constitution. I recommend it highly as a corrective to the almost totally secular portrayal of the Constitution found in so many textbooks today. Paul Vitz, author John Eidsmoe holds five degrees in law, theology, and political science. He currently serves as professor of constitutional law and related subjects at the Thomas Goode Jones School of Law, Faulkner University, Montgomery, Alabama, where he received the Outstanding Professor Award in 1993. A constitutional attorney and lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Air Force Reserve, he has also taught church history and other subjects in various seminaries and has produced a twelve-part video series titled The Institute on the Constitution. His other books include The Christian Legal Advisor, God and Caesar, and Columbus and Cortez.

__________________

And yet, even though most State Constitutions prominantly mentioned God, and had religious tests for office, the Federal Constitution deliberately did not.

Religious tests are illegal and always have been

 

[JBeukema]

She could have spoke her mind all she wanted no one is against free speech, it's her actions that caused Americas downfall.

What action of hers caused America's downfall?

She dared to speak out. She didn't know her place.

She left the kitchen?

She didn't put shoes on, too, did she?

 

[rikules]

Bod, our founding fathers fought and died so we would have the right to be openly religious.

That was the whole fucking point. How hard is it to understand? When did Americans start thinking freedom of religion means no religion in public places?

"our founding fathers fought and died so we would have the right to be openly religious."

wrong

they fought so we could have the freedom topractice ANY religion or even NO religion

are you saying otherwise?

are you saying American citizens do NOT have the right to not worship YOR god?
are you saying they do not have the right to not worship ANY god?

"That was the whole fucking point. How hard is it to understand? When did Americans start thinking freedom of religion means no religion in public places"

no FORCED religion

you can NOT force people to accept YOUR religion

anything woud make you what we already kow you are

a theocratic facist nincompoop

 

[AllieBaba]

More on fascism..and who does this remind you of?

"Fascism, especially in its early stages, is obliged to be antitheoretical and frankly opportunistic in order to appeal to many diverse groups. Nevertheless, a few key concepts are basic to it. First and most important is the glorification of the state and the total subordination of the individual to it. The state is defined as an organic whole intowhich individuals must be absorbed for their own and the state's benefit. This "total state" is absolute in its methods and unlimited by law in its control and direction of its citizens.

A second ruling concept of fascism is embodied in the theory of social Darwinism. The doctrine of survival of the fittest and the necessity of struggle for life is applied by fascists to the life of a nation-state. Peaceful, complacent nations are seen as doomed to fall before more dynamic ones, making struggle and aggressive militarism a leading characteristic of the fascist state. Imperialism is the logical outcome of this dogma.

Another element of fascism is its elitism. Salvation from rule by the mob and the destruction of the existing social order can be effected only by an authoritarian leader who embodies the highest ideals of the nation. This concept of the leader as hero or superman, borrowed in part from the romanticism of Friedrich Nietzsche , Thomas Carlyle , and Richard Wagner , is closely linked with fascism's rejection of reason and intelligence and its emphasis on vision, creativeness, and "the will."

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/fascism.aspx

who does it remind me of?

well

rush limbaugh
ann coulter
bill oreilly
glenn beck
michelle malkin
sean hannity
MOST of fox news
and...you


twas just thinking back to the days of aryan facist nazi germany

when the aryan nazi ELITISTS were running around declaring their "enemies"
(defined as liberals, intellectuals, communists, blacks, minorities)
were "intellectually inferior, stupid, subhumans" who were "trying to destroy germany and german traditional family values..."

now
who does that remind me of......

rush limbaugh
ann coulter
bill oreilly
glenn beck
michelle malkin
sean hannity
MOST of fox news
and...you

Just when I thought you couldn't be any more obtuse.

Maybe you should read the material again, genius. Those guys are journalists. Who promote freedom, I might add.

Of course you want to shut them up. You're a fascist.

 

[JBeukema]

No, by law our country should NOT be secular. By law, our country is accepting of ALL religions, and the profession of faith in ANY circle is protected.

Stop trying to dismantle the US. If you want a secular nation, move to China (well, the China of 30 years, before they started to model themselves after us). Or Cuba.

You're an idiot, but we already knew that.

 

[AllieBaba]

Bod, our founding fathers fought and died so we would have the right to be openly religious.

That was the whole fucking point. How hard is it to understand? When did Americans start thinking freedom of religion means no religion in public places?

"our founding fathers fought and died so we would have the right to be openly religious."

wrong

they fought so we could have the freedom topractice ANY religion or even NO religion

are you saying otherwise?

are you saying American citizens do NOT have the right to not worship YOR god?
are you saying they do not have the right to not worship ANY god?

"That was the whole fucking point. How hard is it to understand? When did Americans start thinking freedom of religion means no religion in public places"

no FORCED religion

you can NOT force people to accept YOUR religion

anything woud make you what we already kow you are

a theocratic facist nincompoop

I don't promote theocracy. You guys are the retards who apparently don't know what the word means.

Our founding fathers supported freedom of religion and freedom of speech. Period. You can play with that all you want, but you're shitting on America when you do it. They believed anyone should be able to openly profess their religion, and should never, EVER be shut down or persecuted because of it. They should never be prevented from seeking office based on their religious beliefs, they should never suffer financially because of it.

People like you and Sky are trying to turn us into exactly the sort of country they tried very, very hard to ensure we would never be. Congratulations, fascist.

You'll note at least I know how to spell fascist.

 

[AllieBaba]

And it's typical of fascism that you pretend I'm doing something I'm not. You claim that defending freedom of speech and freedom of religion is "theocracy" and should be stopped. It's reminiscent of claiming that Jews wanted to kill German babies and take money. A means to an end. And the end is to eradicate religious freedom, freedom of speech, and establish fascism.