The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

The most convincing evidence that our government did not ground itself upon Christianity comes from the very document that defines it-- the United States Constitution.

If indeed our Framers had aimed to found a Christian republic, it would seem highly unlikely that they would have forgotten to leave out their Christian intentions in the Supreme law of the land. In fact, nowhere in the Constitution do we have a single mention of Christianity, God, Jesus, or any Supreme Being. There occurs only two references to religion and they both use exclusionary wording. The 1st Amendment's says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . ." and in Article VI, Section 3, ". . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

Thomas Jefferson interpreted the 1st Amendment in his famous letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in January 1, 1802:

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

Some Religious activists try to extricate the concept of separation between church and State by claiming that those words do not occur in the Constitution. Indeed they do not, but neither does it exactly say "freedom of religion," yet the First Amendment implies both.

As Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom:

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."

James Madison, perhaps the greatest supporter for separation of church and State, and whom many refer to as the father of the Constitution, also held similar views which he expressed in his letter to Edward Livingston, 10 July 1822:

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Today, if ever our government needed proof that the separation of church and State works to ensure the freedom of religion, one only need to look at the plethora of Churches, temples, and shrines that exist in the cities and towns throughout the United States. Only a secular government, divorced from religion could possibly allow such tolerant diversity.

The Declaration of Independence
Many Christians who think of America as founded upon Christianity usually present the Declaration as "proof." The reason appears obvious: the document mentions God. However, the God in the Declaration does not describe Christianity's God. It describes "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God." This nature's view of God agrees with deist philosophy but any attempt to use the Declaration as a support for Christianity will fail for this reason alone.

Article XI from the Treaty of Tripoli More significantly, the Declaration does not represent the law of the land as it came before the Constitution. The Declaration aimed at announcing their separation from Great Britain and listed the various grievances with the "thirteen united States of America." The grievances against Great Britain no longer hold, and we have more than thirteen states. Today, the Declaration represents an important historical document about rebellious intentions against Great Britain at a time before the formation of our independent government. Although the Declaration may have influential power, it may inspire the lofty thoughts of poets, and judges may mention it in their summations, it holds no legal power today. Our presidents, judges and policemen must take an oath to uphold the Constitution, but never to the Declaration of Independence.

Of course the Declaration depicts a great political document, as it aimed at a future government upheld by citizens instead of a religious monarchy. It observed that all men "are created equal" meaning that we all come inborn with the abilities of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That "to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men." The Declaration says nothing about our rights secured by Christianity, nor does it imply anything about a Christian foundation.

Treaty of Tripoli
Unlike governments of the past, the American Fathers set up a government divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an unspoken given. However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:

Joel Barlow, U.S. Consul General of Algiers
Copyright National Portait Gallery Smithsonian Institution/Art Resource NY "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien, et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.

So here we have a clear admission by the United States that our government did not found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the Declaration of Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all treaties do according to the Constitution (see Article VI, Sect. 2).

Although the Christian exclusionary wording in the Treaty of Tripoli only lasted for eight years and no longer has legal status, it clearly represented the feelings of our Founding Fathers at the beginning of the U.S. government.

Common Law
Signers of the Treaty of Tripoli According to the Constitution's 7th Amendment: "In suits at common law. . . the right of trial by jury shall be preserved; and no fact, tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States than according to the rules of the common law."

Here, many Christians believe that common law came from Christian foundations and therefore the Constitution derives from it. They use various quotes from Supreme Court Justices proclaiming that Christianity came as part of the laws of England, and therefore from its common law heritage.

But one of our principle Founding Fathers, Thomas Jefferson, elaborated about the history of common law in his letter to Thomas Cooper on February 10, 1814:

"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it.

". . . if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if, having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

In the same letter, Jefferson examined how the error spread about Christianity and common law. Jefferson realized that a misinterpretation had occurred with a Latin term by Prisot, "*ancien scripture*," in reference to common law history. The term meant "ancient scripture" but people had incorrectly interpreted it to mean "Holy Scripture," thus spreading the myth that common law came from the Bible. Jefferson writes:

"And Blackstone repeats, in the words of Sir Matthew Hale, that 'Christianity is part of the laws of England,' citing Ventris and Strange ubi surpa. 4. Blackst. 59. Lord Mansfield qualifies it a little by saying that 'The essential principles of revealed religion are part of the common law." In the case of the Chamberlain of London v. Evans, 1767. But he cites no authority, and leaves us at our peril to find out what, in the opinion of the judge, and according to the measure of his foot or his faith, are those essential principles of revealed religion obligatory on us as a part of the common law."

Thus we find this string of authorities, when examined to the beginning, all hanging on the same hook, a perverted expression of Priscot's, or on one another, or nobody."

The Encyclopedia Britannica, also describes the Saxon origin and adds: "The nature of the new common law was at first much influenced by the principles of Roman law, but later it developed more and more along independent lines." Also prominent among the characteristics that derived out of common law include the institution of the jury, and the right to speedy trial.
Little-Known U.S. Document Proclaims America's Government is Secular - The Early America Review, Summer 1997

The framers left it out because of the bad name Christianity got from the actions of Roman Catholic in England.

The framers left it out because it was good for our country.
 
When God was in this nation it was a greater country than it is now, America is going downhill more and more everyday.

So, you are saying that god is not in this nation anymore? Who chased him/her away? And if he/she can be chased away....what does that say about his/her powers?

So you think God Will force himself on you.:cuckoo:

Some Christians are trying to force God into American history. They completely forget the Constitutioni reads "We the people'. We are a secular country by law. It's hard to tell because the Christian right has practically made Christianity a litmus test for public office.
 
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Why did they go to Church?

Sky, the fear of us becoming a theocracy is lunacy imho....you are NO CLOSER to this happening at any time in History of our country....we have a constitution that will ALWAYS keep this from happening, and in addition to this, you have fewer Christians than in any time of our History....we have millions of Buddhists, Hindu, Muslim, Hebrew, Wicca, and Atheists. We are a Secular Nation, where one can choose your religion or lack thereof and THIS WILL NOT CHANGE....

so, stop this theocracy PHOBIA Madness....it is just your group of religious thinkers that is trying to unite you in "an enemy", so to give them more power....they get power from your fear....is what I think is going on with you...???

to go through your life in FEAR of such, makes you weak in mind and in body. You should release yourself of such fear, you will be more spiritually whole, without it....from one friend to another.

Care

What you fail to recognize is how much more fundamental and politically powerful christianity is today. 100 years ago, churches were small and rural. Churches nowadays are closer to corporations. Look at new life "church". Churches and their members have become much more radical in their beliefs. This isn't your grandfathers church.

How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State

Joan Bokaer, the Director of Theocracy Watch, a project of the Center for Religion, Ethics and Social Policy at Cornell University wrote, “In March 1986, I was on a speaking tour in Iowa and received a copy of the following memo [Pat] Robertson had distributed to the Iowa Republican County Caucus titled, “How to Participate in a Political Party.” It read:

“Rule the world for God.

“Give the impression that you are there to work for the party, not push an ideology.

“Hide your strength.

“Don’t flaunt your Christianity.

“Christians need to take leadership positions. Party officers control political parties and so it is very important that mature Christians have a majority of leadership positions whenever possible, God willing.”[12]
The Despoiling Of America

THAT is why we need speration of church and state. Religion can be used as a tool. What good comes out of this, of "christians" ruling the world for god?
 
The most convincing evidence that our government did not ground itself upon Christianity comes from the very document that defines it-- the United States Constitution.

There is plenty of evidence that Christianity had significant influence on the founding of America, including the creating of the Constitution. You seem to still be ignoring Christianity's contribution to America's founding.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Origins-American-Constitutionalism-Donald-Lutz/dp/0807115061/ref=pd_sim_b_1]Amazon.com: The Origins of American Constitutionalism (9780807115060): Donald S. Lutz: Books[/ame]


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Constitution-Faith-Founding-Fathers/dp/0801052319]Amazon.com: Christianity and the Constitution: The Faith of Our Founding Fathers (9780801052316): John Eidsmoe: Books[/ame]
John Eidsmoe rights the faulty historical record and correctly brings us back to the roots that made America great . . . clearly demonstrates that our constitutional liberties are a direct result of our founders' moral and religious convictions which were based on a belief in a God who created heaven and earth as well as on the fixed and unchanging absolutes of God's Word. Robert Skolrood, National Legal Foundation Legally accurate yet easy to understand . . . presents the truth about our founding fathers and their strong Christian roots that is missing from most textbooks and reference books written during the last fifty years. Every student of American history, ministers, and public speakers should read this book. . . . Tim LaHaye, Family Life Seminars Combines an interesting presentation with fine scholarship and a critical m message . . . should be read by anyone interested in the Constitution or Christianity. Wendell Bird, constitutional attorney Knowledge of our Christian heritage is an important weapon in the current fight for religious freedom in America. Eidsmoe has given us an entire arsenal of new and important evidence substantiating the Christian roots of our government. Mike Farris, Home School Legal Defense Association Balanced and lucid . . . clearly documents the pervasive Christian influence on the lives and thought of those who wrote our Constitution. I recommend it highly as a corrective to the almost totally secular portrayal of the Constitution found in so many textbooks today. Paul Vitz, author John Eidsmoe holds five degrees in law, theology, and political science. He currently serves as professor of constitutional law and related subjects at the Thomas Goode Jones School of Law, Faulkner University, Montgomery, Alabama, where he received the Outstanding Professor Award in 1993. A constitutional attorney and lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Air Force Reserve, he has also taught church history and other subjects in various seminaries and has produced a twelve-part video series titled The Institute on the Constitution. His other books include The Christian Legal Advisor, God and Caesar, and Columbus and Cortez.
__________________

And yet, even though most State Constitutions prominantly mentioned God, and had religious tests for office, the Federal Constitution deliberately did not.

You are assuming that if something does not contain God or Christ in its words that it cannot have Christian principles in it. This is not the case. Take for example C.S. Lewis’ The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. It does not mention Christ at all, yet there are definitely Christian principles in it.

I am not trying to say we are a Christian nation. A “Christian nation” has too many meanings/definitions that can be applied to it.

I would like for people to accept that Christianity played a significant role in the founding of America, by at least reading through the evidence contained in the books I provided. What do you or SkyDancer have to fear in agreeing to that?
 
What you fail to recognize is how much more fundamental and politically powerful christianity is today. 100 years ago, churches were small and rural. Churches nowadays are closer to corporations. Look at new life "church". Churches and their members have become much more radical in their beliefs. This isn't your grandfathers church.

How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State

Joan Bokaer, the Director of Theocracy Watch, a project of the Center for Religion, Ethics and Social Policy at Cornell University wrote, “In March 1986, I was on a speaking tour in Iowa and received a copy of the following memo [Pat] Robertson had distributed to the Iowa Republican County Caucus titled, “How to Participate in a Political Party.” It read:

“Rule the world for God.

“Give the impression that you are there to work for the party, not push an ideology.

“Hide your strength.

“Don’t flaunt your Christianity.

“Christians need to take leadership positions. Party officers control political parties and so it is very important that mature Christians have a majority of leadership positions whenever possible, God willing.”[12]
The Despoiling Of America

THAT is why we need speration of church and state. Religion can be used as a tool. What good comes out of this, of "christians" ruling the world for god?

"You and I can bring the rule and reign
of the cross to America."

Bishop Harry Jackson, pastor of the 2,000-member Hope Christian Church in Bowie, Maryland
 
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The most convincing evidence that our government did not ground itself upon Christianity comes from the very document that defines it-- the United States Constitution.

There is plenty of evidence that Christianity had significant influence on the founding of America, including the creating of the Constitution. You seem to still be ignoring Christianity's contribution to America's founding.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Origins-American-Constitutionalism-Donald-Lutz/dp/0807115061/ref=pd_sim_b_1]Amazon.com: The Origins of American Constitutionalism (9780807115060): Donald S. Lutz: Books[/ame]


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Constitution-Faith-Founding-Fathers/dp/0801052319]Amazon.com: Christianity and the Constitution: The Faith of Our Founding Fathers (9780801052316): John Eidsmoe: Books[/ame]
John Eidsmoe rights the faulty historical record and correctly brings us back to the roots that made America great . . . clearly demonstrates that our constitutional liberties are a direct result of our founders' moral and religious convictions which were based on a belief in a God who created heaven and earth as well as on the fixed and unchanging absolutes of God's Word. Robert Skolrood, National Legal Foundation Legally accurate yet easy to understand . . . presents the truth about our founding fathers and their strong Christian roots that is missing from most textbooks and reference books written during the last fifty years. Every student of American history, ministers, and public speakers should read this book. . . . Tim LaHaye, Family Life Seminars Combines an interesting presentation with fine scholarship and a critical m message . . . should be read by anyone interested in the Constitution or Christianity. Wendell Bird, constitutional attorney Knowledge of our Christian heritage is an important weapon in the current fight for religious freedom in America. Eidsmoe has given us an entire arsenal of new and important evidence substantiating the Christian roots of our government. Mike Farris, Home School Legal Defense Association Balanced and lucid . . . clearly documents the pervasive Christian influence on the lives and thought of those who wrote our Constitution. I recommend it highly as a corrective to the almost totally secular portrayal of the Constitution found in so many textbooks today. Paul Vitz, author John Eidsmoe holds five degrees in law, theology, and political science. He currently serves as professor of constitutional law and related subjects at the Thomas Goode Jones School of Law, Faulkner University, Montgomery, Alabama, where he received the Outstanding Professor Award in 1993. A constitutional attorney and lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Air Force Reserve, he has also taught church history and other subjects in various seminaries and has produced a twelve-part video series titled The Institute on the Constitution. His other books include The Christian Legal Advisor, God and Caesar, and Columbus and Cortez.
__________________

And yet, even though most State Constitutions prominantly mentioned God, and had religious tests for office, the Federal Constitution deliberately did not.

The operative word is "had"....not anymore. It's unconstitutional. (let us remember that before the 14th Amendment, state governments did not have to honor the same rights the federal government had to honor thru the Bill of Rights, etc.
 
She could have spoke her mind all she wanted no one is against free speech, it's her actions that caused Americas downfall.

What action of hers caused America's downfall?

She dared to speak out. She didn't know her place.

so

according to the conservatively correct

she HAD FREEDOM of SPEECH

her mistake was in USING it!.


she should have just accepted her "god-given" right to FREE SPEECH and then just SHUT UP about it!

:)
 
There is plenty of evidence that Christianity had significant influence on the founding of America, including the creating of the Constitution. You seem to still be ignoring Christianity's contribution to America's founding.

Amazon.com: The Origins of American Constitutionalism (9780807115060): Donald S. Lutz: Books


Amazon.com: Christianity and the Constitution: The Faith of Our Founding Fathers (9780801052316): John Eidsmoe: Books

__________________

And yet, even though most State Constitutions prominantly mentioned God, and had religious tests for office, the Federal Constitution deliberately did not.

You are assuming that if something does not contain God or Christ in its words that it cannot have Christian principles in it. This is not the case. Take for example C.S. Lewis’ The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. It does not mention Christ at all, yet there are definitely Christian principles in it.

I am not trying to say we are a Christian nation. A “Christian nation” has too many meanings/definitions that can be applied to it.

I would like for people to accept that Christianity played a significant role in the founding of America, by at least reading through the evidence contained in the books I provided. What do you or SkyDancer have to fear in agreeing to that?

The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is a Christ analogy. What is the Christ analogy in the Constitution? I have a copy available...please point it out. TIA.
 
And yet, even though most State Constitutions prominantly mentioned God, and had religious tests for office, the Federal Constitution deliberately did not.

You are assuming that if something does not contain God or Christ in its words that it cannot have Christian principles in it. This is not the case. Take for example C.S. Lewis’ The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. It does not mention Christ at all, yet there are definitely Christian principles in it.

I am not trying to say we are a Christian nation. A “Christian nation” has too many meanings/definitions that can be applied to it.

I would like for people to accept that Christianity played a significant role in the founding of America, by at least reading through the evidence contained in the books I provided. What do you or SkyDancer have to fear in agreeing to that?

The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is a Christ analogy. What is the Christ analogy in the Constitution? I have a copy available...please point it out. TIA.

I'm not claiming a Christ analogy in the Constitution. My point was to provide an example of something that does not contain God or Christ in its words yet still has religions/Christian principles in it.
 
Read the Constitution. No God there. It's a secular document.

there would be NO Constitution, without the Declaration of Independence....the two go hand in hand....

God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. I posit the US is a secular government. God in the Declaration of Independence is mostly likley the Deist version rather than orthodox Christian. We're on opposite political sides now, Care. Can we still remain friends?

I disagree with you, it was not more than likely Deist in Nature, it was writen by Christians for Christians of the time that they lived in.

This does not mean it was founded upon the sole religion of christianity, just that it was influenced by how the Majority of Christians at the time felt and thought. There were many many signers of the constitution, the MAJORITY of whom were Christian and it was ratified by all the States with 2/3's vote of all of their gvt representatives, of which the mega majority were Christians.....

Do you really believe that these MAJORITY of believers in Christianity would have accepted the Constitution if it did not represent what they believed a govt should represent or if it interfered with their beliefs?

I don't.

and I do not have a problem with this, as you do.

And for goodness sakes, differences in opinion, WOULD NEVER make me lose a friendship or even dislike someone....I believe God gave us all freewill, and that includes each of us, having their own opinion on things...even if their opinions are wrong! :D

hugs and kisses dear!

care
 
There is plenty of evidence that Christianity had significant influence on the founding of America, including the creating of the Constitution. You seem to still be ignoring Christianity's contribution to America's founding.

Amazon.com: The Origins of American Constitutionalism (9780807115060): Donald S. Lutz: Books


Amazon.com: Christianity and the Constitution: The Faith of Our Founding Fathers (9780801052316): John Eidsmoe: Books

__________________

And yet, even though most State Constitutions prominantly mentioned God, and had religious tests for office, the Federal Constitution deliberately did not.

You are assuming that if something does not contain God or Christ in its words that it cannot have Christian principles in it. This is not the case. Take for example C.S. Lewis’ The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. It does not mention Christ at all, yet there are definitely Christian principles in it.

I am not trying to say we are a Christian nation. A “Christian nation” has too many meanings/definitions that can be applied to it.

I would like for people to accept that Christianity played a significant role in the founding of America, by at least reading through the evidence contained in the books I provided. What do you or SkyDancer have to fear in agreeing to that?


"I would like for people to accept that Christianity played a significant role in the founding of America, by at least reading through the evidence contained in the books I provided. "


well

our founding fathers accept slavery
as does the christan god all through the bible

and women were 2nd class citizens with fewer rights
which was also in accordance with the lunacies of the christian god

so
I guess you make a good point

christianity (pro-slavery, anti-women) definitely played a role in the founding of America
 
You seem to think that Christians should be sinless....?

Well, maybe they SHOULD be sinless, especially if they follow Christ who was sinless.....but this is clearly not the case...Christians have had many, many, many faults over the centuries of which there is no denying. I don't think any Christian can deny such.

but that is not at issue here, whether christians were perfect or not.
 
Interesting....by choice, eh? So FORCING kids to say a prayer in school was a choice?

Forcing them, I think (a moment of silence) doesn't force you to do nothing.

You are obviously too young to remember that back then, there was no moment of silence....we had to say a prayer...out loud...a christian prayer.

As for a moment of silence in a PUBLIC school....why?

Not every kid was sentenced to catholic school.
 
there would be NO Constitution, without the Declaration of Independence....the two go hand in hand....

God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. I posit the US is a secular government. God in the Declaration of Independence is mostly likley the Deist version rather than orthodox Christian. We're on opposite political sides now, Care. Can we still remain friends?

I disagree with you, it was not more than likely Deist in Nature, it was writen by Christians for Christians of the time that they lived in.

This does not mean it was founded upon the sole religion of christianity, just that it was influenced by how the Majority of Christians at the time felt and thought. There were many many signers of the constitution, the MAJORITY of whom were Christian and it was ratified by all the States with 2/3's vote of all of their gvt representatives, of which the mega majority were Christians.....

Do you really believe that these MAJORITY of believers in Christianity would have accepted the Constitution if it did not represent what they believed a govt should represent or if it interfered with their beliefs?

I don't.

and I do not have a problem with this, as you do.

And for goodness sakes, differences in opinion, WOULD NEVER make me lose a friendship or even dislike someone....I believe God gave us all freewill, and that includes each of us, having their own opinion on things...even if their opinions are wrong! :D

hugs and kisses dear!

care

"And for goodness sakes, differences in opinion, WOULD NEVER make me lose a friendship or even dislike someone.."


I do that all the time

once
a long time ago
I had a really good friend

one day he said "the atlantic is a greater ocean than the pacific"

well
that was IT for him!

:)
 
So, you are saying that god is not in this nation anymore? Who chased him/her away? And if he/she can be chased away....what does that say about his/her powers?

So you think God Will force himself on you.:cuckoo:

You want to force god on us, don't you? Maybe god/goddess is trying to tell YOU something.

No, I'm just instructed to tell of God. What you do is your decision.
 
And yet, even though most State Constitutions prominantly mentioned God, and had religious tests for office, the Federal Constitution deliberately did not.

You are assuming that if something does not contain God or Christ in its words that it cannot have Christian principles in it. This is not the case. Take for example C.S. Lewis’ The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. It does not mention Christ at all, yet there are definitely Christian principles in it.

I am not trying to say we are a Christian nation. A “Christian nation” has too many meanings/definitions that can be applied to it.

I would like for people to accept that Christianity played a significant role in the founding of America, by at least reading through the evidence contained in the books I provided. What do you or SkyDancer have to fear in agreeing to that?


"I would like for people to accept that Christianity played a significant role in the founding of America, by at least reading through the evidence contained in the books I provided. "


well

our founding fathers accept slavery
as does the christan god all through the bible

and women were 2nd class citizens with fewer rights
which was also in accordance with the lunacies of the christian god

so
I guess you make a good point

christianity (pro-slavery, anti-women) definitely played a role in the founding of America


Yeah, and liberals are the reason Jews were slaughtered.

You are just so pathetic.
 
Forcing them, I think (a moment of silence) doesn't force you to do nothing.

You are obviously too young to remember that back then, there was no moment of silence....we had to say a prayer...out loud...a christian prayer.

As for a moment of silence in a PUBLIC school....why?

Not every kid was sentenced to catholic school.

The horror of having to be silent. It is cruel and unusual.
 
So, you are saying that god is not in this nation anymore? Who chased him/her away? And if he/she can be chased away....what does that say about his/her powers?

So you think God Will force himself on you.:cuckoo:

Some Christians are trying to force God into American history. They completely forget the Constitutioni reads "We the people'. We are a secular country by law. It's hard to tell because the Christian right has practically made Christianity a litmus test for public office.

So you saying by law we have to be secular, not christian. by your own admission you want our country to be secularized.

Secularisation is the transformation of a society from close identification with religious values and institutions toward non-religious (or "irreligious") values and secular institutions.
 
there would be NO Constitution, without the Declaration of Independence....the two go hand in hand....

God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. I posit the US is a secular government. God in the Declaration of Independence is mostly likley the Deist version rather than orthodox Christian. We're on opposite political sides now, Care. Can we still remain friends?

I disagree with you, it was not more than likely Deist in Nature, it was writen by Christians for Christians of the time that they lived in.

This does not mean it was founded upon the sole religion of christianity, just that it was influenced by how the Majority of Christians at the time felt and thought. There were many many signers of the constitution, the MAJORITY of whom were Christian and it was ratified by all the States with 2/3's vote of all of their gvt representatives, of which the mega majority were Christians.....

Do you really believe that these MAJORITY of believers in Christianity would have accepted the Constitution if it did not represent what they believed a govt should represent or if it interfered with their beliefs?

I don't.

and I do not have a problem with this, as you do.

And for goodness sakes, differences in opinion, WOULD NEVER make me lose a friendship or even dislike someone....I believe God gave us all freewill, and that includes each of us, having their own opinion on things...even if their opinions are wrong! :D

hugs and kisses dear!

care


give THEM (conservative evangelical christians) an inch

then they want ANOTHER inch

and another

until they have it all....

for example:

back after the civil war when they (con christians) wanted to put "in god we trust" on all of our money they INSISTED that it "doesn't mean anything..." and that they would NEVER use it to try and gain further foothold.....


however

today

MILLIONS of these con christians use "in god we trust" on our currency as EVIDENCE
that our "founding fathers intended for America to be a CHRISTIAN NATION"
(even though our fOUNDING fathers had nothing to do with it)

when asked...
"but...what does 'America is a christan nation' actually mean they will (lie) and reply ...."golly..it doesn't mean anything!"

however
should we all ever AGREE that 'America is a christian nation' they will THEN start to explain the TRUE MEANING of that phrase...

'since we ALL AGREE that America IS a christian nation then THAT means that
christians have special rights
and the christian bible should be TAUGHT in schools
and christian morals should be taught to ALL of our children
and homosexuality IS a crime
and atheists are NOT citizens.....'


give them an inch....
 

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