The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[bodecea]

Who said they did?
It is still founded on Christian principles. As has been proven repeatedly. There's no question about it.

How do you explain away the comments of the founders, who SAID they were building a country on Christian principles?

What christian principles? Please be specific.

 

[Newby]

Who said they did?
It is still founded on Christian principles. As has been proven repeatedly. There's no question about it.

How do you explain away the comments of the founders, who SAID they were building a country on Christian principles?

What christian principles? Please be specific.

Read their own words, it's pretty well documented and as I have said ad nauseum, in the national archives.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Church and state must be separated to ensure the citizens' civil liberties. That is why Christians and deists formed together to create a secular government informed by religious and ethical values. The first step was the banning a national church. The second step was the elimination of state churches. The third step, an ongoing process, is to keep church and state (not state and value) separated.

Some would like to undo the founders efforts to keep church and state separate.

What's the percentage of citizens that wish to do this? You're making a mountain out of a molehill, and over exaggerating any fear that this is going to ever happen.

An estimated 35 million is what I've read but that's just a conspiracy theory. The Dominionists are a fringe group of Christian fanatics. Let's make sure they stay fringe. For some of us, it isn't that far a leap to think it's a larger group due to the size of the policized Christian right.

Evangelicals constitute a rather large group.

 

[Newby]

Some would like to undo the founders efforts to keep church and state separate.

What's the percentage of citizens that wish to do this? You're making a mountain out of a molehill, and over exaggerating any fear that this is going to ever happen.

An estimated 35 million is what I've read but that's just a conspiracy theory. The Dominionists are a fringe group of Christian fanatics. Let's make sure they stay fringe. For some of us, it isn't that far a leap to think it's a larger group due to the size of the policized Christian right.

Evangelicals are a rather large group.

You seriously believe this shit? Dominionists? Seriously?

Tinfoil hat time apparently.

The Despoiling Of America

The Despoiling of America

How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State

By Katherine Yurica

With Editorial and Research Assistant Laurie Hall

February 11, 2004

Image from GQ Magazine


[Editor's Note: On November 6, 2004 we corrected two sentences at accompanying endnote 58.]


[Editor's Note: On April 4, 2005 we corrected Gary North's Phd. from economics to history. And On July 30, 2008 we corrected our discussion of Supralapsarianism.]

The First Prince of the Theocratic States of America


It happened quietly, with barely a mention in the media. Only the Washington Post dutifully reported it.[1] And only Kevin Phillips saw its significance in his new book, American Dynasty.[2] On December 24, 2001, Pat Robertson resigned his position as President of the Christian Coalition.



Behind the scenes religious conservatives were abuzz with excitement. They believed Robertson had stepped down to allow the ascendance of the President of the United States of America to take his rightful place as the head of the true American Holy Christian Church.



Robertson’s act was symbolic, but it carried a secret and solemn revelation to the faithful. It was the signal that the Bush administration was a government under God that was led by an anointed President who would be the first regent in a dynasty of regents awaiting the return of Jesus to earth. The President would now be the minister through whom God would execute His will in the nation. George W. Bush accepted his scepter and his sword with humility, grace and a sense of exultation.



As Antonin Scalia, Associate Justice of the Supreme Court explained a few months later, the Bible teaches and Christians believe “… that government …derives its moral authority from God. Government is the ‘minister of God’ with powers to ‘revenge,’ to ‘execute wrath,’ including even wrath by the sword…”[3]



George W. Bush began to wield the sword of God’s revenge with relish from the beginning of his administration, but most of us missed the sword play. I have taken the liberty to paraphrase an illustration from Leo Strauss, the father of the neo-conservative movement, which gives us a clue of how the hiding is done:

“One ought not to say to those whom one wants to kill, ‘Give me your votes, because your votes will enable me to kill you and I want to kill you,’ but merely, ‘Give me your votes,’ for once you have the power of the votes in your hand, you can satisfy your desire.”[4]

Notwithstanding the advice, the President’s foreign policy revealed a flair for saber rattling. He warned the world that “nations are either with us or they’re against us!” His speeches, often containing allusions to biblical passages, were spoken with the certainty of a man who holds the authority of God’s wrath on earth, for he not only challenged the evil nations of the world, singling out Iraq, Syria, Iran, and North Korea as the “axis of evil,” but he wielded the sword of punishment and the sword of revenge against his own people: the American poor and the middle class who according to the religious right have earned God’s wrath by their licentiousness and undisciplined lives.

 

[Newby]

Some would like to undo the founders efforts to keep church and state separate.

What's the percentage of citizens that wish to do this? You're making a mountain out of a molehill, and over exaggerating any fear that this is going to ever happen.

An estimated 35 million is what I've read but that's just a conspiracy theory. The Dominionists are a fringe group of Christian fanatics. Let's make sure they stay fringe. For some of us, it isn't that far a leap to think it's a larger group due to the size of the policized Christian right.

Evangelicals are a rather large group.

Who calls them diminionists? Do they themselves, or is that what they've been labeled by the left wing nutcase types like the person that wrote that fantasy article above?

 

[Sky Dancer]

What's the percentage of citizens that wish to do this? You're making a mountain out of a molehill, and over exaggerating any fear that this is going to ever happen.

An estimated 35 million is what I've read but that's just a conspiracy theory. The Dominionists are a fringe group of Christian fanatics. Let's make sure they stay fringe. For some of us, it isn't that far a leap to think it's a larger group due to the size of the policized Christian right.

Evangelicals are a rather large group.

Who calls them diminionists? Do they themselves, or is that what they've been labeled by the left wing nutcase types like the person that wrote that fantasy article above?

They call themselves Domininists--Christian Reconstructionists. They exist, though probably not in the numbers some of the articles claim.
http://www.jewsonfirst.org/dominionism.html#whatis

 

[Care4all]

last night, i was doing a search on our founding fathers and Christianity etc, and I came up with this article from some Pastor somewhere?

and He argues that what our founding fathers did WAS NOT CHRISTIAN LIKE and we are clueless christians to the word of God, if we think that they were or their actions were.... very interesting article and the complete OPPOSITE of what I had been arguing and thought...

AMERICA’S REBELLIOUS HEART

 

[Sky Dancer]

last night, i was doing a search on our founding fathers and Christianity etc, and I came up with this article from some Pastor somewhere?

and He argues that what our founding fathers did WAS NOT CHRISTIAN LIKE and we are clueless christians to the word of God, if we think that they were or their actions were.... very interesting article and the complete OPPOSITE of what I had been arguing and thought...

AMERICA’S REBELLIOUS HEART

Would you explain further in your own words.

 

[Gadawg73]

last night, i was doing a search on our founding fathers and Christianity etc, and I came up with this article from some Pastor somewhere?

and He argues that what our founding fathers did WAS NOT CHRISTIAN LIKE and we are clueless christians to the word of God, if we think that they were or their actions were.... very interesting article and the complete OPPOSITE of what I had been arguing and thought...

AMERICA’S REBELLIOUS HEART

The Founders were radicals of their time. The religous community supported the Torries, not these radicals rebelling against the divine powers annointed by God to the crown monarchy.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Theocratic dominionism

The terms Theocratic Dominionism or Hard Dominionism, describe forms of Dominion Theology, a religious trend that arose in the 1970s as a series of small Christian movements that seek to establish a theocratic form of government. In the United States, a very doctrinaire version of Hard Dominionism is Christian Reconstructionism, a theonomic movement that seeks to replace the secular governance model, and subsequently the U.S. Constitution, creating a political and judicial system based on Old Testament Law, or Mosaic Law.

Critics of the theocratic versions of dominionism often lump all the variants together, and use the terms Dominionism, Dominion Theology, and Christian Reconstructionism almost interchangeably, but this is problematic. For example, all Christian Reconstructionists are Dominionists, but not all Dominionists are Christian Reconstructionists.

Dominionists often argue that the United States was originally envisioned as a society based on Biblical law.

PublicEye.org - The Website of Political Research Associates

 

[AllieBaba]

None of that has anything to do with whether or not our founders were using Christian principles to guide them.

They were. They said they were. You can argue semantics all you like, and say now that they were challenged (as Christians) by the strong churches of the time. It doesn't matter. They still built a government based on their own Christian ideals.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Allie-

Many of the founders (but not all, some were Deists, some Unitarian) were Christian. The Constitution is a secular document.

 

[AllieBaba]

Except we weren't arguing whether or not the constitution was a secular document.
The argument was whether or not our country was built upon Christian values, and whether it remains Christian.

It was, and it does.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Except we weren't arguing whether or not the constitution was a secular document.
The argument was whether or not our country was built upon Christian values, and whether it remains Christian.

It was, and it does.

I'm arguing that the United States of America is a secular society. I base that claim on the Constitution, a secular document which is the law of our land.

I agree that some of the Founders were Christian and that undoubtedly informed their worldview. Religion was tempered by reason and the Enlightenment. Consequently, we are not a Christian nation, but a secular society with freedom of religion.

I haven't seen any convincing evidence that the government of the US was built on Christian values.

 

[AllieBaba]

You have changed the argument so that you can fit your view into it. In other words, you changed the goal posts.

The original argument was whether or not the US was Christian. It is.

You now state that the argument is whether or not the constitution is Christian. That has nothing to do with the original argument. You want to narrow the argument, so you can force it into your answer.

If the original argument was "the constitution by itself is secular" I imagine that would float.

But that wasn't the original argument. We weren't discussing the constitution. We're discussing whether or not the country was built upon Christian values (and IT WAS) and whether or not the country (as in THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE) are Christian. They are.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Gadawg says it best:

"Founders apply Christian principles. You said it and I agree.
The US government and THE LAW does not."


I agree with this statement.

 

[Sky Dancer]

You have changed the argument so that you can fit your view into it. In other words, you changed the goal posts.

The original argument was whether or not the US was Christian. It is.

You now state that the argument is whether or not the constitution is Christian. That has nothing to do with the original argument. You want to narrow the argument, so you can force it into your answer.

If the original argument was "the constitution by itself is secular" I imagine that would float.

But that wasn't the original argument. We weren't discussing the constitution. We're discussing whether or not the country was built upon Christian values (and IT WAS) and whether or not the country (as in THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE) are Christian. They are.

I have already conceded that we could call the US a Christian country due to the number of Christians in America.

Our government is secular. You haven't provided any convincing evidence to the contrary.

 

[AllieBaba]

My contention was that we were founded upon Christian values, and we're a Christian nation. I proved that.

 

[Sky Dancer]

No. You didn't prove it Allie. You've repeated it alot, but haven't provided any evidence that the US government was founded upon Christianity.

I've provided several documents, the Treaty of Tripoli and the Constitution itself as proof that the US was NOT founded on Christianity.

I would add that there is no Christianity in the Declaration either.

 

[AllieBaba]

Look, Sky, I can't make you believe something you refuse to believe. I did prove it. You won't accept it, and you haven't even referenced it. I've asked you repeatedly how you manage to ignore the founders' own words about what they were building the country on, and you haven't answered. Because that's what you've done. Ignore. The founders (the FOUNDERS. They FOUNDED the country). said a free country could not take place without the guidance of God. They say in the Declaration of Independence, where they give their REASONS for breaking from England, that GOD gives men rights, and they are going to build a new country to see to it that those rights are provided to men. They discussed it among themselves, and with their families, with the churches of the day. Those documents remain, and provide the proof that they were intent on building a country on Christian values.

And you ignore it and continue to parrot that the founding fathers weren't Christian and our country wasn't founded on Christian principles.
I can't do much with that. Nobody can. It's willfull ignorance, and you seem to be proud of it.