This is why we need a living wage

[alan1]

Where are you getting your figures. Today's minimum wage won't even support one person at the poverty level.

40 hrs x $7.25 x 52 weeks=$15,080.

FPL 1 person=$11,670
2 person HH=$15,730
3 person HH=$19,790

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/14poverty.cfm

Ah, yes, except for the fact that minimum wage jobs only employ you for 30 hours a week, on average. That's to avoid paying any more benefits than they have to.

What "benefits" do they (employers) "have to" pay for, for employees working over 30 hours a week?
Think pre ACA and answer that question.
Hint: Aside from minimum wage it would be nothing.

 

[alan1]

What's wrong with doing what they enjoy? I HATED school and would only go back to a tech school of some kind without all the goofy pointless classes. I know others who are completely different and enjoyed school and want to go to college. Wages should be tied to inflation after we bump the minimum wage up to at least 10$ an hour.


I have. Many times.

So what you're saying is school was unpleasant for you so you are stuck flipping burgers and you think you are owed more money to do it?
Sorry, Charlie. Sitting right next to you in high school was another guy who hated school as well, but instead of dropping out, he sucked it up and graduated and got into a decent college. Guess what? He's making 10 times what you're making because he made himself more valuable to an employer.

Do you have any idea how many college educated people are out there working minimum wage jobs with loans up to the hilt? Our well paying jobs have left the country. Most of those working minimum wage are now adults.

2% of hourly paid workers, less when you add salaried workers.
Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers: 2012
snip,

Among hourly paid workers age 16 and over, about 10 percent of those who had less than a high school diploma earned the federal minimum wage or less, compared with about 4 percent of those who had a high school diploma (with no college) and about 2 percent of college graduates.

 

[sameech]

It's not about whether they work hard, it's about the value they produce to their employer.
If Bob works his ass off as a cashier at McDonalds, it doesn't matter how hard he works, he can't make a customer order any faster.

You know what is likely going to happen here? Companies like McDonalds are going to get tired of the people like the cashiers protesting for wages beyond their worth/value and then put in self-service kiosks for ordering. The cashier job will be eliminated and Bob will no longer have a job. Panera Bread is already moving that direction, grocery stores have already put in self check-out.
I suggest that Bob learns how to work on the machines that are going to replace his job if he wants to be employed.

I doubt MCDonalds would anytime soon. The cashiers at ours at least do several jobs like cashier, fill drinks, do the ice cream stuff, restock the coolers out front, try to upsell you--plus McD's customers tend to not be that up to date with technology (Old ladies, people with pockets full of wrinkled dollars and dimes, etc)

 

[Mathbud1]

It's not about whether they work hard, it's about the value they produce to their employer.
If Bob works his ass off as a cashier at McDonalds, it doesn't matter how hard he works, he can't make a customer order any faster.

You know what is likely going to happen here? Companies like McDonalds are going to get tired of the people like the cashiers protesting for wages beyond their worth/value and then put in self-service kiosks for ordering. The cashier job will be eliminated and Bob will no longer have a job. Panera Bread is already moving that direction, grocery stores have already put in self check-out.
I suggest that Bob learns how to work on the machines that are going to replace his job if he wants to be employed.

I doubt MCDonalds would anytime soon. The cashiers at ours at least do several jobs like cashier, fill drinks, do the ice cream stuff, restock the coolers out front, try to upsell you--plus McD's customers tend to not be that up to date with technology (Old ladies, people with pockets full of wrinkled dollars and dimes, etc)

Does Wal-Mart typically have a higher quality clientele do you think? Wal-Mart put in self checkout lanes for groceries years ago and those are way more complicated than the McDonald's ones would need to be. People learn when they need to. Even little old ladies and people with wrinkly money. And they can still have people filling drinks and ice cream and handing out food. They would just need fewer people.

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[alan1]

It's not about whether they work hard, it's about the value they produce to their employer.
If Bob works his ass off as a cashier at McDonalds, it doesn't matter how hard he works, he can't make a customer order any faster.

You know what is likely going to happen here? Companies like McDonalds are going to get tired of the people like the cashiers protesting for wages beyond their worth/value and then put in self-service kiosks for ordering. The cashier job will be eliminated and Bob will no longer have a job. Panera Bread is already moving that direction, grocery stores have already put in self check-out.
I suggest that Bob learns how to work on the machines that are going to replace his job if he wants to be employed.

I doubt MCDonalds would anytime soon. The cashiers at ours at least do several jobs like cashier, fill drinks, do the ice cream stuff, restock the coolers out front, try to upsell you--plus McD's customers tend to not be that up to date with technology (Old ladies, people with pockets full of wrinkled dollars and dimes, etc)

Remove the cashier function, and I bet it takes half as many people to fill drinks, do the ice cream stuff, restock the coolers, etc. They still fill drinks where you live? Around here, all the fast food places have the drink dispensers on the customer side of the counter.
My mom is an old lady (pushing 80), she can work the self checkout kiosk at the grocery store, so I'm sure she can push the button that has a picture of a cheeseburger on it.

 

[Mathbud1]

It's not about whether they work hard, it's about the value they produce to their employer.
If Bob works his ass off as a cashier at McDonalds, it doesn't matter how hard he works, he can't make a customer order any faster.

You know what is likely going to happen here? Companies like McDonalds are going to get tired of the people like the cashiers protesting for wages beyond their worth/value and then put in self-service kiosks for ordering. The cashier job will be eliminated and Bob will no longer have a job. Panera Bread is already moving that direction, grocery stores have already put in self check-out.
I suggest that Bob learns how to work on the machines that are going to replace his job if he wants to be employed.

I doubt MCDonalds would anytime soon. The cashiers at ours at least do several jobs like cashier, fill drinks, do the ice cream stuff, restock the coolers out front, try to upsell you--plus McD's customers tend to not be that up to date with technology (Old ladies, people with pockets full of wrinkled dollars and dimes, etc)

Remove the cashier function, and I bet it takes half as many people to fill drinks, do the ice cream stuff, restock the coolers, etc. They still fill drinks where you live? Around here, all the fast food places have the drink dispensers on the customer side of the counter.
My mom is an old lady (pushing 80), she can work the self checkout kiosk at the grocery store, so I'm sure she can push the button that has a picture of a cheeseburger on it.

Ha ha. So similar to what I just said.

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[sameech]

Remove the cashier function, and I bet it takes half as many people to fill drinks, do the ice cream stuff, restock the coolers, etc. They still fill drinks where you live? Around here, all the fast food places have the drink dispensers on the customer side of the counter.
My mom is an old lady (pushing 80), she can work the self checkout kiosk at the grocery store, so I'm sure she can push the button that has a picture of a cheeseburger on it.

Most of their drinks seem to be drive thru or some blended/flavored whatever. They have the fountains in the lobby but seems to me that most of it is pumping syrup out of some gallon jug to mix into whatever it is people are getting. Sure you can get rid of half your cashiers, but you are probably getting rid of half your customers in the process. McDonald's are already too slow. They are a lot quicker to take your order than they are to fill it. I have been in men's rooms right after a concert that were less crowded than those things become during peak times.

 

[alan1]

Remove the cashier function, and I bet it takes half as many people to fill drinks, do the ice cream stuff, restock the coolers, etc. They still fill drinks where you live? Around here, all the fast food places have the drink dispensers on the customer side of the counter.
My mom is an old lady (pushing 80), she can work the self checkout kiosk at the grocery store, so I'm sure she can push the button that has a picture of a cheeseburger on it.

Most of their drinks seem to be drive thru or some blended/flavored whatever. They have the fountains in the lobby but seems to me that most of it is pumping syrup out of some gallon jug to mix into whatever it is people are getting. Sure you can get rid of half your cashiers, but you are probably getting rid of half your customers in the process. McDonald's are already too slow. They are a lot quicker to take your order than they are to fill it. I have been in men's rooms right after a concert that were less crowded than those things become during peak times.

Do you believe grocery stores got rid of half their customers when they added self-service kiosks? (The correct answer is no).
You seem to be very good at just blurting out random statements of mediocre opinion with no basis in experiential reality.

 

[sameech]

Do you believe grocery stores got rid of half their customers when they added self-service kiosks? (The correct answer is no).
You seem to be very good at just blurting out random statements of mediocre opinion with no basis in experiential reality.

Not as good as you are with false comparisons, but if I interact with you enough, I am sure I will get the hang of it.

Cashiers in grocery stores do two functions--check you out and bag you. Those are more easily replaceable than someone getting your fries, your drinks, taking your lettuce off and putting more onions on your order. Restaurants tend not to do well if they become completely self-service because then they are called "vending machines".

 

[HenryBHough]

Do you believe grocery stores got rid of half their customers when they added self-service kiosks? (The correct answer is no).
You seem to be very good at just blurting out random statements of mediocre opinion with no basis in experiential reality.

Not as good as you are with false comparisons, but if I interact with you enough, I am sure I will get the hang of it.

Cashiers in grocery stores do two functions--check you out and bag you. Those are more easily replaceable than someone getting your fries, your drinks, taking your lettuce off and putting more onions on your order. Restaurants tend not to do well if they become completely self-service because then they are called "vending machines".

Actually they WERE called "Horn & Hardart".

 

[sameech]

Actually they WERE called "Horn & Hardart".

Thanks for the tube. I know they are popular in Japan but we are not Japan (which I thank God for every day).

The problem with people making this "raise MW and you will be replaced with a kiosk" apparently never bothered to read that Panera isn't shedding a single job as they install these things. They are not there to replace workers but to speed up orders which their cashiers will do more toward helping, not less.

 

[HenryBHough]

Thanks for the tube. I know they are popular in Japan but we are not Japan (which I thank God for every day).

It was a long time ago so my memory is vague.....I recall the Automats as still having popularity but the owners wanted out and considered the cost of converting thousands of machines to take paper money since nobody could carry enough in coins to buy much anymore. It just seemed futile.

Remember, they closed down before credit and debit cards became commonplace. Perhaps the concept could be brought back but the initial investment would be pretty high for each location.

 

[Againsheila]

You dont need to go to college to get a decent paying job. All you have to do is apply yourself. The wife and I didnt go to college and I retired at 46,she'll retire in two more years at 47.
If you dont aspire to be more then a stocker at the grocery store why in the hell should I subsidize that choice? Besides your stealing jobs from teenagers and old people. Have you no shame?

When minimum wage was created it could sustain a family of 3 over the poverty wage. You really don't think people work less hard today than they did then do you?

It's not about whether they work hard, it's about the value they produce to their employer.
If Bob works his ass off as a cashier at McDonalds, it doesn't matter how hard he works, he can't make a customer order any faster.

You know what is likely going to happen here? Companies like McDonalds are going to get tired of the people like the cashiers protesting for wages beyond their worth/value and then put in self-service kiosks for ordering. The cashier job will be eliminated and Bob will no longer have a job. Panera Bread is already moving that direction, grocery stores have already put in self check-out.
I suggest that Bob learns how to work on the machines that are going to replace his job if he wants to be employed.

Our Albertson's store took out their self check out. We customers refused to use it.

 

[HenryBHough]

Our Albertson's store took out their self check out. We customers refused to use it.

Albertson's is not alone. Other chains have reduced the number of machines. They were costing too much in labor.

Yes, in labor. They had to station at least one clerk at each bank of machines to help customers make the damn things work properly. But the real cost was the staff to restock the items (former) customers abandoned in carts and walked away to competitors when the frustration became sufficiently high.

 

[KissMy]

Unless you want to maximize the nanny state government, then you should establish policy that do not have the business, people & the economy relying on government.

Welfare & Entitlement Spending Way Up Under Bush & Down Under Clinton & Since Obama Took Office Because Raising Minimum Wages CUTS Government Spending.

The faster & higher you raise the minimum wage, the slower the dollar loses it's value.

I think you probably didn't mean this, but it sounds like you are recommending we raise the minimum wage to $100/hr since that is both faster and higher than I have ever heard recommended by anyone else.

Because most of the people on the government dole are working at a real job. Prices ALWAYS rise before wages because Government & Banks create money. Wages do not push or drive inflation & wage price spiral is a hoax.

You could be right. I don't know. I'm not an economist. What I do know is this: My relative who owns a small business couldn't absorb a huge increase in his employees' wages all at once. He would be borrowing money the first month he had to make the new payroll, and it would be downhill from there.

Higher minimum wages get workers off the government dole so government does not have to print more money causing inflation. Also higher minimum wages means Government does not have to guarantee bank home or business loans causing inflation because underpaid workers default at high rates.

Raising Wages increases employment & CUTS Government Spending. Socialism is when employers make government tax payers pay for their workers so they can drive others out of business & pocket everyone else's wealth. If you don't like the minimum wage then pass a law banning employment of someone on the government dole. Because I already pay my workers & should not have to keep subsidizing yours, harming my business. Employment rises as wages & minimum wages rise.

Again, if there is no negative impact to raising wages why do we stop at a merely "living wage." Let's bump everyone up to a "partying wage" and really get the economy rocking.

Obviously you are being stupid. Raising minimum to your ridiculous $100 is well beyond the increased productivity rate of $22 would cause wage push inflation. However raising the rate up to $12 will get the max number of workers off government dole, shrinking government spending, size & inflation while creating more private sector jobs.

 

[Mathbud1]

Unless you want to maximize the nanny state government, then you should establish policy that do not have the business, people & the economy relying on government.

Welfare & Entitlement Spending Way Up Under Bush & Down Under Clinton & Since Obama Took Office Because Raising Minimum Wages CUTS Government Spending.

The faster & higher you raise the minimum wage, the slower the dollar loses it's value.

I think you probably didn't mean this, but it sounds like you are recommending we raise the minimum wage to $100/hr since that is both faster and higher than I have ever heard recommended by anyone else.



You could be right. I don't know. I'm not an economist. What I do know is this: My relative who owns a small business couldn't absorb a huge increase in his employees' wages all at once. He would be borrowing money the first month he had to make the new payroll, and it would be downhill from there.

Higher minimum wages get workers off the government dole so government does not have to print more money causing inflation. Also higher minimum wages means Government does not have to guarantee bank home or business loans causing inflation because underpaid workers default at high rates.

Raising Wages increases employment & CUTS Government Spending. Socialism is when employers make government tax payers pay for their workers so they can drive others out of business & pocket everyone else's wealth. If you don't like the minimum wage then pass a law banning employment of someone on the government dole. Because I already pay my workers & should not have to keep subsidizing yours, harming my business. Employment rises as wages & minimum wages rise.

Again, if there is no negative impact to raising wages why do we stop at a merely "living wage." Let's bump everyone up to a "partying wage" and really get the economy rocking.

Obviously you are being stupid. Raising minimum to your ridiculous $100 is well beyond the increased productivity rate of $22 would cause wage push inflation. However raising the rate up to $12 will get the max number of workers off government dole, shrinking government spending, size & inflation while creating more private sector jobs.

I did say I didn't think you actually meant that. You should be a little more careful maybe in what you say though because it really really came across that way.

You seemed to be advocating pushing the minimum wage up as fast and high as possible. Now you've backed off somewhat to only pitching for raising it to $12. If faster and higher is better why stop at 12? What makes 12 the magic number suddenly? Might there be adverse effects to raising it too high too fast? What would keep those effects from manifesting with smaller increases?

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[sameech]

It was a long time ago so my memory is vague.....I recall the Automats as still having popularity but the owners wanted out and considered the cost of converting thousands of machines to take paper money since nobody could carry enough in coins to buy much anymore. It just seemed futile.

Remember, they closed down before credit and debit cards became commonplace. Perhaps the concept could be brought back but the initial investment would be pretty high for each location.

I have been to 4 different hospitals this year visiting and they all had credit/debit swipes on their vending machines. In places like that where folks' focus is on other things, it makes sense. I am not sure paying too much money for food you still have to nuke would do as well if people weren't so captive to the location as they are with hospitals.

 

[Mathbud1]

Our Albertson's store took out their self check out. We customers refused to use it.

Albertson's is not alone. Other chains have reduced the number of machines. They were costing too much in labor.

Yes, in labor. They had to station at least one clerk at each bank of machines to help customers make the damn things work properly. But the real cost was the staff to restock the items (former) customers abandoned in carts and walked away to competitors when the frustration became sufficiently high.

I don't know where you live, but around here they aren't reducing the number of self checkout kiosks. They are increasing them. Our closest Wal-Mart just doubled the number they had. These days they only ever have 1 or two manned registers open most times. And 1 attendant easily manages all the self checkout kiosks they have running.

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[sameech]

I don't know where you live, but around here they aren't reducing the number of self checkout kiosks. They are increasing them. Our closest Wal-Mart just doubled the number they had. These days they only ever have 1 or two manned registers open most times. And 1 attendant easily manages all the self checkout kiosks they have running.

Our Walmart has them at either end of register row but most people still use the regular/express checkouts. Kiosks are a hassle if you are buying a lot, large items, alcohol, R-rated movies, anything with a security device, because of having to keep everything on the scales or still getting customer service approval.

 

[Mathbud1]

Do you believe grocery stores got rid of half their customers when they added self-service kiosks? (The correct answer is no).
You seem to be very good at just blurting out random statements of mediocre opinion with no basis in experiential reality.

Not as good as you are with false comparisons, but if I interact with you enough, I am sure I will get the hang of it.

Cashiers in grocery stores do two functions--check you out and bag you. Those are more easily replaceable than someone getting your fries, your drinks, taking your lettuce off and putting more onions on your order. Restaurants tend not to do well if they become completely self-service because then they are called "vending machines".

Cashiers at most places don't modify the orders. By the time the cashier touches it there isn't much more to do than hand you the tray. It isn't exactly rocket science, and it isn't a five star restaurant.

For all I know McDonald's could have already considered and discarded the idea of having automated kiosks. But if labor becomes expensive enough you can bet they are going to take another look at it.

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