Thomas Jefferson - Christian or Deist?

[Agit8r]

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator."

According to modern men ... Jefferson was NOT a Christian but according to Jefferson, he was. Who do you believe?

Jefferson agreed with his friend Dr. Priestly on most things religious. He was a unitarian (as the quote you cite tells us explicitly).

He was of course for a secular government, as was of the founding generation in general.

' an experiment was made on the reverence entertained for the name & sanctity of the Saviour, by proposing to insert the words "Jesus Christ" after the words "our lord" in the preamble, the object of which, would have been, to imply a restriction of the liberty defined in the Bill, to those professing his religion only. The amendment was discussed, and rejected... The opponents of the amendment having turned the feeling as well as judgment of the House agst it, by successfully contending that the better proof of reverence for that holy name wd be not to profane it by making it a topic of legisl. discussion, & particularly by making his religion the means of abridging the natural and equal rights of all men, in defiance of his own declaration that his Kingdom was not of this world '
-- James Madison; from 'Detached Memoranda'

 

[AtheistBuddah]

What does it matter? He could have believed anything. What matters is the law, not the personal beliefs of one man.

It'll matter come Judgement Day. What a man believes is almost always manifested into what a man does. A man with a high moral standard will generally do moral things.

But having a high moral standard does not require religious belief. I myself am a very moral and generous person that truly wishes the betterment of all mankind but I don't hold any religious beliefs.

 

[MaxGrit]

What does it matter? He could have believed anything. What matters is the law, not the personal beliefs of one man.

It'll matter come Judgement Day. What a man believes is almost always manifested into what a man does. A man with a high moral standard will generally do moral things.

But having a high moral standard does not require religious belief. I myself am a very moral and generous person that truly wishes the betterment of all mankind but I don't hold any religious beliefs.

God is the standard. You believe.

 

[Agit8r]

In Jefferson's day, slave ownership wasn't really immoral. Americans generally accepted the institution, though among them, a few (like the founders) were beginning to note conflict between slavery and our radical Whig ideas of liberty and equality.

So.... morality depends upon the standards of the day?

 

[AtheistBuddah]

It'll matter come Judgement Day. What a man believes is almost always manifested into what a man does. A man with a high moral standard will generally do moral things.

But having a high moral standard does not require religious belief. I myself am a very moral and generous person that truly wishes the betterment of all mankind but I don't hold any religious beliefs.

God is the standard. You believe.

Oh do I now? Do you spend every minute of every day with me? Do you hear all that I say and see all that I do? Of course not, so don't claim to know what I believe. God is not my standard because no such being exists and even if it did I would still reject it as my moral standard because of the many contradictions and hypocrisies found in the Bible.

 

[DriftingSand]

=guno;9546096]The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823,

Link to actual document, please.

The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.

Your nonsensical trolling has been addressed on numerous occasions. I realize that civil and intelligent conversation doesn't come easy for you and that you're blinded by your hatred for Jesus Christ Christians but blind hatred does not a factual statement make. Go take a toke off of your bong and go back to sleep.

 

[DriftingSand]

=guno;9546226]"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible...Some books on Deism fell into my hands...It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared much stronger than the refutations; in short I soon became a thorough deist."
-Benjamin Franklin, "Toward the Mystery" (autobiography)

The thread is about Thomas Jefferson ... not Benjamin Franklin.

"When the clergy addressed General Washington on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation, that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address, as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice....he never did say a word of it in any of his public papers...Governor Morris has often told me that General Washington believed no more of that (Christian) system than he himself did.
-Thomas Jefferson, diary entry, 2/1/1799

The thread is about Thomas Jefferson ... not George Washington.

 

[DriftingSand]

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator."

According to modern men ... Jefferson was NOT a Christian but according to Jefferson, he was. Who do you believe?

Jefferson agreed with his friend Dr. Priestly on most things religious. He was a unitarian (as the quote you cite tells us explicitly).

He was of course for a secular government, as was of the founding generation in general.

' an experiment was made on the reverence entertained for the name & sanctity of the Saviour, by proposing to insert the words "Jesus Christ" after the words "our lord" in the preamble, the object of which, would have been, to imply a restriction of the liberty defined in the Bill, to those professing his religion only. The amendment was discussed, and rejected... The opponents of the amendment having turned the feeling as well as judgment of the House agst it, by successfully contending that the better proof of reverence for that holy name wd be not to profane it by making it a topic of legisl. discussion, & particularly by making his religion the means of abridging the natural and equal rights of all men, in defiance of his own declaration that his Kingdom was not of this world '
-- James Madison; from 'Detached Memoranda'

Actually, Jefferson was raised in the Anglican Church. He attended various church services on a regular basis throughout his life. He also allowed church serviced to be held in the Capitol Building Rotunda.

As all of us are, he was influenced throughout his life by various individuals of varying beliefs or philosophies. That's not unusual. I was influenced by Eastern Religion many years ago and I even went through a stage which can only be titled "satanic" for a time. Since becoming a Christian, my views of Christ and the Bible have changed from simple, early, innocent Christianity to the "Hebrew Roots" belief to what I now call "Bible Only Christianity" with a strong lean towards New Testament teachings.

Whatever the case may be, Jefferson considered himself to be a Christian (by his own pen) and paid homage to the Person of Christ. I can't say that I know his heart. He, like all of us, will stand before Jesus Christ on Judgement day the result of which no man knows.

 

[Agit8r]

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator."

According to modern men ... Jefferson was NOT a Christian but according to Jefferson, he was. Who do you believe?

Jefferson agreed with his friend Dr. Priestly on most things religious. He was a unitarian (as the quote you cite tells us explicitly).

He was of course for a secular government, as was of the founding generation in general.

' an experiment was made on the reverence entertained for the name & sanctity of the Saviour, by proposing to insert the words "Jesus Christ" after the words "our lord" in the preamble, the object of which, would have been, to imply a restriction of the liberty defined in the Bill, to those professing his religion only. The amendment was discussed, and rejected... The opponents of the amendment having turned the feeling as well as judgment of the House agst it, by successfully contending that the better proof of reverence for that holy name wd be not to profane it by making it a topic of legisl. discussion, & particularly by making his religion the means of abridging the natural and equal rights of all men, in defiance of his own declaration that his Kingdom was not of this world '
-- James Madison; from 'Detached Memoranda'

Actually, Jefferson was raised in the Anglican Church. He attended various church services on a regular basis throughout his life. He also allowed church serviced to be held in the Capitol Building Rotunda.

As all of us are, he was influenced throughout his life by various individuals of varying beliefs or philosophies. That's not unusual. I was influenced by Eastern Religion many years ago and I even went through a stage which can only be titled "satanic" for a time. Since becoming a Christian, my views of Christ and the Bible have changed from simple, early, innocent Christianity to the "Hebrew Roots" belief to what I now call "Bible Only Christianity" with a strong lean towards New Testament teachings.

Whatever the case may be, Jefferson considered himself to be a Christian (by his own pen) and paid homage to the Person of Christ. I can't say that I know his heart. He, like all of us, will stand before Jesus Christ on Judgement day the result of which no man knows.

That's fine and all. The historical fact however, is that Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus. He also believed that his belief was the "true" Christianity.

"Epictetus and Epicurus give laws for governing ourselves, Jesus a supplement of the duties and charities we owe to others. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent moralist, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects, and unauthorized by a single word ever uttered by him... would in time, it is to be hoped, effect a quiet euthanasia of the heresies of bigotry and fanaticism which have so long triumphed over human reason, and so generally and deeply afflicted mankind"
-- Thomas Jefferson; from letter to William Short (October 31, 1819)

 

[MaxGrit]

Jefferson agreed with his friend Dr. Priestly on most things religious. He was a unitarian (as the quote you cite tells us explicitly).

He was of course for a secular government, as was of the founding generation in general.

' an experiment was made on the reverence entertained for the name & sanctity of the Saviour, by proposing to insert the words "Jesus Christ" after the words "our lord" in the preamble, the object of which, would have been, to imply a restriction of the liberty defined in the Bill, to those professing his religion only. The amendment was discussed, and rejected... The opponents of the amendment having turned the feeling as well as judgment of the House agst it, by successfully contending that the better proof of reverence for that holy name wd be not to profane it by making it a topic of legisl. discussion, & particularly by making his religion the means of abridging the natural and equal rights of all men, in defiance of his own declaration that his Kingdom was not of this world '
-- James Madison; from 'Detached Memoranda'

Actually, Jefferson was raised in the Anglican Church. He attended various church services on a regular basis throughout his life. He also allowed church serviced to be held in the Capitol Building Rotunda.

As all of us are, he was influenced throughout his life by various individuals of varying beliefs or philosophies. That's not unusual. I was influenced by Eastern Religion many years ago and I even went through a stage which can only be titled "satanic" for a time. Since becoming a Christian, my views of Christ and the Bible have changed from simple, early, innocent Christianity to the "Hebrew Roots" belief to what I now call "Bible Only Christianity" with a strong lean towards New Testament teachings.

Whatever the case may be, Jefferson considered himself to be a Christian (by his own pen) and paid homage to the Person of Christ. I can't say that I know his heart. He, like all of us, will stand before Jesus Christ on Judgement day the result of which no man knows.

That's fine and all. The historical fact however, is that Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus. He also believed that his belief was the "true" Christianity.

A crafty lie that relies on the authority of fictional historical facts. Easy-to-use for misleading those are not familiar with history.

 

[peach174]

Jefferson made it abundantly clear that he perceived a "wall of separation between church and state" so we should respect that when it comes to his legacy. Jefferson gave us the Constitution and his legacy should not be hijacked by those with a religious agenda in my opinion.* And for the record, I have every reason to think that Jefferson would agree with my opinion.

I realize that modern "educators" have a mandate to sell the idea that Jefferson was for a "wall of separation" but that, too, isn't completely true. Jefferson wanted to protect religion from government but he was not opposed to the idea of religious folks influencing government. That's another reason why it's important for me to reveal his religious standards (considering the fact that his moral beliefs had a direct influence on the Constitution that he helped write).

Jefferson wanted to protect the people from the excesses of religion too. The FF's were educated men who knew all about the "divine right of kings" and the bloody wars between the Catholics and Protestants.

So the logical choice of separating religion from government was pragmatic because it meant that there would be a Constitutional means to keep out undue influence.

Yes, you are correct that they had no intention of requiring religious folks to renounce their beliefs when assuming office. What was intended was that they would not use those beliefs when making policy decisions.

Just as you rail against the secularists having an "agenda" there is a religious "agenda" that is trying to impose religious beliefs as law. As far as I am concerned the wall of separation is needed today more than ever.

You raised the subject of morals so I am going to pose a question to you. Is it moral to force everyone to use the term "under God" when they say the pledge of allegiance?

NO one is forcing you to use the words under God. You have the freedom to remain silent when everyone else is saying it or to use another like Allah or Buddha or whatever you want.

The secularists is what is teaching that false information.
When Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists about separation of church and state he was saying he could not do anything about it and that the Danbury Baptists had to do it though their State. Which they did. It had nothing to do with keeping religion out of the government.
Letter written to President Jefferson from the Danbury Baptists.
The Danbury Baptist's letter to Jefferson

Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists.
Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists (June 1998) - Library of Congress Information Bulletin

 

[Agit8r]

Actually, Jefferson was raised in the Anglican Church. He attended various church services on a regular basis throughout his life. He also allowed church serviced to be held in the Capitol Building Rotunda.

As all of us are, he was influenced throughout his life by various individuals of varying beliefs or philosophies. That's not unusual. I was influenced by Eastern Religion many years ago and I even went through a stage which can only be titled "satanic" for a time. Since becoming a Christian, my views of Christ and the Bible have changed from simple, early, innocent Christianity to the "Hebrew Roots" belief to what I now call "Bible Only Christianity" with a strong lean towards New Testament teachings.

Whatever the case may be, Jefferson considered himself to be a Christian (by his own pen) and paid homage to the Person of Christ. I can't say that I know his heart. He, like all of us, will stand before Jesus Christ on Judgement day the result of which no man knows.

That's fine and all. The historical fact however, is that Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus. He also believed that his belief was the "true" Christianity.

A crafty lie that relies on the authority of fictional historical facts. Easy-to-use for misleading those are not familiar with history.

No. It just requires some reading comprehension:

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator."

doesn't get any clearer than that

 

[JakeStarkey]

There are many Secularists as well as some Christians who believe that Jefferson was a Deist (believer in an impersonal God but denier of the personal Savior, Jesus Christ) but is this a true conclusion? There are a number of good men and historians who say nay.

And they would be wrong. TJ might be accepted as an Universalist or a very liberal Anglican today, because he did not believe in Jesus as savior, the resurrection, the virgin birth, miracle, and so forth.

 

[JakeStarkey]

When Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists about separation of church and state he was saying he could not do anything about it and that the Danbury Baptists had to do it though their State. Which they did. It had nothing to do with keeping religion out of the government.
Letter written to President Jefferson from the Danbury Baptists.

In fact, TJ was commiserating with the Danbury religionists, and in TJ's who life he fought to keep church and state as separated as possible.

 

[JakeStarkey]

=guno;9546096]The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823,

Link to actual document, please.

The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.

Your nonsensical trolling has been addressed on numerous occasions. I realize that civil and intelligent conversation doesn't come easy for you and that you're blinded by your hatred for Jesus Christ Christians but blind hatred does not a factual statement make. Go take a toke off of your bong and go back to sleep.

And your attitude is such that we are very wise to have a separation of church and state as much as we do today. It should be absolute.

 

[Agit8r]

I have received and read with thankfulness and pleasure your denunciation of the abuses of tobacco and wine. Yet, however sound in its principles, I expect it will be but a sermon to the wind. You will find it as difficult to inculcate these sanative precepts on the sensualities of the present day, as to convince an Athanasian that there is but one God. I wish success to both attempts, and am happy to learn from you that the latter, at least, is making progress, and the more rapidly in proportion as our Platonizing Christians make more stir and noise about it. The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.

That there is one only God, and he all perfect.
That there is a future state of rewards and punishments.
That to love God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself, is the sum of religion.


These are the great points on which he endeavored to reform the religion of the Jews. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.

That there are three Gods.
That good works, or the love of our neighbor, are nothing.
That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit in its faith.
That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save.

Now, which of these is the true and charitable Christian? He who believes and acts on the simple doctrines of Jesus? Or the impious dogmatists, as Athanasius and Calvin? Verily I say these are the false shepherds foretold as to enter not by the door into the sheepfold, but to climb up some other way. They are mere usurpers of the Christian name, teaching a counter-religion made up of the deliria of crazy imaginations, as foreign from Christianity as is that of Mahomet. Their blasphemies have driven thinking men into infidelity, who have too hastily rejected the supposed author himself, with the horrors so falsely imputed to him. Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips, the whole civilized world would now have been Christian. I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its creed and conscience to neither kings nor priests, the genuine doctrine of one only God is reviving, and I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die an Unitarian.

But much I fear, that when this great truth shall be re-established, its votaries will fall into the fatal error of fabricating formulas of creed and confessions of faith, the engines which so soon destroyed the religion of Jesus, and made of Christendom a mere Aceldama; that they will give up morals for mysteries, and Jesus for Plato. How much wiser are the Quakers, who, agreeing in the fundamental doctrines of the gospel, schismatize about no mysteries, and, keeping within the pale of common sense, suffer no speculative differences of opinion, any more than of feature, to impair the love of their brethren. Be this the wisdom of Unitarians, this the holy mantle which shall cover within its charitable circumference all who believe in one God, and who love their neighbor!

-- Thomas Jefferson; from letter to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse Monticello, June 26, 1822

To Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse Monticello, June 26, 1822 < The Letters of Thomas Jefferson 1743-1826 < Thomas Jefferson < Presidents < American History From Revolution To Reconstruction and beyond