Those of you who are Christians do know better, and shame

[bendog]

I had much the same thought the other day, but I didn't post because I thought the idea was fertile territory for oversimplification, as the Trumpbots' responses to your post. Note Startford, the Putintool, among them. You will know them by their fruits. Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:15-20 - New Revised Standard Version

BUT, the point may be that Christians don't necessarily have to give up national borders, but the Trump policy admitted to being based on removing CHILDREN to punish parents' behavior. THAT cannot be morally defended no matter what code one ascribes too.

No one really knows what the current policy is. Border patrol is as confused as the migrants. Do we have amnesty? At what points? Only authorized points of entry?

We were sending families back without court orders BEFORE Trump. He changed that. Now apparently he proposes housing them in tent cities till we get around to deporting them with a court hearing. Why? He says he wants to treat this criminally rather than civilly. And to do that, he proposes to spend how much?

In short, Trump's pronouncements are political and not really aimed at addressing the immigration problem. And by that you shall know them by their fruits.

When parents commit a crime, they are separated from their children as part of their punishment.

When parents abuse their children, their children at removed as punishment for their behavior.

When parents are so lost in drug use they can’t take care of the child the government removes the child as punishment for the parents behavior.

That is clearly not the standard we should be applying

Government removes children from parents to punish them for their behavior all the time without anyone objecting.

Perhaps you can give an example.

If you read my post you would see I already have

Your post's examples don't support punishing children. JFC. Are you really a Mormon? Damn.

He certainly claims that he is LDS.

Mine was sort of a cheap shot. But not meant to diss LDS. I lived for four years in a predominantly LDS town. The LDS folks tended to sit apart from other groups, but with reason. It was a bit weird in that polygamy was common in the hinterland, and the LDS church had an odd sort of look the other way attitude. It can be argued the polygamy is harmful to girls who tend to not leave the lifeystlye, but even if you lean libertarian, it's pretty hard to ignore the fact that adolescent males are pretty much driven from the heard so as to prevent competition to the older bulls.

But the LDS church itself is surprisingly progressive on kids, or surprisingly to outsiders. Education for women is supported because single families are a reality. Homes with alcoholic or abusive parents are definitely discouraged. And the community can be pretty protective of kids in those situations.

 

[Avatar4321]

. . . on those of you who have put politics above Christian love.

This is going to end very badly politically for Trump and his defenders.

The spiritual consequences are between our Lord and Savior and the persecutors.

They better get their mill stones ready.

I had much the same thought the other day, but I didn't post because I thought the idea was fertile territory for oversimplification, as the Trumpbots' responses to your post. Note Startford, the Putintool, among them. You will know them by their fruits. Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:15-20 - New Revised Standard Version

BUT, the point may be that Christians don't necessarily have to give up national borders, but the Trump policy admitted to being based on removing CHILDREN to punish parents' behavior. THAT cannot be morally defended no matter what code one ascribes too.

No one really knows what the current policy is. Border patrol is as confused as the migrants. Do we have amnesty? At what points? Only authorized points of entry?

We were sending families back without court orders BEFORE Trump. He changed that. Now apparently he proposes housing them in tent cities till we get around to deporting them with a court hearing. Why? He says he wants to treat this criminally rather than civilly. And to do that, he proposes to spend how much?

In short, Trump's pronouncements are political and not really aimed at addressing the immigration problem. And by that you shall know them by their fruits.

When parents commit a crime, they are separated from their children as part of their punishment.

When parents abuse their children, their children at removed as punishment for their behavior.

When parents are so lost in drug use they can’t take care of the child the government removes the child as punishment for the parents behavior.

That is clearly not the standard we should be applying

Government removes children from parents to punish them for their behavior all the time without anyone objecting.

Perhaps you can give an example.

If you read my post you would see I already have

Your post's examples don't support punishing children. JFC. Are you really a Mormon? Damn.

First, we were talking about punishing parents, which you brought up, not punishing children.

Second, having worked with juveniles who have been separated from their parents, many do see it as a punishment even if it is in their best interest.

Third, since we all accept that there are indeed times to split children from parents I see little reason to assume that at least some of these reasons are not present in border crossings.

1) we have no clue who these people are. They often have no documentation and assuming that these adults are their parents seems naive considering these are the areas human trafficking frequently occurs. It seems to me that when adults deliberately go to great lengths to avoid authorities we would have a responsibility to question whether they are these children’s parents and not child smugglers. If we care about the children why are we supposed to ignore this concern?

2) If these children did come with their parents, there parents just put them through dangerous and deadly as well as unsanitary conditions. It seems reasonable that we should investigate for the same reason CPS is called for investigating similar circumstances in our community.

It appears to me that caring for the children is a bit more nuanced than just the black and white issue the media has been presenting. And yet no one address these valid and reasonable concerns. Instead it’s all “if you don’t agree with me you are heartless!” Or “Trump is evil!”

Am I wrong for wanting an actual discussion on the matter? One without this dishonest and emotionally charged rhetoric ?

 

[JakeStarkey]

This, and your church agrees, Avatar, that this situation was not one of those times to separate children from parents.

It seems to me your church's position is far more nuanced than yours.

 

[bendog]

I had much the same thought the other day, but I didn't post because I thought the idea was fertile territory for oversimplification, as the Trumpbots' responses to your post. Note Startford, the Putintool, among them. You will know them by their fruits. Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:15-20 - New Revised Standard Version

BUT, the point may be that Christians don't necessarily have to give up national borders, but the Trump policy admitted to being based on removing CHILDREN to punish parents' behavior. THAT cannot be morally defended no matter what code one ascribes too.

No one really knows what the current policy is. Border patrol is as confused as the migrants. Do we have amnesty? At what points? Only authorized points of entry?

We were sending families back without court orders BEFORE Trump. He changed that. Now apparently he proposes housing them in tent cities till we get around to deporting them with a court hearing. Why? He says he wants to treat this criminally rather than civilly. And to do that, he proposes to spend how much?

In short, Trump's pronouncements are political and not really aimed at addressing the immigration problem. And by that you shall know them by their fruits.

When parents commit a crime, they are separated from their children as part of their punishment.

When parents abuse their children, their children at removed as punishment for their behavior.

When parents are so lost in drug use they can’t take care of the child the government removes the child as punishment for the parents behavior.

That is clearly not the standard we should be applying

Government removes children from parents to punish them for their behavior all the time without anyone objecting.

Perhaps you can give an example.

If you read my post you would see I already have

Your post's examples don't support punishing children. JFC. Are you really a Mormon? Damn.

First, we were talking about punishing parents, which you brought up, not punishing children.

Second, having worked with juveniles who have been separated from their parents, many do see it as a punishment even if it is in their best interest.

Third, since we all accept that there are indeed times to split children from parents I see little reason to assume that at least some of these reasons are not present in border crossings.

1) we have no clue who these people are. They often have no documentation and assuming that these adults are their parents seems naive considering these are the areas human trafficking frequently occurs. It seems to me that when adults deliberately go to great lengths to avoid authorities we would have a responsibility to question whether they are these children’s parents and not child smugglers. If we care about the children why are we supposed to ignore this concern?

2) If these children did come with their parents, there parents just put them through dangerous and deadly as well as unsanitary conditions. It seems reasonable that we should investigate for the same reason CPS is called for investigating similar circumstances in our community.

It appears to me that caring for the children is a bit more nuanced than just the black and white issue the media has been presenting. And yet no one address these valid and reasonable concerns. Instead it’s all “if you don’t agree with me you are heartless!” Or “Trump is evil!”

Am I wrong for wanting an actual discussion on the matter? One without this dishonest and emotionally charged rhetoric ?

It is permissible and recommended to remove children when parents present a danger to their kids. Addicts, sexual predators even the mentally ill under limited circumstances.

The only danger from these parents was that unless Trump sent them back without within 20 days of their arrest, without any "guilty" court finding, the kids would be housed with adults in a lockup, and prior court orders require those kids to be placed in foster care preferably with a relative. Nothing required Trump to jail the parents. Trump chose to because he expressly said he wasn't sending them back in 20 days because parents coming here with children will never see their children again. He took parents away from the children to punish the parents, but not surprisingly this to punished the children to make entire families unhappy.

Its ok to be against illegal immigration. Most of us are. But it is NOT ok under the US Constitution or any Christian module to punish children to punish their parents.

The weirdness of US immigration is that a parent can come here with a kid, and get arrested and eventually deported, but their kid will go into foster care and be here ..... indefinitely. Parent and child will not see each other ever again, legally, unless the child risks visiting a for country. That's a hard decision but some families make it.

Unless they are just sent back in 20 days without any court involvement, the only way to deport both parent and child is "catch and release." They get out of jail in 20 days and are supposed to come back for a later court hearing. Problem is they don't show up.

Personally, I think Our first priority in deportation should be criminals. With families, we send everyone back we can in 20 days without any criminal charges. They may come back later, but they can never reside here legally. They'd always be susceptible to arrest and eventual deportation. If a parent and child are arrested, then separate them and keep the parent in jail until deportation. The consequence is we just created another Dreamer. A kid who will be educated here, and when they reach 21 will no longer have legal status. Imo, sadly, they too should be deported.

 

[EGR one]

. . . on those of you who have put politics above Christian love.

This is going to end very badly politically for Trump and his defenders.

The spiritual consequences are between our Lord and Savior and the persecutors.

They better get their mill stones ready.

So housing children and feeding them is “un-Christian” now?

Separating them from their parents? Yes, it surely is an unholy act.

So is child protective services separating children from their parents unchristian?

Fucking unbelievable.
You're really going to draw this comparison?
I had to call CPS once a long time ago because the woman next door was passed out in her bathroom from a drug overdose and her 8-year-old kid was wandering around in the street crying.
That's not what this is about you stupid fucking biased idiot.

It really is Fake Jake. If separating children from their parents is unholy, then it is not just unholy when you loons see political advantage to declare it so. Anytime that a parent is arrested, for any reason, they are separated from their children. Sometimes for years.

Some of these children suffer greatly, and just about all are scarred to some degree. But, these are American children, and obviously do not rate the attention given to non citizens. Left wing loons have always been good at selective outrage for political gain. You are no exception.

 

[JakeStarkey]

This needs to be repeated: "If separating children from their parents is unholy, then it is not just unholy when you loons see political advantage to declare it so."

And so does this, in rebuttal: "Its ok to be against illegal immigration. Most of us are. But it is NOT ok under the US Constitution or any Christian module to punish children to punish their parents." The parents want a better life for their children and themselves. That is not criminal.

Taking children in the dark of the night to strangers at foster care eerily echoes fascist behavior seventy years ago. For shame.

Those of you who support Trump on this, go fetch your mill stones and report to the lake.

 

[Dragonlady]

. . . on those of you who have put politics above Christian love.

This is going to end very badly politically for Trump and his defenders.

We don’t want to other countries problems, that’s what these illegal aliens are.
We should just let them motherfuckers rot in Mexico

The United States created these problems by propping up generation after generation of right wing dictators who plundered their countries’ treasuries and abused their populations. But hey. Better dead than red.

The USA exported to MS13 gang from Los Angeles to El Salvador. It’s headquarters are in Los Angeles and most of its members live in the US. Trump never mentions that.

So having created these problems and these refugees and now you don’t want to take responsibility for the mess you’ve created. Just like US Middle East policy created the Syrian refugee crisis and then banned Syrian refugees.

Typical Republicans. Make a mess and then refuse to clean it up. And just for good measure, blame others for the mess YOU created.

 

[IsaacNewton]

Most of the people here are not Christians, they like to claim that 'cuz it makes the feel good' but they aren't. Most people that claim that moniker are not Christians. It's one of those odd things where most people who wail most vehemently about being Christians are not. They in fact believe in and act in opposition to everything Christ said and taught. But they don't care, they use that religion as Isis uses Islam, as a weapon to oppress other human beings.

If you look what happens when conservatives gain power they always find groups of people that they can keep a boot on their neck. Mexicans, Muslims, Jews, blacks, women, American Indians. The list is endless. They have some inborn need to force other people to do things. This is also why they like guns, its the same reason gang members like guns, it makes them feel powerful. They get to force other people to do things. And for many cons they hide their animal desires behind religion as if it makes their debauchery noble.

It doesn't of course, but for them all they need is to FEEL good about what they do and that is all that matters. They aren't Christians.

 

[Dragonlady]

. . . on those of you who have put politics above Christian love.

This is going to end very badly politically for Trump and his defenders.

The spiritual consequences are between our Lord and Savior and the persecutors.

They better get their mill stones ready.

So housing children and feeding them is “un-Christian” now?

Separating them, often brutally, from their parents is un-Christian. Leaving them crying for hours is Un-Christian. It’s child abuse so profound and so terrifying for young children that both the children and their parents will have lifelong psychological and developmental problems as a result.

The primary need of children is the security and love of their parents. without that, children don’t grow or thrive, even if their physical needs are met.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

This needs to be repeated: "If separating children from their parents is unholy, then it is not just unholy when you loons see political advantage to declare it so."

And so does this, in rebuttal: "Its ok to be against illegal immigration. Most of us are. But it is NOT ok under the US Constitution or any Christian module to punish children to punish their parents." The parents want a better life for their children and themselves. That is not criminal.

Taking children in the dark of the night to strangers at foster care eerily echoes fascist behavior seventy years ago. For shame.

Those of you who support Trump on this, go fetch your mill stones and report to the lake.

Clinton, O and W did this and now the wringing of hands and deep soul searching. Lol. Sorry JS, croc tears are laughable at this point.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

. . . on those of you who have put politics above Christian love.

This is going to end very badly politically for Trump and his defenders.

The spiritual consequences are between our Lord and Savior and the persecutors.

They better get their mill stones ready.

So housing children and feeding them is “un-Christian” now?

Separating them, often brutally, from their parents is un-Christian. Leaving them crying for hours is Un-Christian. It’s child abuse so profound and so terrifying for young children that both the children and their parents will have lifelong psychological and developmental problems as a result.

The primary need of children is the security and love of their parents. without that, children don’t grow or thrive, even if their physical needs are met.

Awwww. O caged em and wrapped em in foil. PP has killed millions through separation. Your concerns fall on deaf ears.

 

[Dragonlady]

Separating them from their parents? Yes, it surely is an unholy act.

When parents illegally sneak their children across the border and make them accomplices in a criminal act.

Is that also an unholy act? ....

The children have no intent to break the law and are therefore not “accomplices”. Babies and toddlers don’t even know what laws are.

 

[buckeye45_73]

. . . on those of you who have put politics above Christian love.

This is going to end very badly politically for Trump and his defenders.

The spiritual consequences are between our Lord and Savior and the persecutors.

They better get their mill stones ready.

fakey jakey with another I love the left post..

don't preach about Christianity, you don't know what it means.

 

[JakeStarkey]

buckeye is an atheist, so I am not concerned with his concept of Christian ethics and duties.

He is ignorant, but a decent sense of humanity should override. In his case, it does not.

This will end badly for Trump and his anti-immigrant supporters. He has already tried to reverse himself.

 

[Rustic]

. . . on those of you who have put politics above Christian love.

This is going to end very badly politically for Trump and his defenders.

We don’t want to other countries problems, that’s what these illegal aliens are.
We should just let them motherfuckers rot in Mexico

The United States created these problems by propping up generation after generation of right wing dictators who plundered their countries’ treasuries and abused their populations. But hey. Better dead than red.

The USA exported to MS13 gang from Los Angeles to El Salvador. It’s headquarters are in Los Angeles and most of its members live in the US. Trump never mentions that.

So having created these problems and these refugees and now you don’t want to take responsibility for the mess you’ve created. Just like US Middle East policy created the Syrian refugee crisis and then banned Syrian refugees.

Typical Republicans. Make a mess and then refuse to clean it up. And just for good measure, blame others for the mess YOU created.

Always blaming the other guy... that’s socialism for ya.
Socialism is the cause of most modern problems in the world today

 

[whitehall]

When the crazy angry left starts quoting Christ you know they are nearly out of their minds.

 

[Sunni Man]

This will end badly for Trump and his anti-immigrant supporters. He has already tried to reverse himself.

Our wonderful Pres. Trump isn't anti-immigrant.

He is anti "illegal" immigrant.

Big difference......

 

[JakeStarkey]

Doesn't matter, S M.

 

[Sunni Man]

Socialism is the cause of most modern problems in the world today

Socialism is just Commie lite. ...

 

[LordBrownTrout]

This will end badly for Trump and his anti-immigrant supporters. He has already tried to reverse himself.

Our wonderful Pres. Trump isn't anti-immigrant.

He is anti "illegal" immigrant.

Big difference......

They can't even begin to understand such basic stuff. They could care less about the kids. They need that political wedge. Its all they got.