Thousands mark Second Intifada anniversary in Gaza and Judea&Samaria

[toastman]

I have to go, I'll be on in a few hours Tinmore if you want to continue this conversation ...

 

[docmauser1]

The occupation chooses to be a target. It is difficult to be sympathetic.

Let's be serious. Didin't we establish earlier that there's no occupation?

 

[docmauser1]

"In reality, Jewish population grew, but Arab population grew more rapidly. By 1914, there were over 500,000 Arabs in Palestine, but only about 80,000 to 100,000 Jews. Arab opposition to Jewish settlement grew as Arabs perceived that the Zionist goal was more than just a myth, and as they increasingly identified Zionism with British interests in the Middle East.

Of course! "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population." Churchill knew it verrrry well.

"At the same time, early Zionist pronouncements and outlook were often frankly colonialist, especially when addressing leaders of foreign powers. The plantations sponsored by Baron Rothschild were modeled on plantation settlement in Algeria and other colonies.
"Colonialism was fashionable and 'progressive,' and some early Zionist leaders saw nothing wrong in assimilating this idea to Zionism along with other modern ideas such as socialism, utopianism and nationalism.
"Later Zionists were heavily influenced by socialism and embarrassed at the colonialist aspects of the Zionist project. They were also aware, of course, that Palestine was already occupied by Arabs.
"Many however, including the young David Ben-Gurion, who headed the Executive committee of the Zionist Yishuv (Jewish community) in Palestine and was later the first Prime Minister of Israel, initially thought that the Arabs could only benefit from Jewish immigration and would welcome it.
"Others, such as Eliezer ben Yehuda, frankly envisioned removal of the Arabs from Palestine.
"One of the earliest warnings about the Arab problem came from the Zionist writer Ahad Ha'am (Asher Ginsberg), who wrote in his 1891 essay 'Truth from Eretz Israel' that in Palestine 'it is hard to find tillable land that is not already tilled", ...

So, how much tillable land was there? It'll be beneficial to know, since in 1891 palestine included today's Jordan, and our honorable georgephillip is notoriously reliable in delivering major drivel and garbage only, of course.

Would you have easily yielded your place in Palestine to European migrants, ...

"So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population." Churchill.
What are those major arab immigrants bitching about?

Zionism and the Creation of Israel - Definition and History

mideastweb.org with the stated goal:
"The Middle East is our home. We want to build a beautiful home, a safe and prosperous one for us and our children. However, without cooperation between peoples, there is no hope and no life for any of us. This can only happen after we change our ways of thinking about many things. We need to overcome the effects of decades of conflict, separation and hate propaganda." etc..
Kumbaya all round. Palistanians and their cheerleaders use that same rosy site for hate agitprop, but jews should paint a smiley on it.
Amy Isserov should've had learned the words of Bassam Tibbi:
"The dialogue is not proceeding well because of the two-facedness of most Muslim interlocutors on the one hand and the gullibility of well-meaning Western idealists on the other."

 

[Hossfly]

Zionism and the Creation of Israel - Definition and History

Georgie - you really need to go back and read this. Most especially the part debunking some of the many falsehoods about Zionism which you insist are 'true'.

Do you believe any among the following is one of those "many falsehoods"?

"In reality, Jewish population grew, but Arab population grew more rapidly. By 1914, there were over 500,000 Arabs in Palestine, but only about 80,000 to 100,000 Jews. Arab opposition to Jewish settlement grew as Arabs perceived that the Zionist goal was more than just a myth, and as they increasingly identified Zionism with British interests in the Middle East.

"At the same time, early Zionist pronouncements and outlook were often frankly colonialist, especially when addressing leaders of foreign powers. The plantations sponsored by Baron Rothschild were modeled on plantation settlement in Algeria and other colonies.

"Colonialism was fashionable and 'progressive,' and some early Zionist leaders saw nothing wrong in assimilating this idea to Zionism along with other modern ideas such as socialism, utopianism and nationalism.

"Later Zionists were heavily influenced by socialism and embarrassed at the colonialist aspects of the Zionist project. They were also aware, of course, that Palestine was already occupied by Arabs.

"Many however, including the young David Ben-Gurion, who headed the Executive committee of the Zionist Yishuv (Jewish community) in Palestine and was later the first Prime Minister of Israel, initially thought that the Arabs could only benefit from Jewish immigration and would welcome it.

"Others, such as Eliezer ben Yehuda, frankly envisioned removal of the Arabs from Palestine.

"One of the earliest warnings about the Arab problem came from the Zionist writer Ahad Ha'am (Asher Ginsberg), who wrote in his 1891 essay 'Truth from Eretz Israel' that in Palestine 'it is hard to find tillable land that is not already tilled", and moreover:

"'From abroad we are accustomed to believing that the Arabs are all desert savages, like donkeys, who neither see nor understand what goes on around them. But this is a big mistake... The Arabs, and especially those in the cities, understand our deeds and our desires in Eretz Israel, but they keep quiet and pretend not to understand, since they do not see our present activities as a threat to their future... However, if the time comes when the life of our people in Eretz Israel develops to the point of encroaching upon the native population, they will not easily yield their place.'"

Would you have easily yielded your place in Palestine to European migrants, Marg?

Zionism and the Creation of Israel - Definition and History

Looks like the Cut and Paste guy is at it again. He sure does like the Leftist Jews and their sites, being a Leftist himself. However, since he is so busy dissing Israel and is on his way to being a good Dhimmi for the Muslims, let's take a look at Islam. After all, if Georgie Boy is always vomiting out about Zionism, why shouldn't the viewers see a little bit of information about islam? As an aside, folks, don't you think Georgie Boy should care at least a little bit about what the Muslims are doing to his Black brethren in the Middle East and Africa?

Muhammad: The Jihad Begins

 

[georgephillip]

Zionism and the Creation of Israel - Definition and History

Georgie - you really need to go back and read this. Most especially the part debunking some of the many falsehoods about Zionism which you insist are 'true'.

Do you believe any among the following is one of those "many falsehoods"?

"In reality, Jewish population grew, but Arab population grew more rapidly. By 1914, there were over 500,000 Arabs in Palestine, but only about 80,000 to 100,000 Jews. Arab opposition to Jewish settlement grew as Arabs perceived that the Zionist goal was more than just a myth, and as they increasingly identified Zionism with British interests in the Middle East.

"At the same time, early Zionist pronouncements and outlook were often frankly colonialist, especially when addressing leaders of foreign powers. The plantations sponsored by Baron Rothschild were modeled on plantation settlement in Algeria and other colonies.

"Colonialism was fashionable and 'progressive,' and some early Zionist leaders saw nothing wrong in assimilating this idea to Zionism along with other modern ideas such as socialism, utopianism and nationalism.

"Later Zionists were heavily influenced by socialism and embarrassed at the colonialist aspects of the Zionist project. They were also aware, of course, that Palestine was already occupied by Arabs.

"Many however, including the young David Ben-Gurion, who headed the Executive committee of the Zionist Yishuv (Jewish community) in Palestine and was later the first Prime Minister of Israel, initially thought that the Arabs could only benefit from Jewish immigration and would welcome it.

"Others, such as Eliezer ben Yehuda, frankly envisioned removal of the Arabs from Palestine.

"One of the earliest warnings about the Arab problem came from the Zionist writer Ahad Ha'am (Asher Ginsberg), who wrote in his 1891 essay 'Truth from Eretz Israel' that in Palestine 'it is hard to find tillable land that is not already tilled", and moreover:

"'From abroad we are accustomed to believing that the Arabs are all desert savages, like donkeys, who neither see nor understand what goes on around them. But this is a big mistake... The Arabs, and especially those in the cities, understand our deeds and our desires in Eretz Israel, but they keep quiet and pretend not to understand, since they do not see our present activities as a threat to their future... However, if the time comes when the life of our people in Eretz Israel develops to the point of encroaching upon the native population, they will not easily yield their place.'"

Would you have easily yielded your place in Palestine to European migrants, Marg?

Zionism and the Creation of Israel - Definition and History

Looks like the Cut and Paste guy is at it again. He sure does like the Leftist Jews and their sites, being a Leftist himself. However, since he is so busy dissing Israel and is on his way to being a good Dhimmi for the Muslims, let's take a look at Islam. After all, if Georgie Boy is always vomiting out about Zionism, why shouldn't the viewers see a little bit of information about islam? As an aside, folks, don't you think Georgie Boy should care at least a little bit about what the Muslims are doing to his Black brethren in the Middle East and Africa?

Muhammad: The Jihad Begins

"In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn’t matter. The Arabs’ opposition to Zionism wasn’t based on anti-Semitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people.

"One further point: being Jewish ourselves, the position we present here is critical of Zionism but is in no way anti-Semitic. We do not believe that the Jews acted worse than any other group might have acted in their situation.

"The Zionists (who were a distinct minority of the Jewish people until after WWII) had an understandable desire to establish a place where Jews could be masters of their own fate, given the bleak history of Jewish oppression.

"Especially as the danger to European Jewry crystalized in the late 1930’s and after, the actions of the Zionists were propelled by real desperation.

"But so were the actions of the Arabs. The mythic 'land without people for a people without land' was already home to 700,000 Palestinians in 1919. This is the root of the problem, as we shall see."

The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict

 

[georgephillip]

"The Second Intifada created two positive achievements for the Palestinians. It brought about the evacuation of the Gaza strip by Israel. It also brought home, even to many members of the hard line Likud part,y that the settlement project and the dream of 'Greater Israel' was impossible to fulfill. Hard liner Ariel Sharon conceived and implemented the disengagement from Gaza, though he had once promised that Gaza settlements had the same status as Tel Aviv. A new political party, Kadima, was born of the Likud, but based itself on a platform of making peace with the Palestinians or implementation of unilateral disengagement. Ehud Olmert, once a member of the Likud, headed Kadima. He told a final cabinet meeting in September 2008 that, 'Greater Israel is no more.' (Ha'aretz, September 16, 2008) "However, the Intifada ruined the basis of the Israeli peace camp. Support for moderate solutions in Israel was seriously eroded. The Hamas takeover in Gaza demonstrated that disengagement, undertaken, like the peace process over the bitter opposition of the Israeli right, would end in disaster. The Hamas takeover also produced more problems for the Palestinians than were solved by the Israeli disengagement. It turned Gaza into a demonstration that could be used by opponents of the peace process to show that a Palestinian state would be a nightmarish reign of terror. It divided the Palestinian people, and it made it politically and practically impossible to pursue a peaceful solution of the conflict."
Do you believe "Greater Israel is no more?"

Do we believe our honorable georgephillip is full of uneducated guesstimations?

Have you decided on that watery eastern border of Greater Israel yet, the Jordan or the Euphrates?

 

[toastman]

"The Second Intifada created two positive achievements for the Palestinians. It brought about the evacuation of the Gaza strip by Israel. It also brought home, even to many members of the hard line Likud part,y that the settlement project and the dream of 'Greater Israel' was impossible to fulfill. Hard liner Ariel Sharon conceived and implemented the disengagement from Gaza, though he had once promised that Gaza settlements had the same status as Tel Aviv. A new political party, Kadima, was born of the Likud, but based itself on a platform of making peace with the Palestinians or implementation of unilateral disengagement. Ehud Olmert, once a member of the Likud, headed Kadima. He told a final cabinet meeting in September 2008 that, 'Greater Israel is no more.' (Ha'aretz, September 16, 2008) "However, the Intifada ruined the basis of the Israeli peace camp. Support for moderate solutions in Israel was seriously eroded. The Hamas takeover in Gaza demonstrated that disengagement, undertaken, like the peace process over the bitter opposition of the Israeli right, would end in disaster. The Hamas takeover also produced more problems for the Palestinians than were solved by the Israeli disengagement. It turned Gaza into a demonstration that could be used by opponents of the peace process to show that a Palestinian state would be a nightmarish reign of terror. It divided the Palestinian people, and it made it politically and practically impossible to pursue a peaceful solution of the conflict."
Do you believe "Greater Israel is no more?"

Do we believe our honorable georgephillip is full of uneducated guesstimations?

Have you decided on that watery eastern border of Greater Israel yet, the Jordan or the Euphrates?

Have you noticed that you're the only poster here who always talks about Israel expanding to the Euphrates?
Nobody here has said they want or expect that to happen.

 

[georgephillip]

Do we believe our honorable georgephillip is full of uneducated guesstimations?

Have you decided on that watery eastern border of Greater Israel yet, the Jordan or the Euphrates?

Have you noticed that you're the only poster here who always talks about Israel expanding to the Euphrates?
Nobody here has said they want or expect that to happen.

I've noticed many others have written and spoken about a Land of Israel which, in some versions, stretches from the Nile to the Euphrates; today, the expression seems reserved for Jewish control over all the land between the River and the Sea.

"Greater Israel is a controversial expression with several different Biblical and political meanings over time.
Currently, the most common definition of the land encompassed by the term is the territory of the State of Israel together with the Palestinian territories. Other earlier definitions, favored by Revisionist Zionism, included the territory of the former British Mandate of Palestine (with or without Transjordan, which developed independently after 1923). Other religious uses refer to one of the Biblical definitions of the Land of Israel found in Genesis 15:18-21, Deuteronomy 11:24, Deuteronomy 1:7, Numbers 34:1-15 or Ezekiel 47:13-20..."

"Joel Greenberg, writing in the New York Times notes; ‘At Israel's founding in 1948, the Labor Zionist leadership, which went on to govern Israel in its first three decades of independence, accepted a pragmatic partition of what had been British Palestine into independent Jewish and Arab states.

"The opposition Revisionist Zionists, who evolved into today's Likud party, sought Eretz Yisrael Ha-Shlema -- Greater Israel, or literally, the Whole Land of Israel.[1]

"The capture of the West Bank and Gaza Strip from Jordan and Egypt during the Six Day War in 1967, led to the growth of the non-parliamentary Movement for Greater Israel and the construction of Israeli settlements.

"The 1977 elections, which brought Likud to power also had considerable impact on acceptance and rejection of the term."

Greater Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Have you decided on that watery eastern border of Greater Israel yet, the Jordan or the Euphrates?

Have you noticed that you're the only poster here who always talks about Israel expanding to the Euphrates?
Nobody here has said they want or expect that to happen.

I've noticed many others have written and spoken about a Land of Israel which, in some versions, stretches from the Nile to the Euphrates; today, the expression seems reserved for Jewish control over all the land between the River and the Sea.

"Greater Israel is a controversial expression with several different Biblical and political meanings over time.
Currently, the most common definition of the land encompassed by the term is the territory of the State of Israel together with the Palestinian territories. Other earlier definitions, favored by Revisionist Zionism, included the territory of the former British Mandate of Palestine (with or without Transjordan, which developed independently after 1923). Other religious uses refer to one of the Biblical definitions of the Land of Israel found in Genesis 15:18-21, Deuteronomy 11:24, Deuteronomy 1:7, Numbers 34:1-15 or Ezekiel 47:13-20..."

"Joel Greenberg, writing in the New York Times notes; ‘At Israel's founding in 1948, the Labor Zionist leadership, which went on to govern Israel in its first three decades of independence, accepted a pragmatic partition of what had been British Palestine into independent Jewish and Arab states.

"The opposition Revisionist Zionists, who evolved into today's Likud party, sought Eretz Yisrael Ha-Shlema -- Greater Israel, or literally, the Whole Land of Israel.[1]

"The capture of the West Bank and Gaza Strip from Jordan and Egypt during the Six Day War in 1967, led to the growth of the non-parliamentary Movement for Greater Israel and the construction of Israeli settlements.

"The 1977 elections, which brought Likud to power also had considerable impact on acceptance and rejection of the term."

Greater Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even in the Bible, the greater dimensions of Greater Israel until the Euphrates is only mentioned a couple of times. Most of the time, it refers to the space between the Jordan River and the Med. Sea. For instance, when G-d tells Moses to ascend Mt. Nebo and look out over the whole Land of Israel/Eretz Yisroel, it's the space between the River and the Sea (which is barely a dot on the world map). No Israeli today would want to rule over the millions of Arabs that live between the Nile and Euphrates.

 

[Hoffstra]

Have you noticed that you're the only poster here who always talks about Israel expanding to the Euphrates?
Nobody here has said they want or expect that to happen.

yes, most Neo-Zionist wishes for Lebenraum only stretch to the Jordan River.

I suggest we let all Jews live in the West Bank if they like, in a bi-national state.

 

[Hossfly]

Do we believe our honorable georgephillip is full of uneducated guesstimations?

Have you decided on that watery eastern border of Greater Israel yet, the Jordan or the Euphrates?

Have you noticed that you're the only poster here who always talks about Israel expanding to the Euphrates?
Nobody here has said they want or expect that to happen.

Won't be long till George expands it to the South China Sea, I betcha.

 

[georgephillip]

Have you noticed that you're the only poster here who always talks about Israel expanding to the Euphrates?
Nobody here has said they want or expect that to happen.

I've noticed many others have written and spoken about a Land of Israel which, in some versions, stretches from the Nile to the Euphrates; today, the expression seems reserved for Jewish control over all the land between the River and the Sea.

"Greater Israel is a controversial expression with several different Biblical and political meanings over time.
Currently, the most common definition of the land encompassed by the term is the territory of the State of Israel together with the Palestinian territories. Other earlier definitions, favored by Revisionist Zionism, included the territory of the former British Mandate of Palestine (with or without Transjordan, which developed independently after 1923). Other religious uses refer to one of the Biblical definitions of the Land of Israel found in Genesis 15:18-21, Deuteronomy 11:24, Deuteronomy 1:7, Numbers 34:1-15 or Ezekiel 47:13-20..."

"Joel Greenberg, writing in the New York Times notes; ‘At Israel's founding in 1948, the Labor Zionist leadership, which went on to govern Israel in its first three decades of independence, accepted a pragmatic partition of what had been British Palestine into independent Jewish and Arab states.

"The opposition Revisionist Zionists, who evolved into today's Likud party, sought Eretz Yisrael Ha-Shlema -- Greater Israel, or literally, the Whole Land of Israel.[1]

"The capture of the West Bank and Gaza Strip from Jordan and Egypt during the Six Day War in 1967, led to the growth of the non-parliamentary Movement for Greater Israel and the construction of Israeli settlements.

"The 1977 elections, which brought Likud to power also had considerable impact on acceptance and rejection of the term."

Greater Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even in the Bible, the greater dimensions of Greater Israel until the Euphrates is only mentioned a couple of times. Most of the time, it refers to the space between the Jordan River and the Med. Sea. For instance, when G-d tells Moses to ascend Mt. Nebo and look out over the whole Land of Israel/Eretz Yisroel, it's the space between the River and the Sea (which is barely a dot on the world map). No Israeli today would want to rule over the millions of Arabs that live between the Nile and Euphrates.

Today the plan appears to require the fragmentation of Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, and, ultimately, Iran into sub-state enclaves ruled by rival ethnic or religious factions. Israel might well find itself joining NATO and collaborating with Turkey and Saudi Arabia to protect western pipelines running from the Caspian Sea to the Mediterranean. FWIW, there are currently nearly equal numbers of Jews and Arabs living between the River and the sea; self-determination would seem to require all Jews and Arabs getting to vote for those who write the laws they live under.

 

[toastman]

Have you noticed that you're the only poster here who always talks about Israel expanding to the Euphrates?
Nobody here has said they want or expect that to happen.

yes, most Neo-Zionist wishes for Lebenraum only stretch to the Jordan River.

I suggest we let all Jews live in the West Bank if they like, in a bi-national state.

What do you mean 'all Jews'

What about the Jews who already live in Israel ?

 

[Hoffstra]

What do you mean 'all Jews'

What about the Jews who already live in Israel ?

All Israeli Jews should be able to live in the West Bank.

All Palestinians should be able to live in Israel.

One state, bi-national.

 

[toastman]

What do you mean 'all Jews'

What about the Jews who already live in Israel ?

All Israeli Jews should be able to live in the West Bank.

All Palestinians should be able to live in Israel.

One state, bi-national.

That would require the tearing down of the wall and the removal of all checkpoints.

What have the Palestinians done so that Israel can trust them ??

Remember what happened when there was no wall and few checkpoints ?

 

[Hoffstra]

That would require the tearing down of the wall and the removal of all checkpoints.

What have the Palestinians done so that Israel can trust them ??

Remember what happened when there was no wall and few checkpoints ?

that's because the Palestinians were sufferering under brutal and unjust occupation.

Remove the occupation and terrorism will end.

 

[toastman]

That would require the tearing down of the wall and the removal of all checkpoints.

What have the Palestinians done so that Israel can trust them ??

Remember what happened when there was no wall and few checkpoints ?

that's because the Palestinians were sufferering under brutal and unjust occupation.

Remove the occupation and terrorism will end.

Says who ?

Do you have a crystal ball?

 

[toastman]

That would require the tearing down of the wall and the removal of all checkpoints.

What have the Palestinians done so that Israel can trust them ??

Remember what happened when there was no wall and few checkpoints ?

that's because the Palestinians were sufferering under brutal and unjust occupation.

Remove the occupation and terrorism will end.

Says who ?

Do you have a crystal ball?

 

[MHunterB]

That would require the tearing down of the wall and the removal of all checkpoints.

What have the Palestinians done so that Israel can trust them ??

Remember what happened when there was no wall and few checkpoints ?

that's because the Palestinians were sufferering under brutal and unjust occupation.

Remove the occupation and terrorism will end.

Hoffy, you should go back and read the PA and HAMAS Charters. Your claim is countered by those documents - and either one speaks louder than your silly slogans.

 

[Hossfly]

Have you noticed that you're the only poster here who always talks about Israel expanding to the Euphrates?
Nobody here has said they want or expect that to happen.

yes, most Neo-Zionist wishes for Lebenraum only stretch to the Jordan River.

I suggest we let all Jews live in the West Bank if they like, in a bi-national state.

But, the NeoNazis like Miss Hoffstra actually want Israel to roll over and play dead for the Arabs. Nothing going on in Germantown today? Why not get a bunch of your fellow NeoNazis to hold a parade down 86th Street? You can lead the way with the Nazi flag.