To Save the Schools, We Must Change the Social Contract

[progressive hunter]

do you teach that dinosaurs lived millions of yrs ago???


and do you teach other aspects of evolution???

Well I don't teach science so.....

thats not what I asked,,,,

I'm REALLY starting to see why the posters who are anti-public education are so anti here. I mean look. Here is a poster who's nailing me on teaching evolution. I just told him I DO NOT TEACH SCIENCE and he's telling me "that's not what I asked". NO, I do not teach evolution. Or creation. OR ANY SCIENCE

Just....wow

He also routinely uses commas for ellipses. Look up ellipses if you don't know what they are.

just goes to show ,,,if all else fails attack the messenger,,,

sorry honey I am a product of public education,,,,

and back on topic, what do you mean by a change in the social contract???

we had one and it got changed when the feds took over the education system which resulted in a down turn of education in this country,,

the old one was about education and the new one is about indoctrination,,,

whats yours gonna be???

Let's do a test and see how well you learn. If you were taught and refuse to learn that's not on your teachers, pal. That's on you.

These are ellipses

...

Three periods in a row. TECHNICALLY you are supposed to type them like this . . . with spaces in between, but only book publishers do this. So, three dots, no spaces is accepted. Like this ...

It means a pause, the thought is continuing, or I'm left hanging.

You use COMMAS for ellipses, and I have seen you do this before. It's very peculiar. Like this.

"about indoctrination,,,"

So rather than talk about science, let's talk about your punctuation. Since we're so far afield anyway.

I moved on from that,,,

whats your plan for changing the social contract???

 

[initforme]

Ok...what are the facts then?

 

[progressive hunter]

Ok...what are the facts then?

about what???

 

[BasicHumanUnit]

Social Contract--Rights and Responsibilities is another way to put it. We are all about Rights these days but light on Responsibilities.
That's all I'm going to give you; you don't deserve any more of my time

I see. You honestly act much more like a liberal snowflake than a conservative.
And that was what I expected. Nothing really.

 

[initforme]

So no evolution....what instead?
So no dinosaurs millions of years ago....what instead?

 

[Darkwind]

So no evolution....what instead?
So no dinosaurs millions of years ago....what instead?

I'm just curious about something.

Do you and it seems everyone else, think this is a discussion about what is taught in school as opposed to the topic of unruly or out-of-control children disrupting the teaching environment?

As I read the OP, this is NOT about teachers, not about Unions, not about curriculum. IT is about allowing children with emotional and self-control problems into the school system to begin with and how it places an undue burden on teachers and the workplace.

 

[progressive hunter]

So no evolution....what instead?
So no dinosaurs millions of years ago....what instead?

provable facts,,,
the problem with evolution is its taught as fact when its nothing more than a theory bordering on a religion,,,,

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Why should teachers "tow the line"? What line needs to be towed?
The term is "toe the line". Educate yourself before criticizing others!

Speaking of a lack of education and misguided criticism.....oops!

There's this thing called 'Google". Let me make it super simple just for you.....
Copy and paste this in.....

TOW THE LINE
(Any real Admiral worth his salt would know that)

Then Paste it into the Google Search bar. If you can't find it let me know and I'll try to guide you.

Thanks for playing.

Nice try, dumbass! I did as you asked!

How to Use Toe the line Correctly – Grammarist

Now, apologize for your insolence and ignorance and then STFU!

 

[SweetSue92]

Teachers have tried desperately to adapt to the changing needs of our students--and we're failing...and leaving the profession.

To save the schools, we have to revisit, and perhaps even change, the social contract. Specifically, we need to be clear about individual rights and collective rights.

The Kindergarten teacher in the article below, who left her job, mentions the kids who turn over tables because they've never been told "no". The day this happens and your child is injured, YOU must take action. Go to the teacher, then principal, superintendent and school board--and take other parents with you. That way, you apply pressure on the slacker parents and school personnel to do their job or get out of the way, because the most fundamental principle of the collective has been breached: students must be safe in school.

We can take our schools back. We can decide certain behaviors can be understood, but not tolerated.

(If you do not want to click and read her entire article, which I recommend, read her first and fourth reason for leaving, which I have copied below.)

1. The old excuse "the kids have changed". No. No friggin way. Kids are kids. PARENTING has changed. SOCIETY has changed. The kids are just the innocent victims of that. Parents are working crazy hours, consumed by their devices, leaving kids in unstable parenting/coparenting situations, terrible media influences... and we are going to give the excuse that the KIDS have changed? What did we expect them to do? Kids behave in undesirable ways in the environment they feel safest. They test the water in the environment that they know their mistakes and behaviors will be treated with kindness and compassion. For those "well behaved" kids--they're throwing normal kid tantrums at home because it's safe. The kids flipping tables at school? They don't have a safe place at home. Our classrooms are the first place they've ever heard 'no', been given boundaries, shown love through respect. Cue "the kids have changed" .
.
4. Instead of holding parents accountable... and making them true partners, we've adopted a customer service mindset. I've seen the Facebook rants about attendance and getting "the letter". Well, here's the thing... I can't teach your child if he's not in school ‍. I was cussed out by parents who wanted to attend field trips but missed the THREE notes that went home--and when they did attend a trip, sat on their phone the entire time. I've had parents stand me up multiple times on Conference Days then call to tattle on me when I refused to offer an after school option. I've had parents tell me that I'm not allowed to tell their child 'no'...

Ex-Kindergarten teacher’s post about why she quit teaching goes viral for how real it is.

One possible avenue of exploration is a means by which undisciplined or troubled children are evaluated and weeded out from entering the main k - 12 system.

In many communities, we have head start programs, along with other programs that ostentatiously exist to help the children get a leg up on learning.

In each of these kinds of programs, the behavior of the child should be observed and evaluated and a determination made on allowing the child to enter the k - 12 system.

Clearly, in many cases (I don't know how many and the opinion I have is based on anecdotal evidence, but I'm sure we all have stories) we see children who are running wild over their parents or the parents simply don't care. Some of that is due to PC, I"m sure. The whole notion that corporal punishment is forbidden because it is somehow wrong. Punishment often is a 'good talking too', or perhaps a timeout in the corner that is supposed to last for 20 minutes, but in reality, lasts 3 because the parent can't be bothered to listen to the crying or is too engrossed in their phone conversations.

We see them acting up in stores, parking lots, and in later years, running in gangs or vandalizing other people's property.

All because they were never taught any respect or self-control

When a child is acting up in school, I place the blame on that fully on the parent. When the child graduates high school unable to read and do rudimentary mathematics, or cannot even understand the basic structure of our society and our government, I blame that on teachers.

So, we need a way to sort the wheat from the chaff so that the wheat can become viable members of society.

First, thank you for your response!

While you are largely on the right track, there are a couple of misconceptions here. Sadly there is no "weeding out" system in the K-12 public schools.

In the very most extreme cases---and I mean VERY extreme--students go to special schools that you might call "off site" if they have severe disabilities or their behavior is exceedingly extreme--basically juvenile detention extreme. Otherwise, they come to us. I think many years ago it was expected that children attain a certain level of "readiness": that they be able to skip, know some letters or some-such. But with the advent of disability laws, pretty much all that is out the window. If they live in district and meet the age cut off, they come to us. Period. (Even in diapers, a thread I started a couple of weeks ago. Yes. In diapers.)

Another misconception is that kids are even getting the "talking to" or the "time out". Sadly, many are not even getting THAT. As the Kinder teacher says in her post, some parents have forbidden her from telling their child "no". Some parents these days feel that publicly correcting their child is "humiliating" to the child. So believe me, if we had children who were being talked to or given time outs, we would be in much better shape. But we're not. In many cases there's no correction AT ALL.

This is what I mean about the Social Contract. We need to get back to the place as schools where we tell parents, "We WILL discipline your child if he/she needs it. The discipline will be intended to teach, not to harm. If you're not okay with that, please consider homeschooling."

I do not say this out of a place of unkindness, but in a place of desperation--so that our schools can operate as schools again. If not--I think we're done. It's all over but the inevitable "shouting".

 

[Darkwind]

Teachers have tried desperately to adapt to the changing needs of our students--and we're failing...and leaving the profession.

To save the schools, we have to revisit, and perhaps even change, the social contract. Specifically, we need to be clear about individual rights and collective rights.

The Kindergarten teacher in the article below, who left her job, mentions the kids who turn over tables because they've never been told "no". The day this happens and your child is injured, YOU must take action. Go to the teacher, then principal, superintendent and school board--and take other parents with you. That way, you apply pressure on the slacker parents and school personnel to do their job or get out of the way, because the most fundamental principle of the collective has been breached: students must be safe in school.

We can take our schools back. We can decide certain behaviors can be understood, but not tolerated.

(If you do not want to click and read her entire article, which I recommend, read her first and fourth reason for leaving, which I have copied below.)

1. The old excuse "the kids have changed". No. No friggin way. Kids are kids. PARENTING has changed. SOCIETY has changed. The kids are just the innocent victims of that. Parents are working crazy hours, consumed by their devices, leaving kids in unstable parenting/coparenting situations, terrible media influences... and we are going to give the excuse that the KIDS have changed? What did we expect them to do? Kids behave in undesirable ways in the environment they feel safest. They test the water in the environment that they know their mistakes and behaviors will be treated with kindness and compassion. For those "well behaved" kids--they're throwing normal kid tantrums at home because it's safe. The kids flipping tables at school? They don't have a safe place at home. Our classrooms are the first place they've ever heard 'no', been given boundaries, shown love through respect. Cue "the kids have changed" .
.
4. Instead of holding parents accountable... and making them true partners, we've adopted a customer service mindset. I've seen the Facebook rants about attendance and getting "the letter". Well, here's the thing... I can't teach your child if he's not in school ‍. I was cussed out by parents who wanted to attend field trips but missed the THREE notes that went home--and when they did attend a trip, sat on their phone the entire time. I've had parents stand me up multiple times on Conference Days then call to tattle on me when I refused to offer an after school option. I've had parents tell me that I'm not allowed to tell their child 'no'...

Ex-Kindergarten teacher’s post about why she quit teaching goes viral for how real it is.

One possible avenue of exploration is a means by which undisciplined or troubled children are evaluated and weeded out from entering the main k - 12 system.

In many communities, we have head start programs, along with other programs that ostentatiously exist to help the children get a leg up on learning.

In each of these kinds of programs, the behavior of the child should be observed and evaluated and a determination made on allowing the child to enter the k - 12 system.

Clearly, in many cases (I don't know how many and the opinion I have is based on anecdotal evidence, but I'm sure we all have stories) we see children who are running wild over their parents or the parents simply don't care. Some of that is due to PC, I"m sure. The whole notion that corporal punishment is forbidden because it is somehow wrong. Punishment often is a 'good talking too', or perhaps a timeout in the corner that is supposed to last for 20 minutes, but in reality, lasts 3 because the parent can't be bothered to listen to the crying or is too engrossed in their phone conversations.

We see them acting up in stores, parking lots, and in later years, running in gangs or vandalizing other people's property.

All because they were never taught any respect or self-control

When a child is acting up in school, I place the blame on that fully on the parent. When the child graduates high school unable to read and do rudimentary mathematics, or cannot even understand the basic structure of our society and our government, I blame that on teachers.

So, we need a way to sort the wheat from the chaff so that the wheat can become viable members of society.

First, thank you for your response!

While you are largely on the right track, there are a couple of misconceptions here. Sadly there is no "weeding out" system in the K-12 public schools.

In the very most extreme cases---and I mean VERY extreme--students go to special schools that you might call "off site" if they have severe disabilities or their behavior is exceedingly extreme--basically juvenile detention extreme. Otherwise, they come to us. I think many years ago it was expected that children attain a certain level of "readiness": that they be able to skip, know some letters or some-such. But with the advent of disability laws, pretty much all that is out the window. If they live in district and meet the age cut off, they come to us. Period. (Even in diapers, a thread I started a couple of weeks ago. Yes. In diapers.)

Another misconception is that kids are even getting the "talking to" or the "time out". Sadly, many are not even getting THAT. As the Kinder teacher says in her post, some parents have forbidden her from telling their child "no". Some parents these days feel that publicly correcting their child is "humiliating" to the child. So believe me, if we had children who were being talked to or given time outs, we would be in much better shape. But we're not. In many cases there's no correction AT ALL.

This is what I mean about the Social Contract. We need to get back to the place as schools where we tell parents, "We WILL discipline your child if he/she needs it. The discipline will be intended to teach, not to harm. If you're not okay with that, please consider homeschooling."

I do not say this out of a place of unkindness, but in a place of desperation--so that our schools can operate as schools again. If not--I think we're done. It's all over but the inevitable "shouting".

I can't stay as I am about to run out the door, but I wanted to give a quick reply.

My first response was directed at your concept of 'changing the social contract'.

IF we started using these head start programs to weed out these children -- meaning that they would not be permitted into the K - 12 system -- that would be changing the contract, would it not? Additionally to that, there should be imposed a set standard minimum behavior of a child before entering into the system.

I'm not exactly sure the extent of your concept of 'will discipline'. I am fine with punishment by the schools, but exclude physical punishments as a remedy. Frankly, I don't think anyone but a parent should have that right. However, other forms of punishment, i.e., a weekly suspension, required after school detention, things of this nature, would be very useful. I also agree that the parents either accept that, or they can't have their children in the system.

 

[Unkotare]

...

IF we started using these head start programs to weed out these children -- meaning that they would not be permitted into the K - 12 system -- ....

Kind of hard to reconcile that with compulsory education, don't you think?

 

[SweetSue92]

Teachers have tried desperately to adapt to the changing needs of our students--and we're failing...and leaving the profession.

To save the schools, we have to revisit, and perhaps even change, the social contract. Specifically, we need to be clear about individual rights and collective rights.

The Kindergarten teacher in the article below, who left her job, mentions the kids who turn over tables because they've never been told "no". The day this happens and your child is injured, YOU must take action. Go to the teacher, then principal, superintendent and school board--and take other parents with you. That way, you apply pressure on the slacker parents and school personnel to do their job or get out of the way, because the most fundamental principle of the collective has been breached: students must be safe in school.

We can take our schools back. We can decide certain behaviors can be understood, but not tolerated.

(If you do not want to click and read her entire article, which I recommend, read her first and fourth reason for leaving, which I have copied below.)

1. The old excuse "the kids have changed". No. No friggin way. Kids are kids. PARENTING has changed. SOCIETY has changed. The kids are just the innocent victims of that. Parents are working crazy hours, consumed by their devices, leaving kids in unstable parenting/coparenting situations, terrible media influences... and we are going to give the excuse that the KIDS have changed? What did we expect them to do? Kids behave in undesirable ways in the environment they feel safest. They test the water in the environment that they know their mistakes and behaviors will be treated with kindness and compassion. For those "well behaved" kids--they're throwing normal kid tantrums at home because it's safe. The kids flipping tables at school? They don't have a safe place at home. Our classrooms are the first place they've ever heard 'no', been given boundaries, shown love through respect. Cue "the kids have changed" .
.
4. Instead of holding parents accountable... and making them true partners, we've adopted a customer service mindset. I've seen the Facebook rants about attendance and getting "the letter". Well, here's the thing... I can't teach your child if he's not in school ‍. I was cussed out by parents who wanted to attend field trips but missed the THREE notes that went home--and when they did attend a trip, sat on their phone the entire time. I've had parents stand me up multiple times on Conference Days then call to tattle on me when I refused to offer an after school option. I've had parents tell me that I'm not allowed to tell their child 'no'...

Ex-Kindergarten teacher’s post about why she quit teaching goes viral for how real it is.

One possible avenue of exploration is a means by which undisciplined or troubled children are evaluated and weeded out from entering the main k - 12 system.

In many communities, we have head start programs, along with other programs that ostentatiously exist to help the children get a leg up on learning.

In each of these kinds of programs, the behavior of the child should be observed and evaluated and a determination made on allowing the child to enter the k - 12 system.

Clearly, in many cases (I don't know how many and the opinion I have is based on anecdotal evidence, but I'm sure we all have stories) we see children who are running wild over their parents or the parents simply don't care. Some of that is due to PC, I"m sure. The whole notion that corporal punishment is forbidden because it is somehow wrong. Punishment often is a 'good talking too', or perhaps a timeout in the corner that is supposed to last for 20 minutes, but in reality, lasts 3 because the parent can't be bothered to listen to the crying or is too engrossed in their phone conversations.

We see them acting up in stores, parking lots, and in later years, running in gangs or vandalizing other people's property.

All because they were never taught any respect or self-control

When a child is acting up in school, I place the blame on that fully on the parent. When the child graduates high school unable to read and do rudimentary mathematics, or cannot even understand the basic structure of our society and our government, I blame that on teachers.

So, we need a way to sort the wheat from the chaff so that the wheat can become viable members of society.

First, thank you for your response!

While you are largely on the right track, there are a couple of misconceptions here. Sadly there is no "weeding out" system in the K-12 public schools.

In the very most extreme cases---and I mean VERY extreme--students go to special schools that you might call "off site" if they have severe disabilities or their behavior is exceedingly extreme--basically juvenile detention extreme. Otherwise, they come to us. I think many years ago it was expected that children attain a certain level of "readiness": that they be able to skip, know some letters or some-such. But with the advent of disability laws, pretty much all that is out the window. If they live in district and meet the age cut off, they come to us. Period. (Even in diapers, a thread I started a couple of weeks ago. Yes. In diapers.)

Another misconception is that kids are even getting the "talking to" or the "time out". Sadly, many are not even getting THAT. As the Kinder teacher says in her post, some parents have forbidden her from telling their child "no". Some parents these days feel that publicly correcting their child is "humiliating" to the child. So believe me, if we had children who were being talked to or given time outs, we would be in much better shape. But we're not. In many cases there's no correction AT ALL.

This is what I mean about the Social Contract. We need to get back to the place as schools where we tell parents, "We WILL discipline your child if he/she needs it. The discipline will be intended to teach, not to harm. If you're not okay with that, please consider homeschooling."

I do not say this out of a place of unkindness, but in a place of desperation--so that our schools can operate as schools again. If not--I think we're done. It's all over but the inevitable "shouting".

I can't stay as I am about to run out the door, but I wanted to give a quick reply.

My first response was directed at your concept of 'changing the social contract'.

IF we started using these head start programs to weed out these children -- meaning that they would not be permitted into the K - 12 system -- that would be changing the contract, would it not? Additionally to that, there should be imposed a set standard minimum behavior of a child before entering into the system.

I'm not exactly sure the extent of your concept of 'will discipline'. I am fine with punishment by the schools, but exclude physical punishments as a remedy. Frankly, I don't think anyone but a parent should have that right. However, other forms of punishment, i.e., a weekly suspension, required after school detention, things of this nature, would be very useful. I also agree that the parents either accept that, or they can't have their children in the system.

Oh I agree about corporal punishment in the schools. I don't want any part of that, no thanks.

As for a "weeding out", I'm wondering where you think these children would go if they were not permitted into the K-12 system. Do you just mean to start kindergarten? We already have pre-K programs, but they are not mandatory, they are parents' choice. One problem might be that you would have all needy children in those classes, all together. BUT, it's certainly an option. It's changing the contract as you say.

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[Unkotare]

... other forms of punishment, i.e., a weekly suspension, required after school detention, things of this nature, would be very useful. .....

That's exactly what happens now.

 

[SweetSue92]

... other forms of punishment, i.e., a weekly suspension, required after school detention, things of this nature, would be very useful. .....

That's exactly what happens now.

I think that is site-based. I really understand what that teacher said when she said the schools have a "customer service" model. In some ways that's not a bad thing, but it's a balance. In too many places the balance is all on the side of families' RIGHTS and not at all on the side of their RESPONSIBILITIES.

 

[JoeB131]

Teachers have tried desperately to adapt to the changing needs of our students--and we're failing...and leaving the profession.

To save the schools, we have to revisit, and perhaps even change, the social contract. Specifically, we need to be clear about individual rights and collective rights.

The Kindergarten teacher in the article below, who left her job, mentions the kids who turn over tables because they've never been told "no". The day this happens and your child is injured, YOU must take action. Go to the teacher, then principal, superintendent and school board--and take other parents with you. That way, you apply pressure on the slacker parents and school personnel to do their job or get out of the way, because the most fundamental principle of the collective has been breached: students must be safe in school.

We can take our schools back. We can decide certain behaviors can be understood, but not tolerated.

(If you do not want to click and read her entire article, which I recommend, read her first and fourth reason for leaving, which I have copied below.)

1. The old excuse "the kids have changed". No. No friggin way. Kids are kids. PARENTING has changed. SOCIETY has changed. The kids are just the innocent victims of that. Parents are working crazy hours, consumed by their devices, leaving kids in unstable parenting/coparenting situations, terrible media influences... and we are going to give the excuse that the KIDS have changed? What did we expect them to do? Kids behave in undesirable ways in the environment they feel safest. They test the water in the environment that they know their mistakes and behaviors will be treated with kindness and compassion. For those "well behaved" kids--they're throwing normal kid tantrums at home because it's safe. The kids flipping tables at school? They don't have a safe place at home. Our classrooms are the first place they've ever heard 'no', been given boundaries, shown love through respect. Cue "the kids have changed" .
.
4. Instead of holding parents accountable... and making them true partners, we've adopted a customer service mindset. I've seen the Facebook rants about attendance and getting "the letter". Well, here's the thing... I can't teach your child if he's not in school ‍. I was cussed out by parents who wanted to attend field trips but missed the THREE notes that went home--and when they did attend a trip, sat on their phone the entire time. I've had parents stand me up multiple times on Conference Days then call to tattle on me when I refused to offer an after school option. I've had parents tell me that I'm not allowed to tell their child 'no'...

Ex-Kindergarten teacher’s post about why she quit teaching goes viral for how real it is.

sounds like she totally sucks at her job, can't control even small children, and we are all better off she's pursuing something more to her skill level, like working at a WalMart.

 

[JoeB131]

Well I am a conservative Christian public school teacher. 25 years in, in the top 10% of teachers in my huge district, won many awards. Never been moved.

So that shoots down that little Talking Point doesn't it?

So essentially, you have involved parents who aren't working three jobs, and your little cult school can pick and choose what kids you want. Which means no poor kids, no minority kids, and no kids with emotional or learning disabilities.

 

[sparky]

And what is your experience in the schools?

I'm a parent & taxpayer

I.E.> 'customer'

That trumps anything

thx

~S~

 

[SweetSue92]

And what is your experience in the schools?

I'm a parent & taxpayer

I.E.> 'customer'

That trumps anything

thx

~S~

The people who work there are also taxpayers. My state tells me that when children turn over tables or hit, throw things, bite or etc, I cannot restrain them. I must stand there and take it.

Let's just start there. Please name me another profession where this is the case.

 

[JoeB131]

The people who work there are also taxpayers. My state tells me that when children turn over tables or hit, throw things, bite or etc, I cannot restrain them. I must stand there and take it.

Let's just start there. Please name me another profession where this is the case.

sounds like you can't control little kids... maybe you should consider doing something else for a living.

 

[SweetSue92]

Well I am a conservative Christian public school teacher. 25 years in, in the top 10% of teachers in my huge district, won many awards. Never been moved.

So that shoots down that little Talking Point doesn't it?

So essentially, you have involved parents who aren't working three jobs, and your little cult school can pick and choose what kids you want. Which means no poor kids, no minority kids, and no kids with emotional or learning disabilities.

I'm really glad for once that I clicked to read your post Joe.

Guess you missed where I said I'm a Christian PUBLIC school teacher. Meaning I am a Christian, teaching in the PUBLIC schools

This is why you're on ignore