To Save the Schools, We Must Change the Social Contract

[SweetSue92]

...

IF we started using these head start programs to weed out these children -- meaning that they would not be permitted into the K - 12 system -- ....

Kind of hard to reconcile that with compulsory education, don't you think?

A change to the social contract is the topic I believe.

So you want to do away with compulsory education?

I'd like to modify it so that children who do no meet a minimum behavioral standard would have to be homeschooled, and I'd make that mandatory on the parents or face civil and criminal liability.

That fact that we mandate that children go to school is an interesting concept given that we don't mandate that they achieve a minimum standard competency or force them to graduate.

There is no mandate that children go to public school. They can be homeschooled or private schooled; there is only a mandate in most states that something be happening for their education. However, I'm not aware that ANY state can bar them out of public schooling unless there has been huge discipline issues that are well-documented (expulsion). Otherwise, people are paying taxes for a service and the gov't is saying, no, not for you. That's discriminatory and, yeah, I can see the problem there.

 

[SweetSue92]

And what is your experience in the schools?

I'm a parent & taxpayer

I.E.> 'customer'

That trumps anything

thx

~S~

Not when it interferes with the service I demand.

We (Joe public) do not demand, the system demands and Joe public obeys, does not question, and is summarillay dismissed if s/he does so

~S~

~S~

That's crap, and you never responded to me because of course you cannot. The staff in the school are also taxpayers. So are the parents of the other children.

In fact of all the posts in this thread, yours is probably the most instructive to my point. You come along and say *I* am a taxpayer, *I* demand a service and it should be the WAY I SAY. Well alright, you have one child in one classroom in a class of 25 children in a school of 20 classes.

Fine and dandy if your child is a fairly middle-of-the-road child. Most teachers do everything they can to make sure you child is learning. If you are THAT PARENT and your child is an obnoxious troublemaker, now we have a problem, don't we?

Teacher calls about Little Angel and you say "Little Angel is never a problem at home, and by the way, I pay your salary and that trumps everything so don't tell me about Little Angel"....and we're off to the races. This is not necessarily the norm these days--I have many wonderful parents at my school--but it is far, far from rare, let me tell you. And it is a huge reason why teachers are quitting.

Again, the Social Contract. Or, Rights and Responsibilities. Maybe parent have the Right to expect a good education for their child but the Responsibility to help their child be a good citizen in their classroom. Wow, imagine that.

 

[SweetSue92]

To save the schools and change the "Social Contract" we must change the politics of this nation first. That's the root of all these problems. Legislators set the rules.
They are intertwined.

There is no way anyone is going to successfully change people like that on a national basis given the current political climate. it's futile and self defeating.

Not necessarily. I already see the faint rumblings of change happening. I see parents deciding--as in the article I linked in this thread--that their kinders being evacuated from their classroom 28 times in two months because of one student is too much and then going all the way to the school board about it. That was in their local newspaper.

And that's how it starts. That's a mass of parents putting pressure on the parents of one student to take care of a situation. However that looks.

 

[JoeB131]

Can't control them if the school wont let you.

You're not awfully bright

again, if you can't intimidate a room full of five year olds into compliance, then you probably should find something else to do for a living.

You see, I see our problem in Public Education to be quite the opposite. A lot of people who SHOULD be fired can't be.

 

[JoeB131]

In the case of the article I just linked: what if your kindergarten child is in this class and has been evacuated 28 times in three months due to another child's behavior?

Got any answer for that, sparky? Tell me about the rights and responsibilities of the parent of that child

If it is happening that often, then it sounds like that kid has some serious emotional problems and need evaluation.

"Evacuated", you mean the little five year old comes in with a gun?

 

[JoeB131]

Teacher calls about Little Angel and you say "Little Angel is never a problem at home, and by the way, I pay your salary and that trumps everything so don't tell me about Little Angel"....and we're off to the races. This is not necessarily the norm these days--I have many wonderful parents at my school--but it is far, far from rare, let me tell you. And it is a huge reason why teachers are quitting.

Again, the Social Contract. Or, Rights and Responsibilities. Maybe parent have the Right to expect a good education for their child but the Responsibility to help their child be a good citizen in their classroom. Wow, imagine that.

Maybe they have the right not to have a nutjob preaching religious morality from the front of the classroom if they aren't into that kind of thing.

I think in another thread you were so proud that so many of your third graders believed in Jesus. (Of course, most of them at that age still think Santa is real.)

 

[candycorn]

Teachers have tried desperately to adapt to the changing needs of our students--and we're failing...and leaving the profession.

To save the schools, we have to revisit, and perhaps even change, the social contract. Specifically, we need to be clear about individual rights and collective rights.

The Kindergarten teacher in the article below, who left her job, mentions the kids who turn over tables because they've never been told "no". The day this happens and your child is injured, YOU must take action. Go to the teacher, then principal, superintendent and school board--and take other parents with you. That way, you apply pressure on the slacker parents and school personnel to do their job or get out of the way, because the most fundamental principle of the collective has been breached: students must be safe in school.

We can take our schools back. We can decide certain behaviors can be understood, but not tolerated.

(If you do not want to click and read her entire article, which I recommend, read her first and fourth reason for leaving, which I have copied below.)

1. The old excuse "the kids have changed". No. No friggin way. Kids are kids. PARENTING has changed. SOCIETY has changed. The kids are just the innocent victims of that. Parents are working crazy hours, consumed by their devices, leaving kids in unstable parenting/coparenting situations, terrible media influences... and we are going to give the excuse that the KIDS have changed? What did we expect them to do? Kids behave in undesirable ways in the environment they feel safest. They test the water in the environment that they know their mistakes and behaviors will be treated with kindness and compassion. For those "well behaved" kids--they're throwing normal kid tantrums at home because it's safe. The kids flipping tables at school? They don't have a safe place at home. Our classrooms are the first place they've ever heard 'no', been given boundaries, shown love through respect. Cue "the kids have changed" .
.
4. Instead of holding parents accountable... and making them true partners, we've adopted a customer service mindset. I've seen the Facebook rants about attendance and getting "the letter". Well, here's the thing... I can't teach your child if he's not in school ‍. I was cussed out by parents who wanted to attend field trips but missed the THREE notes that went home--and when they did attend a trip, sat on their phone the entire time. I've had parents stand me up multiple times on Conference Days then call to tattle on me when I refused to offer an after school option. I've had parents tell me that I'm not allowed to tell their child 'no'...

Ex-Kindergarten teacher’s post about why she quit teaching goes viral for how real it is.

Points 1 and 4 are good points.
Reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies would probably help insofar as eliminating the specter of forcing people to become mothers who

A) aren’t ready
B) aren’t equipped monetarily, financially, spiritually, or even mentally or physically
C) simply don’t want or even like children
D) are kids themselves

Of course, this would mean that the entire abortion debate and the strictly republican penchant for cutting family planning dollars would have to do a 180 degree turn. That won’t happen.

As far as it goes; teachers really have an impossible job in some cases. But you can’t turn the boat around if you don’t turn the device in the wheelhouse. Cutting a class size in 2027 by 2 or 3 students who are raised by not-ready, not equipped or not interested parents is a logical first step.

Paying teachers like the professionals they are would be a good second step but we know that won’t happen either.

 

[sparky]

Fine and dandy if your child is a fairly middle-of-the-road child. Most teachers do everything they can to make sure you child is learning. If you are THAT PARENT and your child is an obnoxious troublemaker, now we have a problem, don't we?

I agree. But the real problem is, the ed system labels EVERY child troublesome , along with a canned speech to drug them all into oblivion

Again, the Social Contract. Or, Rights and Responsibilities. Maybe parent have the Right to expect a good education for their child but the Responsibility to help their child be a good citizen in their classroom. Wow, imagine that.

My point is, parents have no rights once they cross the threshold into the classrooom, everything presented them is not asking , it's demanding , they have no choice(s)

You see, I see our problem in Public Education to be quite the opposite. A lot of people who SHOULD be fired can't be.

Especially the mental health loosers hiding out there, most of whom can't cut a job in the real world

~S~

 

[SweetSue92]

Teachers have tried desperately to adapt to the changing needs of our students--and we're failing...and leaving the profession.

To save the schools, we have to revisit, and perhaps even change, the social contract. Specifically, we need to be clear about individual rights and collective rights.

The Kindergarten teacher in the article below, who left her job, mentions the kids who turn over tables because they've never been told "no". The day this happens and your child is injured, YOU must take action. Go to the teacher, then principal, superintendent and school board--and take other parents with you. That way, you apply pressure on the slacker parents and school personnel to do their job or get out of the way, because the most fundamental principle of the collective has been breached: students must be safe in school.

We can take our schools back. We can decide certain behaviors can be understood, but not tolerated.

(If you do not want to click and read her entire article, which I recommend, read her first and fourth reason for leaving, which I have copied below.)

1. The old excuse "the kids have changed". No. No friggin way. Kids are kids. PARENTING has changed. SOCIETY has changed. The kids are just the innocent victims of that. Parents are working crazy hours, consumed by their devices, leaving kids in unstable parenting/coparenting situations, terrible media influences... and we are going to give the excuse that the KIDS have changed? What did we expect them to do? Kids behave in undesirable ways in the environment they feel safest. They test the water in the environment that they know their mistakes and behaviors will be treated with kindness and compassion. For those "well behaved" kids--they're throwing normal kid tantrums at home because it's safe. The kids flipping tables at school? They don't have a safe place at home. Our classrooms are the first place they've ever heard 'no', been given boundaries, shown love through respect. Cue "the kids have changed" .
.
4. Instead of holding parents accountable... and making them true partners, we've adopted a customer service mindset. I've seen the Facebook rants about attendance and getting "the letter". Well, here's the thing... I can't teach your child if he's not in school ‍. I was cussed out by parents who wanted to attend field trips but missed the THREE notes that went home--and when they did attend a trip, sat on their phone the entire time. I've had parents stand me up multiple times on Conference Days then call to tattle on me when I refused to offer an after school option. I've had parents tell me that I'm not allowed to tell their child 'no'...

Ex-Kindergarten teacher’s post about why she quit teaching goes viral for how real it is.

Points 1 and 4 are good points.
Reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies would probably help insofar as eliminating the specter of forcing people to become mothers who

A) aren’t ready
B) aren’t equipped monetarily, financially, spiritually, or even mentally or physically
C) simply don’t want or even like children
D) are kids themselves

Of course, this would mean that the entire abortion debate and the strictly republican penchant for cutting family planning dollars would have to do a 180 degree turn. That won’t happen.

As far as it goes; teachers really have an impossible job in some cases. But you can’t turn the boat around if you don’t turn the device in the wheelhouse. Cutting a class size in 2027 by 2 or 3 students who are raised by not-ready, not equipped or not interested parents is a logical first step.

Paying teachers like the professionals they are would be a good second step but we know that won’t happen either.

K I'm going to give this the space for one post and then no more because this is NOT about abortion. Your take on the situation is entirely too simplistic. You're assuming all the misbehaving kids were "unplanned", "unwanted" or whatever. You might have a case I guess if that could be proven, but of course it cannot be proven. People's lives are messy. Some people who think they want to be parents prove to be unfit for the task; others want to be parents but other life circumstances make parenting difficult; other people who didn't think they wanted to be parents turn out to be amazing parents. It's not a straight line.

 

[SweetSue92]

Fine and dandy if your child is a fairly middle-of-the-road child. Most teachers do everything they can to make sure you child is learning. If you are THAT PARENT and your child is an obnoxious troublemaker, now we have a problem, don't we?

I agree. But the real problem is, the ed system labels EVERY child troublesome , along with a canned speech to drug them all into oblivion

Again, the Social Contract. Or, Rights and Responsibilities. Maybe parent have the Right to expect a good education for their child but the Responsibility to help their child be a good citizen in their classroom. Wow, imagine that.

My point is, parents have no rights once they cross the threshold into the classrooom, everything presented them is not asking , it's demanding , they have no choice(s)

You see, I see our problem in Public Education to be quite the opposite. A lot of people who SHOULD be fired can't be.

Especially the mental health loosers hiding out there, most of whom can't cut a job in the real world

~S~

K I don't have time for nonsense.

Your nonsense:

"EVERY child is troublesome"----straight and utter BS

"Parents have no rights"

You know, when we have people "arguing" with claptrap like this, I'm REALLY losing all hope. No one has any real solutions, just polarizing and absolutely ridiculous nonsense. What a society of complete morons we've become. Really.

 

[sparky]

You know, when we have people "arguing" with claptrap like this, I'm REALLY losing all hope.

I'm far from alone

No one has any real solutions, just polarizing and absolutely ridiculous nonsense.

My solution?

Local control

allow the 'customer'...IE-parent decisions based on performance

i'd come down on sorts who demomize children like God's own 'effin hammer !

Sorts like you'd be a walmart greeter in a cocaine hearbeat Sue

~S~

 

[SweetSue92]

You know, when we have people "arguing" with claptrap like this, I'm REALLY losing all hope.

I'm far from alone

No one has any real solutions, just polarizing and absolutely ridiculous nonsense.

My solution?

Local control

allow the 'customer'...IE-parent decisions based on performance

i'd come down on sorts who demomize children like God's own 'effin hammer !

Sorts like you'd be a walmart greeter in a cocaine hearbeat Sue

~S~

What do you think "school boards" are Sparky? That is local control.

And you are the perfect reason we don't let parents directly decide who gets fired and hired. IN short, you're butthurt because you don't like my opinions. Butthurt would get me fired. It has nothing to do with my job performance....butthurt and that alone.

IOW, you're a liberal

 

[SweetSue92]

You know, when we have people "arguing" with claptrap like this, I'm REALLY losing all hope.

I'm far from alone

No one has any real solutions, just polarizing and absolutely ridiculous nonsense.

My solution?

Local control

allow the 'customer'...IE-parent decisions based on performance

i'd come down on sorts who demomize children like God's own 'effin hammer !

Sorts like you'd be a walmart greeter in a cocaine hearbeat Sue

~S~

"demonize"........

To fainting-couch sitting, smelling-salt sniffing, corset-wearing leftists, that just means talking about any group and/or person in an argument they can't win.

IE, "Why should one child in one class cause a class of kindergartners to evacuate their classroom 28 times in two months?"

This means I'm "DEMONIZING" that child, see.

Don't by cowed by this nonsense. I'm not. The question still stands. Why does ONE child have the right to continue to cause 20 other children to vacate their room 28 times in two months???

 

[JoeB131]

"demonize"........

To fainting-couch sitting, smelling-salt sniffing, corset-wearing leftists, that just means talking about any group and/or person in an argument they can't win.

IE, "Why should one child in one class cause a class of kindergartners to evacuate their classroom 28 times in two months?"

This means I'm "DEMONIZING" that child, see.

Don't by cowed by this nonsense. I'm not. The question still stands. Why does ONE child have the right to continue to cause 20 other children to vacate their room 28 times in two months???

again, if this happens that often, then clearly there needs to be an intervention by mental health professionals.

I'm just wondering what this kid did to force an "evacuation". Did he come in with a machine gun? "Kids, today we are going to talk about the Second Amendment!"

 

[BasicHumanUnit]

When you "toe the line" you follow the requirements.
Pulling a fucking rope has nothing to do with the topic, dumbass!
The reason that "tow the line" has become used is idiots like you who misuse it.
Want to hear another one? I hate when when people say it will "prolly" happen. Are we suddenly just too fucking lazy to pronounce and spell all the letters in a word?

You know, considering most of your ideals align with mine, we really shouldn't be here.
You believe in the 2nd etc, and so do I.

This is small potatoes. There are REAL problems to be resolved. Save your energy for fighting the real enemies of America and not those basically on the same side.
Toe the line is the norm.....but for whatever reason I like my version better. Again my choice.
If you let your head explode over small things like this then that's on you.

If you've read my posts you well know I'm educated and quite literate, but who's "perfect"?. Last time....it's simply a choice I made. Save your energy for the truly illiterate and gross offenders. Or better yet, try being tolerant and focusing on what really matters.

And while I certainly could, I don't need to call you a "dumbass" or "idiot" every post to make my point. I'm just not that emotionally invested as you prolly are.

 

[BasicHumanUnit]

I'm just wondering what this kid did to force an "evacuation".

Classroom evacuation because of an irate 5 year old......uh huh....
Only in America.....and a few other confused, overly PC western societies.

 

[BasicHumanUnit]

Not necessarily. I already see the faint rumblings of change happening. I see parents deciding--as in the article I linked in this thread--that their kinders being evacuated from their classroom 28 times in two months because of one student is too much and then going all the way to the school board about it. That was in their local newspaper.

And that's how it starts. That's a mass of parents putting pressure on the parents of one student to take care of a situation. However that looks.

Sure, there may be some isolated instances, but it's like being in a row boat in the middle of the Pacific, fighting against a storm.
Until the storm settles down, any progress will be difficult if not impossible overall.

The political climate drives the social climate (Look around, seriously). And that is the force driving the ocean representing the root of the problem.

For example,
The political climate has pushed the social agenda of teaching elementary school children (by LAW), the ins and outs of homosexuality (see California).
Is this really what 8 and 9 year olds need to be learning in school?

There's an expression...."You can't beat City Hall"....
And in essence, "City Hall" (government) drives all the policies to which the schools must adhere, as well as all laws governing how parents must raise their children at home etc and what "rights" parents have or do not have in dealing with their own children.

As I said, as long as politics are harmful to the family unit and children, progress will be isolated to extreme cases, such as the example you gave. But overall, the schools will continue to deteriorate.

 

[SweetSue92]

Not necessarily. I already see the faint rumblings of change happening. I see parents deciding--as in the article I linked in this thread--that their kinders being evacuated from their classroom 28 times in two months because of one student is too much and then going all the way to the school board about it. That was in their local newspaper.

And that's how it starts. That's a mass of parents putting pressure on the parents of one student to take care of a situation. However that looks.

Sure, there may be some isolated instances, but it's like being in a row boat in the middle of the Pacific, fighting against a storm.
Until the storm settles down, any progress will be difficult if not impossible overall.

The political climate drives the social climate (Look around, seriously). And that is the force driving the ocean representing the root of the problem.

For example,
The political climate has pushed the social agenda of teaching elementary school children (by LAW), the ins and outs of homosexuality (see California).
Is this really what 8 and 9 year olds need to be learning in school?

I hope you're ready to listen now. Really listen.

You think the problems are coming from within the schools. As if the children--the products of this broken culture, really--are coming to us with clean, unwritten slates and on those slates all of us, to a teacher, are writing the most prurient and unwholesome things.

That almost never happens.

It is so rare I can tell you, yes, almost never. In CA yes and in other very liberal bastions. Otherwise, the children of this very broken, busted up and sad culture are coming to us.....well....broken, sad and busted up. Some of them have never known a stable and secure adult in their life. So really, they want the kindergarten teacher to be mommy. So while the kindergarten teacher is trying to be mommy to this child....and a lot of other children in the class...you are bashing the teacher for "teaching homosexuality". Which in all likelihood she has never done and will never do.

Wow, I'm gobsmacked at this teacher shortage. I really am. //////

 

[SweetSue92]

I'm just wondering what this kid did to force an "evacuation".

Classroom evacuation because of an irate 5 year old......uh huh....
Only in America.....and a few other confused, overly PC western societies.

Yes.

That is because in my state, my idiot legislature has passed a law that we cannot touch children except in the most dire emergencies. So. If you have a five year old child hitting, biting, kicking and throwing things in the room, and you are the only adult in the room, YOU CANNOT RESTRAIN THAT CHILD. You cannot even touch the child. By law.

At that point your only recompense is to remove the other children from the room. For their safety and for yours.

I would also like to point out to everyone who is so naive in this thread how very physically destructive young people, even children, can be when they are melting down. Realize most of us who work in elementary schools are women. I am very petite. Many third graders outweigh me. So yes, these children can easily take me out. Realize I did not go into this job thinking that hand to hand combat was part of the job.

So really.

 

[SweetSue92]

I'm just wondering what this kid did to force an "evacuation".

Classroom evacuation because of an irate 5 year old......uh huh....
Only in America.....and a few other confused, overly PC western societies.

Educate yourselves

Violent Behavior In Elementary Students Becoming More Prevalent