Zone1 Trump : "and Mr Putin: If you don’t make a deal, we’re gonna give them a lot. We’re gonna give more than they ever got.”

[peacefan]

I have to admit, I'm not crazy about NATO accepting new members mid-war. Even if it works out this time, it seems as if it is an invitation to abuse in the future.

we just have to retain the ability to say 'no' to applicants we can't or shouldn't (according to our values *and* a set of equality-based world-order rules) support.

I am absolutely for support for Ukraine, but boots on the ground is a big step that should not be considered without a clear exit strategy. I'm apprehensive of approaching this idea as if we're trying to fulfill video game victory conditions; it's a long and perpetual process, and lend-lease was working until our hand was forced.

we first stalled the negotiations into perpetuity, then shoved referendums aside (let the Russians organize a few so we could dismiss them based on the absence of independent monitors), and now we're engineering a perpetual war.
perpetual simply meaning 'longer than a decade'.

I am inclined to think that we probably won't have to hold the line for too long before Russia solves the problem for us by completely imploding.

Russia is ruled by their oligarchs and intel and military, in my opinion.
so i think it has a very robust government which is only vulnerable to short-duration upheavals.

 

[peacefan]

Trump is a fucking idiot

The one thing Putin was crystal clear about was Ukraine stays neutral

Biden was the idiot, Trump would be cleaning up the mess.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Biden was the idiot, Trump would be cleaning up the mess.

True but what is Trump promising Zelen$ky?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I have to admit, I'm not crazy about NATO accepting new members mid-war. Even if it works out this time, it seems as if it is an invitation to abuse in the future.

I am absolutely for support for Ukraine, but boots on the ground is a big step that should not be considered without a clear exit strategy. I'm apprehensive of approaching this idea as if we're trying to fulfill video game victory conditions; it's a long and perpetual process, and lend-lease was working until our hand was forced.

I am inclined to think that we probably won't have to hold the line for too long before Russia solves the problem for us by completely imploding.

We don't have the boots or the ammo!

 

[luiza]

It is all academic . Moscow is whitewashing the Kyiv Nazis . The US is broke , EU is broke, but Russia has "infinite" resources and can fight the war forever, though it will choose otherwise . Kyiv has nothing to negotiate with . ERGO It is fucked completely . To Toomuchbooze , MadTooth and other Trolls .BTW , Winkle Titty has been absent for two days . At least he has been honourable and killed himself . Come on other Trolls , your turn next .

 

[peacefan]

True but what is Trump promising Zelen$ky?

Trump, according to his latest stated plans (aired on Maria Barteroma's show on Fox News last week), would tell Zelensky : make a deal, or we withhold weapons from you.
i think that's a good strategy for peace, in Zelensky's case.

 

[peacefan]

we first stalled the negotiations into perpetuity, then shoved referendums aside (let the Russians organize a few so we could dismiss them based on the absence of independent monitors), and now we're engineering a perpetual war.
perpetual simply meaning 'longer than a decade'.

if the underdog in a conflict wants to keep the conflict going until "victory"/victory for themselves, into perpetuity, then the militarily superior force has no option but to eventually negotiate terms with the underdogs.
the evidence for this is found in the US-Afghanistan, the North- and South-Korean, and the Vietnam conflicts, among others no doubt.

and that brings this thread to a bit of a side-track :
does the (real!) need to keep the defense industry humming along, outweigh the lives getting lost and damaged in these perpetual/endless wars?
should we adjust the balance?
because we're heading towards very big defense costs people. the Taiwan conflict awaits, and the Ukraine conflict might not even be over by then.

 

[badbob85037]

Gee Trump is saying that Putin respects him so much. Yet when Trump had a private meeting with Putin, he never told us what they talked about. You would think that he would be bragging about that meeting and about what they talked about. "Your so manly, no your so manly". It still remains a secret. As much as Trump likes to brag this seems odd.

where are the records and if trump did not manage to hide them Biden needs to declassify and release the right way.

Trump praises Putin when Russia invaded Ukraine

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrO8JZtO8Fk8lkNbqNXNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNncTEEcG9zAzIEdnRpZANMT0NVSTEwMkJfMQRzZWMDc2M-/RV=2/RE=1690414061/RO=10/RU=https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/26/politics/trump-cpac-putin-ukraine/index.html/RK=2/RS=oI3_yWyN36w8bgmlOP72cWYKB9w-

“The problem is not that Putin is smart, which, of course, he’s smart,” Trump said. “The problem is that our leaders are dumb… and so far, allowed him to get away with this travesty and assault on humanity.”

Only Trump can praise a person and them blame others who had nothing to do with the invasion.

Hell, I praised Putin rather than that lump of crap Joe, the light in the democRat party.

 

[badbob85037]

we just have to retain the ability to say 'no' to applicants we can't or shouldn't (according to our values *and* a set of equality-based world-order rules) support.

we first stalled the negotiations into perpetuity, then shoved referendums aside (let the Russians organize a few so we could dismiss them based on the absence of independent monitors), and now we're engineering a perpetual war.
perpetual simply meaning 'longer than a decade'.


Russia is ruled by their oligarchs and intel and military, in my opinion.
so i think it has a very robust government which is only vulnerable to short-duration upheavals.

The thing is America doesn't know how to win a war. We can win every battle as we are the most advanced and underhanded military the world has ever seen. Who do you think taught all those terrorist their tatics? It's these politicans trying to make a buck no matter where that buck comes from. I mean come on man! Don't make me take you out behind the gym and knock some sense into you!

 

[peacefan]

The thing is America doesn't know how to win a war. We can win every battle as we are the most advanced and underhanded military the world has ever seen. Who do you think taught all those terrorist their tatics? It's these politicans trying to make a buck no matter where that buck comes from. I mean come on man! Don't make me take you out behind the gym and knock some sense into you!

you're partially right about those politicians.
but it's your military industrial complex that wants to be fed money on a regular basis.
hence the "need" for more long wars.

 

[JoeB131]

The thing is America doesn't know how to win a war. We can win every battle as we are the most advanced and underhanded military the world has ever seen. Who do you think taught all those terrorist their tatics? It's these politicans trying to make a buck no matter where that buck comes from. I mean come on man! Don't make me take you out behind the gym and knock some sense into you!

The real problem is that you don't really "Win" a war. War has no "Winners". You achieve objectives. But you have to understand what your objectives are.

Our objectives in WWII were clear. Defeat the Axis, depose their governments and replace them with more democratic ones. (Even though all three of the major Axis powers had some experience with Democracy and didn't like it so much.) Of course, we had to make compromises.. Japan got to keep her Emperor and we let a bunch of Nazis migrate back into polite society.

Our objectives in Afghanistan were.... unrealistic. They had no experience with Democracy. They had no interest in becoming a western-style democracy with equality for women. The British and Russians couldn't change them, why did we think we could?

Our objectives in Ukraine are to drive the Russians out and restore Ukraine to it's 2014 borders. I don't think this is realistic, but neither side in the war is really willing to sit down and come up with a compromise.

You could have a point where whoever succeeds Putin realizes that the war in Ukraine is unpopular and withdraws. Or you could have a point where the Ukraine accepts the new borders. But we are nowhere near that yet.

 

[Kilroy2]

That is correct, their main beef is that Ukraine joining NATO which puts a NATO country close to Mother Russia. Then Finland joins NATO. Putin is looking bad. Russia also took Crimea and wanted more so they continued the invasion.

So Putin wants total victory and that includes bringing Ukraine into their fold. Of course Ukraine wants to join NATO.

So basically Trump believes he can talk Putin in to not being concerned with Ukraine if it joins NATO. or he believes that he can talk Ukraine into not wanting to join NATO.

The issue of Crimea is a tough one. Still it might be the middle road. let Russia have it if they withdraw might be on the table.

Still it an election year so he needs something positive to outweigh the negatives. Good look with that one.

Still there is nothing stopping him from visiting Russia or Ukraine as a civilian. Just do it.

 

[peacefan]

That is correct, their main beef is that Ukraine joining NATO which puts a NATO country close to Mother Russia. Then Finland joins NATO. Putin is looking bad. Russia also took Crimea and wanted more so they continued the invasion.

So Putin wants total victory and that includes bringing Ukraine into their fold. Of course Ukraine wants to join NATO.

So basically Trump believes he can talk Putin in to not being concerned with Ukraine if it joins NATO. or he believes that he can talk Ukraine into not wanting to join NATO.

The issue of Crimea is a tough one. Still it might be the middle road. let Russia have it if they withdraw might be on the table.

Still it an election year so he needs something positive to outweigh the negatives. Good look with that one.

Still there is nothing stopping him from visiting Russia or Ukraine as a civilian. Just do it.

Trump currently isn't in power. he doesn't command any US policies. therefore going to either of these places will be useless (at the moment!)..

 

[peacefan]

The real problem is that you don't really "Win" a war. War has no "Winners". You achieve objectives. But you have to understand what your objectives are.

Our objectives in WWII were clear. Defeat the Axis, depose their governments and replace them with more democratic ones. (Even though all three of the major Axis powers had some experience with Democracy and didn't like it so much.) Of course, we had to make compromises.. Japan got to keep her Emperor and we let a bunch of Nazis migrate back into polite society.

Our objectives in Afghanistan were.... unrealistic. They had no experience with Democracy. They had no interest in becoming a western-style democracy with equality for women. The British and Russians couldn't change them, why did we think we could?

Our objectives in Ukraine are to drive the Russians out and restore Ukraine to it's 2014 borders. I don't think this is realistic, but neither side in the war is really willing to sit down and come up with a compromise.

You could have a point where whoever succeeds Putin realizes that the war in Ukraine is unpopular and withdraws. Or you could have a point where the Ukraine accepts the new borders. But we are nowhere near that yet.

i pray we humans learn to soon overcome the need to kill eachother on a regular basis in large numbers.

 

[Kilroy2]

Trump currently isn't in power. he doesn't command any US policies. therefore going to either of these places will be useless (at the moment!)..

at the moment huh, well it will be useless period as Putin is not giving in as his grip of power is at stake. Ukraine has not been let in to join NATO. As an attack on one NATO nation is an attack on all NATO nations.

So some NATO nations have agreed to security guarantees which I guess means that they will continue supplying Ukraine weapons. They at this point in time are not sending troops to fight but there probably some troops there in a support capacity

So it is a sticky situation and only the history books knows how this will end. Trump believes that Putin will listen to him is funny. Ukraine won't listen as Russia has killed civilians. As long as there is support they will keep fighting. Die hard

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

I'm not sure what's worse: Watching him talk like a ten year old, or reading his words as he talks like a ten year old.

"It's... You know, .....the thing"

 

[jwoodie]

Trump is a fucking idiot

The one thing Putin was crystal clear about was Ukraine stays neutral

Did Trump say he wants Ukraine in NATO?

 

[jwoodie]

We could stop the war in short order if Russia would agree to cease offensive operations in return for our keeping Ukraine out of NATO. If Ukraine refuses, we should cut off all military aid. If Russia refuses, we should start putting IRBMs back in Europe. It worked in 1983 and would work again to stop Russian aggression.

Unfortunately, Biden and Zelensky have their own political motives for continuing the war.

 

[peacefan]

Ukraine's Slog Prompts Focus on Next Year's Fight
With big gains elusive this year, planners are considering how training and new equipment might tip the battlefield balance in spring.

Remote : Sun, 13 Aug 2023 08:33:00 -0400
Local : 2023-08-13(Sunday) 14 : 33 : 00
Found via NicerApp WebOS

i'm sad to say this is playing out exactly as i predicted : another 'endless war'.

 

[peacefan]

Russian air defenses intercept eight US-made HIMARS rockets in Ukraine operation
Remote : Sun, 13 Aug 2023 1548 +0300
Local : 2023-08-13(Sunday) 14 : 20 : 48
Found via NicerApp WebOS
in an effort to stay politically neutral in this conflict, i gotta add that Russia's military industrial complex seems to be catching up with the US military gear *really quickly*.
i consider that another argument made for investing in R&D rather than weapons fired.