Trump files, jury sees classified files or Trump wins

[Seymour Flops]

Possibly.

But for what? A ruling that one side did not like?

a ruling that has not precedent in legal history

A ruling that the jury has to see the contents of classified documents.

Procedures and requirement for a jury to see the contents of classified documents are set forth in the Classified Information Procedures Act (CIPA):



CIPA is a procedural statute; it neither adds to nor detracts from the substantive rights of the defendant or the discoery obligations of the government. Rather, the procedure for making these determinations is different in that it balances the right of a criminal defendant with the right of the sovereign to know in advance of a potential threat from a criminal prosecution to its national security. See, e.g., United States v. Anderson, 872 F.2d 1508, 1514 (11th Cir.), cert. denied, 493 U.S. 1004 (1989); United States v. Collins, 720 F.2d 1195, 1197 (11th Cir. 1983); United States v. Lopez-Lima, 738 F. Supp. 1404, 1407 (S.D.Fla. 1990). Each of CIPA's provisions is designed to achieve those dual goals: preventing unnecessary or inadvertent disclosures of classified information and advising the government of the national security "cost" of going forward.

2054. Synopsis Of Classified Information Procedures Act (CIPA)

www.justice.gov

Presenting classified evidence to a jury isn't some crazy idea that Trump's attorneys invented. It's been provided for in federal regulations, and the precedents underylying them are listed above.

 

[elektra]

That doesn't happen, except in Perry Mason reruns.

You know this, it's too stupid for me to pretend to have to explain it to you. Nobody innocent says "I wish I could be put on trial, so I could be exonerated!

I am going to steal this comment and use it, I will acknowledge that I stole it by saying, if you steal from me you steal twice

 

[Marener]

Where is this NARA?

National Archives by the Numbers

(as of October 11, 2023) Locations: 43 facilities in 17 states, plus the District of Columbia Number of staff: 2,569 Size of permanent archival holdings: 13.5 billion pieces of paper More than 725,000 artifacts More than 450 million feet of film, or about 85,302 miles (enough to circle the earth...

www.archives.gov

 

[Seymour Flops]

It's in the quotes. You are missing bullet C and the subsequent clarification that finishes on page 41.

Not sure what you expect me to provide outside of what is in the indictment.

Nothing. No one else has.

Indictments are accusations, not evidence.

If you have no evidence, so be it. No one else has shown any, so I didn't expect you to.

If you admit that you have no evidence, you will be way ahead of your fellow Democrats.

 

[Seymour Flops]

I am going to steal this comment and use it, I will acknowledge that I stole it by saying, if you steal from me you steal twice

Sure, use it all you like.

It's pure common sense that people like "harpy eagle" knew before Trump Derangement set in.

 

[elektra]

National Archives by the Numbers

(as of October 11, 2023) Locations: 43 facilities in 17 states, plus the District of Columbia Number of staff: 2,569 Size of permanent archival holdings: 13.5 billion pieces of paper More than 725,000 artifacts More than 450 million feet of film, or about 85,302 miles (enough to circle the earth...

www.archives.gov

where is nara? your link does not say where the president is suppose to send the documents, you claimed presidents send their documents to nara, what is the address

this website says nara has offices/facilities in over 40 places, it does not answer what you claim, that the president sends his documents to nara

 

[Marener]

Presenting classified evidence to a jury isn't some crazy idea that Trump's attorneys invented. It's been provided for in federal regulations, and the precedents underylying them are listed above.

CIPA has procedures to protect national security by substituting unclassified summaries of the classified information or redacted versions. It’s under section 6c.

Its not logical that the government would have to risk national security to prosecute someone risking national security.

 

[elektra]

Sure, use it all you like.

It's pure common sense that people like "harpy eagle" knew before Trump Derangement set in.

it is common sense, we know it, but we had not the opportunity to see it, hear it outload, or we had no need to think of it because such absurdity had never happened before,

 

[Seymour Flops]

CIPA has procedures to protect national security by substituting unclassified summaries of the classified information or redacted versions. It’s under section 6c.

It doesn't require such substitution. It leaves it up to the discretion of the judge:

Substitution Pursuant to Section 6(c)
If the court rules any classified information to be admissible, section 6(c) of CIPA permits the Government to propose unclassified "substitutes" for that information. Specifically, the Government may move to substitute either (1) a statement admitting relevant facts that the classified information would tend to prove or (2) a summary of the classified information instead of the classified information itself. 18 U.S.C. App. III section 6(c)(1). See United States v. Smith, supra, 780 F.2d at 1105. In many cases, the government will propose a redacted version of a classified document as a substitution for the original, having deleted only non-relevant classified information. A motion for substitution shall be granted if the "statement or summary will provide the defendant with substantially the same ability to make his defense as would disclosure of the specified classified information." 18 U.S.C. App. III section 6(c).

 

[Marener]

where is nara? your link does not say where the president is suppose to send the documents, you claimed presidents send their documents to nara, what is the address

this website says nara has offices/facilities in over 40 places, it does not answer what you claim, that the president sends his documents to nara

I believe records go from the White House to the Washington National Records Center. The White House has a special office set up to handle these logistics called White House Office of Records Management who deliver the material to NARA.

 

[Marener]

It doesn't require such substitution. It leaves it up to the discretion of the judge:

Substitution Pursuant to Section 6(c)
If the court rules any classified information to be admissible, section 6(c) of CIPA permits the Government to propose unclassified "substitutes" for that information. Specifically, the Government may move to substitute either (1) a statement admitting relevant facts that the classified information would tend to prove or (2) a summary of the classified information instead of the classified information itself. 18 U.S.C. App. III section 6(c)(1). See United States v. Smith, supra, 780 F.2d at 1105. In many cases, the government will propose a redacted version of a classified document as a substitution for the original, having deleted only non-relevant classified information. A motion for substitution shall be granted if the "statement or summary will provide the defendant with substantially the same ability to make his defense as would disclosure of the specified classified information." 18 U.S.C. App. III section 6(c).

I didn’t say it required it. I said there are procedures to handle it. But if Cannon does something stupid, the DoJ can appeal.

 

[Seymour Flops]

It doesn't require such substitution. It leaves it up to the discretion of the judge:

Substitution Pursuant to Section 6(c)
If the court rules any classified information to be admissible, section 6(c) of CIPA permits the Government to propose unclassified "substitutes" for that information. Specifically, the Government may move to substitute either (1) a statement admitting relevant facts that the classified information would tend to prove or (2) a summary of the classified information instead of the classified information itself. 18 U.S.C. App. III section 6(c)(1). See United States v. Smith, supra, 780 F.2d at 1105. In many cases, the government will propose a redacted version of a classified document as a substitution for the original, having deleted only non-relevant classified information. A motion for substitution shall be granted if the "statement or summary will provide the defendant with substantially the same ability to make his defense as would disclosure of the specified classified information." 18 U.S.C. App. III section 6(c).

And the substitution would be a redacted version of the same document, not something completely different like a "discription" of the document.

Cannon won't let them to their usual redaction job, either. You know, like this:

 

[Seymour Flops]

I didn’t say it required it. I said there are procedures to handle it. But if Cannon does something stupid, the DoJ can appeal.

Oh, OK, then.

Have you read the actual order from Judge Cannon?

It really isn't that much to get so wee-wee'd up about.

 

[Thinker101]

Neither Pence, Biden, or FPOTUS#45 were charged with "having documents".

Charge Pence now with having documents. Add having documents now to the current charges against FPOTUS#45. Charge Biden when he's out of office. Biden can be impeached now and charged. All of that is fine with me.

WW

Wasn't the question....dumbass.

 

[Thinker101]

Who cares? He outclassed and outsmarted the orange slob again. Haw haw

And you're thinking the game is over....not a chance.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Let's take a deep breath and read the Judge's actual order. It is thoughtfully linked in the OP.

Thanks Delldude!

Here it is again, the judge gives the attorneys a choice. Either:

a) The jury is allowed to look at the subject documents to determine whether they should have been treated as presidential records under the PRA,

or

b) The jury be told that under the law, the president is the sole decider of what is a presidential record, and what is not, and made that decision clear when he ordered documents to be taken to his personal home.

a) or b) seem perfectly fair and reasonable to me.

What would be the argument that neither should be the case?

 

[Zincwarrior]

it is a known fact that the department of justice has stripped attorney client privilege from trump, I doubt after illegally charging the president under the espionage act that the democrats will stop their violating Trump's rights

There is no attorney client privilege for a FORMER president.

Also thats irrelevant to your statement. Political attorneys are not criminal defense attorneys.

 

[elektra]

There is no attorney client privilege for a FORMER president.

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[The Duke]

Indeed they should. Along with Pence and Hillary

Why should Pence be punished?

 

[MagicMike]

There is hope for you yet,

He cannot ever hear me on my end telling him how full of shit he is.