Trump, Trump supporters, Socialism, and the Economy

[Missouri_Mike]

I know this thread will degenerate quickly into platitudes, talking points and insults, but what the hell.

Right now the economy is in good shape. Friday's employment & hiring figures were freakin' outstanding to say the least, and there's a good chance we'll keep purring along for the foreseeable future. And that's not something you can always say. So, that's some pretty damn good stuff.

While this is happening, Trump and his supporters are predictably crowing and very proud. Yeah, I can see that, and it's certainly amplified by the current partisan political environment. Yeah, I get that too.

The three largest factors -- and even the slightest internet research will confirm this -- driving this expansion are (1) the aggressive tax cuts, (2) the aggressive increase in government spending, and (3) the Fed pouring HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS into markets to grease the system.

Then, on top of that will be the increase in confidence and positivity with both consumers and businesses. Icing on the cake, good stuff, let's go.

So perhaps Trump supporters can explain why they're so against socialism. Two of the largest three contributing stimulative factors -- massive government spending and the Fed's actions -- would have been considered terrible just four years ago, yet the attacks on socialism (whatever the hell the definition is that the person is using) are only escalating.

Can someone explain this, reasonably, civilly, intelligently, and with original, independent thought?
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I’m against socialism for the exact things you’re posting about here. It’s not sustainable.

By your own admission you are acknowledging this reality. Although I think you meant it to be a pro socialism post but I’ll play along for a bit.

Of the three issues you brought up which one would you like to see reversed first?

Raise taxes.
Reign in the FED.
Cut spending.

Yes, I don't want a high degree of socialism, I don't want Bernie in there. I'm a capitalist.

And yes, the three solutions you provide would be correct.

The point is, the crowing about a good economy being driven (at least in part) by what many on the Right call "socialism".

I hope this period will open a few eyes to the obvious, that the economy is not binary, it's about a proper equilibrium.
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You didn’t answer my question. Prioritize the three choices. Which one do you take on first.

I don't know why it matters, since it's a moot point.

The massively increased spending and tax cuts are already baked in and set. So trying to stop the Fed would be the only #1.
.

So we’re to the punt that the socialism we now have in place is going to destroy the nation no matter what.

 

[pknopp]

Sadly Obama supporters defended him inflating the economy in the same way Trump is.

Obama did the only thing he could do: He stood back as the Fed pumped $4.5T into markets.

That was digging us out of a catastrophe. This is happening in a non-recessionary period, something Keynes himself would have opposed.
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Faith in the economy and American capitalism must be maintained at any cost. That is the only economic philosophy at work right now.

Faith in the economy is long gone.

Consumer debt is what really drives growth in the economy. A whole lot of people are taking on debt at record levels. Taking on debt requires people to be confident that they will be able to pay it off for years into the future. That takes faith.

Consumer debt to GDP ratio has been declining for over a decade:

All that says is that consumers are unable to keep up with the Fed.

 

[Mac1958]

So we’re to the punt that the socialism we now have in place is going to destroy the nation no matter what.

I sure hope not.

What I think we need to do is recognize the obvious fact that this all exists on a fragile continuum, and work to find and maintain that continuum without ignorantly screaming SOCIALISM at every last damn thing that moves.
.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Cutting the Federal government in 1/2 and stop paying welfare to shitfucks who sit on the lazy liberal butts. It isnt a revenue problem, it is a government spending problem.

Well, Trump sure as hell is not going to do that.

This year we are taking in the largest tax revenues ever. Liberal policies are spending 1 trillion more. 1 trillion dollars gets paid to the War on Poverty. Stop paying for that endless war, the budget is balanced.

It is not just Liberal policies, both parties are big spending parties, neither have any desire to cut spending, the only disagreement is where the money should be spent.

Have to take back the house, and when Nan from San Fransicko gives up the gavel, you will see spending cuts...

That sounds awesome...yet during the two years that the Repubs held the House, the Senate and the White House deficits rose by 33%.

Quit being a parrot for your party, look at reality.

Oh, but that was righteous irresponsible spending. See the difference?


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[Crepitus]

REAL NEWS: Trump economy is unbeatable.

FAKE NEWS: This is because of Fed, and not because of Trump winning.

Trump is possibly the first president ever during whom money printer was turned off.

Once Trump wins in 2020 the deficit will get fixed, even more winning.

Damn dude. Talk about partisan brainwashing.

Yiuv got it bad.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

Cutting the Federal government in 1/2 and stop paying welfare to shitfucks who sit on the lazy liberal butts. It isnt a revenue problem, it is a government spending problem.

Well, Trump sure as hell is not going to do that.

This year we are taking in the largest tax revenues ever. Liberal policies are spending 1 trillion more. 1 trillion dollars gets paid to the War on Poverty. Stop paying for that endless war, the budget is balanced.

It is not just Liberal policies, both parties are big spending parties, neither have any desire to cut spending, the only disagreement is where the money should be spent.

Have to take back the house, and when Nan from San Fransicko gives up the gavel, you will see spending cuts...

That sounds awesome...yet during the two years that the Repubs held the House, the Senate and the White House deficits rose by 33%.

Quit being a parrot for your party, look at reality.

You seem to have forgot some democrat votes were needed to pass the budget. And those same democrats are the ones that shut the government down because they didn’t get the money they wanted to spend.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

So we’re to the punt that the socialism we now have in place is going to destroy the nation no matter what.

I sure hope not.

What I think we need to do is recognize the obvious fact that this all exists on a fragile continuum, and work to find and maintain that continuum without ignorantly screaming SOCIALISM at every last damn thing that moves.
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I agree that we should not yell "socialism" at everything. At the same time, anything that's not socialism does not necessarily mean it's good.

Again, why should we not be allowed to decide how to spend our money? Why should government get to take it from us and spend it the way government wants to spend it?

.

 

[22lcidw]

I know this thread will degenerate quickly into platitudes, talking points and insults, but what the hell.

Right now the economy is in good shape. Friday's employment & hiring figures were freakin' outstanding to say the least, and there's a good chance we'll keep purring along for the foreseeable future. And that's not something you can always say. So, that's some pretty damn good stuff.

While this is happening, Trump and his supporters are predictably crowing and very proud. Yeah, I can see that, and it's certainly amplified by the current partisan political environment. Yeah, I get that too.

The three largest factors -- and even the slightest internet research will confirm this -- driving this expansion are (1) the aggressive tax cuts, (2) the aggressive increase in government spending, and (3) the Fed pouring HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS into markets to grease the system.

Then, on top of that will be the increase in confidence and positivity with both consumers and businesses. Icing on the cake, good stuff, let's go.

So perhaps Trump supporters can explain why they're so against socialism. Two of the largest three contributing stimulative factors -- massive government spending and the Fed's actions -- would have been considered terrible just four years ago, yet the attacks on socialism (whatever the hell the definition is that the person is using) are only escalating.

Can someone explain this, reasonably, civilly, intelligently, and with original, independent thought?
.

I’m against socialism for the exact things you’re posting about here. It’s not sustainable.

By your own admission you are acknowledging this reality. Although I think you meant it to be a pro socialism post but I’ll play along for a bit.

Of the three issues you brought up which one would you like to see reversed first?

Raise taxes.
Reign in the FED.
Cut spending.

Yes, I don't want a high degree of socialism, I don't want Bernie in there. I'm a capitalist.

And yes, the three solutions you provide would be correct.

The point is, the crowing about a good economy being driven (at least in part) by what many on the Right call "socialism".

I hope this period will open a few eyes to the obvious, that the economy is not binary, it's about a proper equilibrium.
.
.

You didn’t answer my question. Prioritize the three choices. Which one do you take on first.

I don't know why it matters, since it's a moot point.

The massively increased spending and tax cuts are already baked in and set. So trying to stop the Fed would be the only #1.
.

So we’re to the punt that the socialism we now have in place is going to destroy the nation no matter what.

I think paying for what we got is a full plate already. Resources can be manuvered to affect the programs we already have and at the same time lower the stresses on people for what they pay to the government and to private companies to live.

 

[Mac1958]

Again, why should we not be allowed to decide how to spend our money? Why should government get to take it from us and spend it the way government wants to spend it?

You won't agree with the answer: Because we're all in this together, and it's prudent to find a point at which we recognize how to approach that, without putting too much of a drag on the dynamics of capitalism.

Just remember: People who disagree with you, vote. And those on the Right who are playing this all-or-nothing game are taking a huge risk.

And one more thing: If we all have input on something, we all share responsibility for the outcome. That makes figuring this stuff out even MORE important.
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[SAYIT]

Obama did the only thing he could do: He stood back as the Fed pumped $4.5T into markets.

That was digging us out of a catastrophe. This is happening in a non-recessionary period, something Keynes himself would have opposed.
.

Faith in the economy and American capitalism must be maintained at any cost. That is the only economic philosophy at work right now.

Faith in the economy is long gone.

Consumer debt is what really drives growth in the economy. A whole lot of people are taking on debt at record levels. Taking on debt requires people to be confident that they will be able to pay it off for years into the future. That takes faith.

Consumer debt to GDP ratio has been declining for over a decade:

All that says is that consumers are unable to keep up with the Fed.

If that were true we'd have had runaway inflation over the same period. The economy is in balance … just the right amount of dollars chasing the goods and services we produce. Your fear-mongering sounds suspiciously like the Chicken Little "Recession, Recession" cries of a year ago:

The Next Recession Is Coming. Now What?

And of one Nobel Prize winning jackass:

Paul Krugman: Trump will bring global recession

 

[P@triot]

So you're saying that a massive increase in government spending and Fed intervention are not stimulative?

The Fed “intervened” far more under Barack Obama than any president in U.S. history. And yet, he was the only president to serve 8 years and not experience a single year of 3% or more GDP growth.

On top of that, Obama took office with a $10 trillion national debt and promptly ran that up to over $20 trillion. He single-handedly added more to the national debt in 8 years than all presidents in U.S. history combined did in 235 years.

So if government spending and fed intervention were the keys to this epic Trump economy, Obama would have had 25% GDP growth and 0.0% unemployment.

Ignorant, much?

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

You won't agree with the answer: Because we're all in this together, and it's prudent to find a point at which we recognize that fiscally without putting too much of a drag on the dynamics of capitalism.

What do you mean by "we're all in this together"?

.

 

[Mac1958]

Faith in the economy and American capitalism must be maintained at any cost. That is the only economic philosophy at work right now.

Faith in the economy is long gone.

Consumer debt is what really drives growth in the economy. A whole lot of people are taking on debt at record levels. Taking on debt requires people to be confident that they will be able to pay it off for years into the future. That takes faith.

Consumer debt to GDP ratio has been declining for over a decade:

All that says is that consumers are unable to keep up with the Fed.

If that were true we'd have had runaway inflation over the same period. The economy is in balance … just the right amount of dollars chasing the goods and services we produce. Your fear-mongering sounds suspiciously like the Chicken Little "Recession, Recession" cries of a year ago:

The Next Recession Is Coming. Now What?

And of one Nobel Prize winning jackass:

Paul Krugman: Trump will bring global recession

Krugman is a great example of what happens when an economist mixes economics with partisan politics. Bad stuff.

Krugman, Reich, Moore, Kudlow, all of them.

Economists are great when they stay in their lane. The moment they go partisan, they're worthless. Or worse.
.

 

[occupied]

Sadly Obama supporters defended him inflating the economy in the same way Trump is.

Obama did the only thing he could do: He stood back as the Fed pumped $4.5T into markets.

That was digging us out of a catastrophe. This is happening in a non-recessionary period, something Keynes himself would have opposed.
.

Faith in the economy and American capitalism must be maintained at any cost. That is the only economic philosophy at work right now.

Faith in the economy is long gone.

Consumer debt is what really drives growth in the economy. A whole lot of people are taking on debt at record levels. Taking on debt requires people to be confident that they will be able to pay it off for years into the future. That takes faith.

Consumer debt to GDP ratio has been declining for over a decade:

We passed passed the pre-2008 levels of private sector debt quite some time ago. It's almost like no one learned a thing. For me the very worst part of the great recession was paying my various debts while dealing with a dramatically reduced income. Today I owe no one.

 

[Mac1958]

You won't agree with the answer: Because we're all in this together, and it's prudent to find a point at which we recognize that fiscally without putting too much of a drag on the dynamics of capitalism.

What do you mean by "we're all in this together"?

.

Come on. We all live in the same country, around each other. I don't need to explain that.
.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Cutting the Federal government in 1/2 and stop paying welfare to shitfucks who sit on the lazy liberal butts. It isnt a revenue problem, it is a government spending problem.

Well, Trump sure as hell is not going to do that.

This year we are taking in the largest tax revenues ever. Liberal policies are spending 1 trillion more. 1 trillion dollars gets paid to the War on Poverty. Stop paying for that endless war, the budget is balanced.

It is not just Liberal policies, both parties are big spending parties, neither have any desire to cut spending, the only disagreement is where the money should be spent.

Have to take back the house, and when Nan from San Fransicko gives up the gavel, you will see spending cuts...

That sounds awesome...yet during the two years that the Repubs held the House, the Senate and the White House deficits rose by 33%.

Quit being a parrot for your party, look at reality.

You seem to have forgot some democrat votes were needed to pass the budget. And those same democrats are the ones that shut the government down because they didn’t get the money they wanted to spend.

And this is why we have a 23 trillion dollar deficit. The party loyalist will never, ever blame their own party, it is always the other side's fault. This has been going on for decades and you sheep have not figured it out yet.

 

[eagle1462010]

Mandatory Spending is the Elephant in the Room.................And the bulk of that spending is Social Spending Period.......................FDR grand plan to go against the Constitution and the Enumerated Powers.

These programs and the Unfunded Liabilities GUARANTEE that the debt will continue to grow............

So this Thread is NOTHING MORE than another YOU BROKE THE LAMP..........No YOU DID BS thread..........

Unfunded Liabilities will financially destroy this nation eventually..............along with the Bonds and Fiat Currency system.

The Temp measures by the Fed were to make a correction on the Bond Markets......The Fed is NOT THE GOV'T..............

Please continue with the BLAME GAME .....as we enjoy the ride to the end of the tracks that aren't finished yet.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

So we’re to the punt that the socialism we now have in place is going to destroy the nation no matter what.

I sure hope not.

What I think we need to do is recognize the obvious fact that this all exists on a fragile continuum, and work to find and maintain that continuum without ignorantly screaming SOCIALISM at every last damn thing that moves.
.

So the solution to the socialism problem we have is to stop bringing up the dangers of socialism. Instead of pointing out the debt driving factors of the socialist programs we have let’s just be quiet and let more of it happen. That will fix everything.

 

[Mac1958]

So you're saying that a massive increase in government spending and Fed intervention are not stimulative?

The Fed “intervened” far more under Barack Obama than any president in U.S. history. And yet, he was the only president to serve 8 years and not experience a single year of 3% or more GDP growth.

On top of that, Obama took office with a $10 trillion national debt and promptly ran that up to over $20 trillion. He single-handedly added more to the national debt in 8 years than all presidents in U.S. history combined did in 235 years.

So if government spending and fed intervention were the keys to this epic Trump economy, Obama would have had 25% GDP growth and 0.0% unemployment.

Ignorant, much?

You appear to think that the two Presidents were operating under the same conditions.

There's nothing I can say there. I believe that you believe that.

Thanks for your input.
.

 

[Mac1958]

So we’re to the punt that the socialism we now have in place is going to destroy the nation no matter what.

I sure hope not.

What I think we need to do is recognize the obvious fact that this all exists on a fragile continuum, and work to find and maintain that continuum without ignorantly screaming SOCIALISM at every last damn thing that moves.
.

So the solution to the socialism problem we have is to stop bringing up the dangers of socialism. Instead of pointing out the debt driving factors of the socialist programs we have let’s just be quiet and let more of it happen. That will fix everything.

Why would you think that?
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