Zone1 Unbeliever: You Are Responsible

[Bob Blaylock]

Does repenting of sin render us sinless, as God requires?

So simply saying, "I'm sorry God, forgive me" and then striving to do better makes us sinless?

A Holy God does not require "good enough". He requires perfection. The commandment at the end of the Sermon on the Mount is: "Be perfect, as your Father is perfect"

My take is that in the end, perfect sinlessness is what is required. None of us are capable of that.

So what •IS• required of us is that we do the best that we can, to avoid sin, and to repent of any sin that we do commit; and if we make our best effort at that, then Jesus' sacrifice covers the rest.

 

[Meriweather]

Does repenting of sin render us sinless, as God requires?

So simply saying, "I'm sorry God, forgive me" and then striving to do better makes us sinless?

A Holy God does not require "good enough". He requires perfection. The commandment at the end of the Sermon on the Mount is: "Be perfect, as your Father is perfect"

How is this perfection to be attained? If I thought my repentance were enough to accomplish it, I would do nothing BUT repent, all day, every day. And even THAT would not be enough. Look at the sermon. Do not think ill of others; do not look at lust with another, do not worry. All sins. By that reckoning, none of us are saved.

Repentance never did, and COULD never, achieve the forgiveness of sin. Not completely. That's not to say it's not valuable, even essential. But it would never, not ever, have been enough.

Jesus was able to tell people "Your sins are forgiven" because He is God. He knew who was saved. He KNOWS who is saved. He could see this.

This is not an indication whatsoever that our repentance "activates" a sinless state. Because it does not. I believe it cannot.

The English word 'repent' means to be sorry. Go back to the original languages, even the Greek, and repentance has nothing to do with saying "I'm sorry." The original means to change one's mind about what one has done and to do the opposite instead. Let's take lying. When Jesus said 'repent' he was saying, Change your mind about lying. Tell the truth instead. Turn away from disobedience, he said, and to obedience. Repentance is not an apology to God. It is a change of heart towards God and His ways.

 

[Meriweather]

Let me rephrase you that. Do you believe a person can be saved (granted Eternal life) WITHOUT recognizing Christs gift in His sacrifice? It appears you do.

Can you point to where Jesus said, "Recognize the sacrifice I am making in order to enter the Kingdom?" Jesus' Way was to turn away (repent) from disobedience and turn instead towards obedience. His way brings one face-to-face with the Father. Is their any other faith that teaches this?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

The English word 'repent' means to be sorry. Go back to the original languages, even the Greek, and repentance has nothing to do with saying "I'm sorry." The original means to change one's mind about what one has done and to do the opposite instead. Let's take lying. When Jesus said 'repent' he was saying, Change your mind about lying. Tell the truth instead. Turn away from disobedience, he said, and to obedience. Repentance is not an apology to God. It is a change of heart towards God and His ways.

Yes, all those things, but more

Psalm 51:17 CSB - “My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise. ”

When we sin and desire forgiveness, a broken heart and a contrite spirit mean to experience “godly sorrow [that] worketh repentance” (2 Corinthians 7:10). This comes when our desire to be cleansed from sin is so consuming that our hearts ache with sorrow and we yearn to feel at peace with our Father in Heaven.

 

[SweetSue92]

"Do you think they were sinners above all others? I tell you, 'no, they were not.' But, EXCEPT YOU REPENT, YOU SHALL ALL LIKEWISE PERISH! (In the Lake of Fire)

That is the repentance of salvation, yes.

 

[SweetSue92]

My take is that in the end, perfect sinlessness is what is required. None of us are capable of that.

So what •IS• required of us is that we do the best that we can, to avoid sin, and to repent of any sin that we do commit; and if we make our best effort at that, then Jesus' sacrifice covers the rest.

No. That's the Joseph Smith take, and it's wrong.

Jesus sacrifice is sufficient, from the beginning, to cover all. That does not mean we have grace to sin all we like and meh. Sin has grave consequences and Paul covers this extensively.

But no where in the Bible does it say, or even imply, that Jesus' sacrifice is only to cover our "overage". Nope.

 

[SweetSue92]

Can you point to where Jesus said, "Recognize the sacrifice I am making in order to enter the Kingdom?" Jesus' Way was to turn away (repent) from disobedience and turn instead towards obedience. His way brings one face-to-face with the Father. Is their any other faith that teaches this?

Yes, all of them. Every single one. Faith by works. Every one.

Christianity is different. Well, not the way you have rendered it, sadly. But actual Christianity is different. It says we are powerless to do it; God had to do it, by lovingly providing His perfect Son--the perfect sacrifice.

It's too bad you have rendered Christianity into something so much like all other faiths: a great teacher to follow.

It is that only after it is so much more.

 

[SweetSue92]

The English word 'repent' means to be sorry. Go back to the original languages, even the Greek, and repentance has nothing to do with saying "I'm sorry." The original means to change one's mind about what one has done and to do the opposite instead. Let's take lying. When Jesus said 'repent' he was saying, Change your mind about lying. Tell the truth instead. Turn away from disobedience, he said, and to obedience. Repentance is not an apology to God. It is a change of heart towards God and His ways.

None of that confers to us the sinless state necessary to enter Heaven. None of it.

Only one thing does: the sacrifice on the Cross. That's it. When Jesus said "The Kingdom is among you", make no mistake, He was looking to the next world. He wasn't saying, "this here, this is now Heaven on earth". No, He was saying here is a bit of eternity--Me--come to you, on earth.

I don't know if you consider yourself Catholic...do you? Because this is not even Catholic doctrine, what you're espousing here.

 

[Red Front]

From pastor James Johnston:

"If you are not a believer, you are responsible for what the skies above have been telling you since the day you were born. You ought to worship God. The apostle Paul writes in Romans 1:20--'For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made, so they are without excuse.'"

And from Psalm 19:

"The heavens declare the glory of God
And the sky above proclaims His handiwork.
Day to day pours out speech
And night to night reveals knowledge."

Note that there is a message in the beauty, wonder, and majesty of the heavens. Do not miss it. Today is the day of salvation!

What constitutes "worshiping" a deity? How does this universe, which is constantly trying to kill us, point to a particular religion like Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism...etc? Does this deity of yours, keep people conscious in hell for all eternity for not converting to your religion? How is that written in the heavens? How is it obvious, that we are all the descendants of Adam and Eve, who ate from the wrong fruit tree after being tempted by a talking snake? Do you really believe the whole universe, with trillions of galaxies, went helter-skelter when a caveman and his wife ate from the wrong fruit tree? How is this supposed to convince any rational, modern person, who has a modicum of intelligence and knowledge of our world?

Most people with a conscience will find a deity that demands everyone convert to a particular religion, and "worship" him or her, under the threat of being tortured for all eternity, repulsive and evil. Only those who are terrorized, fearful, and immature, will grovel at the feet of such an egotistical, sadistic entity with such a lack of genuine compassion for humanity. How petty can a god be, to create a broken world full of broken people and demand them to be perfect, under threat of being tortured forever? Why should every creature on Earth suffer because a caveman and his wife ate from the "wrong fruit tree"? If people don't believe your religious nonsense they get tortured forever in the eternal fiery trashbin.

The true God dwells in people's conscience and good behavior (constructive thoughts and actions). Everything that is noble and affirms life, is God. Every pattern of thought and behavior, that contributes to the survival and flourishing of life, increasing civility, compassion, empathy, cooperation, and a sense of community between individuals, that's GOD. He is Love and His justice is always tempered with His divine mercy and wisdom. He repairs and reforms the broken, redeems the unredeemable, restoring and regenerating the sick in character, and resurrecting the conscience of the ignorant and lost. I sense God here:

​

I don't sense that your god is GOD. He seems like an imaginary entity created in the image of primitive men from the bronze age. A mental projection of ancient men, who thought the world was flat and the sky was covered by a dome/firmament.

 

[Meriweather]

When we sin and desire forgiveness, a broken heart and a contrite spirit mean to experience “godly sorrow [that] worketh repentance” (2 Corinthians 7:10). This comes when our desire to be cleansed from sin is so consuming that our hearts ache with sorrow and we yearn to feel at peace with our Father in Heaven.

We can boo-hoo all day long, but a truly contrite heart and a true sorrow result in changing one's mind about the sin to the extent it is not committed again.

 

[Meriweather]

But no where in the Bible does it say, or even imply, that Jesus' sacrifice is only to cover our "overage". Nope.

True repentance requires that, to the extent possible, amends are made to correct the hurt/harm we have caused. However, some hurts are so great that even after amends are made, it takes the Holy Spirit to truly heal the soul. We pray for that.

 

[SweetSue92]

True repentance requires that, to the extent possible, amends are made to correct the hurt/harm we have caused. However, some hurts are so great that even after amends are made, it takes the Holy Spirit to truly heal the soul. We pray for that.

I'm confused as to how this addressed my post?

 

[Meriweather]

Christianity is different. Well, not the way you have rendered it, sadly. But actual Christianity is different. It says we are powerless to do it; God had to do it, by lovingly providing His perfect Son--the perfect sacrifice.

In fact, Christianity shows what great faith God has in us. He trusts we can learn to follow His ways, do His will on Earth as it is done in heaven. He has faith we can be invaluable servants. It is a matter of learning to know, trust and serve God, not viewing God as servant, but as Lord.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm confused as to how this addressed my post?

What confuses you?

 

[SweetSue92]

In fact, Christianity shows what great faith God has in us. He trusts we can learn to follow His ways, do His will on Earth as it is done in heaven. He has faith we can be invaluable servants. It is a matter of learning to know, trust and serve God, not viewing God as servant, but as Lord.

He knows we CANNOT follow His way at all, in fact. The Bible is full of this. Israel could not follow God.

Until we are saved, we are, well, lost to it. We CANNOT find Christ. We haven't the will to do so.

We are saved first. Then all of the above begins.

 

[Meriweather]

None of that confers to us the sinless state necessary to enter Heaven. None of it.

Only one thing does: the sacrifice on the Cross. That's it. When Jesus said "The Kingdom is among you", make no mistake, He was looking to the next world. He wasn't saying, "this here, this is now Heaven on earth". No, He was saying here is a bit of eternity--Me--come to you, on earth.

I don't know if you consider yourself Catholic...do you? Because this is not even Catholic doctrine, what you're espousing here.

Strange. It is what I was taught by the Catholic Church.

Sue, we have very different perspectives, which is wonderful. If you feel it doesn't matter how sinful you are in when you enter heaven because Christ's death shields you, that's what you believe. God sees into our hearts and God has expectations of us. His expectation for you, I trust, is that you not worry about a thing, it is all taken care of.

I, too, believe it is all taken care of, based on God created heaven for His children, and He welcomes all who welcome and have faith in Him and His ways.

However, where we differ, is that I believe the Kingdom is indeed within our reach here on earth as the Kingdom is about a way of living. Recall Jesus noted that sinners and prostitutes are (present tense) entering into the Kingdom ahead of others.

 

[Meriweather]

He knows we CANNOT follow His way at all, in fact. The Bible is full of this. Israel could not follow God.

"Here I am, Lord. Send me."

 

[Meriweather]

Until we are saved, we are, well, lost to it. We CANNOT find Christ. We haven't the will to do so.

We are saved first. Then all of the above begins.

Catholic teaching: By his Cross and Resurrection, Jesus redeemed the world. All of it.

It opened the way of salvation that Jesus taught. We can turn away from our sins, we can turn from disobedience to obedience. The only question that remains is, Will we?

 

[SweetSue92]

Strange. It is what I was taught by the Catholic Church.

Sue, we have very different perspectives, which is wonderful. If you feel it doesn't matter how sinful you are in when you enter heaven because Christ's death shields you, that's what you believe. God sees into our hearts and God has expectations of us. His expectation for you, I trust, is that you not worry about a thing, it is all taken care of.

I, too, believe it is all taken care of, based on God created heaven for His children, and He welcomes all who welcome and have faith in Him and His ways.

However, where we differ, is that I believe the Kingdom is indeed within our reach here on earth as the Kingdom is about a way of living. Recall Jesus noted that sinners and prostitutes are (present tense) entering into the Kingdom ahead of others.

You cannot enter Heaven with sin. Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice was not and is not a "shield"--it is sufficient until the very end.

But the rest is mostly parsing about whether the Kingdom is here or in Heaven, I agree. Where you come very close to blasphemy is where you minimize the Blood of Christ and what was accomplished on the Cross. It is THAT which saves. Not our own "journey" with Christ. The journey is wonderful, but not capable of saving.

 

[SweetSue92]

Catholic teaching: By his Cross and Resurrection, Jesus redeemed the world. All of it.

It opened the way of salvation that Jesus taught. We can turn away from our sins, we can turn from disobedience to obedience. The only question that remains is, Will we?

May I remind you that Catholics also believe Mary remained a perpetual virgin and also ascended into heaven--all of that without any support from Scripture whatsoever.