Zone1 Unbeliever: You Are Responsible

[Red Front]

Strange. It is what I was taught by the Catholic Church.

Sue, we have very different perspectives, which is wonderful. If you feel it doesn't matter how sinful you are in when you enter heaven because Christ's death shields you, that's what you believe. God sees into our hearts and God has expectations of us. His expectation for you, I trust, is that you not worry about a thing, it is all taken care of.

I, too, believe it is all taken care of, based on God created heaven for His children, and He welcomes all who welcome and have faith in Him and His ways.

However, where we differ, is that I believe the Kingdom is indeed within our reach here on earth as the Kingdom is about a way of living. Recall Jesus noted that sinners and prostitutes are (present tense) entering into the Kingdom ahead of others.

Only Christians are saved?

 

[Red Front]

May I remind you that Catholics also believe Mary remained a perpetual virgin and also ascended into heaven--all of that without any support from Scripture whatsoever.

So over half of Christendom is wrong about such things? Are they wrong about other aspects of the Christian faith as well? What brand of Christianity do the lost need to convert to, to avoid being tortured in hell for all eternity by your deity?

 

[Red Front]

He knows we CANNOT follow His way at all, in fact. The Bible is full of this. Israel could not follow God.

Until we are saved, we are, well, lost to it. We CANNOT find Christ. We haven't the will to do so.

We are saved first. Then all of the above begins.

You bible contradicts what you're saying. According to the tribal god of the Israelites, they indeed can keep his commandments and be righteous. One is saved through the keeping of his laws and he explicitly states that his chosen people can keep his commandments.

"If thou shalt hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law; if you turn unto the Lord thy God with all your heart and with all your soul. ''For this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you neither is it too far off. ‘It is not in heaven, that you should say: “Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, and make us hear it, that we may do it?’ '*Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say: “Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it that we may do it?’ ‘But the word Is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it." (Deuteronomy 30:10-14)

The conclusion of Deuteronomy 30:14, “that you may do it” (i.e., keep the commandments), is an anathema to every idea that Paul vigorously promoted (Gal. 3:13). Therefore, in Romans 10:8, Paul completely expunged this offensive phrase. In fact, the entire 30" chapter of Deuteronomy testifies that one can keep the mitzvoth (the commandments).

There are also other passages in the Hebrew Bible that attest to the fact, that the deity of the Israelites believed people could keep his commandments and become righteous. He even believed that David and other human beings had kept his commandments, and met his standard of human righteousness. You Christians are confused.

 

[SweetSue92]

You bible contradicts what you're saying. According to the tribal god of the Israelites, they indeed can keep his commandments and be righteous. One is saved through the keeping of his laws and he explicitly states that his chosen people can keep his commandments.

"If thou shalt hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law; if you turn unto the Lord thy God with all your heart and with all your soul. ''For this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you neither is it too far off. ‘It is not in heaven, that you should say: “Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, and make us hear it, that we may do it?’ '*Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say: “Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it that we may do it?’ ‘But the word Is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it." (Deuteronomy 30:10-14)

The conclusion of Deuteronomy 30:14, “that you may do it” (i.e., keep the commandments), is an anathema to every idea that Paul vigorously promoted (Gal. 3:13). Therefore, in Romans 10:8, Paul completely expunged this offensive phrase. In fact, the entire 30" chapter of Deuteronomy testifies that one can keep the mitzvoth (the commandments).

There are also other passages in the Hebrew Bible that attest to the fact, that the deity of the Israelites believed people could keep his commandments and become righteous. He even believed that David and other human beings had kept his commandments, and met his standard of human righteousness. You Christians are confused.

So now you're not a Christian again?

Fascinating

 

[Red Front]

So now you're not a Christian again?

Fascinating

Gaslighting much? It's called, pursuing the truth, wherever it leads you. That sometimes involves changing your position and embracing that which you sincerely believe is true.

However, I was never really a Christian. As a communist, I saw Jesus as an early, pre-Marxian communist. I still do. I also believe the first Christians were theistic communists because, under the guidance of the 12 apostles, they strictly followed the actual teachings of Jesus. Later, mainly through Paul's gospel, Christianity became Paulianity. Paul is the true founder of your brand of Christianity. I like Jesus and his apostles, but I'm disgusted by most modern Christians, especially American Evangelicals, due to how hypocritical they are with their cynical, big-money politics and defense of the rich at the expense of the poor and working-class people. You "Christians" are the opposite of Jesus.

Catholics tend to be more academic (intelligent, thoughtful) and generally, don't hold the poor in contempt. They're friendlier towards the poor and aren't as "right-wing " as American protestants are. The official stance of the Catholic church is that even an agnostic atheist like me, can be saved through Jesus, provided my rejection of Christian dogma is in line with my conscience. If I'm genuinely following my conscience, then according to the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church, I can be saved. Catholics don't throw all non-Christians into the lake of fire, as most Protestants do.

 

[Meriweather]

Where you come very close to blasphemy is where you minimize the Blood of Christ and what was accomplished on the Cross. It is THAT which saves.

Alright, I am taking a deep breath. But how dare you! I know people can misunderstand, but this one floats right into deliberate ignorance!

Jesus' death CANNOT be minimized. He gave his life so that we might know SINS ARE FORGIVEN. He gave his life to teach us the way of salvation, discerning the will of God and following it. I can't count the number of sins I have not committed due to following Christ, and therefore I cannot count the number of sins that were not committed against me--and those I love--because they, too, were followers of Christ. When we say Jesus takes away the sins of the world, we live it--everyone does, whether they know it or not.

Your idea that God just needed to punish Jesus for other peoples' sins in order to get a certain type of believer into heaven, but eliminate all others....As I said before, that is between you and God. He meets everyone where they are and works from there.

 

[Meriweather]

May I remind you that Catholics also believe Mary remained a perpetual virgin and also ascended into heaven--all of that without any support from Scripture whatsoever.

Why do you think I need reminded of that? New Testament scripture followed Apostolic Tradition. Catholics retain both both tradition and scripture. It's not anything that's forgettable.

 

[Red Front]

Alright, I am taking a deep breath. But how dare you! I know people can misunderstand, but this one floats right into deliberate ignorance!

Jesus' death CANNOT be minimized. He gave his life so that we might know SINS ARE FORGIVEN. He gave his life to teach us the way of salvation, discerning the will of God and following it. I can't count the number of sins I have not committed due to following Christ, and therefore I cannot count the number of sins that were not committed against me--and those I love--because they, too, were followers of Christ. When we say Jesus takes away the sins of the world, we live it--everyone does, whether they know it or not.

Your idea that God just needed to punish Jesus for other peoples' sins in order to get a certain type of believer into heaven, but eliminate all others....As I said before, that is between you and God. He meets everyone where they are and works from there.

Calvinism is evil.

 

[Crepitus]

From pastor James Johnston:

"If you are not a believer, you are responsible for what the skies above have been telling you since the day you were born. You ought to worship God. The apostle Paul writes in Romans 1:20--'For His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made, so they are without excuse.'"

And from Psalm 19:

"The heavens declare the glory of God
And the sky above proclaims His handiwork.
Day to day pours out speech
And night to night reveals knowledge."

Note that there is a message in the beauty, wonder, and majesty of the heavens. Do not miss it. Today is the day of salvation!

 

[Red Front]

They're like this:

 

[Crepitus]

He explains his reasoning further in the first quote. It comes from Romans 1: God's divine nature is revealed in creation, so man is "without excuse".

God is the original abusive partner.

"you're nothing without me"

"you aren't worthy of my love"

"you need me to be whole"

"only I can save you"

"only I know what you need"

"you must submit to me"

"if you leave me I will punish you, you will be in hell"

Fuck that.

 

[Meriweather]

Only Christians are saved?

Two points to remember: Jesus told his disciples to proclaim the Gospel he gave them because that is the way to the Kingdom of God. We have Christ's promise of that.

Jesus also said he had other flocks.

The Catholic Catechism notes that it can only assure people that it is teaching Christ's way into the Kingdom. It points out God also has an eternal covenant with the Jews. The Catechism mentions that the Church cannot assume just because it cannot teach all people to be Christian, and it cannot assume that the Spirit of God does not reach them in other ways. The Catholic Church leaves all of this in the hands of a merciful and loving God.

Basically the Church is saying that it cannot (for example) assure Buddhists that they will be in heaven because this was not handed down to them by Jesus during his time on earth. The Church cannot presume any further than to assure those who are not Christian that they are in the hands of a merciful and loving God. The Catechism also notes that the Catholic Church does not know who--if anyone--is not in heaven.

 

[SweetSue92]

Gaslighting much? It's called, pursuing the truth, wherever it leads you. That sometimes involves changing your position and embracing that which you sincerely believe is true.

However, I was never really a Christian. As a communist, I saw Jesus as an early, pre-Marxian communist. I still do. I also believe the first Christians were theistic communists because, under the guidance of the 12 apostles, they strictly followed the actual teachings of Jesus. Later, mainly through Paul's gospel, Christianity became Paulianity. Paul is the true founder of your brand of Christianity. I like Jesus and his apostles, but I'm disgusted by most modern Christians, especially American Evangelicals, due to how hypocritical they are with their cynical, big-money politics and defense of the rich at the expense of the poor and working-class people. You "Christians" are the opposite of Jesus.

Catholics tend to be more academic (intelligent, thoughtful) and generally, don't hold the poor in contempt. They're friendlier towards the poor and aren't as "right-wing " as American protestants are. The official stance of the Catholic church is that even an agnostic atheist like me, can be saved through Jesus, provided my rejection of Christian dogma is in line with my conscience. If I'm genuinely following my conscience, then according to the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church, I can be saved. Catholics don't throw all non-Christians into the lake of fire, as most Protestants do.

I'm sorry, no one over the age of about 20 should change major life positions like you do weekly. Maybe more.

 

[SweetSue92]

God is the original abusive partner.

"you're nothing without me"

"you aren't worthy of my love"

"you need me to be whole"

"only I can save you"

"only I know what you need"

"you must submit to me"

"if you leave me I will punish you, you will be in hell"

Fuck that.

This is why our nation is in the shape it's in, actually.

 

[SweetSue92]

Your idea that God just needed to punish Jesus for other peoples' sins in order to get a certain type of believer into heaven, but eliminate all others....As I said before, that is between you and God. He meets everyone where they are and works from there.

No. It is not my idea.

That's the Gospel. And frankly, I find it insulting to think that my Lord and Savior would go to die a death like that not SO THAT sins would be forgiven, but just so that we may "know" they are.

No. Just said on the Cross, it is finished. It is *accomplished*. It was not symbolic.

 

[SweetSue92]

Why do you think I need reminded of that? New Testament scripture followed Apostolic Tradition. Catholics retain both both tradition and scripture. It's not anything that's forgettable.

So--

The apostles were cool when they were talking about Mary....

But Paul instructing the early churches in multiple letters, no way?

(BTW, for what it's worth, I think you're almost certainly a lovely person and you're not wrong about emulating Jesus. I fear that your instruction reduces Him to a "good teacher" and that's not what the world needs. Good teachers can be heeded or not. He was so much more. He IS so much more.)

 

[Red Front]

I'm sorry, no one over the age of about 20 should change major life positions like you do weekly. Maybe more.

Weekly? That's a disingenuous critique of my views and person. Gaslighting, ad hominem attacks, are often the refuge of a weak argument. You're unable to refute anything I've said and defend your deeply cherished religious assertions with a well-reasoned argument, hence you attack me personally. Arguments stand or fall on their own merits, not upon the character of the person arguing them.

I understand you're a vulnerable elderly woman, that has probably lived her whole life or a better part of it, thinking she's a disciple of Jesus and "Christian", hence when presented with a real objection to her religious fantasies she gets passive-aggressive and attacks the person who challenged her faith. You don't have a reasonable response, because your religion is unreasonable. How can your god torture people in hell for rejecting a bunch of nonsense?

 

[SweetSue92]

Weekly? That's a disingenuous critique of my views and person. Gaslighting, ad hominem attacks, are often the refuge of a weak argument. You're unable to refute anything I've said and defend your deeply cherished religious assertions with a well-reasoned argument, hence you attack me personally.

I understand you're a vulnerable elderly woman, that has probably lived her whole life or a better part of it, thinking she's a disciple of Jesus and "Christian", hence when presented with a real objection to her religious fantasies she gets passive-aggressive and attacks the person who challenged her faith. You don't have a reasonable response, because your religion is unreasonable. How can your god torture people in hell for rejecting a bunch of nonsense?

I am your age. Are you elderly?

 

[Red Front]

I am your age. Are you elderly?

I'm 50 years old. So why do you believe in this nonsense?

 

[SweetSue92]

I'm 50 years old. So why do you believe in this nonsense?

I am not going to spend my time debating anyone who will change their position AGAIN next week, and then again, their username and avatar.

At 50 years old. If you want to talk about your real life issues, start a topic on that.