Zone1 Unbeliever: You Are Responsible

[Meriweather]

So, just nice stories written to cheer people up.

Shaking head. Never mind.

 

[LibertyKid]

Example?

Christ is the example. We see a completely different view of God through Christ. The gospels have multiple accounts of Christ breaking the law and teaching differently. It's not that hard to see.

why? The OT is great for understanding God’s promise of a redeemer and in understanding why we need the redeemer.

Correct to a point. But the problem is when modern westernized Christians try to harmonize, incorrectly OT laws and depictions of God with what it means to be a "Christian" today.

A good example is tithing. Tithing in the OT was a temple tax due to the Jews having a theocracy. And their "tax" was more than 10%. Yet, we have modern Christians and preachers that pick and choose OT scriptures to manipulate Christians to give because they will be "Cursed" by God.

Paul in writing to the church in Corinth advised to give according to what you have decided in your heart. And keep in mind, that Corinth was mostly Gentiles. I'm not a Jew, therefore I'm a gentile. Therefore I give to charity as I choose and feel compelled.
But we are not Jews. In the end, the only thing that matters for Christian, IMO, is your belief in Christ and his teachings. No commandment for Christians to believe or read the OT. We are gentiles.

The evil nations will be destroyed by their own hands. Babylon always falls, either from within, or another evil nation that destroys it.

Flat out false. Jesus purposely choose witnesses for his words and actions. When he was accused by the Jews, he told them to ask those who witnessed him about his actions. The non-believer Jews refused of course, just as non-believers do today.

I'm not sure how this response has anything to do with what you are responding too. And just for clarity here is what I posted:

It's because of the non-essential belief that the "Bible" has to be infallible and inerrant "Word of God" when in fact, Jesus never said anything about the need to believe in a canonized work of letters nor does the Bible even say that of itself.

 

[theHawk]

The gospels have multiple accounts of Christ breaking the law and teaching differently. It's not that hard to see.

The Mosaic Law was fulfilled in Christ, which then made it obsolete, especially after his resurrection.

The relationship between God and the Israelites was described as a marriage, and that Israel was the bride, an unfaithful one at that. Jesus’s relationship with his followers, the Church, is described the same way. But like in marriage, you cannot be married to two people at the same time. When a marriage is ended (by death), the vows are no longer applicable. God entered into a new contract, the New Covenant, with all nations of the earth, thus the Mosaic Law was no longer applicable. The law was not “broken”, thus no contradiction.

 

[theHawk]

A good example is tithing. Tithing in the OT was a temple tax due to the Jews having a theocracy. And their "tax" was more than 10%. Yet, we have modern Christians and preachers that pick and choose OT scriptures to manipulate Christians to give because they will be "Cursed" by God

On that I agree. But I am not counting fly-by-night churches as real churches. There is no 10% rule in Christianity.

 

[theHawk]

No commandment for Christians to believe or read the OT. We are gentiles

I didn’t say it was a “commandment”. I said it is good to read to understand how Jesus fulfills the promise made to Jews.

 

[LibertyKid]

The Mosaic Law was fulfilled in Christ, which then made it obsolete, especially after his resurrection.

Don't disagree. I would add that some of the law redefined and tossed out. Especially the Oral Torah (Sabbath observance, food, washing of hands, etc.,), which was to be as divine and inspired as the written Torah. We see Jesus accused of breaking those oral laws multiple times.

The relationship between God and the Israelites was described as a marriage, and that Israel was the bride, an unfaithful one at that. Jesus’s relationship with his followers, the Church, is described the same way. But like in marriage, you cannot be married to two people at the same time. When a marriage is ended (by death), the vows are no longer applicable. God entered into a new contract, the New Covenant, with all nations of the earth, thus the Mosaic Law was no longer applicable. The law was not “broken”, thus no contradiction.

I don't really disagree here and no need to really split hairs.

On that I agree. But I am not counting fly-by-night churches as real churches. There is no 10% rule in Christianity.

Heretic.... I kid

I didn’t say it was a “commandment”. I said it is good to read to understand how Jesus fulfills the promise made to Jews.

I don't really disagree either. The OT does point to Jesus. Unfortunately there are a lot of aspects of the OT where God doesn't look all that great. From an apologetics stand point, it forces Christianity into this corner, and the primary reason is because some latch on to the idea that "The Bible", from beginning to end, is absolutely infallible. So all those war mongering God depictions vs the God of Love in the NT does create some questionable dichotomies.

If Christianity could accept the idea, that there is an absolute contradiction between the OT and the NT Representation of God, through Jesus, and admit that the Moses and the OT authors may actually have misrepresented the god of the OT and adopt the crucified god on the Cross where love rules, you don't need the Bible as represented by all 66 books. What you need is Faith in Jesus. That's it.

If Christians in the first century could be "Saved" and considered "Christian" without "the Bible", than I don't need some man made idea that this "Bible" is a tenant and a doctrine that one has to believe in.

 

[Red Front]

Christ is the example. We see a completely different view of God through Christ. The gospels have multiple accounts of Christ breaking the law and teaching differently. It's not that hard to see.

Correct to a point. But the problem is when modern westernized Christians try to harmonize, incorrectly OT laws and depictions of God with what it means to be a "Christian" today.

A good example is tithing. Tithing in the OT was a temple tax due to the Jews having a theocracy. And their "tax" was more than 10%. Yet, we have modern Christians and preachers that pick and choose OT scriptures to manipulate Christians to give because they will be "Cursed" by God.

Paul in writing to the church in Corinth advised to give according to what you have decided in your heart. And keep in mind, that Corinth was mostly Gentiles. I'm not a Jew, therefore I'm a gentile. Therefore I give to charity as I choose and feel compelled.
But we are not Jews. In the end, the only thing that matters for Christian, IMO, is your belief in Christ and his teachings. No commandment for Christians to believe or read the OT. We are gentiles.


I'm not sure how this response has anything to do with what you are responding too. And just for clarity here is what I posted:

It's because of the non-essential belief that the "Bible" has to be infallible and inerrant "Word of God" when in fact, Jesus never said anything about the need to believe in a canonized work of letters nor does the Bible even say that of itself.

When did Jesus break the Torah?

 

[Red Front]

The Mosaic Law was fulfilled in Christ, which then made it obsolete, especially after his resurrection.

The relationship between God and the Israelites was described as a marriage, and that Israel was the bride, an unfaithful one at that. Jesus’s relationship with his followers, the Church, is described the same way. But like in marriage, you cannot be married to two people at the same time. When a marriage is ended (by death), the vows are no longer applicable. God entered into a new contract, the New Covenant, with all nations of the earth, thus the Mosaic Law was no longer applicable. The law was not “broken”, thus no contradiction.

Double speak. If YHWH delivers the Torah to Israel and commands his people to keep it forever, through ALL THEIR GENERATIONS, then that's what it means. There are plenty of warnings in the Hebrew Bible against false prophets that might try to get the children of Israel off of Torah and start worshiping false, unknown deities. For the Israelites, the Christian deity is completely unknown and a stranger, hence not to be worshipped from the perspective of YHWH the God of Israel. The Bible is schizophrenic.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Jesus never said anything about the need to believe in a canonized work of letters nor does the Bible even say that of itself

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me

The "scriptures" He refers to are the OT

 

[Red Front]

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me

The "scriptures" He refers to are the OT

The canon of the Hebrew Bible wasn't established until about fifty years after Jesus. It was the Jewish rabbinical council of Jamnia, that established the Jewish canon. Christianity loses its power when it turns itself into another "book" based religion, like Judaism and Islam.

Christians that base their faith on the bible, can easily lose their faith and become atheists. Those who are more mystical, spiritual in their faith, not ascribing "inerrancy" to the Bible, can withstand secular challenges better, theologically and philosophically (they have more "wiggle room"). That form of Christianity is more adaptable, than the typical fundamentalist "bible thumper" brand of Christianity, with its 6000 year old Earth and universal, world flood myth.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

The canon of the Hebrew Bible wasn't established until about fifty years after Jesus. It was the Jewish rabbinical council of Jamnia, that established the Jewish canon. Christianity loses its power when it turns itself into another "book" based religion.

Christians that base their faith on the Bible, can easily lose their faith and become atheists. Those who are more mystical, spiritual in their faith, not ascribing "inerrancy" to the Bible, can withstand secular challenges better, theologically and philosophically (they have more "wiggle room"). That form of Christianity is more adaptable, than the typical fundamentalist "bible thumper" brand of Christianity, with its 6000 year old Earth and universal, world flood myth.

Don't care about your words.

I was correcting "LibertyKid" and his faulty take on the Scriptures
I quoted JESUS on what you call the OT.

Nobody cares about your words

 

[Red Front]

Don't care about your words.
I quoted JESUS on what you call the OT.

Nobody cares about your words

You obviously cared enough to read them and respond to what I wrote. If you were really as indifferent to my words as you claim, you wouldn't read my posts, much less respond to them. You can always click "ignore" on my profile and no longer see what I post. That would make you more sincere in your supposed indifference to my words. Are you also going to respond to these words I'm writing now? Are you reading this? Do you read people's posts who you supposedly consider worthless? Are you into wasting your precious time and energy on worthless posts? Food for thought.

You don't know what Jesus was even referring to with respect to which scriptures he had in mind, when he supposedly spoke those words you cited. The Jewish canon wasn't even established in the 1st century as it is today. More, him saying that the Hebrew Bible, testified of him, doesn't imply that he believed the Hebrew Bible was inerrant, and obviously, it says nothing about the "New Testament" being inerrant. Your bible idol is a mess.

 

[sparky]

~S~

 

[theHawk]

Double speak. If YHWH delivers the Torah to Israel and commands his people to keep it forever, through ALL THEIR GENERATIONS, then that's what it means. There are plenty of warnings in the Hebrew Bible against false prophets that might try to get the children of Israel off of Torah and start worshiping false, unknown deities. For the Israelites, the Christian deity is completely unknown and a stranger, hence not to be worshipped from the perspective of YHWH the God of Israel. The Bible is schizophrenic.

If that’s true then why don’t modern day Jews actually practice Mosaic Law?


Here comes the Talmudian tap dance folks….

 

[theHawk]

The Jewish canon wasn't even established in the 1st century as it is today

Yes, you mean when Judaism was reinvented through the Talmud. When Mosaic Law was abandoned without any authority.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Double speak. If YHWH delivers the Torah to Israel and commands his people to keep it forever, through ALL THEIR GENERATIONS, then that's what it means

That is what it means -- for ANYONE who's God is the God of Israel.

The Ten Commandments are NOT "the mosaic law"

 

[Red Front]

That is what it means -- for ANYONE who's God is the God of Israel.

The Ten Commandments are NOT "the mosaic law"

The Torah is more than just the ten commandments. It's at least 613 laws.

 

[Red Front]

Yes, you mean when Judaism was reinvented through the Talmud. When Mosaic Law was abandoned without any authority.

No, I'm not referring to that. I'm referring to the formation of the Jewish scriptural canon, which includes the Torah, Nevim and Kethuvim, the TaNaK. It wasn't fully defined until the end of the 1st century, about 60-70 years after Jesus in the council of Jamnia.

 

[LibertyKid]

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me

The "scriptures" He refers to are the OT

Yep, we are not in disagreement.
I think we all understand that the OT does point to Jesus. But Christian gentiles are under no obligation to believe that a library of books and letters called "The Holy Bible" are inerrant and infallible. If the first century Christians didn't have a "Bible", I don't have to believe in the library of books and letters either. That's my entire point. How many times do you see a churches "statement of faith" and along side of the the many creeds or dogmas there is this "We believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of god and infallible in every way"....
Why the need to say that? There is no commandment from Jesus, nor does the bible self authenticate itself in this way.

Are the Gospels and the pauline epistles important for Christians? Absolutely. But I don't need to worry about the contradictions of the War mongering god in the OT vs the God of love in the NT. Why, because the Moses and the OT authors incorrectly applied humanistic and cultural ideas to God. They misinterpreted God and his intent and it came out in their writings. Jesus, yes, fulfilled the law, but also correctly demonstrated the true nature of God and is exemplified as the crucified God on the cross, baring all sins of mankind. God is Love. The gospels and the testimony of Christ are tantamount to a Christian's beliefs, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[LibertyKid]

When did Jesus break the Torah?

There are the traditional laws and oral laws. Oral laws were treated as "Scripture" even though they were not initially written down by Moses. For example: Ten commandments state to observe the sabbath day. But what is left out is "How". The oral traditions of "How" were treated as divinely inspired as the written laws.

Thus when Jesus was accused of breaking the Sabbath, he was breaking a Oral Law of the Torah.