Well said Ron Huldai...

[RoccoR]

Challenger, et al,

Yeah, I have to admit, you give a great chuckle sometimes

The credibility of an International Maritime Peacekeeping Unit is fairly low.

Really?

(COMMENT)

These are not (REPEAT) not --- UN Peacekeeping Forces. These have US Navy hull numbers. This could be elements of the US 6th Fleet, maybe a Mediterranean Task Force with an Amphibious Command Ship (LCC) flanked by a couple destroyers. I bet this picture is pretty old. That LCC is probably the USS Mount Whitney (LCC 20), out of Gaeta, Italy. Its sister ship is in the far east. (I have a 50-50 chance of being right since there are only 2 LCCs in the Navy.)

I think the only UN Naval assets/contingent would be the intermittent assignment of Allied Warships during UN Combine Forces Command (CFC) exercises in Korea. But I don't think there are any permanent assignments.

I do not think that NATO Forces like those assigned to the Allied Joint Force Command (JFS) Naples (Lago Patria), have have dedicated peacekeeping forces for the Middle East.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Shusha]

To be honest, I wasn't particularly referring to a maritime peacekeeping unit...

More a land based unit monitoring ports... I believe that would be far more effective than a maritime force...

However, why not both? That would make complete sense!

So, this sounds to me like you want to keep the blockade. You just want it run by international forces, rather than Israel.

Don't ever bitch and whine when there are further attacks from Hamas against Israel will you Daniyel! You are 'happy' to maintain the status quo so, what else would you expect!

Well, this is interesting. So, your belief is that the status quo must be broken and would ease the blockade, knowing that Hamas (with external assistance) would attack Israel, thus giving Israel the moral and legal right to defend itself? And you would find the collateral damage inherent in that scenario acceptable?

The status quo is an unsatisfactory 'solution'. Don't you agree?

Easing the blockade does NOT necessarily open the floodgates for arms into Gaza... Remember both Germany and Japan had very stringent arms embargos imposed after WWII...

It would be very easy to monitor shipments into Gaza, using an international peacekeeping force...

However, to answer your questions about Israel defending itself...

Yes, I do believe that Israel would have the right to defend itself, as it does today, and has done historically. However, unfortunately, the Israeli response is ALWAYS excessive and results in condemnation from the international community... Would it not be better to have the support of the international community in defence of Israel? This way, Israel cannot be blamed for using excessive force and Hamas can be 'dealt with' in the same way as many other regimes in the region have been dealt with.

The status quo, in my opinion, is not an acceptable solution...

A few thoughts, kinda random in order:

The status quo is no solution at all. Its holding the terrorists at bay while permitting Gaza as much self-determination and independence as possible.

Of course, Israel has a right to defend itself. That is a given. Why would a sovereign nation, any nation, turn over its self-defense to an international force? What makes you think an international force would be more effective? How would you measure the effectiveness of the international force, as compared to Israeli security? Or are you saying that an international force is likely to be less effective, but that lack of effectiveness is tolerable, as it would also be less aggressive? Why should Israel accept a self-defense scheme for its civilians and its sovereignty if it increases the "acceptable" losses on its side or increases the belligerence on the other?

You say that Israel is always excessive in its use of force in self-defense. How do you measure this? How do you know that it is excessive? (I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here -- I'm just asking for clarification of what you think "excessive" force is.)

It sounds to me like you might actually support a blockade, but you think it should be an international force and not Israel which controls it.

Finally, it seems to me that you discount or minimize the hostility of the Gazan government and yes, the Gazan people toward Israel. I agree wholeheartedly with Rocco that the blockade should not be eased until some steps toward peace are taken by Hamas and the Gazan people. Given that the blockade is a security measure, why should security measures be removed in the absence of progress toward peace? As an analogy, why should a prisoner be moved from maximum security to a probation in the absence of improvements in behaviour?

 

[P F Tinmore]

To be honest, I wasn't particularly referring to a maritime peacekeeping unit...

More a land based unit monitoring ports... I believe that would be far more effective than a maritime force...

However, why not both? That would make complete sense!

So, this sounds to me like you want to keep the blockade. You just want it run by international forces, rather than Israel.

Don't ever bitch and whine when there are further attacks from Hamas against Israel will you Daniyel! You are 'happy' to maintain the status quo so, what else would you expect!

Well, this is interesting. So, your belief is that the status quo must be broken and would ease the blockade, knowing that Hamas (with external assistance) would attack Israel, thus giving Israel the moral and legal right to defend itself? And you would find the collateral damage inherent in that scenario acceptable?

The status quo is an unsatisfactory 'solution'. Don't you agree?

Easing the blockade does NOT necessarily open the floodgates for arms into Gaza... Remember both Germany and Japan had very stringent arms embargos imposed after WWII...

It would be very easy to monitor shipments into Gaza, using an international peacekeeping force...

However, to answer your questions about Israel defending itself...

Yes, I do believe that Israel would have the right to defend itself, as it does today, and has done historically. However, unfortunately, the Israeli response is ALWAYS excessive and results in condemnation from the international community... Would it not be better to have the support of the international community in defence of Israel? This way, Israel cannot be blamed for using excessive force and Hamas can be 'dealt with' in the same way as many other regimes in the region have been dealt with.

The status quo, in my opinion, is not an acceptable solution...

A few thoughts, kinda random in order:

The status quo is no solution at all. Its holding the terrorists at bay while permitting Gaza as much self-determination and independence as possible.

Of course, Israel has a right to defend itself. That is a given. Why would a sovereign nation, any nation, turn over its self-defense to an international force? What makes you think an international force would be more effective? How would you measure the effectiveness of the international force, as compared to Israeli security? Or are you saying that an international force is likely to be less effective, but that lack of effectiveness is tolerable, as it would also be less aggressive? Why should Israel accept a self-defense scheme for its civilians and its sovereignty if it increases the "acceptable" losses on its side or increases the belligerence on the other?

You say that Israel is always excessive in its use of force in self-defense. How do you measure this? How do you know that it is excessive? (I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here -- I'm just asking for clarification of what you think "excessive" force is.)

It sounds to me like you might actually support a blockade, but you think it should be an international force and not Israel which controls it.

Finally, it seems to me that you discount or minimize the hostility of the Gazan government and yes, the Gazan people toward Israel. I agree wholeheartedly with Rocco that the blockade should not be eased until some steps toward peace are taken by Hamas and the Gazan people. Given that the blockade is a security measure, why should security measures be removed in the absence of progress toward peace? As an analogy, why should a prisoner be moved from maximum security to a probation in the absence of improvements in behaviour?

Of course, Israel has a right to defend itself. That is a given.​

Link?

 

[Shusha]

Of course, Israel has a right to defend itself. That is a given.​

​

Link?

You DON'T think sovereign nations have a right to defend their citizens against attacks? Or their sovereignty against attacks?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Of course, Israel has a right to defend itself. That is a given.​

​

Link?

You DON'T think sovereign nations have a right to defend their citizens against attacks? Or their sovereignty against attacks?

Duck.

 

[Phoenall]

Humanity, et al,

The credibility of an International Maritime Peacekeeping Unit is fairly low.

When the UN Emergency Force (UNEF) was confronted by the Egyptian Military and ordered to withdraw and allow the advance element of 100,000 troops to stage on the border with Israel, the UNEF folded.
​

There is no reliability that such peacekeeping could possibly face even a small formation of six civilian ships like that of the "Gaza Freedom Flotilla," and conduct an interdiction. All the flotilla would do is continue on, safe in the knowledge that the UNEF would not use force.

The status quo may be all that is reasonably available.

The status quo is an unsatisfactory 'solution'. Don't you agree?

Easing the blockade does NOT necessarily open the floodgates for arms into Gaza... Remember both Germany and Japan had very stringent arms embargos imposed after WWII...

It would be very easy to monitor shipments into Gaza, using an international peacekeeping force...

However, to answer your questions about Israel defending itself...

Yes, I do believe that Israel would have the right to defend itself, as it does today, and has done historically. However, unfortunately, the Israeli response is ALWAYS excessive and results in condemnation from the international community... Would it not be better to have the support of the international community in defence of Israel? This way, Israel cannot be blamed for using excessive force and Hamas can be 'dealt with' in the same way as many other regimes in the region have been dealt with.

The status quo, in my opinion, is not an acceptable solution...

(COMMENT)

Right now, on the Northern Border Lebanon, Hezbollah has illicit weapons and drug traffic as a huge part of the business plan:

100 Hezbollah sleeper cells in Latin America linked to drug trafficking, Report

“”Latin American media reports confirmed that there are more than 100 sleeper cells affiliated with the Lebanese Hezbollah in Latin America and that they are spreading in the Triple Frontier; the tri-border between Argentina, Brazil and Paraguay and in other areas on the Venezuelan-Columbian border where drug trafficking thrives. The Triple Frontier is considered one of the most dangerous areas in the world due to the drug trafficking and the money laundering activities that take place there.””
​

Easing the blockade does NOT necessarily open the floodgates for arms into Gaza... Remember both Germany and Japan had very stringent arms embargos imposed after WWII...

(COMMENT)

Relaxing the blockade can only come after the Hostile Arab Palestinians demonstrates a sustained period of peace. The Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) is a nationalist-Islamist spinoff from the Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, and will exploit any opportunity that arises. Similarly, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) has adopted such a strategy.

Jihad is the way forward in HAMAS terms.

Most Respectfully,

R

Relaxing the blockade can only come after the Hostile Arab Palestinians demonstrates a sustained period of peace.​

Why should the Palestinians (the victims of Israel's aggression) lay down their arms in hopes that one day the liars would eventually follow suit?

because they are the ones that started the violence way back in 1921, so they are the ones that need to bring the war to an end. Don't forget tinny the history books all say that the Palestinians under the Mufti started the violence against the Jews that led to the formation of the IDF groups Irgun and Stern, these were mobile units that went to the scene of Palestinian attacks to defend the Jewish people from harm.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Humanity, et al,

The credibility of an International Maritime Peacekeeping Unit is fairly low.

When the UN Emergency Force (UNEF) was confronted by the Egyptian Military and ordered to withdraw and allow the advance element of 100,000 troops to stage on the border with Israel, the UNEF folded.
​

There is no reliability that such peacekeeping could possibly face even a small formation of six civilian ships like that of the "Gaza Freedom Flotilla," and conduct an interdiction. All the flotilla would do is continue on, safe in the knowledge that the UNEF would not use force.

The status quo may be all that is reasonably available.

The status quo is an unsatisfactory 'solution'. Don't you agree?

Easing the blockade does NOT necessarily open the floodgates for arms into Gaza... Remember both Germany and Japan had very stringent arms embargos imposed after WWII...

It would be very easy to monitor shipments into Gaza, using an international peacekeeping force...

However, to answer your questions about Israel defending itself...

Yes, I do believe that Israel would have the right to defend itself, as it does today, and has done historically. However, unfortunately, the Israeli response is ALWAYS excessive and results in condemnation from the international community... Would it not be better to have the support of the international community in defence of Israel? This way, Israel cannot be blamed for using excessive force and Hamas can be 'dealt with' in the same way as many other regimes in the region have been dealt with.

The status quo, in my opinion, is not an acceptable solution...

(COMMENT)

Right now, on the Northern Border Lebanon, Hezbollah has illicit weapons and drug traffic as a huge part of the business plan:

100 Hezbollah sleeper cells in Latin America linked to drug trafficking, Report

“”Latin American media reports confirmed that there are more than 100 sleeper cells affiliated with the Lebanese Hezbollah in Latin America and that they are spreading in the Triple Frontier; the tri-border between Argentina, Brazil and Paraguay and in other areas on the Venezuelan-Columbian border where drug trafficking thrives. The Triple Frontier is considered one of the most dangerous areas in the world due to the drug trafficking and the money laundering activities that take place there.””
​

Easing the blockade does NOT necessarily open the floodgates for arms into Gaza... Remember both Germany and Japan had very stringent arms embargos imposed after WWII...

(COMMENT)

Relaxing the blockade can only come after the Hostile Arab Palestinians demonstrates a sustained period of peace. The Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) is a nationalist-Islamist spinoff from the Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, and will exploit any opportunity that arises. Similarly, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) has adopted such a strategy.

Jihad is the way forward in HAMAS terms.

Most Respectfully,

R

Relaxing the blockade can only come after the Hostile Arab Palestinians demonstrates a sustained period of peace.​

Why should the Palestinians (the victims of Israel's aggression) lay down their arms in hopes that one day the liars would eventually follow suit?

because they are the ones that started the violence way back in 1921, so they are the ones that need to bring the war to an end. Don't forget tinny the history books all say that the Palestinians under the Mufti started the violence against the Jews that led to the formation of the IDF groups Irgun and Stern, these were mobile units that went to the scene of Palestinian attacks to defend the Jewish people from harm.

Not!

You are reading Israel's bullshit version.

 

[Phoenall]

Of course, Israel has a right to defend itself. That is a given.​

​

Link?

You DON'T think sovereign nations have a right to defend their citizens against attacks? Or their sovereignty against attacks?

Duck.

NO no duck, no deflection, no derailment just fact that under the terms of the UN charter Israel is allowed to defend against illegal attacks from hamas and fatah and no manipulation of the truth will change that.

 

[Phoenall]

Humanity, et al,

The credibility of an International Maritime Peacekeeping Unit is fairly low.

When the UN Emergency Force (UNEF) was confronted by the Egyptian Military and ordered to withdraw and allow the advance element of 100,000 troops to stage on the border with Israel, the UNEF folded.
​

There is no reliability that such peacekeeping could possibly face even a small formation of six civilian ships like that of the "Gaza Freedom Flotilla," and conduct an interdiction. All the flotilla would do is continue on, safe in the knowledge that the UNEF would not use force.

The status quo may be all that is reasonably available.

The status quo is an unsatisfactory 'solution'. Don't you agree?

Easing the blockade does NOT necessarily open the floodgates for arms into Gaza... Remember both Germany and Japan had very stringent arms embargos imposed after WWII...

It would be very easy to monitor shipments into Gaza, using an international peacekeeping force...

However, to answer your questions about Israel defending itself...

Yes, I do believe that Israel would have the right to defend itself, as it does today, and has done historically. However, unfortunately, the Israeli response is ALWAYS excessive and results in condemnation from the international community... Would it not be better to have the support of the international community in defence of Israel? This way, Israel cannot be blamed for using excessive force and Hamas can be 'dealt with' in the same way as many other regimes in the region have been dealt with.

The status quo, in my opinion, is not an acceptable solution...

(COMMENT)

Right now, on the Northern Border Lebanon, Hezbollah has illicit weapons and drug traffic as a huge part of the business plan:

100 Hezbollah sleeper cells in Latin America linked to drug trafficking, Report

“”Latin American media reports confirmed that there are more than 100 sleeper cells affiliated with the Lebanese Hezbollah in Latin America and that they are spreading in the Triple Frontier; the tri-border between Argentina, Brazil and Paraguay and in other areas on the Venezuelan-Columbian border where drug trafficking thrives. The Triple Frontier is considered one of the most dangerous areas in the world due to the drug trafficking and the money laundering activities that take place there.””
​

Easing the blockade does NOT necessarily open the floodgates for arms into Gaza... Remember both Germany and Japan had very stringent arms embargos imposed after WWII...

(COMMENT)

Relaxing the blockade can only come after the Hostile Arab Palestinians demonstrates a sustained period of peace. The Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) is a nationalist-Islamist spinoff from the Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, and will exploit any opportunity that arises. Similarly, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) has adopted such a strategy.

Jihad is the way forward in HAMAS terms.

Most Respectfully,

R

Relaxing the blockade can only come after the Hostile Arab Palestinians demonstrates a sustained period of peace.​

Why should the Palestinians (the victims of Israel's aggression) lay down their arms in hopes that one day the liars would eventually follow suit?

because they are the ones that started the violence way back in 1921, so they are the ones that need to bring the war to an end. Don't forget tinny the history books all say that the Palestinians under the Mufti started the violence against the Jews that led to the formation of the IDF groups Irgun and Stern, these were mobile units that went to the scene of Palestinian attacks to defend the Jewish people from harm.

Not!

You are reading Israel's bullshit version.

No I am reading the currently accepted version of events that is born out by Islamic records and British records.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Of course, Israel has a right to defend itself. That is a given.​

​

Link?

You DON'T think sovereign nations have a right to defend their citizens against attacks? Or their sovereignty against attacks?

Duck.

NO no duck, no deflection, no derailment just fact that under the terms of the UN charter Israel is allowed to defend against illegal attacks from hamas and fatah and no manipulation of the truth will change that.

Where does it say that Israel has the right to defend itself?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Humanity, et al,

The credibility of an International Maritime Peacekeeping Unit is fairly low.

When the UN Emergency Force (UNEF) was confronted by the Egyptian Military and ordered to withdraw and allow the advance element of 100,000 troops to stage on the border with Israel, the UNEF folded.
​

There is no reliability that such peacekeeping could possibly face even a small formation of six civilian ships like that of the "Gaza Freedom Flotilla," and conduct an interdiction. All the flotilla would do is continue on, safe in the knowledge that the UNEF would not use force.

The status quo may be all that is reasonably available.

The status quo is an unsatisfactory 'solution'. Don't you agree?

Easing the blockade does NOT necessarily open the floodgates for arms into Gaza... Remember both Germany and Japan had very stringent arms embargos imposed after WWII...

It would be very easy to monitor shipments into Gaza, using an international peacekeeping force...

However, to answer your questions about Israel defending itself...

Yes, I do believe that Israel would have the right to defend itself, as it does today, and has done historically. However, unfortunately, the Israeli response is ALWAYS excessive and results in condemnation from the international community... Would it not be better to have the support of the international community in defence of Israel? This way, Israel cannot be blamed for using excessive force and Hamas can be 'dealt with' in the same way as many other regimes in the region have been dealt with.

The status quo, in my opinion, is not an acceptable solution...

(COMMENT)

Right now, on the Northern Border Lebanon, Hezbollah has illicit weapons and drug traffic as a huge part of the business plan:

100 Hezbollah sleeper cells in Latin America linked to drug trafficking, Report

“”Latin American media reports confirmed that there are more than 100 sleeper cells affiliated with the Lebanese Hezbollah in Latin America and that they are spreading in the Triple Frontier; the tri-border between Argentina, Brazil and Paraguay and in other areas on the Venezuelan-Columbian border where drug trafficking thrives. The Triple Frontier is considered one of the most dangerous areas in the world due to the drug trafficking and the money laundering activities that take place there.””
​

Easing the blockade does NOT necessarily open the floodgates for arms into Gaza... Remember both Germany and Japan had very stringent arms embargos imposed after WWII...

(COMMENT)

Relaxing the blockade can only come after the Hostile Arab Palestinians demonstrates a sustained period of peace. The Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) is a nationalist-Islamist spinoff from the Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, and will exploit any opportunity that arises. Similarly, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) has adopted such a strategy.

Jihad is the way forward in HAMAS terms.

Most Respectfully,

R

Relaxing the blockade can only come after the Hostile Arab Palestinians demonstrates a sustained period of peace.​

Why should the Palestinians (the victims of Israel's aggression) lay down their arms in hopes that one day the liars would eventually follow suit?

because they are the ones that started the violence way back in 1921, so they are the ones that need to bring the war to an end. Don't forget tinny the history books all say that the Palestinians under the Mufti started the violence against the Jews that led to the formation of the IDF groups Irgun and Stern, these were mobile units that went to the scene of Palestinian attacks to defend the Jewish people from harm.

Not!

You are reading Israel's bullshit version.

No I am reading the currently accepted version of events that is born out by Islamic records and British records.

Examples?

 

[Coyote]

"...One can definitely say this... It's not boring here. Ohh, it's not. But not only it isn't boring. It's irritating. It's irritating to wake up in the morning after such brutal murder of innocent people sitting in a restaurant, and to hear AGAIN... all those 'wise' world spokesmen, on television and radio, who explain that this happens to us... because of us.

Yeah. It's our fault.

4 were killed in central Tel Aviv, but the culprits... are us.

I really need a good doctor to diagnose this illness, which makes us believe that no matter what our enemies do... it's always our fault.

Have you ever heard of innocent murder victims who are culprits of their own blood being spilled?

Only here this thinking is possible.

Furthermore, The European representative said that there's a direct line between the Europe terror attacks and our "occupation" and "oppression" here.

In England, an officer is slaughtered for being a disbeliever, the Israeli occupation is at fault... In Paris, dozens are butchered in a concert hall for being infidels, in that, also, the Israeli occupation is at fault... and the world is quiet.

And why it is our fault? Because there's no negotiation. Why are we the responsible ones? because the Arabs have no 'political horizon'... Why is Israel to blame? because the Arab have no hope.

Why we're the guilty ones? because of the occupation.

Simple.

The occupation.

So they're desperate and sad. And common sense says that, when you're desperate and sad and with no hope for the future, you go on a killing spree at a crowded restaurant. That's it. What's more simple than that?

We occupy them, we took their sky above, be blockade them... what is there for them to do? Oh, the occupation! the root of all evil!

Because if there was NO occupation (sarcastic laugh), if that was not an issue, can you imagine the heaven we would have had here? Paradise, Monte Carlo, Switzerland! We would have had skiing trips on Be'er Sheva's mountains. We would have had the Sahara race on mount Hermon.

What a wonderful world we would have had, if only there was no occupation.

Like the one we used to have here before the occupation! In times the Arabs had open skies, no blockade, open horizon to create not only one state, but multiple states, who would have spread all over Judea, Samaria, Hebron and Gaza.

It was all theirs, in case you forgot. Oy, they had beautiful horizons back then.

And even back then, before said occupation, years 1948-1950, it was so wonderful here. When this state, who was just born out of fire and had to deal with the risk of being destroyed and attack constantly, They used to, then, in case you don't remember, write down the names of Jewish drivers passing by the roads of Israel, in case they have to identify their bodies once their vehicles are attacked and set on fire.

Those years were of high risk to the state which just fought for independence, which had to deal with thousands of refugees who escaped a previous genocide in Europe, a genocide the Arabs wished to continue here, in this very homeland.

They wanted back then, before the "occupation", to put a tragic final to the Jewish dream, and bring forth the demise of their new independent state.

Out of those thousand cases of pre-occupation, let us recall just a few. On February 1951, an 8 year old Israeli girl was raped and murdered, in her house at Katamon neighborhood in Jerusalem. December 31st, 1952, Palestinians raped and murdered a 18 year old girl, and hid her body in a cave. January 1st, 1952, seven armed Palestinians attacked and killed a 19 year old girl in 'Beit Israel' neighborhood in Jerusalem...

Year 1953, before we occupied any of Judea, Samaria, or Gaza, One Israeli man was murdered and three others injured in a shooting incident in southern Jerusalem. June 9th, a village near Lod was attacked by Paleastinians, who used mortars and live ammunition on the innocent residents, killing one and injuring many others.

That same night, a group of terrorists attacked a house in Hadera, and another set a house on fire in Ayalon town.

June 11th, 1953, terrorists attacked a young couple in Hess village, murdering them both.

All of that was before the occupation, they had hopes and horizons, so why... Why on June 3rd, 1953, Palestinians invaded the Katamon neighborhood, the beating heart of Jerusalem, and opened fire at passersby? why on October 13th, 1953, Palestinians murdered a mother and two of her children? A 3 year old girl and a 1 year old boy, who were murdered in their sleep.

Why on March 17th, a group of terrorists ambushed a civilian buss driving from Eilat to Tel Aviv, shot at it from close range, entered the bus, shot all of the passengers, 11 people were killed- men, women, children? why?

April 11th, 1956, a Palestinian group invaded the village of ultra-orthodox Jews of Chabad, they attacked the agricultural school with mortar shells and live-fire, killing 4 children and a teacher. The children's blood slpashed to stain their Torah and prayer books.

That same day and same place, they also attacked a synagogue filled with children. 5 children and youth worker were murdered.

During August, 1956, at least 10 Jews were brutally murdered by Palestinian terrorists.

And it continues. The list is long and tiring, and it's all before the occupation, before 1967, the "occupation" doesn't even exist in future plans, so why?

For years, the terror organization of PLO, Ashaf, Fada'iyun tried to bring an end to the Jewish state, to spill it's blood through shots, mortar firing, launchings, bombings, damaging and killing.

It didn't begin in 1967. It did not begin in 1948, either.

Aaron Hershfeld, a Yeshiva student, was murdered on January, 1873, by a Palestinian terrorist group.

So this is the answer to what happened in Tel Aviv. They kill us they have no furur dreams. But why don't we listen to their voices? They tell us clearly- their dreams is to see us gone! with, or without occupation!"

-Yehoram Ga'on, June 9th, 2016

That's a real shame Lipush...

Your post is bordering on hysterical rather than dealing with the subject of the thread...

I had hoped that you may have made sensible comment rather than taking the 'Zionist victimhood' route!

Or simply an attempt to derail the thread as having a prominent political Israeli stating that the occupation by Israel is a cause for Palestinian terrorism does NOT fit in with the Zionist mantra!

The Palestinians say day and night long they want to destroy Israel...

There were THOUSANDS of cases of terrorism before the occupation..

Yes, my post is "hysterical".

I'm curious on how your mind works?


Buttom line is- it's not because of any occupation. It never was. If it was the pure reason, you wouldn't have heard of our enemies attacking and killing Jews abroad, or killing us before the "occupation"

How my mind works?

Simple...

End the occupation...

End the blockade on Gaza...

'Free' the Palestinians...

Once that happens... IF Palestinian aggression continues then I support Israel to blow the shit out of ANY terrorist that chooses to attack it!

It's THAT simple... That's how MY mind works!

Please, PLEASE, don't tell me that it is "necessary" to maintain the occupation and blockade for "security" reasons...

Israel has MORE than enough firepower to destroy ANYTHING that Hamas/PA can throw at it! That has been proven... Israel also has the aggression to do so... That has also been proven!

Let me ask you... How long do you think it would take for Israel to, for example, overthrow Hamas, destroy Gaza and continue its "Greater Israel" plans?

I have an idea of how long that would take, but I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that!

I Think you are wrong from the very essence of that thought.
One must never submit or compromise to violence and extortions, it is a very slippery slop to self destruction.

A little off topic, but you have a interesting signature picture - what does it symbolize?

 

[RoccoR]

Phoenall,, et al,

As a young man growing-up, I learned (as we all did) that in a street fight --- it doesn't matter who started fight, who took the first swing, what side of the tracks you're on, or who was right or wrong. If you're in a scrap with chains and knives, all that matters is you come away with as few injuries as possible; not leaving a trail of blood; send them to the hospital.

Humanity, et al,

The credibility of an International Maritime Peacekeeping Unit is fairly low.

When the UN Emergency Force (UNEF) was confronted by the Egyptian Military and ordered to withdraw and allow the advance element of 100,000 troops to stage on the border with Israel, the UNEF folded.
​

There is no reliability that such peacekeeping could possibly face even a small formation of six civilian ships like that of the "Gaza Freedom Flotilla," and conduct an interdiction. All the flotilla would do is continue on, safe in the knowledge that the UNEF would not use force.

The status quo may be all that is reasonably available.

The status quo is an unsatisfactory 'solution'. Don't you agree?

Easing the blockade does NOT necessarily open the floodgates for arms into Gaza... Remember both Germany and Japan had very stringent arms embargos imposed after WWII...

It would be very easy to monitor shipments into Gaza, using an international peacekeeping force...

However, to answer your questions about Israel defending itself...

Yes, I do believe that Israel would have the right to defend itself, as it does today, and has done historically. However, unfortunately, the Israeli response is ALWAYS excessive and results in condemnation from the international community... Would it not be better to have the support of the international community in defence of Israel? This way, Israel cannot be blamed for using excessive force and Hamas can be 'dealt with' in the same way as many other regimes in the region have been dealt with.

The status quo, in my opinion, is not an acceptable solution...

(COMMENT)

Right now, on the Northern Border Lebanon, Hezbollah has illicit weapons and drug traffic as a huge part of the business plan:

100 Hezbollah sleeper cells in Latin America linked to drug trafficking, Report

“”Latin American media reports confirmed that there are more than 100 sleeper cells affiliated with the Lebanese Hezbollah in Latin America and that they are spreading in the Triple Frontier; the tri-border between Argentina, Brazil and Paraguay and in other areas on the Venezuelan-Columbian border where drug trafficking thrives. The Triple Frontier is considered one of the most dangerous areas in the world due to the drug trafficking and the money laundering activities that take place there.””
​

Easing the blockade does NOT necessarily open the floodgates for arms into Gaza... Remember both Germany and Japan had very stringent arms embargos imposed after WWII...

(COMMENT)

Relaxing the blockade can only come after the Hostile Arab Palestinians demonstrates a sustained period of peace. The Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) is a nationalist-Islamist spinoff from the Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, and will exploit any opportunity that arises. Similarly, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) has adopted such a strategy.

Jihad is the way forward in HAMAS terms.

Relaxing the blockade can only come after the Hostile Arab Palestinians demonstrates a sustained period of peace.

Why should the Palestinians (the victims of Israel's aggression) lay down their arms in hopes that one day the liars would eventually follow suit?

because they are the ones that started the violence way back in 1921, so they are the ones that need to bring the war to an end. Don't forget tinny the history books all say that the Palestinians under the Mufti started the violence against the Jews that led to the formation of the IDF groups Irgun and Stern, these were mobile units that went to the scene of Palestinian attacks to defend the Jewish people from harm.

Not!
You are reading Israel's bullshit version.

No I am reading the currently accepted version of events that is born out by Islamic records and British records.

(COMMENT)

This --- propaganda excuse that you use --- is simply that, an excuse; it doesn't mean a thing. In a street fight, once the fur starts flying, the propaganda means nothing --- unless you plan on talking them to death. All that matters is who walks away and who is laying down and bleeding on the pavement. You can't use right or wrong, justification, or sympathy as a bandage, tourniquet, or sutures. Whining and crying about your victimization does not substitute for economic, commercial, developmental progress.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Chapter VII - Article 51, UN Charter: Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations.

Of course, Israel has a right to defend itself. That is a given.​

Link?

You DON'T think sovereign nations have a right to defend their citizens against attacks? Or their sovereignty against attacks?

Duck.

NO no duck, no deflection, no derailment just fact that under the terms of the UN charter Israel is allowed to defend against illegal attacks from hamas and fatah and no manipulation of the truth will change that.

Where does it say that Israel has the right to defend itself?

(COMMENT)

Actually, Israel does not need to have the right of self-defense granted. There is NO PROHIBITION against self-defense.

Israel has the unconditional right to raise such a defense as may protect the sovereignty and integrity of the nation; as well as, the citizenry of the state, as a responsibility of the state.

Israel may mount such a defense as may protect against the Hostile Arab Palestinians that follows jihad.

Pursuant to Article 68, Fourth Geneva Convention, Israel defense against Palestinian that:

• Solely intended to harm the Occupying Power,
• Seriously damaged the property of the occupying forces or administration or the installations,
• Were guilty of espionage, of serious acts of sabotage against the military installations of the Occupying Power,
• Intentional committed offenses which have caused the death of one or more persons,
​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Chapter VII - Article 51, UN Charter: Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations.

Link?

You DON'T think sovereign nations have a right to defend their citizens against attacks? Or their sovereignty against attacks?

Duck.

NO no duck, no deflection, no derailment just fact that under the terms of the UN charter Israel is allowed to defend against illegal attacks from hamas and fatah and no manipulation of the truth will change that.

Where does it say that Israel has the right to defend itself?

(COMMENT)

Actually, Israel does not need to have the right of self-defense granted. There is NO PROHIBITION against self-defense.

Israel has the unconditional right to raise such a defense as may protect the sovereignty and integrity of the nation; as well as, the citizenry of the state, as a responsibility of the state.

Israel may mount such a defense as may protect against the Hostile Arab Palestinians that follows jihad.

Pursuant to Article 68, Fourth Geneva Convention, Israel defense against Palestinian that:

• Solely intended to harm the Occupying Power,
• Seriously damaged the property of the occupying forces or administration or the installations,
• Were guilty of espionage, of serious acts of sabotage against the military installations of the Occupying Power,
• Intentional committed offenses which have caused the death of one or more persons,
​

Most Respectfully,
R

There is NO PROHIBITION against self-defense.​

Well, that is not true. Nobody has the right to violate the rights of others. What right do you claim for Israel that does not violate the rights of the Palestinians?

 

[Humanity]

Let's try something else, if you or anyone else here seems to be able to suggest a solution kindly share it with us.

Strangely enough... I did suggest a solution...

All you offered was the 'victimhood' card and the status quo...

Sorry Daniyel, I cannot accept the status quo as a solution!

So, how about YOU offer up a sensible, non violent, non status quo solution?

I would be very interested to read that!

 

[Humanity]

So, this sounds to me like you want to keep the blockade. You just want it run by international forces, rather than Israel.

Nope...

Not a blockade as is currently in force...

I want Gaza to have the freedom to grow...

What I don't want is Gaza to have the ability to grow its military arsenal, just its ability to grow socially...

I don't think you would disagree with that...

A single COUNTRY, a neighbouring country, accused of many atrocities against its neighbour, is probably, in my opinion, not best placed to monitor their neighbour!

Surely you can see the advantages of the accused 'oppressor' not having to 'oppress' anymore?

Hand responsibility over to "international forces"... Israel then becomes the 'innocent' party...

It's that simple... Isn't it?

 

[Humanity]

"...One can definitely say this... It's not boring here. Ohh, it's not. But not only it isn't boring. It's irritating. It's irritating to wake up in the morning after such brutal murder of innocent people sitting in a restaurant, and to hear AGAIN... all those 'wise' world spokesmen, on television and radio, who explain that this happens to us... because of us.

Yeah. It's our fault.

4 were killed in central Tel Aviv, but the culprits... are us.

I really need a good doctor to diagnose this illness, which makes us believe that no matter what our enemies do... it's always our fault.

Have you ever heard of innocent murder victims who are culprits of their own blood being spilled?

Only here this thinking is possible.

Furthermore, The European representative said that there's a direct line between the Europe terror attacks and our "occupation" and "oppression" here.

In England, an officer is slaughtered for being a disbeliever, the Israeli occupation is at fault... In Paris, dozens are butchered in a concert hall for being infidels, in that, also, the Israeli occupation is at fault... and the world is quiet.

And why it is our fault? Because there's no negotiation. Why are we the responsible ones? because the Arabs have no 'political horizon'... Why is Israel to blame? because the Arab have no hope.

Why we're the guilty ones? because of the occupation.

Simple.

The occupation.

So they're desperate and sad. And common sense says that, when you're desperate and sad and with no hope for the future, you go on a killing spree at a crowded restaurant. That's it. What's more simple than that?

We occupy them, we took their sky above, be blockade them... what is there for them to do? Oh, the occupation! the root of all evil!

Because if there was NO occupation (sarcastic laugh), if that was not an issue, can you imagine the heaven we would have had here? Paradise, Monte Carlo, Switzerland! We would have had skiing trips on Be'er Sheva's mountains. We would have had the Sahara race on mount Hermon.

What a wonderful world we would have had, if only there was no occupation.

Like the one we used to have here before the occupation! In times the Arabs had open skies, no blockade, open horizon to create not only one state, but multiple states, who would have spread all over Judea, Samaria, Hebron and Gaza.

It was all theirs, in case you forgot. Oy, they had beautiful horizons back then.

And even back then, before said occupation, years 1948-1950, it was so wonderful here. When this state, who was just born out of fire and had to deal with the risk of being destroyed and attack constantly, They used to, then, in case you don't remember, write down the names of Jewish drivers passing by the roads of Israel, in case they have to identify their bodies once their vehicles are attacked and set on fire.

Those years were of high risk to the state which just fought for independence, which had to deal with thousands of refugees who escaped a previous genocide in Europe, a genocide the Arabs wished to continue here, in this very homeland.

They wanted back then, before the "occupation", to put a tragic final to the Jewish dream, and bring forth the demise of their new independent state.

Out of those thousand cases of pre-occupation, let us recall just a few. On February 1951, an 8 year old Israeli girl was raped and murdered, in her house at Katamon neighborhood in Jerusalem. December 31st, 1952, Palestinians raped and murdered a 18 year old girl, and hid her body in a cave. January 1st, 1952, seven armed Palestinians attacked and killed a 19 year old girl in 'Beit Israel' neighborhood in Jerusalem...

Year 1953, before we occupied any of Judea, Samaria, or Gaza, One Israeli man was murdered and three others injured in a shooting incident in southern Jerusalem. June 9th, a village near Lod was attacked by Paleastinians, who used mortars and live ammunition on the innocent residents, killing one and injuring many others.

That same night, a group of terrorists attacked a house in Hadera, and another set a house on fire in Ayalon town.

June 11th, 1953, terrorists attacked a young couple in Hess village, murdering them both.

All of that was before the occupation, they had hopes and horizons, so why... Why on June 3rd, 1953, Palestinians invaded the Katamon neighborhood, the beating heart of Jerusalem, and opened fire at passersby? why on October 13th, 1953, Palestinians murdered a mother and two of her children? A 3 year old girl and a 1 year old boy, who were murdered in their sleep.

Why on March 17th, a group of terrorists ambushed a civilian buss driving from Eilat to Tel Aviv, shot at it from close range, entered the bus, shot all of the passengers, 11 people were killed- men, women, children? why?

April 11th, 1956, a Palestinian group invaded the village of ultra-orthodox Jews of Chabad, they attacked the agricultural school with mortar shells and live-fire, killing 4 children and a teacher. The children's blood slpashed to stain their Torah and prayer books.

That same day and same place, they also attacked a synagogue filled with children. 5 children and youth worker were murdered.

During August, 1956, at least 10 Jews were brutally murdered by Palestinian terrorists.

And it continues. The list is long and tiring, and it's all before the occupation, before 1967, the "occupation" doesn't even exist in future plans, so why?

For years, the terror organization of PLO, Ashaf, Fada'iyun tried to bring an end to the Jewish state, to spill it's blood through shots, mortar firing, launchings, bombings, damaging and killing.

It didn't begin in 1967. It did not begin in 1948, either.

Aaron Hershfeld, a Yeshiva student, was murdered on January, 1873, by a Palestinian terrorist group.

So this is the answer to what happened in Tel Aviv. They kill us they have no furur dreams. But why don't we listen to their voices? They tell us clearly- their dreams is to see us gone! with, or without occupation!"

-Yehoram Ga'on, June 9th, 2016

That's a real shame Lipush...

Your post is bordering on hysterical rather than dealing with the subject of the thread...

I had hoped that you may have made sensible comment rather than taking the 'Zionist victimhood' route!

Or simply an attempt to derail the thread as having a prominent political Israeli stating that the occupation by Israel is a cause for Palestinian terrorism does NOT fit in with the Zionist mantra!

The Palestinians say day and night long they want to destroy Israel...

There were THOUSANDS of cases of terrorism before the occupation..

Yes, my post is "hysterical".

I'm curious on how your mind works?


Buttom line is- it's not because of any occupation. It never was. If it was the pure reason, you wouldn't have heard of our enemies attacking and killing Jews abroad, or killing us before the "occupation"

How my mind works?

Simple...

End the occupation...

End the blockade on Gaza...

'Free' the Palestinians...

Once that happens... IF Palestinian aggression continues then I support Israel to blow the shit out of ANY terrorist that chooses to attack it!

It's THAT simple... That's how MY mind works!

Please, PLEASE, don't tell me that it is "necessary" to maintain the occupation and blockade for "security" reasons...

Israel has MORE than enough firepower to destroy ANYTHING that Hamas/PA can throw at it! That has been proven... Israel also has the aggression to do so... That has also been proven!

Let me ask you... How long do you think it would take for Israel to, for example, overthrow Hamas, destroy Gaza and continue its "Greater Israel" plans?

I have an idea of how long that would take, but I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that!

I Think you are wrong from the very essence of that thought.
One must never submit or compromise to violence and extortions, it is a very slippery slop to self destruction.

A little off topic, but you have a interesting signature picture - what does it symbolize?

To be fair, this is ALL gone way off topic...

However, the debates/comments have been interesting...

The OP relates to the mayor of Tel Aviv, Ron Huldai, blaming Israel's occupation as a reason for attacks by Palestinians...

Has there been a single post from a single Israeli or Israel supporter agreeing or arguing against his words?

Not a one has managed to put forward a sensible, cohesive argument against the belief of Ron Huldai... Could it be a simple 'deflection' of fact as it's far too 'dangerous' to contemplate? That maybe, just maybe, the Israeli occupation really IS a reason for attacks against Israel?!?!

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Let's try something else, if you or anyone else here seems to be able to suggest a solution kindly share it with us.

Strangely enough... I did suggest a solution...

All you offered was the 'victimhood' card and the status quo...

Sorry Daniyel, I cannot accept the status quo as a solution!

So, how about YOU offer up a sensible, non violent, non status quo solution?

I would be very interested to read that!

Tinmore, why are you "thanking" Humanity, when Humanity supports a 2-state solution, while you want the complete destruction of Israel?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Let's try something else, if you or anyone else here seems to be able to suggest a solution kindly share it with us.

Strangely enough... I did suggest a solution...

All you offered was the 'victimhood' card and the status quo...

Sorry Daniyel, I cannot accept the status quo as a solution!

So, how about YOU offer up a sensible, non violent, non status quo solution?

I would be very interested to read that!

Tinmore, why are you "thanking" Humanity, when Humanity supports a 2-state solution, while you want the complete destruction of Israel?

Get a grip!

What do you mean? Tinmore is opposed to Israel's very existence.