What are libertarians?

[bripat9643]

Can anyone (it seems Kaz has cut and run) define the phrase "general Welfare" as used in clause 1 of the 8th Sec. In Article I and to what it references.

If it does not refer to the citizens, to what does the phrase refer?

Um...cut and run? I've been going through the 34 replies I got overnight in order. They are all over the place.

And I've told you what general welfare is repeatedly. It is general welfare. General means everyone, welfare means benefit. Welfare is not referring to your government check.

So general welfare means, everyone benefits. Everyone benefits from having military, police, roads. When government takes money from one person and gives it to another, that is specific welfare, it only benefits the person receiving the check, it harms the person the money was taken from. The Federal government is authorized to only benefit everyone, not to benefit some at the expense of others.

If you give individuals healthcare they cannot otherwise afford, you likely improve their health, which contributes to the general health of the nation,

and the health of the nation is a general welfare concern, an economic concern, and a national security concern.

You could use the same logic to give everyone a car or a house. That isn't "the general welfare." That's the welfare of particular people. How does the fact that you are healthier benefit me?

 

[bripat9643]

Can anyone (it seems Kaz has cut and run) define the phrase "general Welfare" as used in clause 1 of the 8th Sec. In Article I and to what it references.

If it does not refer to the citizens, to what does the phrase refer?

Um...cut and run? I've been going through the 34 replies I got overnight in order. They are all over the place.

And I've told you what general welfare is repeatedly. It is general welfare. General means everyone, welfare means benefit. Welfare is not referring to your government check.

So general welfare means, everyone benefits. Everyone benefits from having military, police, roads. When government takes money from one person and gives it to another, that is specific welfare, it only benefits the person receiving the check, it harms the person the money was taken from. The Federal government is authorized to only benefit everyone, not to benefit some at the expense of others.

Everyone benefits from not having sick and poor people roaming the streets begging for help

General Welfare

We would all benefit from locking them up in work camps.

We the People have decided we do not like that idea. We reserve it for despotic dictatorships

But it's for the general welfare! Are you saying the general welfare is despotic and dictatorial?

 

[rightwinger]

Can anyone (it seems Kaz has cut and run) define the phrase "general Welfare" as used in clause 1 of the 8th Sec. In Article I and to what it references.

If it does not refer to the citizens, to what does the phrase refer?

Um...cut and run? I've been going through the 34 replies I got overnight in order. They are all over the place.

And I've told you what general welfare is repeatedly. It is general welfare. General means everyone, welfare means benefit. Welfare is not referring to your government check.

So general welfare means, everyone benefits. Everyone benefits from having military, police, roads. When government takes money from one person and gives it to another, that is specific welfare, it only benefits the person receiving the check, it harms the person the money was taken from. The Federal government is authorized to only benefit everyone, not to benefit some at the expense of others.

If you give individuals healthcare they cannot otherwise afford, you likely improve their health, which contributes to the general health of the nation,

and the health of the nation is a general welfare concern, an economic concern, and a national security concern.

You could use the same logic to give everyone a car or a house. That isn't "the general welfare." That's the welfare of particular people. How does the fact that you are healthier benefit me?

It doesn't have to benefit you as a person. It has to benefit society as a whole

Having a healthy population benefits society

 

[konradv]

Can anyone (it seems Kaz has cut and run) define the phrase "general Welfare" as used in clause 1 of the 8th Sec. In Article I and to what it references.

If it does not refer to the citizens, to what does the phrase refer?

Um...cut and run? I've been going through the 34 replies I got overnight in order. They are all over the place.

And I've told you what general welfare is repeatedly. It is general welfare. General means everyone, welfare means benefit. Welfare is not referring to your government check.

So general welfare means, everyone benefits. Everyone benefits from having military, police, roads. When government takes money from one person and gives it to another, that is specific welfare, it only benefits the person receiving the check, it harms the person the money was taken from. The Federal government is authorized to only benefit everyone, not to benefit some at the expense of others.

If you give individuals healthcare they cannot otherwise afford, you likely improve their health, which contributes to the general health of the nation,

and the health of the nation is a general welfare concern, an economic concern, and a national security concern.

You could use the same logic to give everyone a car or a house. That isn't "the general welfare." That's the welfare of particular people. How does the fact that you are healthier benefit me?

How does educating someone else's children benefit me? The only thing greater than your lack of knowledge seems to be your lack of foresight!!!

 

[kaz]

Shits storm of Hypocrisy ..............

By definition, you do your thing, as long as I approve and I will do my thing regardless of what you say!!

Strawman.

Libertarian view is you have the right to do what you want as long as you don't infringe on my right to do the same.

Great, and HOW do you intend to enforce it? Punishment after the fact is regressive.

Nothing turns out to be so oppressive and unjust as a feeble government.
Edmund Burke

LOL, I always like the libertarians are anarchists line, never gets tired. Even when in my original post I said I am not talking about anarchists, I'm talking about small government libertarians.

Thanks! Nice contribution to the discussion there. BTW, Bripat is an anarchist, you can ask him the question.

 

[kaz]

Everyone benefits from not having sick and poor people roaming the streets begging for help

General Welfare

So our choices are government redistribution of wealth or sick and poor people roam the streets begging for help? You can't think of any other option?

 

[kaz]

It doesn't have to benefit you as a person. It has to benefit society as a whole

Having a healthy population benefits society

LOL, which is why they wrote a Constitution to limit federal power, and in the Constitution gave it the power to do anything...

 

[rightwinger]

It doesn't have to benefit you as a person. It has to benefit society as a whole

Having a healthy population benefits society

LOL, which is why they wrote a Constitution to limit federal power, and in the Constitution gave it the power to do anything...

They give Congress the task to provide for the General Welfare

 

[bripat9643]

Can anyone (it seems Kaz has cut and run) define the phrase "general Welfare" as used in clause 1 of the 8th Sec. In Article I and to what it references.

If it does not refer to the citizens, to what does the phrase refer?

Um...cut and run? I've been going through the 34 replies I got overnight in order. They are all over the place.

And I've told you what general welfare is repeatedly. It is general welfare. General means everyone, welfare means benefit. Welfare is not referring to your government check.

So general welfare means, everyone benefits. Everyone benefits from having military, police, roads. When government takes money from one person and gives it to another, that is specific welfare, it only benefits the person receiving the check, it harms the person the money was taken from. The Federal government is authorized to only benefit everyone, not to benefit some at the expense of others.

If you give individuals healthcare they cannot otherwise afford, you likely improve their health, which contributes to the general health of the nation,

and the health of the nation is a general welfare concern, an economic concern, and a national security concern.

You could use the same logic to give everyone a car or a house. That isn't "the general welfare." That's the welfare of particular people. How does the fact that you are healthier benefit me?

It doesn't have to benefit you as a person. It has to benefit society as a whole

Having a healthy population benefits society

If it doesn't benefit me, then how does it benefit "society as a whole?" Doesn't that mean every member of society should benefit?

I could claim that giving the family down the street a plasma TV would benefit the general welfare because then perhaps their kids would be happier and wouldn't beat up other kids in school. Your logic would justify almost anything. It would be used to rationalize giving Bill Gates a billion dollars. It would be used to justify putting all Democrats in concentration camps.

Furthermore, you logic ignores the negative side of the equation. It ignores all the harm done to taxpayers by taking more of their income so deadbeats and goldbrickers can while away their time without working.

 

[bripat9643]

It doesn't have to benefit you as a person. It has to benefit society as a whole

Having a healthy population benefits society

LOL, which is why they wrote a Constitution to limit federal power, and in the Constitution gave it the power to do anything...

They give Congress the task to provide for the General Welfare

The powers enumerated in the Constitution define the general welfare.

 

[bripat9643]

Can anyone (it seems Kaz has cut and run) define the phrase "general Welfare" as used in clause 1 of the 8th Sec. In Article I and to what it references.

If it does not refer to the citizens, to what does the phrase refer?

Um...cut and run? I've been going through the 34 replies I got overnight in order. They are all over the place.

And I've told you what general welfare is repeatedly. It is general welfare. General means everyone, welfare means benefit. Welfare is not referring to your government check.

So general welfare means, everyone benefits. Everyone benefits from having military, police, roads. When government takes money from one person and gives it to another, that is specific welfare, it only benefits the person receiving the check, it harms the person the money was taken from. The Federal government is authorized to only benefit everyone, not to benefit some at the expense of others.

If you give individuals healthcare they cannot otherwise afford, you likely improve their health, which contributes to the general health of the nation,

and the health of the nation is a general welfare concern, an economic concern, and a national security concern.

You could use the same logic to give everyone a car or a house. That isn't "the general welfare." That's the welfare of particular people. How does the fact that you are healthier benefit me?

How does educating someone else's children benefit me? The only thing greater than your lack of knowledge seems to be your lack of foresight!!!

It doesn't benefit me. The taxes I have to pay for it positively harm me.

 

[Bfgrn]

Can anyone (it seems Kaz has cut and run) define the phrase "general Welfare" as used in clause 1 of the 8th Sec. In Article I and to what it references.

If it does not refer to the citizens, to what does the phrase refer?

Um...cut and run? I've been going through the 34 replies I got overnight in order. They are all over the place.

And I've told you what general welfare is repeatedly. It is general welfare. General means everyone, welfare means benefit. Welfare is not referring to your government check.

So general welfare means, everyone benefits. Everyone benefits from having military, police, roads. When government takes money from one person and gives it to another, that is specific welfare, it only benefits the person receiving the check, it harms the person the money was taken from. The Federal government is authorized to only benefit everyone, not to benefit some at the expense of others.

Everyone benefits from not having sick and poor people roaming the streets begging for help

General Welfare

We would all benefit from locking them up in work camps.

We the People have decided we do not like that idea. We reserve it for despotic dictatorships

Can anyone (it seems Kaz has cut and run) define the phrase "general Welfare" as used in clause 1 of the 8th Sec. In Article I and to what it references.

If it does not refer to the citizens, to what does the phrase refer?

Um...cut and run? I've been going through the 34 replies I got overnight in order. They are all over the place.

And I've told you what general welfare is repeatedly. It is general welfare. General means everyone, welfare means benefit. Welfare is not referring to your government check.

So general welfare means, everyone benefits. Everyone benefits from having military, police, roads. When government takes money from one person and gives it to another, that is specific welfare, it only benefits the person receiving the check, it harms the person the money was taken from. The Federal government is authorized to only benefit everyone, not to benefit some at the expense of others.

Everyone benefits from not having sick and poor people roaming the streets begging for help

General Welfare

We would all benefit from locking them up in work camps.

Holy fuck, talk about "appeal to authority"

WHO decides who gets 'locked up' pea brain?...GOVERNMENT...
WHO builds the 'work camps' pea brain?..GOVERNMENT...
WHO locks them up pea brain?..GOVERNMENT...

 

[Wry Catcher]

Can anyone (it seems Kaz has cut and run) define the phrase "general Welfare" as used in clause 1 of the 8th Sec. In Article I and to what it references.

If it does not refer to the citizens, to what does the phrase refer?

Um...cut and run? I've been going through the 34 replies I got overnight in order. They are all over the place.

And I've told you what general welfare is repeatedly. It is general welfare. General means everyone, welfare means benefit. Welfare is not referring to your government check.

So general welfare means, everyone benefits. Everyone benefits from having military, police, roads. When government takes money from one person and gives it to another, that is specific welfare, it only benefits the person receiving the check, it harms the person the money was taken from. The Federal government is authorized to only benefit everyone, not to benefit some at the expense of others.

If you give individuals healthcare they cannot otherwise afford, you likely improve their health, which contributes to the general health of the nation,

and the health of the nation is a general welfare concern, an economic concern, and a national security concern.

You could use the same logic to give everyone a car or a house. That isn't "the general welfare." That's the welfare of particular people. How does the fact that you are healthier benefit me?

How does educating someone else's children benefit me? The only thing greater than your lack of knowledge seems to be your lack of foresight!!!

It doesn't benefit me. The taxes I have to pay for it positively harm me.

Crybaby ^^^. Do you lack food, clothing or shelter? Are you unable to afford medical insurance? Are you hated for being poor, are you exploited in a minimum wage job with no way out?

Man up, and stop whining.

BTW, your opinion on the meaning of general Welfare is worth the same as most of your opinions. Nada.

 

[bripat9643]

Can anyone (it seems Kaz has cut and run) define the phrase "general Welfare" as used in clause 1 of the 8th Sec. In Article I and to what it references.

If it does not refer to the citizens, to what does the phrase refer?

Um...cut and run? I've been going through the 34 replies I got overnight in order. They are all over the place.

And I've told you what general welfare is repeatedly. It is general welfare. General means everyone, welfare means benefit. Welfare is not referring to your government check.

So general welfare means, everyone benefits. Everyone benefits from having military, police, roads. When government takes money from one person and gives it to another, that is specific welfare, it only benefits the person receiving the check, it harms the person the money was taken from. The Federal government is authorized to only benefit everyone, not to benefit some at the expense of others.

Everyone benefits from not having sick and poor people roaming the streets begging for help

General Welfare

We would all benefit from locking them up in work camps.

We the People have decided we do not like that idea. We reserve it for despotic dictatorships

Can anyone (it seems Kaz has cut and run) define the phrase "general Welfare" as used in clause 1 of the 8th Sec. In Article I and to what it references.

If it does not refer to the citizens, to what does the phrase refer?

Um...cut and run? I've been going through the 34 replies I got overnight in order. They are all over the place.

And I've told you what general welfare is repeatedly. It is general welfare. General means everyone, welfare means benefit. Welfare is not referring to your government check.

So general welfare means, everyone benefits. Everyone benefits from having military, police, roads. When government takes money from one person and gives it to another, that is specific welfare, it only benefits the person receiving the check, it harms the person the money was taken from. The Federal government is authorized to only benefit everyone, not to benefit some at the expense of others.

Everyone benefits from not having sick and poor people roaming the streets begging for help

General Welfare

We would all benefit from locking them up in work camps.

Holy fuck, talk about "appeal to authority"

WHO decides who gets 'locked up' pea brain?...GOVERNMENT...
WHO builds the 'work camps' pea brain?..GOVERNMENT...
WHO locks them up pea brain?..GOVERNMENT...

You don't seem to get the point that my post was mocking the post I responded to. "We the people" decide who gets locked up for the "general welfare." That's how we decide who gets welfare and who gets to pay for it, isn't it?

Fascism is perfectly consistent with the "general welfare."

Glad to see you admit it.

 

[Bfgrn]

Everyone benefits from not having sick and poor people roaming the streets begging for help

General Welfare

So our choices are government redistribution of wealth or sick and poor people roam the streets begging for help? You can't think of any other option?

SURE!

 

[bripat9643]

Can anyone (it seems Kaz has cut and run) define the phrase "general Welfare" as used in clause 1 of the 8th Sec. In Article I and to what it references.

If it does not refer to the citizens, to what does the phrase refer?

Um...cut and run? I've been going through the 34 replies I got overnight in order. They are all over the place.

And I've told you what general welfare is repeatedly. It is general welfare. General means everyone, welfare means benefit. Welfare is not referring to your government check.

So general welfare means, everyone benefits. Everyone benefits from having military, police, roads. When government takes money from one person and gives it to another, that is specific welfare, it only benefits the person receiving the check, it harms the person the money was taken from. The Federal government is authorized to only benefit everyone, not to benefit some at the expense of others.

If you give individuals healthcare they cannot otherwise afford, you likely improve their health, which contributes to the general health of the nation,

and the health of the nation is a general welfare concern, an economic concern, and a national security concern.

You could use the same logic to give everyone a car or a house. That isn't "the general welfare." That's the welfare of particular people. How does the fact that you are healthier benefit me?

How does educating someone else's children benefit me? The only thing greater than your lack of knowledge seems to be your lack of foresight!!!

It doesn't benefit me. The taxes I have to pay for it positively harm me.

Crybaby ^^^. Do you lack food, clothing or shelter? Are you unable to afford medical insurance? Are you hated for being poor, are you exploited in a minimum wage job with no way out?

No, I am not. So explain how welfare benefits me? We are discussing the "general welfare," not the welfare of only deadbeats and goldbrickers.

Paying some irresponsible slut to have promiscuous sex without using birth control positively harms society. Their spawn grow up only to prey on their fellow citizens and populate the state prisons. Instead of paying them money, their children should be taken away from them and put up for adoption. That would genuinely benefit society.

Man up, and stop whining.

BTW, your opinion on the meaning of general Welfare is worth the same as most of your opinions. Nada.

Your evaluation of my post is based on the usual: nothing but liberal arrogance. Try posting some facts or logic once in a while.

 

[rightwinger]

Can anyone (it seems Kaz has cut and run) define the phrase "general Welfare" as used in clause 1 of the 8th Sec. In Article I and to what it references.

If it does not refer to the citizens, to what does the phrase refer?

Um...cut and run? I've been going through the 34 replies I got overnight in order. They are all over the place.

And I've told you what general welfare is repeatedly. It is general welfare. General means everyone, welfare means benefit. Welfare is not referring to your government check.

So general welfare means, everyone benefits. Everyone benefits from having military, police, roads. When government takes money from one person and gives it to another, that is specific welfare, it only benefits the person receiving the check, it harms the person the money was taken from. The Federal government is authorized to only benefit everyone, not to benefit some at the expense of others.

If you give individuals healthcare they cannot otherwise afford, you likely improve their health, which contributes to the general health of the nation,

and the health of the nation is a general welfare concern, an economic concern, and a national security concern.

You could use the same logic to give everyone a car or a house. That isn't "the general welfare." That's the welfare of particular people. How does the fact that you are healthier benefit me?

It doesn't have to benefit you as a person. It has to benefit society as a whole

Having a healthy population benefits society

If it doesn't benefit me, then how does it benefit "society as a whole?" Doesn't that mean every member of society should benefit?

I could claim that giving the family down the street a plasma TV would benefit the general welfare because then perhaps their kids would be happier and wouldn't beat up other kids in school. Your logic would justify almost anything. It would be used to rationalize giving Bill Gates a billion dollars. It would be used to justify putting all Democrats in concentration camps.

Furthermore, you logic ignores the negative side of the equation. It ignores all the harm done to taxpayers by taking more of their income so deadbeats and goldbrickers can while away their time without working.

No, it doesn't mean that every member of society should benefit

How can any law benefit each citizen equally?

Does a major highway or dam being built in California benefit me in NJ? No, it does not. But it benefits our society as a whole

 

[Londoner]

The most effective criticisms of Reagan's slice of the Cold War and Bush's War on Terrorism came not from the Left but from the Libertarians.

Reagan used the Cold War as a context to expand and solidify the global market system. He used the threat of communism to pull resource-rich parts of the 3rd world under the Eagle's protective wing. The Cold War was not directly about national security, it was about intervening in the politics and markets of foreign nations so as to procure the resources and political arrangements most advantageous to our economy, which itself depends on materials and labor from all parts of the globe. The Libertarians - mostly at the CATO institute - said by doing this Reagan put Washington in charge of the world. He made the USA into a defender of Global Capitalism, and he expanded Washington's power well beyond the intent of the framers.

When the Cold War unwound, the War on Terrorism, which was based on a real threat, became a substitute context for intervening in foreign nations, their politics and markets. Meaning: national security continued to be the justification to control places that had resources upon which our economy depended.

Libertarians made this argument because they saw things the Liberals could only guess it. Most of my conservative friends who are heavily influenced by the Right wing message system never received this interpretation of how our politicians use national security to craft the global economy - as a context for intervention in vital resource zones.

But the essential fact remains. The Cold War and War on Terrorism, by creating a military complex large enough to control the globe, and by detaching itself from national security, is exactly what the Libertarians feared. They feared that the very accumulation of the power needed to control the global market system would make it too easy for government bureaucrats to intervene and control foreign nations ... and that this would have terrible consequences. They warned us that eventually we would bite off more than we could chew, and that we would bankrupt the nation slowly under the ruse of national security. They also said that we could not control how government would use the accumulated power of the Cold War and War on Terrorism, and that once they had the power, they would use it to listen to our phone calls and set up greater surveillance over free citizens. Why? Because once you concentrate too much power in the hands of the few, the opportunity for abuse it goes way up. Humans are imperfect and they lack the information, competence and ethics to handle concentrated power.

The bigger the lever of power, the bigger the mistake.

 

[Wry Catcher]

We have one biased opinion on the meaning of general Welfare by bripat, a known callous conservative. His biases and hate expressed clearly here ("Paying some irresponsible slut to have promiscuous sex without using birth control positively harms society. Their spawn grow up only to prey on their fellow citizens and populate the state prisons. Instead of paying them money, their children should be taken away from them and put up for adoption. That would genuinely benefit society") are well known and cloud any judgment he makes.

 

[DrDoomNGloom]

If you give individuals healthcare they cannot otherwise afford, you likely improve their health, which contributes to the general health of the nation,

and the health of the nation is a general welfare concern, an economic concern, and a national security concern.

Now if those healthy people would work and contribute to society in a productive manner then we are coming closer to an idea that could become acceptable.

Wait, you say you want to be healthy at our expense, but do not wish to become part of "us" the working class once that health is obtained, then you kind of loose that advantage you are looking for ................

I mean this look like simple negotiations to me, what is a persons health worth?? Hard work, combined with a pleasant attitude for those who enabled you and those who will be working with you ...............

Bet you DON'T respond to this ......................