What beliefs define a 21st Century American conservative?

[Wry Catcher]

Wrong. How did I accept to the so-called "social contract," by being born? How do you accept a contract "by default?" I doubt you'll find any judge in America that agrees with that novel legal proposition. The "social contract" is a con invented to brainwash people into believing that they have agreed to the taxes and regulations the government imposes on them. I have never agreed to any such thing, and given the chance I never would. No one else has either.

A gentle correction. That which the government imposes on us without our cionsent is not social contract.

"Social Contract", in context, is a menaingless term used to convince those that know no better that they have a legally enforceable moral responsibility to help those less fortunate. There is no sound basis for this argument as the discharge of all moral responsibilites is voluntary.

Foxfyere wrote:

"Social contract is how we the people CHOOSE to organize ourselves for a more orderly and cohesive society for the mutual benefit of all. The Police and Fire Depts. (as well as utilities, sewer system, shared roads etc.) are decided as beneficial shared services by the community who will vote to fund them. Those who subsequently move into or are born into that community will then benefit from those services; however if he or she does not wish to participate he or she has full right to move out of that community and seek one in which everybody provides their own security and fire protection etc.

"The social contract is the ordinances and regulation that is seen by the whole community as necessary to maintain order and protect the rights of all. It is what services the people themselves determine to share and fund as beneficial to all rather than each person providing such services for himself/herself. And again, it is the prerogative of those who do not wish to participate to remove themselves from the community and live elsewhere. That is what freedom looks like"

I thanked Foxfyre for a very helpful and thoughtful post.

 

[M14 Shooter]

A gentle correction. That which the government imposes on us without our cionsent is not social contract.

"Social Contract", in context, is a menaingless term used to convince those that know no better that they have a legally enforceable moral responsibility to help those less fortunate. There is no sound basis for this argument as the discharge of all moral responsibilites is voluntary.

Foxfyere wrote:

"Social contract is how we the people CHOOSE to organize ourselves for a more orderly and cohesive society for the mutual benefit of all. The Police and Fire Depts. (as well as utilities, sewer system, shared roads etc.) are decided as beneficial shared services by the community who will vote to fund them. Those who subsequently move into or are born into that community will then benefit from those services; however if he or she does not wish to participate he or she has full right to move out of that community and seek one in which everybody provides their own security and fire protection etc.

"The social contract is the ordinances and regulation that is seen by the whole community as necessary to maintain order and protect the rights of all. It is what services the people themselves determine to share and fund as beneficial to all rather than each person providing such services for himself/herself. And again, it is the prerogative of those who do not wish to participate to remove themselves from the community and live elsewhere. That is what freedom looks like"

I thanked Foxfyre for a very helpful and thoughtful post.

And I thank you for, again, not meaningfully addressing what I said -- you did note that what -I- posted was in response to what -you- copied, yes?

 

[uscitizen]

How is this related to the question asked?

The origional question was:
What beliefs define a 21st Century American conservative?
Think about it a bit.

The question referenced consrtvatives.
Your response referenced Republcans.
Thus, your response is not related.

Point taken. I am a liberal fiscal conservative.
I was against govt overspending when the right was supporting it. Reagan, Bush I,II and Clowntoon as well.
Why did the conservatives stop Paygo?

However for the purpose of this thread I think conservatives and republicans are the same thing.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The origional question was:
What beliefs define a 21st Century American conservative?
Think about it a bit.

The question referenced consrtvatives.
Your response referenced Republcans.
Thus, your response is not related.

However for the purpose of this thread I think conservatives and republicans are the same thing.

The GOP is, ideologically, a fairly broad party - your supposition is unsupportable.

 

[Wry Catcher]

"Social Contract", in context, is a menaingless term used to convince those that know no better that they have a legally enforceable moral responsibility to help those less fortunate. There is no sound basis for this argument as the discharge of all moral responsibilites is voluntary.

Foxfyere wrote:

"Social contract is how we the people CHOOSE to organize ourselves for a more orderly and cohesive society for the mutual benefit of all. The Police and Fire Depts. (as well as utilities, sewer system, shared roads etc.) are decided as beneficial shared services by the community who will vote to fund them. Those who subsequently move into or are born into that community will then benefit from those services; however if he or she does not wish to participate he or she has full right to move out of that community and seek one in which everybody provides their own security and fire protection etc.

"The social contract is the ordinances and regulation that is seen by the whole community as necessary to maintain order and protect the rights of all. It is what services the people themselves determine to share and fund as beneficial to all rather than each person providing such services for himself/herself. And again, it is the prerogative of those who do not wish to participate to remove themselves from the community and live elsewhere. That is what freedom looks like"

I thanked Foxfyre for a very helpful and thoughtful post.

And I thank you for, again, not meaningfully addressing what I said.

FU. You want to be an asshole, I'll respond as I do to assholes. You post social contract "in context"; explain what you meant or not. Frankly, you're a callous conservative and will remain so until you need help.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Foxfyere wrote:

"Social contract is how we the people CHOOSE to organize ourselves for a more orderly and cohesive society for the mutual benefit of all. The Police and Fire Depts. (as well as utilities, sewer system, shared roads etc.) are decided as beneficial shared services by the community who will vote to fund them. Those who subsequently move into or are born into that community will then benefit from those services; however if he or she does not wish to participate he or she has full right to move out of that community and seek one in which everybody provides their own security and fire protection etc.

"The social contract is the ordinances and regulation that is seen by the whole community as necessary to maintain order and protect the rights of all. It is what services the people themselves determine to share and fund as beneficial to all rather than each person providing such services for himself/herself. And again, it is the prerogative of those who do not wish to participate to remove themselves from the community and live elsewhere. That is what freedom looks like"

I thanked Foxfyre for a very helpful and thoughtful post.

And I thank you for, again, not meaningfully addressing what I said.

FU. You want to be an asshole, I'll respond as I do to assholes.

Ah... the child rips off the adult costume and puts his petulance on display for all to see.
I wondered how long that would take.

You probably didnt notice that what -I- posted was in response to what -you- copied.
Re-stating what I responded to is not a menaingful response to my post.
Thus, you did not meaningfully address what I said.

Sorry that you got all butthurt over the truth. - but that's -all- on you.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Foxfyere wrote:

"Social contract is how we the people CHOOSE to organize ourselves for a more orderly and cohesive society for the mutual benefit of all. The Police and Fire Depts. (as well as utilities, sewer system, shared roads etc.) are decided as beneficial shared services by the community who will vote to fund them. Those who subsequently move into or are born into that community will then benefit from those services; however if he or she does not wish to participate he or she has full right to move out of that community and seek one in which everybody provides their own security and fire protection etc.

"The social contract is the ordinances and regulation that is seen by the whole community as necessary to maintain order and protect the rights of all. It is what services the people themselves determine to share and fund as beneficial to all rather than each person providing such services for himself/herself. And again, it is the prerogative of those who do not wish to participate to remove themselves from the community and live elsewhere. That is what freedom looks like"

I thanked Foxfyre for a very helpful and thoughtful post.

And I thank you for, again, not meaningfully addressing what I said.

FU. You want to be an asshole, I'll respond as I do to assholes. You post social contract "in context"; explain what you meant or not. Frankly, you're a callous conservative and will remain so until you need help.

This is the type of reaction I would expect from a toddler who's stocking was only 1/2 full christmas morning.

Tantrum throwing and feet stomping.

 

[bripat9643]

This is the type of reaction I would expect from a toddler who's stocking was only 1/2 full christmas morning.

Tantrum throwing and feet stomping.

Wry Catcher also sent me some private emails asking me to go away. He/she really seems to have his panties in a tight little wad today.

 

[Foxfyre]

Wrong. How did I accept to the so-called "social contract," by being born? How do you accept a contract "by default?" I doubt you'll find any judge in America that agrees with that novel legal proposition. The "social contract" is a con invented to brainwash people into believing that they have agreed to the taxes and regulations the government imposes on them. I have never agreed to any such thing, and given the chance I never would. No one else has either.

A gentle correction. That which the government imposes on us without our consent is not social contract.

Social contract is how we the people CHOOSE to organize ourselves for a more orderly and cohesive society for the mutual benefit of all. The Police and Fire Depts. (as well as utilities, sewer system, shared roads etc.) are decided as beneficial shared services by the community who will vote to fund them. Those who subsequently move into or are born into that community will then benefit from those services; however if he or she does not wish to participate he or she has full right to move out of that community and seek one in which everybody provides their own security and fire protection etc.

Wrong. that isn't the so-called "social contract" either. It's no more voluntary than agreeing to pay Guido the leg breaker is "insurance" money because you setup a business in his "turf." I don't consent to anything simply because I purchase a piece of property in a given local. Third parties who weren't involved in the transaction have no authority to impose anything on me. They certainly don't have my "consent."

Yes, under social contract you subject yourself to the law. Under the freedom envisioned by the Founders, it is not the government that imposes the social contract but rather the people who choose a certain system and adopt certain laws and regulations by which they organize themselves into a mutually beneficial community. You 'consent' to the social contract adopted by those who came before you when you choose to live in that community. If it is not to your liking, you have complete freedom to choose somewhere else to live, buy property, run your business, or whatever.

Whatever the people consent to is social contract.

It is only when the government chooses the system without the consent of the people that you have something other than social contract.

The social contract is the ordinances and regulation that is seen by the whole community as necessary to maintain order and protect the rights of all. It is what services the people themselves determine to share and fund as beneficial to all rather than each person providing such services for himself/herself. And again, it is the prerogative of those who do not wish to participate to remove themselves from the community and live elsewhere. That is what freedom looks like.

No, that isn't what freedom looks like. Telling "the community" to go to hell when they attempt to impose their "services" on you is what freedom looks like.

No, that is anarchy which, along with authoritarian government, is antithesis to freedom. Freedom is the right to use public toilets and water supply and thereby avoid using the city sewer system; to use Coleman lanterns instead of the public utility system; to forego the municipal library; to not call the police when you life or property is threatened. Freedom is moving away from other people so that you can build your own little empire exactly as you want it and provide everything for yourself. But as long as you choose to live under the social contract, you voluntarily obligate yourself to support the shared community services. Freedom is the ability to do that.

Obviously, if the law or service is ordered by the Federal government, there is no place for anybody to go other than leave the country. Freedom is squashed. That is not social contract.

Sure there is. They can go to Mexico or Canada. Your line of reasoning is indistinguishable from those claiming the federal income tax is a product of the "social contract."

There is no "social contract," period. It's a myth and a scam.

Um, would not going to Mexico or Canada be leaving the country?

Social contract is a reality and is a necessary ingredient for civilization. Misapplying the definition to what is not social contract is your problem.

 

[francoHFW]

You are sorely misled lol

 

[M14 Shooter]

This is the type of reaction I would expect from a toddler who's stocking was only 1/2 full christmas morning.

Tantrum throwing and feet stomping.

Wry Catcher also sent me some private emails asking me to go away. He/she really seems to have his panties in a tight little wad today.

I haven't received anything.
Not sure if I should be flattered or offended.

 

[Dr.Drock]

This is the type of reaction I would expect from a toddler who's stocking was only 1/2 full christmas morning.

Tantrum throwing and feet stomping.

Wry Catcher also sent me some private emails asking me to go away. He/she really seems to have his panties in a tight little wad today.

I haven't received anything.
Not sure if I should be flattered or offended.

He only got a go away, you got a full blown FU. You should feel completely flattered lol.

I remember that in college, whenever we had a debate our professor said the way to show someone won the debate was when they started saying FU to their opponent. So you may also feel defeated .

 

[M14 Shooter]

Social contract is a reality and is a necessary ingredient for civilization. Misapplying the definition to what is not social contract is your problem.

When many discuss the 'social contract' they hold the term to mean there is an enforceable moral responsibility tio provide for people that cannot provide for themselves. This goes beyond your argument which is, essentially, the implicit societal consent to be goverened by the law.

That, BTW, is what I meant by "in context", given that -my- dicussion was with someone who inexplicably believes he should be able to force his morality onto everyone else.

 

[Foxfyre]

Social contract is a reality and is a necessary ingredient for civilization. Misapplying the definition to what is not social contract is your problem.

When many discuss the 'social contract' they hold the term to mean there is an enforceable moral responsibility tio provide for people that cannot provide for themselves. This goes beyond your argument which is, essentially, the implicit societal consent to be goverened by the law.

That, BTW, is what I meant by "in context", given that -my- dicussion was with someone who believes he should be able to force his morality onto everyone else.

Yes, it must be acknowledged that the modern American conservative will define social contract differently than will American liberals or those who cannot define the terms.

To the conservative, the people, out of a sense of morality, can include provisions for the less fortunate in the social contract. That is where the civic homeless shelter, police shuttles to the shelter in freezing weather, senior centers, social services, etc. comes in. Each, however, should always be on a ballot so that the people can vote their consent to fund such services, and communities that do so will generally supplement the public services with private charities as well. It should never be the government arbitrarily confiscating property from some citizens in order to provide for others. The latter is not social contract but forced redistribution of wealth and contrary to all principles of freedom.

In my opinion, it is also the single most corrupting influence in the American society today.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Social contract is a reality and is a necessary ingredient for civilization. Misapplying the definition to what is not social contract is your problem.

When many discuss the 'social contract' they hold the term to mean there is an enforceable moral responsibility tio provide for people that cannot provide for themselves. This goes beyond your argument which is, essentially, the implicit societal consent to be goverened by the law.

That, BTW, is what I meant by "in context", given that -my- dicussion was with someone who believes he should be able to force his morality onto everyone else.

The people, out of a sense of morality, can include provisions for the less fortunate in the social contract.

Except that part of the social contract is that we do not allow people to force their morality on others - part of the social contract is that each of has the right to exspress our version of our morality in whatever way we chosse, so long as we do not, like with the exercise of any other right, infringe upon the rights of others.

Nothing about living in a society creates an enforceable moral obligation to those in that society.

 

[bripat9643]

Yes, under social contract you subject yourself to the law.

The "social contract" doesn't exist. It's a myth and a con.

Under the freedom envisioned by the Founders, it is not the government that imposes the social contract but rather the people who choose a certain system and adopt certain laws and regulations by which they organize themselves into a mutually beneficial community.

That's just propaganda. There is no social contract, and I didn't agree to anything. The claim that government doesn't impose regulations and taxes is too absurd to even bother refuting.

You 'consent' to the social contract adopted by those who came before you when you choose to live in that community.

No I don't, and I already explained what that logic is bogus, but you failed to address my argument. If I agree to the regulations and taxes "the community" imposed simply because I purchased a property within its borders, then I also agree to pay "protection" money to Guido the Leg Breaker because I setup a business on his "turf."

If it is not to your liking, you have complete freedom to choose somewhere else to live, buy property, run your business, or whatever.

ROFL! That is the essence of fascism.

Whatever the people consent to is social contract.

As I have already pointed out, I never consented to any "social contract."

It is only when the government chooses the system without the consent of the people that you have something other than social contract.

That would be all the time because there are always at least some people who haven't consented, and in fact most people have never consented to almost everything the government does.

No, that is anarchy which, along with authoritarian government, is antithesis to freedom. Freedom is the right to use public toilets and water supply and thereby avoid using the city sewer system; to use Coleman lanterns instead of the public utility system; to forego the municipal library; to not call the police when you life or property is threatened. Freedom is moving away from other people so that you can build your own little empire exactly as you want it and provide everything for yourself. But as long as you choose to live under the social contract, you voluntarily obligate yourself to support the shared community services. Freedom is the ability to do that.

You're babbling idiotic pablum now. I never agreed to any social contract. You're conception of "freedom" is doing whatever the government tells you to do. That's the fascist conception of the term. Real freedom means doing what you want no matter what "society" or the government wants you to do.

Sure there is. They can go to Mexico or Canada. Your line of reasoning is indistinguishable from those claiming the federal income tax is a product of the "social contract."

There is no "social contract," period. It's a myth and a scam.

Um, would not going to Mexico or Canada be leaving the country?

Yes it would, but you claimed that the rules of the federal government is not part of the social contract because you can't move anywhere to avoid them. Which is it? Is federal regulation part of the social contract or not?

Social contract is a reality and is a necessary ingredient for civilization. Misapplying the definition to what is not social contract is your problem.

Saying the social contract "is a reality" doesn't make it a reality. Where is this document? Where is my signature on it? You claim something that can't be seen or detected in any way is "reality."

What a hoot.

 

[Foxfyre]

Acknowledging:

Bripat has no concept of what social contract is and he obviously wouldn't be impressed by the official definition either.

Bripat does not know what facism is.

Bripat has a reading comprehension problem.

 

[bripat9643]

Acknowledging:

Bripat has no concept of what social contract is and he obviously wouldn't be impressed by the official definition either.

Bripat does not know what facism is.

Bripat has a reading comprehension problem.

Show me my signature on the "social contract" and then you might have some credibility.

 

[Foxfyre]

Acknowledging:

Bripat has no concept of what social contract is and he obviously wouldn't be impressed by the official definition either.

Bripat does not know what facism is.

Bripat has a reading comprehension problem.

Show me my signature on the "social contract" and then you might have some credibility.

All you need to do is look at the mortgage contract on the house you bought or your renter's contract to show you your consent to the social contract adopted by the community YOU CHOSE.

 

[bripat9643]

Show me my signature on the "social contract" and then you might have some credibility.

All you need to do is look at the mortgage contract on the house you bought or your renter's contract to show you your consent to the social contract adopted by the community YOU CHOSE.

Nope. My mortgage contract is an agreement with a bank, not "the community." A rental contract is an agreement with a landlord, not "the community." The difference between you and me is that I don't suffer from delusions and imagine things that aren't there just because it would be nice if they were.