What do liberals want the US to be?

[EdwardBaiamonte]

liberals want America to be a country with enough welfare entitlements and regulations to be communist.

 

[Ame®icano]

Confiscation of one's property is confiscation. Contributions are those things given without penalty.

And just as an FYI: That evil confiscates less at one time or more at another, is irrelevant... DUMBASS!

Taxation is the way society pays for itself. We have one of the lowest levels of taxation of any industrialized country
Stop with the confiscation of property bullshit

you mean one of the highest corporate tax rates....

Actually, one of the lower rates

Statutory corporate tax rate in US is 39.1%.

What you're showing is average rate that gives impression all corporations pays that rate, but in reality some corporations are paying full rate, some are paying nothing, depending on tax breaks given by the government.

Statutory reflects the rate befrore corporations get all those exemptions and tax loopholes they paid politicians for. We all know they don't pay at the statutory rate

You pretty much said the same thing. At least we agree on something.

Now, what's the solution? Close the "loopholes"? How?

 

[Ame®icano]

you mean one of the highest corporate tax rates....

Actually, one of the lower rates

Statutory corporate tax rate in US is 39.1%.

What you're showing is average rate that gives impression all corporations pays that rate, but in reality some corporations are paying full rate, some are paying nothing, depending on tax breaks given by the government.

Statutory reflects the rate befrore corporations get all those exemptions and tax loopholes they paid politicians for. We all know they don't pay at the statutory rate

Yes... OKA: Legal deductions. There are no such things as tax-loopholes. That is a deceitful word which is applied fraudulently as a means to influence the ignorant, in order to lead to them to believe that such is somehow underhanded, untoward or somehow taking something that otherwise doesn't belong to them, such as the money being confiscated through the rationalization of "Taxation".

In terms of tax loopholes, corporations get what they pay for
Now with Citizens United and greater relaxation of allowable corporate donations we can be sure that effective corporate tax rate will drop even further

I don't think donations are problem. Corrupted politicians are.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Taxation is the way society pays for itself. We have one of the lowest levels of taxation of any industrialized country
Stop with the confiscation of property bullshit

you mean one of the highest corporate tax rates....

Actually, one of the lower rates

Statutory corporate tax rate in US is 39.1%.

What you're showing is average rate that gives impression all corporations pays that rate, but in reality some corporations are paying full rate, some are paying nothing, depending on tax breaks given by the government.

Statutory reflects the rate befrore corporations get all those exemptions and tax loopholes they paid politicians for. We all know they don't pay at the statutory rate

You pretty much said the same thing. At least we agree on something.

Now, what's the solution? Close the "loopholes"? How?

solution is obviously to eliminate tax since it collects little revenue but still drives jobs and corps off shore.

 

[Ame®icano]

You don't know how a yearly budget works Bubba? SERIOUSLY?

DEFINITION of 'Budget Surplus'

A situation in which income exceeds expenditures. The term "budget surplus" is most commonly used to refer to the financial situations of governments; individuals speak of "savings" rather than a "budget surplus." A surplus is considered a sign that government is being run efficiently.

Budget Surplus Definition Investopedia

LOL, I work in finance, and I own my own business. I also was a math major as an undergrad. I understand numbers. Let's see how you do.

So read what you just wrote. A budget surplus is "a situation in which income exceeds expenditures." So, if income exceeded expenditures every year Clinton was President, how did the national debt go up? That makes no sense.

Here's an example.

Suppose on January 1, there is a national debt of $10T.

That year, there is a surplus. Income is $1.5T and expenditures are $1.0T.

On December 31 that year, the national debt would be $9.5T. A surplus means the debt goes down.

Now walk me through how with a surplus the debt could go up.

SERIOUSLY? You don't know paying off interest due on debt can still cause debt to increase? You SERIOUSLY went to college and can't understand what a yearly budget is? LOL. You are a disingenuous POS. I'm shocked. I linked you to investipedia already Bubba

You do know almost $1 trillion of PUBLIC debt WAS paid down under Clinton right? That excess PAYROLL taxes were put into bonds? lol AS REQUIRED BY LAW? WHAT DOES THAT DO BUBBA?

Um...you didn't know that interest is an expense? Read any company's annual report. You just admitted the surplus was a lie.

ROFLMNAO!

So a trillion dollars in public debt was paid down, despite the government never having realized budget surpluses anywhere NEAR a trillion dollars?

Now since government has no other means of paying down debt, beyond the spending of less money than for which they have budgeted, given that to tax beyond that which is required to run the government is the definition of tyranny, I wonder how it could be that the US Federal Government came up with a trillion extra dollars, which it did not borrow, thus which would axiomatically increase the debt, by an equal amount?

Gawd you right wingers are pathetic. What happens to excess tax revenues in payroll taxes? Oh right they buy bonds that then create debt. Yes, paying off PUBLIC debt while excess INTRA Govt debt (excess tax revenues buying US bonds as required by law) grows, is possible dummy


Bill Clinton touts fiscal record as president during campaign stop in New Jersey PolitiFact New Jersey

Then you'll be able to explain how much government debt was paid off with Clinton surplus. Oh wait...

 

[Ame®icano]

Like economics accounting is a form of voodoo

Not sure I get that one.

Democrats don't like economics because it keeps accurately predicting the disastrous effects of their government loving policies.

I'll be sure to share this little nugget of imbecility with Paul Krugman when next we meet for dinner

Ask him about this one.......

How about ONE poll EVER in ANY UHC nation that wants US style H/C or wants to get rid of UHC? lol

NHS in UK begin outsourcing to private hospitals and HC providers.

 

[Mac1958]

Actually, one of the lower rates

Statutory corporate tax rate in US is 39.1%.

What you're showing is average rate that gives impression all corporations pays that rate, but in reality some corporations are paying full rate, some are paying nothing, depending on tax breaks given by the government.

Statutory reflects the rate befrore corporations get all those exemptions and tax loopholes they paid politicians for. We all know they don't pay at the statutory rate

Yes... OKA: Legal deductions. There are no such things as tax-loopholes. That is a deceitful word which is applied fraudulently as a means to influence the ignorant, in order to lead to them to believe that such is somehow underhanded, untoward or somehow taking something that otherwise doesn't belong to them, such as the money being confiscated through the rationalization of "Taxation".

In terms of tax loopholes, corporations get what they pay for
Now with Citizens United and greater relaxation of allowable corporate donations we can be sure that effective corporate tax rate will drop even further

I don't think donations are problem. Corrupted politicians are.

The problem is a system that allows for politicians to be bought off by pretty much anyone who wants to buy them off.

A system that distorts legislation because legislators desperately want donations.

Change the system, change the behaviors.

Don't change the system, the behaviors continue.

.

 

[rightwinger]

The statement was not that some Republicans agree with Any Rand, that I would have agreed with.

Republicans seem to agree with all the major figures in human history who supported freedom from liberal government. Those figures are Aristotle Cicero Jesus Luther Locke Jefferson Madison Rand Friedman, and many many others. To narrow it down to Rand is just an indication of illiteracy.

If Republicans agree with them, why don't they do it? I remember W spending us into the ground ala Sweden and the rest of the party voting for that and running the fiscal conservatives who objected out of their best committee assignments.

Those fiscal conservatives were republicans.

It was the vaunted "mainstreamers" (that FakeyJakey loves) who did this.

He and his ilk are responsible for helping Bush put us so far in the red.

Name the GOPers voting against Dubya's 2 UNFUNDED tax cuts that the CBO said was 1/3rd of deficits 2001-2010?

The GOPers asking for a SOURCE of revenue for GOP's 'Medicare expansion', Part D?


How about the GOPer putting forward a bill to PAY FOR the 2 UNFUNDED wars, rather than put it on the credit card?

All the GOPers voted against obama libcommie care and the soviet stimulus!! And they all sign the pledge. Just little cooperation from Democrats and America could get back to being America again.

When Bush asked for stimulus money and TARP, Republicans were all too willing give him everything he asked for

Once Obama became President, they demanded austerity and voted against the same economic tools they gave to Bush

 

[Listening]

Republicans seem to agree with all the major figures in human history who supported freedom from liberal government. Those figures are Aristotle Cicero Jesus Luther Locke Jefferson Madison Rand Friedman, and many many others. To narrow it down to Rand is just an indication of illiteracy.

If Republicans agree with them, why don't they do it? I remember W spending us into the ground ala Sweden and the rest of the party voting for that and running the fiscal conservatives who objected out of their best committee assignments.

Those fiscal conservatives were republicans.

It was the vaunted "mainstreamers" (that FakeyJakey loves) who did this.

He and his ilk are responsible for helping Bush put us so far in the red.

Name the GOPers voting against Dubya's 2 UNFUNDED tax cuts that the CBO said was 1/3rd of deficits 2001-2010?

The GOPers asking for a SOURCE of revenue for GOP's 'Medicare expansion', Part D?


How about the GOPer putting forward a bill to PAY FOR the 2 UNFUNDED wars, rather than put it on the credit card?

All the GOPers voted against obama libcommie care and the soviet stimulus!! And they all sign the pledge. Just little cooperation from Democrats and America could get back to being America again.

When Bush asked for stimulus money and TARP, Republicans were all too willing give him everything he asked for

Once Obama became President, they demanded austerity and voted against the same economic tools they gave to Bush

Who held the house and senate when the "economy" crashed ?

Who held the house and senate when Obama took over ?

Republicans ?

You are a fraud.

And an asshole.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Who held the house and senate when the "economy" crashed ?

Who held the house and senate when Obama took over ?

Republicans ?

You are a fraud.

And an asshole.

NAILED IT!

 

[rightwinger]

If Republicans agree with them, why don't they do it? I remember W spending us into the ground ala Sweden and the rest of the party voting for that and running the fiscal conservatives who objected out of their best committee assignments.

Those fiscal conservatives were republicans.

It was the vaunted "mainstreamers" (that FakeyJakey loves) who did this.

He and his ilk are responsible for helping Bush put us so far in the red.

Name the GOPers voting against Dubya's 2 UNFUNDED tax cuts that the CBO said was 1/3rd of deficits 2001-2010?

The GOPers asking for a SOURCE of revenue for GOP's 'Medicare expansion', Part D?


How about the GOPer putting forward a bill to PAY FOR the 2 UNFUNDED wars, rather than put it on the credit card?

All the GOPers voted against obama libcommie care and the soviet stimulus!! And they all sign the pledge. Just little cooperation from Democrats and America could get back to being America again.

When Bush asked for stimulus money and TARP, Republicans were all too willing give him everything he asked for

Once Obama became President, they demanded austerity and voted against the same economic tools they gave to Bush

Who held the house and senate when the "economy" crashed ?

Who held the house and senate when Obama took over ?

Republicans ?

You are a fraud.

And an asshole.

That would assume they passed some legislation that crashed the economy.......what would that be?

 

[Listening]

Those fiscal conservatives were republicans.

It was the vaunted "mainstreamers" (that FakeyJakey loves) who did this.

He and his ilk are responsible for helping Bush put us so far in the red.

Name the GOPers voting against Dubya's 2 UNFUNDED tax cuts that the CBO said was 1/3rd of deficits 2001-2010?

The GOPers asking for a SOURCE of revenue for GOP's 'Medicare expansion', Part D?


How about the GOPer putting forward a bill to PAY FOR the 2 UNFUNDED wars, rather than put it on the credit card?

All the GOPers voted against obama libcommie care and the soviet stimulus!! And they all sign the pledge. Just little cooperation from Democrats and America could get back to being America again.

When Bush asked for stimulus money and TARP, Republicans were all too willing give him everything he asked for

Once Obama became President, they demanded austerity and voted against the same economic tools they gave to Bush

Who held the house and senate when the "economy" crashed ?

Who held the house and senate when Obama took over ?

Republicans ?

You are a fraud.

And an asshole.

That would assume they passed some legislation that crashed the economy.......what would that be?

Take your ADD meds......

We are talking about your assertion that Republicans were somehow "demanding" something when they were in the minority.

But...to your post....

How the fuck did you come up with that assumption ? You really think that congress can crash (or save) and economy ?

 

[bripat9643]

Sorry, your original question was,

How can you have a budget surplus and the National Debt Still rise....?

and this link explains such...the Budget, which is what Congress and the President work with, is NOT the ONLY function/thing that affects the National Debt,...Intragovernmental Holdings also affect the National Debt.

The budget is calculated as it has always been calculated since LBJ included Social Security in the total budget, there were no Social Security surpluses back then, because SS was pay as you go, until Reagan when SS taxes were raised, (doubled) to collect a surplus in SS off of the boomers so that when they retired there would be enough SS surplus taxes collected to pay their own retirement for a while.

So if your point is that Clinton used SS surpluses in the total budget AS ALL OTHER PRESIDENTS did BEFORE HIM to call it a balanced budget or a budget surplus, then the answer is YES, of course he did, BECAUSE this is how the Federal Budget is calculated.

As example, just as President Bush 2nd, calculated the budget with the SS surpluses in there...so when he showed a $500,000,000,000 (billion dollar) deficit in a year, it was truly more like a $750 billion dollar deficit....if you included the SS funds that were in surplus(and borrowed on)...BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT WAS SAID, when he was President...what was said, is precisely what was true, that he had a $500 billion dollar Budget Deficit such and such year....and the truth is that Clinton had a SURPLUS when calculating the Budget according to the RULES/Laws ON THE BOOKS.

You can't change the rules midstream just for Clinton... the rules are the rules, period. And these rules for how a Federal Budget is calculated should be consistent year after year in order to have a way to compare and analyze them, apples to apples, year after year, president after President, decade against decade etc...

Ah, politicians have always lied, so it makes what Clinton did truth when he lied because he is a politician and they lie. I'm convinced now. Not.

Do you even understand my point? I am starting do doubt it. If Clinton counted the money as surplus, then he can't say he saved it in a trust fund and there was no surplus. If he said it was an asset saved by social security, then he can't say there was a surplus, government borrowed the money. It's not that complicated. Even FooledByEveryone gets it. He's claiming government can double count the revenue, which is ridiculous, but at least that's a grasp of the point. You have not demonstrated a grasp of the point.

The correct answer by the way is there was a surplus and there is no trust fund. No money was saved. But my point is that liberals make both arguments, which are contradictory. I'm pointing out that contradiction.

Did you ever read or did you contribute to writing this:

Alan Greenspan, who was worth his weight in gold as an advisor to Reagan, came to the rescue. He pointed out that there was a way to get more revenue without touching the income tax cuts.

Greenspan told Reagan that they could raise payroll taxes, and say they were doing it to strengthen Social Security. Then they could use the surplus revenue just like income- tax revenue.

It was a clever plan.

The surplus Social Security revenue from the payroll-tax increase wouldn’t be needed to pay actual benefits for 30 more years. Why not just put the money in the general fund, for now, and let future presidents worry about replacing it.

It probably didn’t seem like such and evil deed to Reagan and Greenspan at the time. After all, they were only “borrowing” the money. Hopefully some future president would repay it.

But the real effect of their action was to take money from working baby boomers, in the form of increased payroll taxes, and give that money to some of the richest Americans in the form of big income tax cuts. The Looting of Social Security

add this: Ronald Reagan and The Great Social Security Heist FedSmith.com

Is Dante aware that kaz is a libertarian, not a Republican? Kaz also believes in what is so and doesn't defend politicians who are wrong when they are wrong. Reagan was wrong. He should not have done that. And Greenspan was no friend of liberty. The fed is a criminal organization which steals from the American people and Greenspan was it's don and ran it as the criminal empire that it is.

Greenspan was hailed as a libertarian until people like you threw him under the proverbial bus.

Your rant is as as it gets.

Greenspan hailed as a "libertarian?" Who said that? Authoritarian leftist liberals? That's insane, he wasn't libertarian at all.

Greenspan was one of Ayn Rand's original clique members. He even wrote a chapter for one of her books about capitalism. It discussed the advantages of the gold standard. However, when he became a power broker in the government his libertarian principles got flushed down the toilet. They are so inconvenient when you are grovelling before Congressman and Senators.

 

[rightwinger]

Name the GOPers voting against Dubya's 2 UNFUNDED tax cuts that the CBO said was 1/3rd of deficits 2001-2010?

The GOPers asking for a SOURCE of revenue for GOP's 'Medicare expansion', Part D?


How about the GOPer putting forward a bill to PAY FOR the 2 UNFUNDED wars, rather than put it on the credit card?

All the GOPers voted against obama libcommie care and the soviet stimulus!! And they all sign the pledge. Just little cooperation from Democrats and America could get back to being America again.

When Bush asked for stimulus money and TARP, Republicans were all too willing give him everything he asked for

Once Obama became President, they demanded austerity and voted against the same economic tools they gave to Bush

Who held the house and senate when the "economy" crashed ?

Who held the house and senate when Obama took over ?

Republicans ?

You are a fraud.

And an asshole.

That would assume they passed some legislation that crashed the economy.......what would that be?

Take your ADD meds......

We are talking about your assertion that Republicans were somehow "demanding" something when they were in the minority.

But...to your post....

How the fuck did you come up with that assumption ? You really think that congress can crash (or save) and economy ?

You totally duck the issue

It was Republicans who demanded austerity once Obama became President

Ever hear of the Tea Party?

 

[Listening]

All the GOPers voted against obama libcommie care and the soviet stimulus!! And they all sign the pledge. Just little cooperation from Democrats and America could get back to being America again.

When Bush asked for stimulus money and TARP, Republicans were all too willing give him everything he asked for

Once Obama became President, they demanded austerity and voted against the same economic tools they gave to Bush

Who held the house and senate when the "economy" crashed ?

Who held the house and senate when Obama took over ?

Republicans ?

You are a fraud.

And an asshole.

That would assume they passed some legislation that crashed the economy.......what would that be?

Take your ADD meds......

We are talking about your assertion that Republicans were somehow "demanding" something when they were in the minority.

But...to your post....

How the fuck did you come up with that assumption ? You really think that congress can crash (or save) and economy ?

You totally duck the issue

It was Republicans who demanded austerity once Obama became President

Ever hear of the Tea Party?

So did my grandmother, but she was not in congress.

Who owned the congress ?

Not the Republicans.

They also demaned that Obamacare get delayed....

How'd that work out for them ?

 

[rightwinger]

When Bush asked for stimulus money and TARP, Republicans were all too willing give him everything he asked for

Once Obama became President, they demanded austerity and voted against the same economic tools they gave to Bush

Who held the house and senate when the "economy" crashed ?

Who held the house and senate when Obama took over ?

Republicans ?

You are a fraud.

And an asshole.

That would assume they passed some legislation that crashed the economy.......what would that be?

Take your ADD meds......

We are talking about your assertion that Republicans were somehow "demanding" something when they were in the minority.

But...to your post....

How the fuck did you come up with that assumption ? You really think that congress can crash (or save) and economy ?

You totally duck the issue

It was Republicans who demanded austerity once Obama became President

Ever hear of the Tea Party?

So did my grandmother, but she was not in congress.

Who owned the congress ?

Not the Republicans.

They also demaned that Obamacare get delayed....

How'd that work out for them ?

Stop playing innocent

We know how Republicans blocked legislation

 

[Listening]

Who held the house and senate when the "economy" crashed ?

Who held the house and senate when Obama took over ?

Republicans ?

You are a fraud.

And an asshole.

That would assume they passed some legislation that crashed the economy.......what would that be?

Take your ADD meds......

We are talking about your assertion that Republicans were somehow "demanding" something when they were in the minority.

But...to your post....

How the fuck did you come up with that assumption ? You really think that congress can crash (or save) and economy ?

You totally duck the issue

It was Republicans who demanded austerity once Obama became President

Ever hear of the Tea Party?

So did my grandmother, but she was not in congress.

Who owned the congress ?

Not the Republicans.

They also demaned that Obamacare get delayed....

How'd that work out for them ?

Stop playing innocent

We know how Republicans blocked legislation

Like Obamacare ?

 

[rightwinger]

That would assume they passed some legislation that crashed the economy.......what would that be?

Take your ADD meds......

We are talking about your assertion that Republicans were somehow "demanding" something when they were in the minority.

But...to your post....

How the fuck did you come up with that assumption ? You really think that congress can crash (or save) and economy ?

You totally duck the issue

It was Republicans who demanded austerity once Obama became President

Ever hear of the Tea Party?

So did my grandmother, but she was not in congress.

Who owned the congress ?

Not the Republicans.

They also demaned that Obamacare get delayed....

How'd that work out for them ?

Stop playing innocent

We know how Republicans blocked legislation

Like Obamacare ?

Dems had 60 votes which lasted 6 months

How many filibusters since?

 

[Listening]

Take your ADD meds......

We are talking about your assertion that Republicans were somehow "demanding" something when they were in the minority.

But...to your post....

How the fuck did you come up with that assumption ? You really think that congress can crash (or save) and economy ?

You totally duck the issue

It was Republicans who demanded austerity once Obama became President

Ever hear of the Tea Party?

So did my grandmother, but she was not in congress.

Who owned the congress ?

Not the Republicans.

They also demaned that Obamacare get delayed....

How'd that work out for them ?

Stop playing innocent

We know how Republicans blocked legislation

Like Obamacare ?

Dems had 60 votes which lasted 6 months

How many filibusters since?

Who cares.

They owned the place. As in past tense....

Get over it.

 

[ScienceRocks]

i've come to the believe that the two extremes have different methods for one goal === Turning America into Somalia!

-Liberals want to destroy our laws and flood us with the third world. There goal makes more sense as they're importing savages to make it so.
-Conservative losertrians... These people aim to cause the same by simply defunding all of our science, infrastructure and r&d programs. These people aim to turn the current population into a pack of animals throughout a few generations.